LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 24 Mar 2016 17:23

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Thank you Deejay,

How about AD at these bases ? Old Pechoras on all bases ?

I am not updated on the latest on these but missiles are being upgraded. Earlier it was all Pechoras and OSA Aks. Iglas too.

Also, Awantipur has a UAV sqn as also Jaisalmer and Jammu.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 24 Mar 2016 17:23

http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radius/

This is the tool. What is the range of a S400 battery

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Mar 2016 17:49

Range of any surveillance or acquisition radar would depend upon a host of factors. Clear, unobstructed FOV for one. Nature of target is another. ECM environment and of course the profile of the aircraft being considered. A large, non-maneuvering aircraft flying at 20,000 feet is much easier to target at very long range, as opposed to a small, supersonic-capable, maneuvering fighter flying below 10,000 feet, and using ECM and terrain to complicate targeting. Provided that there is clear and unobstructed sensor fov access, the radar horizon for a target flying over friendly territory at say 5000-6000 feet is going to be between 150-180 or so Km. Range gets even shorter if an enemy fighter decides to fly a Low-Low ingress profile especially over its own territory and/or it decides to incorporate the natural topography to further obstruct the Air-Defense sensor. Targeting further complicates things as some of the long range interceptors deployed on the S300 and S400 use TVM/SAGG or a combination of the two.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 24 Mar 2016 19:18

^^^
you may want to temper your technical argument with topography of the battlespace being discussed. from munnawar-tawi south/south-east to chandigarh the outer himalayan ridgeline is chock-a-block with potential radar sites of elevations varying 8000'-15,000' amsl. this elevation range renders a radar range to horizon of 175-250 kms (aircraft taking off at sea level) - most of it being over packeeland (because of features like chicken's neck/shakargarh bulge and the shape of bist/bari doaba). similar situation exists for points on the aravallis overlooking cholistan down to arabian sea. the area being overlooked in both cases is flat as a pancake bar minor, sporadic features like kirana/tilla jogian.

strategically this ridgeline is to AEWC what andaman and nicobar islands are to ACs.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 24 Mar 2016 19:30

^^^ Yes, our radar sightings are excellent in the NW and Western areas. We have excellent coverage. But blind spots and other limitations mentioned by brar_w will hold at extended ranges.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Mar 2016 19:35

For High Value targets, LCA can ingress in defended airspace with One 1000 Pound LGB on center-line pylon, 2 WVR and Two 1200 litre fuel tanks, then my guess is that lo-lo-lo range would be 400-500km which would be good for most of the purposes against Pakistan. The issue is not whether LCA alone can fulfill the role of MMRCA but whether the "combination" of LCA and Su-30MKI can fulfill this role. We have estimated on this forum that cost of one Rafale is = 2 LCA + 1 Su-30MKI, so would this combination be adequate? The demand for Mirage 2000 arose in 1998-2001 as Su-30MKI was still developing/evolving and facing lot of problems. By 2005-6 these problems have been solved and thereafter the demand of MMRCA has been pushed for malafide reasons.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Mar 2016 19:53

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
shiv wrote:
Tejas with refuelling offers new possibilities. Take off with bigger load and low fuel, top up within India and execute a lo-lo-hi profile attack. That would give extended range. Mysteres have hit Sargodha in 1965
Sure but we have 6 refuellers and being of soviet vintage not all of them will be available. We can hit Sargodha out of Pathankot (275 km (centre line tank just about gets Sargodha). I was looking at most conservative scenarios in terms of range. Anything more is added flexibility and bonus.

True. But iirc, the su 30 can be used as a tanker as well, and we have 270 of those. A big rambha can carry 10+ tons of fuel so should be able to support a couple of tejas with with ease.

Speaking of which, I'm a bit surprised that considering the delays with the airbus tanker deal, the iaf had not invested in making the flanker more capable by adding efts to it ala the su35. It could easily carry another 5 fond of fuel

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Mar 2016 19:54

malushahi wrote:^^^
you may want to temper your technical argument with topography of the battlespace being discussed. from munnawar-tawi south/south-east to chandigarh the outer himalayan ridgeline is chock-a-block with potential radar sites of elevations varying 8000'-15,000' amsl. this elevation range renders a radar range to horizon of 175-250 kms (aircraft taking off at sea level) - most of it being over packeeland (because of features like chicken's neck/shakargarh bulge and the shape of bist/bari doaba). similar situation exists for points on the aravallis overlooking cholistan down to arabian sea. the area being overlooked in both cases is flat as a pancake bar minor, sporadic features like kirana/tilla jogian.

strategically this ridgeline is to AEWC what andaman and nicobar islands are to ACs.

Not familiar with he exact sites so avoided going into that point but technically the challenges associated with long range targeting are quite universal especially with the systems mentioned by Akshay and others.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 24 Mar 2016 20:03

brar_w wrote:Not familiar with he exact sites so avoided going into that point
...

no need to be familiar once it has been established that one has at least 100-250kms of unhindered, unencumbered ground-level LOS into the adversary's airspace. that advantage is not really universal, and as such cannot be held to universally held wisdom.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 24 Mar 2016 20:04

srai wrote:^^^

Well done AKM. Finally, we have lots of details on the LCA production activities. Looks like there are 6 jigs currently.

HAL on mission mode to ramp up Tejas production

Thanks AKM. Any update on IJT?

I won't be buying any mithai until I see 18 jigs together.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Mar 2016 20:11

^^ are the SPs from no. 2 onwards ioc or foc std. Are the derby, ifr and Cobham capabilities included?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Mar 2016 20:29

malushahi wrote:
brar_w wrote:Not familiar with he exact sites so avoided going into that point
...
no need to be familiar once it has been established that one has at least 100-250kms of unhindered, unencumbered ground-level LOS into the adversary's airspace. that advantage is not really universal, and as such cannot be held to universally held wisdom.

Again, I wasn't aware that the sites in question had those advantages given the post that I responded too. I also never claimed that the advantage is universal, only that the technical challenges are as in being radar-horizon limited, or TVM range limited (as in no LOR or other OTH targeting available to the interceptors in the system) as opposed to interceptor kinematics being the limiting factor.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 24 Mar 2016 20:36

http://idrw.org/hjt-36-intermediate-jet ... me-update/

...
During aggravation of control input testing, aircraft entered into a spin and recovered promptly in one turn, which indicated significant progress made by modified platform under its initial phase of spin trials. Similar behaviour was observed consistency in later flights too said the source.

...

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Mar 2016 22:03

Cain Marko wrote:^^ are the SPs from no. 2 onwards ioc or foc std. Are the derby, ifr and Cobham capabilities included?

Based on the article, SP3 and SP4 are structurally/component complete. So no IFR and Cobham on these. There is a possibility for IFR and Cobham cone on SP-5, SP-6 and SP7 since they are still at component level. SP8 is starting in a month so this one is probably definite (depending on how flight testing goes).

Derby is more of a software type of change. So that could be added anytime.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Mar 2016 22:17

AKM garu that is a great article, good to see HAL doing the right things and publicising the same. Wish this article went further mainstream into Zee news or India TV

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 Mar 2016 22:40

I apologize from the copyright point of view but this image needs to be published and republished everywhere.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 25 Mar 2016 00:24

Kakarat wrote:HAL on mission mode to ramp up Tejas production

So it seems that someone in HAL did read the constructive criticism it has been getting in this forum
Majority of employees are now working from morning 7 am to 9 pm, which General Manager V Sridharan terms it as a 'voluntary effort.'
The necessity to wipe out the image as a 'laid-back-PSU,' has been increasingly felt after the T Suvarna Raju took over the reins of HAL
"In the past we had issues. We have moved on and our actions will speak now."
Most modules getting outsourced As part of HAL's ramping up production plans, the wing modules have already been outsourced now. Tenders have been already floated inviting private vendors for manufacturing central, rear and front fuselages. "The fins, rudders and around 33 electrical panels have been outsourced. We want to become the prime integrator. We have already outsourced 52 LRUs," says an official.

So the criticism was definitely not agenda driven and good for HAL and Tejas program.
At least the acknowledgement and working to fix them. Now just start churning and continue quick upgrades. Though 100 by 2025 is still 2-3 years late

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2016 01:10

Once the program is re-baselined no point in harping about old milestones.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2016 01:13

@writetake, Can HAL hire more crew for round the clock assy shifts? This way they only need to order more parts and not more fixtures and assy areas.

Also do they have spare jigs to the six shown?

One extra jig for spare is program protection.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Mar 2016 03:57

^^^

The article mentions that a new assembly hanger is coming up by June 2016 as part of the original plan. Since HAL's original target and budget was set at max of 12 units/year and first assembly hanger housing 6 Jigs, one can assume the second assembly hanger will have 6 more Jigs. That would bring it to 12 Jigs all full by sometime next year.

As far as expansion to 16/year goes, it is undergoing a governmental approval process. This new assembly hanger would also likely be another 6 Jigs capacity. In all the assembly hangers, there may be some extra growth capacity for couple of more Jigs (i.e. possibly up to 8 Jigs if other non-assembly usage of floor space can be reduced).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2016 04:53

Thanks, June 2016 is just round the corner!!!!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Mar 2016 05:01

An idea that was conveyed to ADA back about around 2009 or so: use the car companies to set up the production line, esp. with the composite shell. They are expert at slashing mass-production costs, and IAF sure can use a mass fleet of these.

Shanu · Post by **Shanu** » 25 Mar 2016 08:50

dhiraj wrote: Though 100 by 2025 is still 2-3 years late

Sirji, the quote from the HAL official talks about 100 Mk1A by 2025. Since the lot of first 40 LCAs are supposed to be just Mk1 variety, the actual number of IAF LCAs would be 140 by 2025, provided they manage to stick to the timelines. The next critical bottleneck appears to be the Mk1A prototype scheduled to be in air by 2017-18 period. Still unsure if HAL can pull it off.

And, of course, there are Naval LCAs Mk2s also in the pipeline.

member_28386 · Post by **member_28386** » 25 Mar 2016 09:57

And how about another 100 odd Supersonic LIFT Aircraft derivatives of the LCA Airforce Trainer Mk1 which as stated in the official ADA Brochure would have FOC by December 2015. Low Hanging Fruit to be targeted both for Stage 3 Training for Indian Air Force and exports too. With some luck and hard work they might even be equipped with Kaveri engines.

Of course HAL was already too late with the HTT-40 for Stage 1 Basic and HJT-36 Sitara Jet Trainer for Stage 2 or else today India or HAL would be offering in the overseas market 3 Type Trainers for all three Stages of training. It is a criminal lack of planning really as both the HPT-32 and Kiran Jet Trainers were getting too old and in need of replacement obviously and the replacements were obvious. Instead we ended up with the Pilatus and Hawk.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 25 Mar 2016 09:59

We had around 300+ Mig-21's in service. So surely going forward one can see MK-II and even MK-III variants and other derivatives and around 300-400 Tejas in various forms.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 26 Mar 2016 15:08

100 LCA MK1A till 2025 means peak production rate of 16 LCA/year for the IAF.

IN when it orders LCA in numbers will mean additional line of 8 LCA/year for the IN and the total will go up to 24 LCA/year.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 Mar 2016 20:15

Considering that LCA offers great flexibility (practically infinite) to leverage the platform, it will be strange if the Govt will be unable to find space for LCA in numbers. If, in future, there is a scope for role as buddy-refuel only to extend range and flexibility of ops - just with available set up, will it be possible to try such combinations? The idea of shifts seems good for bean counting but how perfect was such an experience during development phase till now for prototypes. Such bean counting adds nothing to convenience especially if production is ongoing.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 28 Mar 2016 14:41

LCA pic with middle fuel tank from #DefExpo

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 4424997889

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 28 Mar 2016 14:49

KBDagha wrote:LCA pic with middle fuel tank from #DefExpo

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 4424997889

Its LCA Navy NP-1

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Mar 2016 23:44

UlanBatori wrote:An idea that was conveyed to ADA back about around 2009 or so: use the car companies to set up the production line, esp. with the composite shell. They are expert at slashing mass-production costs, and IAF sure can use a mass fleet of these.

the production philosophy, safety standards and quality compliance techniques in aerospace and automobile sectors are very different, even though the end requirement of defect free product is the same. one is low volume / high cost and the other is high volume / low cost.

ISO/TS 16949 is the globally recognized quality management standard for the automotive industry as is AS 9100 for the aerospace industry. Indian aero PSUs and automobile companies follow them in India too.

what is being suggested has not been done anywhere in the world.

except Honda, Saab, give or take, there are no car companies making aircraft. Honda and SAAB have no connection whatsoever between their car and aerospace companies.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Mar 2016 02:07

Kakarat wrote:
KBDagha wrote:LCA pic with middle fuel tank from #DefExpo

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 4424997889
Its LCA Navy NP-1

How did you pick that up that it was Navy.... sorry untrained eye question
I just want to know how did you pick up the Navy Features ... the guy on twitter seems to suggest the same thing

However the nose did not look as curvy to my eye ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2016 04:03

I can confirm.new Tejas buildings are nearing completion next to.old....right upto the end of hal property on marathalli side. Also the signs proclaiming the role of each bldg like final assembly seem to be painted over.
But location next to a busy road and direct Los from.bus or truck is not good. They need to raise a 20 feet wall there topped with watchtowers.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Mar 2016 04:04

^^^

Bulge on the main landing gear is one give away.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Mar 2016 06:54

Khalsa wrote:...

How did you pick that up that it was Navy.... sorry untrained eye question
I just want to know how did you pick up the Navy Features ... the guy on twitter seems to suggest the same thing

However the nose did not look as curvy to my eye ...

One of the pics has a clearer view of the rudder section which as of now has a 'chequered flag' like colouring (White squares on dark background).

BTW, NP2 also flew / has been flying off late (as far as my eyes could tell

) but in Bangalore and not in Goa. Lots of LCAs flying from HAL airport.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 29 Mar 2016 08:05

LEVCONs, look for them on NLCA.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Mar 2016 08:15

Singha wrote:I can confirm.new Tejas buildings are nearing completion next to.old....right upto the end of hal property on marathalli side. Also the signs proclaiming the role of each bldg like final assembly seem to be painted over.
But location next to a busy road and direct Los from.bus or truck is not good. They need to raise a 20 feet wall there topped with watchtowers.

the fence is electrified

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Mar 2016 09:22

UlanBatori wrote:An idea that was conveyed to ADA back about around 2009 or so: use the car companies to set up the production line, esp. with the composite shell. They are expert at slashing mass-production costs, and IAF sure can use a mass fleet of these.

Sure the auto industry brought about the hyper productivity of Aero industry during WW2 for the US. But its not just the same today and not for India. For one, today the Aero mfg is orders of magnitude tougher than the auto mfg. Even the nuts and bolts used for aero application are specifically made and not just used of the shelf. And second we are not mass manufacturing LCA. 100-200 pieces is too less to use typical mass manufacturing methods to reduce costs. Surely some of the elements can be used from auto industry, but IMHO they cannot do it any better than HAL can with proper push from GoI. Auto industry surely can take up mfg in things like Arjun/Dhanush et al.

member_28437 · Post by **member_28437** » 29 Mar 2016 10:31

One could very well make the opposite case, that the standards in auto industry are higher than in the aerospace industry. Think of the
lowly Maruti 800. It has to last 10-20 years with minimal maintenance, with no fuel quality control, no sheltered storage and driven
by mostly unqualified drivers ! The point is we do not acknowledge the reliability that auto components exhibit. If you
think of newer standards like ISO26262 (for sw and reliability) and the fact that safety critical systems in cars are approaching
aerospace levels, there is a case to be made for using auto components in aerospace.

IIT in fact is advocating using the same standards like ISO26262 and space grade SRIO interconnects in the auto and aerospace sector.
I frankly feel the distinction is arbitrary. My ABS better be as reliable as the fly by wire in the jet I fly in. There is no earthly reason
why they should have different reliability standards and no reason why aerospace grade systems should be expensive.

Time to a rethink on this issue.

nileshjr wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:An idea that was conveyed to ADA back about around 2009 or so: use the car companies to set up the production line, esp. with the composite shell. They are expert at slashing mass-production costs, and IAF sure can use a mass fleet of these.
Sure the auto industry brought about the hyper productivity of Aero industry during WW2 for the US. But its not just the same today and not for India. For one, today the Aero mfg is orders of magnitude tougher than the auto mfg. Even the nuts and bolts used for aero application are specifically made and not just used of the shelf. And second we are not mass manufacturing LCA. 100-200 pieces is too less to use typical mass manufacturing methods to reduce costs. Surely some of the elements can be used from auto industry, but IMHO they cannot do it any better than HAL can with proper push from GoI. Auto industry surely can take up mfg in things like Arjun/Dhanush et al.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 29 Mar 2016 10:33

chetak wrote: the production philosophy, safety standards and quality compliance techniques in aerospace and automobile sectors are very different, even though the end requirement of defect free product is the same. one is low volume / high cost and the other is high volume / low cost.

ISO/TS 16949 is the globally recognized quality management standard for the automotive industry as is AS 9100 for the aerospace industry. Indian aero PSUs and automobile companies follow them in India too.

what is being suggested has not been done anywhere in the world.

except Honda, Saab, give or take, there are no car companies making aircraft. Honda and SAAB have no connection whatsoever between their car and aerospace companies.

Actually there are a few more car companies with aero interests (not all are current): Rolls Royce (aircraft engines), Mitsubishi (WW-II zero!), BMW (hell, their logo is a propeller), Ford (now spun off as Ford Aerospace. They used to make the Ford Trimotor a long while ago), Volvo Aero (used to supply engines to Swedish air force, they got sold to some other company in 2012), Porsche (used to supply engines to Mooney aircraft in the 1980s, allegedly a modified version of the flat-6 that they put in their 911s), Fiat (at least until the 50s), Grumman (they still make fire-engines, post office and UPS trucks), BF Goodrich (they not only made tires, but they also made lots of aerospace components, until United Technologies bought them in 2012) etc.

Of course, these are large primary manufacturers, but there are also smaller secondary component manufacturers, who also tend to be somewhat diversified (at least in the US). For instance, it is very common for many second-tier manufacturers in the US to make precision aircraft parts as well as medical equipment. Other common side businesses are making power generation equipment or parts for oil and gas industry. Aerospace is one of those industries where demand fluctuates a lot and therefore, these smaller companies have to rely on other sources of revenue that need high precision manufacturing and have much more steady demand.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Mar 2016 12:50

ah Thank you all kind Saars.