LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 19 Feb 2016 13:01

Sorry for whining ...

When all things are going in the right direction for LCA but except one, - I don't see HAL deliver SP2-4 in the financial year 2015-16. It is disappointing performance of HAL. I hope at least they can delivery SP2 in this financial year so that they can meet 50% of their delivery target. IAF can expect at least SP3-8 (75% of their target) for next 2016-17 and 100% by 2017-18.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Feb 2016 17:37

Rohit. Add the f16 offer to the mix.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 19 Feb 2016 18:34

rohit, both Rafale and PAKFAs are place holders. there is an extensive DDoS attack regime inland to prevent mighty projects to happen, aided by international criminal setup. /sorry for the OT

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Will » 19 Feb 2016 22:20

Why oh why don't they let the private sector open a second assembly line for the LCA. For all the shouting , what it finally all boils down to is the govt sector always getting priority and this as usual brings about endless delays.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_29245 » 20 Feb 2016 00:29

Will wrote:Why oh why don't they let the private sector open a second assembly line for the LCA. For all the shouting , what it finally all boils down to is the govt sector always getting priority and this as usual brings about endless delays.


Where are the orders to support another pvt sector line ?

If there are more orders even HAL can ramp up

The 100+ orders are for lca mk1a which itself is 2 years away

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Shreeman » 20 Feb 2016 00:50

I dont think you understand. The private line wont make LCAs. It/they will "make" furrin models.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2016 00:58

the more IAF exercise Tejas capabilities, the more they will order. this is our own puppy, why would you think they will not order? they are only like show me an advanced fighter yesterday/year/at least now mode.

once a deal is established, the PLM and delivery cycle will speak volumes. bottom, just focus and delivery to quality. rest is magic!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 20 Feb 2016 05:52

Will wrote:Why oh why don't they let the private sector open a second assembly line for the LCA. For all the shouting , what it finally all boils down to is the govt sector always getting priority and this as usual brings about endless delays.

It is the same old problem. The private sector does not have the technological base, tooling and manpower that the government sector has. It's not as if HAL can simply shift a spare assembly line to a private player's shed. I think the complexity of manufacturing a combat aircraft is under-appreciated. Rockets in fact are easier.

Starting a private sector assembly line may simply be costlier and take longer not least because even land acquisition for factories takes time and money and the govt already has the spare land and often the tooling and the factory floor space.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 20 Feb 2016 06:26

could not the pvt parties be able to lease land, etc from Gov?

I mean, this thing could go on for a few gens (of people I mean). Does India want to solve problems or go in circles? Such problems are not unique to India.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 20 Feb 2016 06:33

So my dream (nightmare) is coming true. 36 Raffy plus 36 F16 plus maybe 36 f18. Maybe we could ground the 300 MKIs to keep spares of all these new types

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 20 Feb 2016 06:37

NRao wrote:could not the pvt parties be able to lease land, etc from Gov?

Definitely. I don't doubt that. I quoted land as typical example of where cost and delays start. Some private players may already have the required land.

But when I look at how a private player might think (profitability) - a second LCA line may not cut it. Components for the LCA and a broader aerospace industry seems to me to be a more likely option.

My personal guess is that it is best to involve private industry in a totally new venture that does not depend on government factories for its survival but has a "life of its own". Certainly helos and small to medium transport aircraft seem to me the way to go. And yes a totally new assembly line of say Gripens or F-16s for export would be a good idea. Whether the IAF buys them or not is a different question - they could be for export alone. But that would allow private industry to set up an assembly line and train and develop a body of skilled workers. HAL could be a supplier of parts to such an industry given its broad based skills.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2016 07:05

The way US did was build a factory and lease it to private industry to run it. Eventually the private industry got design bureaus. However after end of Cold war the number reduced due to scale. I don't know how economic to set up second lca line with paltry orders.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 20 Feb 2016 08:30

Missed discussion for a few days -

What we need to create is an equivalent of US Air National Gaurd with 500 LCA Mk1/2. Fully Desi from birth 8)

500 in 5 years at 100 air-frames per year will give enough ammo to straighten out HAL

Enough deterrence from our neighborhood mad dogs and for-rent pigs.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2016 10:31

Vivek, the best way to make dreams come true is to wake up! :twisted:

People should realize private in desh is not like private elsewhere. If they catch up none shall prevent them waking up.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 20 Feb 2016 10:39

ramana wrote:The way US did was build a factory and lease it to private industry to run it. Eventually the private industry got design bureaus. However after end of Cold war the number reduced due to scale. I don't know how economic to set up second lca line with paltry orders.


Current approach being taken in India is a right one IMO since the aerospace industry is still very young. Current goal is to expand Tier-1 - 3 aerospace manufacturers and suppliers. They would then be able to partner for offsets/FDI and compete internationally as well.

Team LCA gears up for increased orders

...

Sources in HAL said given the Centre's Make in India campaign and to save on time, outsourcing some manufacturing has happened and a few other projects are in the pipeline. The wing assembly has been outsourced to L&T, while 10 vendors will be in the fray for the centre and rear fuselage, for which tenders will be floated soon. "Outsourcing of 33 electrical panels, six mechanical assembly projects making of fin and rudder, etc is under way," they said.

...


Similar to the European model:
Image

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 20 Feb 2016 10:44

nik wrote:Missed discussion for a few days -

What we need to create is an equivalent of US Air National Gaurd with 500 LCA Mk1/2. Fully Desi from birth 8)

500 in 5 years at 100 air-frames per year will give enough ammo to straighten out HAL

Enough deterrence from our neighborhood mad dogs and for-rent pigs.

As I said earlier in this thread, I am opposed to such an idea because it reduces the Tejas to an air defence fighter simply buzzing over Indian airspace waiting for others to come. It takes no account of the Tejas' offensive capability to take the battle into enemy territory and destroy their ability to send fighters into India, which is a better war strategy. It will also eat up enough IAF resources to curtail our offensive capability.

Also, if enemy air forces realize that there are swarms Tejas waiting for them they will simply use other offensive weapons like missiles to batter our air defences and open up our airspace. We do nt have the American luxury of being separated from enemies by 5000 miles of ocean so copy pasting Amriki concepts is not necessarily correct.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 20 Feb 2016 10:54

What we need to create is an equivalent of US Air National Gaurd with 500 LCA Mk1/2. Fully Desi from birth 8)


Errrrr......

National Guard in the US is the state militia of each State, under the command of that State's governor.

When the US Prez asks for any of them, they then become - for that duration - part of the USAF or the Army or Navy.

Does India have the concept of state militia?

It takes no account of the Tejas' offensive capability to take the battle into enemy


NG has all components, offensive too.

They are very similar to the national services, but are considered to be reserves and are under their own national command structure.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 20 Feb 2016 11:43

Tejas is a multirole fighter in true sense. From the way we are equipping it, it is clear that the planners are pushing the envelope in terms of attacking options and not just in aerodynamics.

The BVRs, AESA, air to air refueling, etc are choices and indicators as to what the IAF and also IN see the aircraft doing in times of conflict. If the LCA was restricted to CAP with WVR capabilities, it would be a defensive option but by now it is clear it is an offensive option too.

If the weapons package and AESA package deliver the results expected, within its range limits, a Tejas is not a small hammer. This frees up assets with longer legs for the Eastern front. (just my take)

While 500 LCAs serving at once is a stretch, I would not discount 200 LCAs in service at some time. I see this more out of peacetime necessities than war time requirements.

We have ~300, 02 seater Su 30s, about a 100 Mig 29s and Mirages plus some Jaguars definitely till 2030. That is at least a pool of ~750 pilots/WSOs on twin engined platforms all with requisite training.

The LCA Mk1A will have AESA, air to air refueling, BVR, RWR and some degree of networking. It is a multirole and single engined platform. Pilots post AJT training will at some point train on all these roles. It is better to train them on a single engine aircraft than to train them on twin engined aircraft in these roles.

If I may approximate, 50 fighter pilots graduate every 06 months from AFA, which means a 100 new fighter pilots per annum to train in these roles which will be quite a challenge to fit in only 120 Mk1 std LCAs. Pilots will be sent very early to twin engined platforms if this be the case.

It will be far more economical and sensible to keep all pilots on single engined platforms till about 04-06 yrs of experience before graduating them to the twins. If we do not have adequate single engines, the cost of making a pilot fully ops will increase.

Without actually knowing the exact costs, per hour operating cost differential between Su 30s and LCA Mk1A will be fairly large. This is without looking at the cost of actual asset itself.

My arm chair views only.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Shreeman » 20 Feb 2016 12:16

If I may take a HUGE libery; the training of pilots for furrin aircraft often involving teaching them russian or french; losing them to crashes or private airlines is a huge cost to the taxpayer. For imported aircraft, aircrew should also be imported and included in the lifecycle cost. After all, many other countries eg gelf do it, and maintenance work is all guaranteed/performed by OEM. What is the point of rediscovering the wheel? What is so special about pilots vs maintenance airmen? Or raw materials or LRUs or the whole plane? Pilots have been invented by the west, they ought to be imported, contracted for the life of the aircraft and customized by teaching them indian languahes, procedures. You get best trained men(Harvard educated!), and huge savings of not needing training aircraft, trainers, no pensions and no widows on home soil unless war is declared. Doctors, engineers are all imported, exported. Civil pilots too. Its time the services moved on to lean and modern fighting concepts.

Indian pilots fly indian craft only.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 20 Feb 2016 13:07

Shreeman ji, I am not sure I understood exactly what you said but I do not see what is the problem if a pilot can do his initial air to air refueling, AESA radar ops and similar training on the LCA. Type training with associated avionics operations plus further training will continue on the platforms that pilots graduate to.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2016 14:19

srai wrote:
ramana wrote:The way US did was build a factory and lease it to private industry to run it. Eventually the private industry got design bureaus. However after end of Cold war the number reduced due to scale. I don't know how economic to set up second lca line with paltry orders.


Current approach being taken in India is a right one IMO since the aerospace industry is still very young. Current goal is to expand Tier-1 - 3 aerospace manufacturers and suppliers. They would then be able to partner for offsets/FDI and compete internationally as well.

Team LCA gears up for increased orders

...

Sources in HAL said given the Centre's Make in India campaign and to save on time, outsourcing some manufacturing has happened and a few other projects are in the pipeline. The wing assembly has been outsourced to L&T, while 10 vendors will be in the fray for the centre and rear fuselage, for which tenders will be floated soon. "Outsourcing of 33 electrical panels, six mechanical assembly projects making of fin and rudder, etc is under way," they said.

...


Similar to the European model:
Image


Thats happening in Su30 too. Dynamatics majes a good chunk of the airframe. Alpha makes some parts too. Actuators come from another pvt firm. Samtels displays etc...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 20 Feb 2016 14:21

Does LCA have range shorter or longer than Mig-21s? So how is it considered to be short legged?

As per Chaiwala, normal warload on LCA will be around 1500-2000kg, so with external fuel tanks, its combat radii would be "atleast" 400-600km, depending on flight profile.
Last edited by Gyan on 20 Feb 2016 14:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rohiths » 20 Feb 2016 14:38

The range would be higher than Mig 21 since LCA uses a much more advanced engine and can carry more payload. Combat radius of 400-600km is an understatement primarily used to run down the LCA program. Comparable less advanced aircraft have a much higher range that what is mentioned for LCA

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 20 Feb 2016 14:42

LCA range would be more than Mig-21, 23, 27 and non-upgraded Mig-29s. It would be near Mirage 2000.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 20 Feb 2016 15:01

HAL also outsources lots of parts to small and medium industries. To increase the production rate, HAL might have to fund some of the companies up front, like what big companies like Boeing/Airbus do to their suppliers. Supply chain management is not easy. However, given the big order of around 100+ LCAs should help the other small companies to do a decent run of components

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2016 15:44


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rohitvats » 20 Feb 2016 19:24

When people look at deployment possibilities and strength, do look at the infrastructure angle as well. Both on eastern and western front.

While Tejas has evolved into a true multi-role platform, IMO, it will be the first line of air defense on most of the western border from Srinagar in north to Naliya in Gujarat.

Just look at the airfield from north to south-west which are the first line against aggression from west:

Srinagar, Udhampur, Pathankot, Adampur, Halwara, Bhisiana/Bhatinda, Sirsa, Suratgarh, Nal/Bikaner, Phalodi (no fighters at present IIRC), Jaislamer, Uttarlai/Barmer, Naliya and Bhuj. And there has been news about a base in Central Gujarat. That is 14 operational bases in total.

Most of these bases will require a full Tejas squadron to provide the AD cover in the sector - and will be backed-up by either larger a/c based on the same the same Base (permanently or moving here during period of tension) or from ones situated in depth. Plus, given the multi-role capability of the fighter, it will also provide the CAS/IDS cover to the sector.

Similarly, looking at the eastern sector, I see Tejas taking care of CAP duties over the base and CAS for troops. While larger birds deal with Chinese targets across the Himalayas.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2016 19:53

Vendors must have tight security policy and and governance to ensure secrecy on IPRs.

What is the MTBS? The range potentially enlarges on deep strike ops with mid-air refuelling

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 20 Feb 2016 19:59

eastern and central sector would be atleast hashimara, bagdogra(2), guwahati, tezpur(2), chabua - room for atleast 7 squadrons.

400+ airframes needed right there when you add western front needs.

throw in some more for the central sector like gorakhpur and rae bareilly

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Shreeman » 20 Feb 2016 20:04

deejay wrote:Shreeman ji, I am not sure I understood exactly what you said but I do not see what is the problem if a pilot can do his initial air to air refueling, AESA radar ops and similar training on the LCA. Type training with associated avionics operations plus further training will continue on the platforms that pilots graduate to.

deejay,

My comments, such as they were, werent responding to your post. Only a response to import-only force structure. Train on hawks and pc7s? might as well get some swiss and ukistanis for flying thrm just as the guys polishing them. OT for this thread, and not worth upsetting people on second thoughts.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2016 20:06

We need a Mk2 with more fuel. IAF disinterest while being ok with Gripen in MMRCA is bewildering. And no, Mk2 can be derived from Mk1A and won't stop AMCA.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2016 20:09

^only our maha vishnu @ndtv can answer you that. First hand info is always a dhammaka news for all :)

---

BTW it makes sense to combine few common LRUs between Mk2 and AMCA. Hint: Christopher ji saying Mk2 only by 2024

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby fanne » 20 Feb 2016 20:41

I think, if we go to 57 Fighter sq strength (the real numbers that IAF needs per IAF's own study), that's 1114 planes. While SU30MKI (400 eventual numbers), Mirages and Mig 29 s(110 total) and Jaguars (120 total, long tooth) make up only 630 planes, leaving 500 to be acquired. While any MMCRA can contribute 150 (which I doubt given the high price), we will still need 350 LCAs at least. If you count 120 Jags getting replaced, this number can only go up. 500 LCAs will take 20 years to be produced, seeing mk2 through mk 4 or 5 variants, each new one more capable than the old, at some point surpassing Mig29/mirage200 by a long margin.
I hope we have enough design strength to have another group working on AMCA.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 20 Feb 2016 21:13

fanne wrote:I think, if we go to 57 Fighter sq strength (the real numbers that IAF needs per IAF's own study), that's 1114 planes. While SU30MKI (400 eventual numbers), Mirages and Mig 29 s(110 total) and Jaguars (120 total, long tooth) make up only 630 planes, leaving 500 to be acquired. While any MMCRA can contribute 150 (which I doubt given the high price), we will still need 350 LCAs at least. If you count 120 Jags getting replaced, this number can only go up. 500 LCAs will take 20 years to be produced, seeing mk2 through mk 4 or 5 variants, each new one more capable than the old, at some point surpassing Mig29/mirage200 by a long margin.
I hope we have enough design strength to have another group working on AMCA.


Final fighter numbers a reflection of a country's military ambition. With a defensive mind set one requires a different force structure that what will be required if the planning is offensive.

In other words, sqn numbers are a reflection of the reason why they were forecast. Change that reason and a different final number will be required. It is not an iron clad number.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Suresh S » 20 Feb 2016 21:32

Agree with deejay. That is the critical thing, the mindset.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2016 22:03

fanne number 57 squadrons is based on which planes? And when?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby fanne » 20 Feb 2016 22:09

That paper by IAF is linked in BRF somewhere. I read it here before and then later found it here while searching. I will look again. Someone had posted and that person has the original copy. It is an IAF study. It is in word document and of professional quality befitting IAF

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Feb 2016 22:45

Karan M wrote:We need a Mk2 with more fuel. IAF disinterest while being ok with Gripen in MMRCA is bewildering. And no, Mk2 can be derived from Mk1A and won't stop AMCA.


I think the mrca contestants were more a result of political and mod machinations than iaf choice. As far as the grpen is concerned, it will have a tough chance now with 120 lcas already on order.especially if the shornet comes through as a second mrca

Jmtp

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_29245 » 20 Feb 2016 23:24

rohitvats wrote:When people look at deployment possibilities and strength, do look at the infrastructure angle as well. Both on eastern and western front.

While Tejas has evolved into a true multi-role platform, IMO, it will be the first line of air defense on most of the western border from Srinagar in north to Naliya in Gujarat.

Just look at the airfield from north to south-west which are the first line against aggression from west:

Srinagar, Udhampur, Pathankot, Adampur, Halwara, Bhisiana/Bhatinda, Sirsa, Suratgarh, Nal/Bikaner, Phalodi (no fighters at present IIRC), Jaislamer, Uttarlai/Barmer, Naliya and Bhuj. And there has been news about a base in Central Gujarat. That is 14 operational bases in total.

Most of these bases will require a full Tejas squadron to provide the AD cover in the sector - and will be backed-up by either larger a/c based on the same the same Base (permanently or moving here during period of tension) or from ones situated in depth. Plus, given the multi-role capability of the fighter, it will also provide the CAS/IDS cover to the sector.

Similarly, looking at the eastern sector, I see Tejas taking care of CAP duties over the base and CAS for troops. While larger birds deal with Chinese targets across the Himalayas.


There is jamnagar Baroda and keshod / junagadh and south western command in gandhinagar

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_29245 » 20 Feb 2016 23:28

Singha wrote:eastern and central sector would be atleast hashimara, bagdogra(2), guwahati, tezpur(2), chabua - room for atleast 7 squadrons.

400+ airframes needed right there when you add western front needs.

throw in some more for the central sector like gorakhpur and rae bareilly


Throw in 8 more sqdns

3 at Andaman
1 kolkatta
1 in odisha
1 in chennai
1/2 in lakshadweep
1 in seabird and
1 at new naval base in east coast
That's 180- 200/ more


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