LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Mar 2016 22:35

prasannasimha wrote:SP1 during preflight checkup

✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈ ‏@writetake 10h10 hours ago
Here's the #Tejas SP-1 captured at one of the #HALfacilities undergoing routine checks ahead of its flight.


Image



Oh my god ..... never seen a more beautiful plane than this.
Can you get us a bigger picture ?

Drop Dead Gorgeous !!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Mar 2016 22:36

Cosmo_R wrote:
Khalsa wrote:CosMo_R

do you mean they are giving us a run for our money by over complicating their inventory (just like us) or you mean they could match us ?
They seem to be ordering everyhting under the sun

F16,
Raffy
and now Mig-35/29M3


Exactly. But at least they move quickly.


Nailed !!
First of their Raffys have been delivered .... Sad huh ... oh well

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 15 Mar 2016 04:15

Khalsa wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:SP1 during preflight checkup

✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈ ‏@writetake 10h10 hours ago
Here's the #Tejas SP-1 captured at one of the #HALfacilities undergoing routine checks ahead of its flight.


Oh my god ..... never seen a more beautiful plane than this.
Can you get us a bigger picture ?

Drop Dead Gorgeous !!

Image

Source: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/708837571711795202

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nash » 15 Mar 2016 19:09

India to double production of LCA Tejas

New Delhi, March 15: A proposal for doubling the production of indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is being processed, and around Rs.1,259 crore will be spent for the purpose, the government said on Tuesday. In a written reply in the Rajya Sabha, Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh said a proposal of the Cabinet Committee on Security for ramping up of production of LCA from the present installed capacity of 8-16 aircraft per annum by HAL was being processed.

"An expenditure of Rs.1,259 crore has been proposed for this purpose with 50 percent funding by HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited), 25 percent by IAF (Indian Air Force) and 25 percent by Indian Navy," the minister said. The timeline for this will be 36 months from the date of sanction. The minister said a case for additional 80 LCA with four essential capabilities -- Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles, Air to Air Refuelling (AAR) capability and Electronic Warfare (EW) suite in the upgraded version LCA Mk 1A -- was being also progressed for placing orders.

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/india-dou ... 41815.html

Are these 80s in addition with 100+ which already ordered

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 15 Mar 2016 19:21

^^^

It seems the total numbers haven't changed after all.

  • 20 Mk.1 IOC-2 (under production until 2018)
  • 20 Mk.1 FOC (already approved; awaiting FOC certification)
  • 80 Mk.1A (awaiting approval; originally planned as Mk.2)
Total: 120 LCAs

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby arshyam » 15 Mar 2016 21:09

Why would they do this for just 120 units?
ramping up of production of LCA from the present installed capacity of 8-16 aircraft per annum by HAL was being processed.

16-32 p.a. for 120 units means only 4-6 years of production, makes no sense. There's more cooking for sure.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 15 Mar 2016 23:44

GoI and HAL are still only "talking" about enhancing Capacity from 8 to 16. Note HAL per CAG report still does not have capacity to produce 8.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 16 Mar 2016 00:05

^ Pls check the ministers reply in Rajya sabha. The work needed for another line for 8 making it a total of 16/yr has commenced with a timeframe of 36 months.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 16 Mar 2016 02:58

Gyan wrote:GoI and HAL are still only "talking" about enhancing Capacity from 8 to 16. Note HAL per CAG report still does not have capacity to produce 8.


The current assembly line has max capacity of around 8 (maybe up to 12--original plan was for this output/year). This hasn't been fully utilized as yet since the production is just about to ramp up from 4 after quality stabilization. But to increase to 16/year, that requires a new assembly line with additional floor space to handle another 8 units.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 16 Mar 2016 03:47

arshyam wrote:Why would they do this for just 120 units?
ramping up of production of LCA from the present installed capacity of 8-16 aircraft per annum by HAL was being processed.

16-32 p.a. for 120 units means only 4-6 years of production, makes no sense. There's more cooking for sure.


That's really the core issue in India. Firm orders (and lack of future intent) are not in enough quantity to justify increase in production capacity. How will production be sustained over years (even decades) until another product comes online? Case in example is Arjun MBT. Order of pittance numbers (124) have lead to more than 3-years of production standstill between Mk.1 and Mk.2 variants, and future order of only 118 Mk.2 doesn't indicate a paradigm shift. Concepts of RoI (i.e. profitability) and production lead-times are not understood by the end-users (i.e. if you order something today, you won't begin to receive it for another 2 or 3 years and it will take time to ramp up). Long-term viability of indigenous MIC is questionable when there will be significant amount of downtime in production-related activities, destroying the hard and long formation of a supply ecosystem.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vera_k » 16 Mar 2016 06:35

srai wrote:But to increase to 16/year, that requires a new assembly line with additional floor space to handle another 8 units.


Why? It should only need running another shift...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby kvraghav » 16 Mar 2016 07:53

vera_k wrote:
srai wrote:But to increase to 16/year, that requires a new assembly line with additional floor space to handle another 8 units.


Why? It should only need running another shift...

Since aircraft are assembled on Jigs, they would need a second line to even support extra shifts.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_20292 » 16 Mar 2016 09:17

^

Why does one need an extra line to increase the output of the main LCA assembly line?

Lets assume there are 8 jigs and 8 LCAs being assembled .

First shift is 8 hours - and now there are two more 8 hour shifts to make the rate of work increase.

More assembly lines are not needed. Better management of existing 8 jigs, and feeding of the sub assembly parts , scheduling, management is what is required.

I have seen a few small factories being run beautifully and large factories being run poorly. Usually the small, high quality firms win in the long term.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 16 Mar 2016 10:40

^^ Wish it was that simple.

PSU Labour works only during overtime. No Work happens during normal working hours. Normal working hours are time for school kids to be dropped off & picked up, groceries purchased, etc.

Following is the report filed in Parliament http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=95280

HAL is the leader in overtime.

And analysis of that parliamentary report here

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 055_1.html

Despite the low productivity, the DPSUs pay out a significant amount as overtime.

Some more http://www.business-standard.com/conten ... 013_03.pdf

Added Later - Hindustan Aeronautics Mazdoor Sangh is part of BJP's Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh which is the largest labour union is India http://www.livemint.com/Politics/ohkSVk ... India.html
Last edited by tsarkar on 16 Mar 2016 10:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Mar 2016 10:49

srai wrote:^^^

It seems the total numbers haven't changed after all.

  • 20 Mk.1 IOC-2 (under production until 2018)
  • 20 Mk.1 FOC (already approved; awaiting FOC certification)
  • 80 Mk.1A (awaiting approval; originally planned as Mk.2)
Total: 120 LCAs


Could it be....

~40 Mk.1 FOC (already approved; awaiting FOC certification). I don't see any IOC 2s being produced...
~100 MkA

Total 140. Remember Parrikar did say 8 sqds...120 LCAs would be too few.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Shreeman » 16 Mar 2016 11:06

All things being as they are, and even if they werent, you do need quite bit more space and jigs to run any reasonable assembly. Thats not an efficiency thing nor would two shifts cure part manufacturing, scheduling, delivery of outsourced items, or integration time. Only the integration time might come own a bit but even that is not a doubling of efficiency. The line is just too small, way too small.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby DexterM » 16 Mar 2016 11:18

Folks must have doordarshan to be able to judge the number of jigs available from such distances.

There are two Final Assembly areas. There might be 4 jigs each. Folks with operations management backgrounds might be better suited to comment on how to use the available space better. imvho, HAL will construct another shed or two to add jigs based on state of completion, as well as add more storage area away from the current assembly sheds (if you see the current physical layout, you will know what that means). Take a Volvo from Marathahalli to Domlur and see for yourself instead of conjecturing from an armchair.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby DexterM » 16 Mar 2016 11:25

mahadevbhu wrote:^

Why does one need an extra line to increase the output of the main LCA assembly line?

Lets assume there are 8 jigs and 8 LCAs being assembled .

First shift is 8 hours - and now there are two more 8 hour shifts to make the rate of work increase.

More assembly lines are not needed. Better management of existing 8 jigs, and feeding of the sub assembly parts , scheduling, management is what is required.

I have seen a few small factories being run beautifully and large factories being run poorly. Usually the small, high quality firms win in the long term.


How much time does an aircraft spend on a jig during its assembly?
What about lead times for components? Are the suppliers ready right now to provide 8 more a year of whatever they have committed to in their tenders?
If L&T or Reliance or TAML or Godrej are going to manufacture the wings or fuselage components and ship them over, do they have the facilities in place right now?
If not, how much time does it take to get these long lead items in place? Two years or three?
How can the production rate increase without these contracts? (this is still a Govt. project, isn't it?)
Is Operations Management just a textbook and not a real thing?

In short, adding shifts will not help. More space for more jigs might. Contracts for ensuring accelerated supply of committed components will work best!
Most of all, not going by additional personnel required, would really really help! We have no shortage of production floor people. There are several companies that provide trained skilled labor on contract. That would also probably help.

Not sure what else I missed here, but people are treating this like a soap factory, and not an high end engineering production line!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 16 Mar 2016 12:58

CAG report is clear that HAL has "capacity" to produce maximum of 4 LCA per annum. But obviously if any aircraft assembly is delayed then that Jig will remain blocked, hence as per empirical evidence HAL can produce only 1 aircraft per annum. HAL has not even ordered equipment till 2014 to take up the production line capacity to 8 inspite of funds being allocated in ...............2001. The issue of setting up production line / increasing production to 16 is still at the "planning stage", no way it will be done before 2020.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 18 Mar 2016 20:37

Here is shareable banter over indigenous Amrut and imported JW. Most of this is already known to people.

On the Rafale.

Now, if one examines the IAF flightline, the aircraft that have the highest availability is Mirage 2000 and Jaguar. Infact MiG-27 inducted after Jaguar will be retired before it. So while these aircraft are capital expensive, as are their upgrades, they’ve the lowest Lifecycle Costs. The Mirage 2000I with RDY-2 and MICA is the best air superiority fighter of the IAF. Because of superior build quality, the airframe lives can be extended.

While operationally IAF loves the Rafale, the French really screwed up up the negotiations, refusing ToT required to integrate weapons like Astra (much cheaper than MICA) or LGBs under development, and adamantly refusing anything more than local assembly of CKD kits, and lastly charging exorbitantly.

The Scorpene duping is fresh on the negotiator’s minds. Infact if the French were more open on ToT, then more Scorpenes would’ve been ordered to keep MDL submarine line open rather than build a new line for Project 75I

On the Su-30

Soviet design philosophy never focused on build quality. Reason being in the Cold War, they believed platforms would quickly turn obsolete. So why build to last? We faced problems with old Osa, Kamorta Nanuchka classes of ships wearing out very rapidly. We’ve actually changed everything in the Rajputs to keep them going. There will not be more Su-30 orders, given the relative rapidity with which they wear out vis-à-vis Jaguars. They’re not perceived as Value for Money when LCC is considered.

Also Russian tactical weaponry is lagging behind Western, Israeli & even Indian development. No worthwhile or mature AESA radars, LGB kits, no reliable AAMs. With what will one upgrade Su-30 with in 2020s? The only relevant options is Elta 2052, and I-Derby provided they perform on the Tejas. Entire Brahmos and Astra integration is done by India with zero Russian input.

On the Tejas,

The present production will focus on Mk1(FOC) until 2018 and it is expected SOP 2018 production to start that year. It is a reasonable timeframe. It is expected Mk2 development to complete by 2025 by which production would shift to Mk2. Mk2 orders would be placed as development matures. Presently all development focus is on completing SOP 2018 so that it enters production by 2018. Mk2 development will start thereafter with an aim of entering production in 2025 timeframe.

There was initial organizational skepticism because of non involvement, but presently, there is complete support for Tejas. It only remains for HAL to deliver. More below.

Having said that, these are very relative plans and timeframes, and will change with the flow.

As the saying goes, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.

On HAL Manufacturing

HAL has never manufactured any modern aircraft from ground up other than late Batch Jaguars and some Su-30. Even part of the 140 local manufacture Su-30 moved to CKD kits because of aircraft shortage in IAF. Blame is not always HAL, OEM play truant while knowledge sharing and certifying local R&D to work with their platforms.

Actual production of both late Batch Jaguar and Su-30 from ground up has been extremely slow. Mk1A production is the first real production run of a modern fighter at HAL. They really need to do well on this.

On FGFA, the Russian development is slow, and absolutely no visibility on when the development will mature. There is no new engine in sight.

Same on MTA.

There is a bit of frustration with HAL expecting Russians to hand over FGFA and MTA on a silver platter for HAL to SKD/CKD manufacture them like Su-30/MiG-27.

Infact, it has been pointed out that HAL being a proper corporation, nothing stops it from exploring cooperation with Embraer on the 390, whose development has been progressing quite well.

There is a urgent need for HAL to be more proactive like a proper corporation rather than try to peddle more Hawk Trainers.

Gone are the days when focus of PSUs was employment generation building more Hawk Trainers. They need to be proper manufacturers with vision.

To summarize, there is no Plan B

The good news is that there is no Plan B in the neighbourhood.

Pakistan will beg/borrow/steal every F-16 it can from US or Jordan or any other second hand seller. The JF-17 is at best a F-7 replacement that no serious air force is considering – even ones like Sri Lanka, Nigeria or Myanmar.

Similarly Chinese are desperately trying to improve the reliability of their J-10, the Russians never gave them proper ToT for their Su-27 clones. Reliable aircraft are shown off either by aggressive deployment or in exercises/airshows and Chinese have never deployed their new aircraft either way.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 21:11

Looks like we best get cracking on indigenization of the Su-30 and the weapons part as well. The N011M should be future proof for a while to come, its a beast of a system - so with Astras and local JDAM/LGBs/Glide bombs and NGARMs we will have some leeway.
The Russian tactical weaponry experience has been horrendous for sure - Kh-31/RVV-AE.. all disappointments. But the KAB-500/1500s should be ok (some saving grace).

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 19 Mar 2016 04:47

Good summary tsarkar.

MLU on Su-30MKI should be as much indigenous affair as possible. More LCA Mk.1 should be ordered--around 10 squadrons total to replace equal number of retiring MiG-21/27 squadrons by 2022/24. That would maintain fleet strength. LCA Mk.2 should be seen as replacement for oldest of MiG-29/Mirage-2000/Jaguar platforms post 2025. At least 6 squadrons of Mk.2 should be planned for to tide things over until AMCA is ready. More Mk.2 should ordered if there are delays in AMCA development. AMCA would augment "medium" category post 2035 and fleet expansion could begin from then.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srin » 19 Mar 2016 06:21

@tsarkar-ji, one small nitpick on the Scorpene - more might be added as per this.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 19 Mar 2016 06:22

tsarkar wrote:
The Scorpene duping is fresh on the negotiator’s minds. Infact if the French were more open on ToT, then more Scorpenes would’ve been ordered to keep MDL submarine line open rather than build a new line for Project 75I

What was the Scorpene issue exactly?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby uddu » 19 Mar 2016 08:07

Most probably on the radar front, we will be seeing Uttam AESA and variants.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_29294 » 19 Mar 2016 09:41

I am starting to lose faith in HAL to deliver.

SP-2 should have been here months ago, and to date there has only been 1 plane delivered to IAF. It seems that HAL union workers are not capable of working like the private sector. Look at how many crores are wasted to HAL employees that refuse to work during day hours and only when they are paid extra in 'overtime'.

http://www.business-standard.com/content/general_pdf/043013_03.pdf

HAL needs to be privatized as soon as possible. Else we will not see Tejas being delivered.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 19 Mar 2016 12:04

shiv wrote:What was the Scorpene issue exactly?

Lack of ToT that was initially effusively promised but was very vaguely put in the contract. We paid exorbitantly for that in the hope of knowledge sharing.

DE submarines are like ultra silent snipers being able to wreck havoc on enemy submarines & fleets.

The challenge is not building a submarine with diesel engines and lead acid batteries. The Yugoslavs and North Koreans do that.

The challenge is building a compact hydrodynamic hull packed with sensors & weapons while leveraging the extremely limited electrical power onboard.

The reason we knowingly paid exorbitantly was that we would learn building such ultra quiet & extremely efficient hulls and thereafter apply that knowledge to indigenous DE and nuclear submarines.

Unfortunately that KT has not materialized.
Last edited by tsarkar on 19 Mar 2016 12:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 19 Mar 2016 12:18

2018-19 will be decisive years for Indian Aviation manufacturing.

The Su-30MKI line in Nasik will become idle. The original plan was to start PAKFA/FGFA production thereafter.

The options for the Govt, HAL & IAF will be -

1. PAKFA/FGFA is ready (highly improbable)

2. An upgraded Su-30MKI is ready with AESA, better engines, and better missiles to bridge the gap until PAKFA enters production (highly unlikely)

3. The production line shifts to Rafale (looks difficult)

4. The production line shifts to Gripen or Eurofighter (depending on whether a deal can be negotiated)

5. If none of the above materialize, and if Mk1A is fully mature, and Mk2 development progressing well, possibly the line can be converted as a third line to Tejas. Worst case India needs 720 fighters, and with life of a fighter 30 years, 24 fighters will need to be built annually. So with Bangalore production ramped up to 16, and Nasik line converted to 8 Tejas annually, the numbers can be met.

What works for Tejas -

1. IAF considers Tejas to have a complete package with Elta 2032, Litening, I-Derby, Python, Griffin & Paveway unlike Su-30 lacking AAMs and Mirage 2000's exorbitant package.

2. Perfidy of the Russians & French

What works against Tejas -

1. The (relatively) slow pace of productionization. It is expected Mk1A & Mk2 R&D will pick up pace based on past experience. In the missile program, Agni II & I took time, but once we learnt, Agni III, IV & V came out rapidly.

Added later - IAF is not keen on Low Observability or Stealth. When one is dropping bombs on Sargodha, the enemy will know and can predict with relative accuracy where the plane is coming from and where it will be going. So IAF wants the ability to fly and fight it out rather than LO, with good flight performance, weapons, weapons load and most importantly EW.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chetak » 19 Mar 2016 12:41

Chakra.in wrote:I am starting to lose faith in HAL to deliver.

SP-2 should have been here months ago, and to date there has only been 1 plane delivered to IAF. It seems that HAL union workers are not capable of working like the private sector. Look at how many crores are wasted to HAL employees that refuse to work during day hours and only when they are paid extra in 'overtime'.

http://www.business-standard.com/content/general_pdf/043013_03.pdf

HAL needs to be privatized as soon as possible. Else we will not see Tejas being delivered.


The "private" companies are full of ex HAL and other ex PSU employees depending on what they have been setup to make. They do no original work but mostly do contract work for the defence PSUs themselves. At most, some do contract labor work for some foreign "principals" again making stuff mostly for the PSUs

everyone wants to feed off the public trough and sarkari teats.

we need to inculcate some self respect and a sense of national purpose. This reservation culture has taken us about as far as it could have and now the negative aspects of such rampantly inefficient hiring policies and the sense of entitlement that it has created in the emergent class of "socially aware" employees are starting to kick in.

Tsarkar ji is absolutely spot on about no work going on in PSUs without overtime.

When you have an iron rice bowl, then callously milking the perks becomes your primary objective, often unmindful of the dying vine to which you are so parasitically and umbilically attached.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 19 Mar 2016 15:54

GIF of LCA Tejas HUD/HMDS from Iron Fist 2016

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 1283041282

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 19 Mar 2016 17:24

How come the same union HAL employees churn out ~ 15 Sukhoi 30 mkis per annum.. Overtime or not, after initial hiccups in manufacturing, the production has stabilized well..

The LCA production *will* have its share of initial issues.. But that doesn't mean one starts crapping on HAL Employees..

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 19 Mar 2016 19:15

Nirav, pls dig deeper.

How many of the 15 (and indeed entire 272) are manufactured from raw materials and how many are assembled from kits supplied by IAPO.

You'll find the answers yourself.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 19 Mar 2016 20:29

Tsarkar ji,

I will have to look up The phase III/IV numbers where there was increased raw material manufacturd of the sukhois.
But thats not thd point.

Uncharitable Remarks of HAL employees working only on overtime are not taking into account numerous challenges faced in getting production going..

Spillages in production Can happen to anyone.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 19 Mar 2016 20:36

^^^

There was a CAG report on it. Among other things, couple of issues stood out:
  • Compressed schedule - IAF wanted deliveries quicker as additional batches were ordered; some ToT had to be postponed/abandoned as a result. Original plans had 4 stages of progressive assembly in India from CKD to build from raw materials. Russians continued to supply various level of CKD/SKD kits for some of the additional batches.
  • Delay in ToT by Russians - they held back without incurring any penalties. That delayed make in India efforts by HAL resulting in more SKDs orders from Russia.


If the IAF needs more Su-30MKI, it would need to place orders now in order to give HAL the chance to build them from raw materials. Otherwise if the IAF waits till 2018 to order additional units and wants it delivered by 2020 then HAL will have no option but to order some of SKDs from Russia.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 19 Mar 2016 23:06

GIF of Cockpit Litening images of LCA Tejas from Iron Fist 2016
Sorry its 2 times faster and some parts cut in between to bring it to size

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 3794009089

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 19 Mar 2016 23:12

The dd video wasn't clear if lca had a bullseye for lgb and r-73, do we know the result ?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 19 Mar 2016 23:20

For LGB, crowd clapping and smoke. Be happy DD showed you that. :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 19 Mar 2016 23:23

suryag wrote:The dd video wasn't clear if lca had a bullseye for lgb and r-73, do we know the result ?


I think the LGB did hit the target, but DD messed up. If you see the video and listen carefully near the end of the cockpit shots, you can hear the bomb explode and then they will show a cloud of smoke just for couple of seconds before moving to R-73.

tsarkar
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2016 00:08

srai wrote:
  • Compressed schedule - IAF wanted deliveries quicker as additional batches were ordered; some ToT had to be postponed/abandoned as a result. Original plans had 4 stages of progressive assembly in India from CKD to build from raw materials. Russians continued to supply various level of CKD/SKD kits for some of the additional batches.
  • Delay in ToT by Russians - they held back without incurring any penalties. That delayed make in India efforts by HAL resulting in more SKDs orders from Russia.

Yes, the plan was, out of 272, the first 32 + 40 2007 + 18 replacements + 42 2012 were kit orders while 140 were to be progressively manufactured with 104 from raw materials.

The reasons cited by you are correct, but the reason is like a school child complaining he didn't get an education because teachers were poor & education system was bad.

Our historical texts have examples of Karna and Eklavya whose endeavour for education were exemplary. Contrast that with HAL behaviour.

HAL is a proper corporation. What did it do when it discovered Russians didn't share ToT? Did it aggressively fight for its "right to ToT" like Karna & Eklavya fought for their "Right to Education"?

No. It just meekly answered questions when CAG came asking.

Let's come to FGFA. HAL was the development partner. No DRDO in picture. IAF wanted a two seater.

HAL did build a model with a Su-30MKI nose & cockpit mated to PAKFA empennage here http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/09/ ... -fgfa.html

That design used to be there in their website but now it's been replaced with PAKFA http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Detail ... y=&CKey=67

It's an indicator that HAL would be happy with just license manufacture of PAKFA

How much joint R&D did HAL do with Sukhoi to ensure RoI on R&D investment? Negligible. Is HAL fighting with the Russians for its "Right to R&D"? No

It's the IAF that is indignant on lack of development progress, cutting orders, and calling it a third generation figher.

Even better example is MTA. Did HAL ever complain on lack of progress? No.

Did HAL ever advise MoD on Ilyushin Bureau's lack of progress and possibly explore cooperation with others like Antonov or Embraer? No.

How many decades have passed? It's happily building obsolete Do228.

So rather than whining like a school kid complaining bad teachers & education system, nothing stops HAL from coming up on its own.

No one can spoon-feed production engineering or R&D to HAL. It still expects PAKFA & MTA on a silver platter like Su-30MKI.

The nation desperately needs HAL to be much more proactive than its today.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2016 00:15

>>>HAL is a proper corporation. What did it do when it discovered Russians didn't share ToT? Did it aggressively fight for its "right to ToT" like Karna & Eklavya fought for their "Right to Education"?

Apart from taking Sukhoi to court (which is a mugs game since it will only stop the deal) what can HAL do? Unfortunately our foreign "collaborators" have us by the short and curlies, and I think the right answer to the above is to aggressively indigenize but even there, for things like the engine we will not be able to do much (not till that ecosystem matures)

HAL basically needs to fund MSME and SME plus explore much more aggressive indigenization programs with L&T etc.

Otherwise, its just going to remain a license assembly shop.


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