LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Shreeman » 10 Jan 2016 22:23

There is a bigger purpose being served by all this chaos. The thinking goes like this. If there was a overwhelming superiority, then the toilet would be flushed sooner on later by some crown prince who gets above his station, like sultan salman is trying to. Or as uncle has always been. So, minimal credible everything. Dont let some service chief sleep peacefully because he has quantity and quality. Or they might want to dream of being zia ulhaq.

Thus a trickle of anything and everything. The excuses generate joBs, they generate bribes and the top of the food chain isnt bothered much by a flashpoint.

This is the status quo of last two decades and from the look of it another decade or two in the future too.Why complain? this is by design, not by chance.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 10 Jan 2016 22:56

shiv wrote:
uddu wrote:Anyone here going to Bahrain for the Air show? Will need Videos, and lots of them of Tejas. :)

And please keep a steady hand while videoing the Tejas


Won't the Bahrain guys be recording everything?
Don't we have a budget for this? being do PR enabled as we are?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 11 Jan 2016 00:16

deejay wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Everything in beginning itself! That too with constant new/revised additions.

On the other hand, even the PAF has already inducted 66 J-17 (a much simpler aircraft/capability) in three blocks with features being added over time after induction. Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, Su-30MKI et al all followed the same pattern. Give some slack IMO!


If I may dare ask without being whacked - wasn't it HAL which was insisting on a frozen SOP prior to undertaking manufacture on assembly line?

I may be wrong technically pr factually, in which request pardon the ignoramus?


IMO, the whole LCA Mk1A is bit ambitious for the given timelines. Delays should be expected. Hopefully though, production will continue with IOC-2/FOC if delays occur with Mk1A. Let it not be like Arjun MBT program where the lines sat idle for over 3-years between Mk.1 and Mk.2 production run.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 11 Jan 2016 00:34

I think it was the IAF that wanted the SOP frozen because it was trying to insert the Rafale over the LCA. Even though the JF-17 is a limited aircraft, I admire the fact that they have 66 of them in squadron service learning about the aircraft, its production and its strengths and weaknesses.
Here it is taking the PMO and the Def Min to force the aircraft down the IAF's throat. The Pakis are ready with a product to export while we argue about 1/1a/2
Last edited by Vivek K on 11 Jan 2016 00:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby fanne » 11 Jan 2016 00:44

yup as of today JF-17 is 1 and LCA is 0 only because 66 of these are in sq service and if the balloon goes up, they will show for fight while LCA cannot.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 11 Jan 2016 01:00

And we have esteemed BRF posters taking shots at it all the time. All BRF energy should be focused on trying to get LCA in squadron service. The LSPs (7?) and the 2 SPs should become the first squadron.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Jan 2016 05:16

is it not the first LCA squadron go active from next year? at least that was what we read. okay, plus/minus few months.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby habal » 11 Jan 2016 07:43

saturation attack: pakis can field 66 fighters with data link with airborne advance warning system, switch off their jf-17 radars and make it invisible and do a saturation attack with BVRAAMs on LCA, su-30. While LCA fights with SOP on drawing board.

sometimes numbers can mean everything. Destroy pakistan's air force on some pretext today than waiting to do it when economy is 20 times larger. They would have added 250 jf-17 by then.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 07:58

habal wrote:saturation attack: pakis can field 66 fighters with data link with airborne advance warning system, switch off their jf-17 radars and make it invisible and do a saturation attack with BVRAAMs on LCA, su-30. While LCA fights with SOP on drawing board.

Interesting idea..

But when all those 66 fighters land in their air bases after 1 hour to be refuelled and re armed. Jags can fly in and pick them off no? What then?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby habal » 11 Jan 2016 08:05

what if their eyes in the sky goes down in half-an hour. What then ?

Until that happens they have an effective plan.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 11 Jan 2016 08:09

saturation attack: pakis can field 66 fighters with data link with airborne advance warning system, switch off their jf-17 radars and make it invisible and do a saturation attack with BVRAAMs on LCA, su-30. While LCA fights with SOP on drawing board


In order to evade detection from early warning surveillance radars as we all as airborne AEW's from the IAF, the PAF fighters would essentially have to fly really low to the ground. Doing so, will limit their sensor reach and quality thereby effectively ruling out them doing any sort of BVR damage to IAF fighters. Secondly, how will turning off radars make JF-17's invisible? and how will they deploy BVR missiles without using their radars?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 11 Jan 2016 09:01

deejay wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Everything in beginning itself! That too with constant new/revised additions.

On the other hand, even the PAF has already inducted 66 J-17 (a much simpler aircraft/capability) in three blocks with features being added over time after induction. Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, Su-30MKI et al all followed the same pattern. Give some slack IMO!


If I may dare ask without being whacked - wasn't it HAL which was insisting on a frozen SOP prior to undertaking manufacture on assembly line?

I may be wrong technically pr factually, in which request pardon the ignoramus?


Deejay Saar,

Frozen SOP is imperative to start manufacturing, its not an unreasonable demand. The real question is why the freezing of SOP was delayed for each and every feature/modification that came forth. The whole idea of doing iterative development is that you have to draw a line and push some modifications/features to next iteration. We have had discussed who to blame for this to death. No point to start it all over again. I think everyone in the project has contributed to the mess. This is expected in ab initio undertaking to some extent. But IMHO what we lacked was hard-lined decision making at program management level for whatever reasons. When something is not happening, you need to salvage the program by taking some hard decisions about what can be done and what should be pushed to next iteration in order to keep the program on track. It took Modi/MP to put some sense in the program and bring this MK1/1A plan.

I also think this constant change in configurations, due to which almost every PV/LSP was different from each other, has caused some delay in flight testing. IMO you should have atleast 3-4 prototypes of identical configuration to ease flight testing. Imagine one particular thing could be certified only on one certain prototype, and that protoptype is grounded for some reason. You either have to modify another one to undertake same flight testing tasks or wait until that one particular prototype to start flying.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Jan 2016 09:11

brar saab perfecto response.. switching off radar doesn't mean you are not susceptible to radar returns. you gotta fly really low which again is a disadvantage against heat seekers at subsonic regime.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 09:15

habal wrote:what if their eyes in the sky goes down in half-an hour. What then ?

Until that happens they have an effective plan.

Better to plan for a war lasting more than half an hour no? In any case Jaguars don't need eye in the sky to attack going in at 50 feet.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby habal » 11 Jan 2016 09:20

I was thinking of Turkish attack on Su-24, awacs based in Saudi covered Turkish-Syrian border and guided the AIM-XX, but yes turkish planes flew close to ground to avoid detection. The Turkish F-16 or whatever crap it was didn't switch on the radar and the missile was totally guided till target by the awacs. So that settles for me the question if radar has to be switched on to guide a missile.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby BharadwajV » 11 Jan 2016 10:30

Even our Bisons are BVR capable and have datalink with the Su30 MKIs.
A single MKI can share info with four Bisons(IIRC) and we have over 200 MKIs and over 150 Bisons.
And our Jaguars will be armed with the ASRAAM. Not to mention that we have the Baaz with the Zhuk M2E fairly close to the border.
We should induct more CABS AWACS, though.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 10:35

Bisons don't have a datalink. There was some speculation at Cope India by the US. But they were never fitted with one.
MKIs can share data amongst themselves. 4 groups of 4.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jan 2016 10:53

habal wrote:I was thinking of Turkish attack on Su-24, awacs based in Saudi covered Turkish-Syrian border and guided the AIM-XX, but yes turkish planes flew close to ground to avoid detection. The Turkish F-16 or whatever crap it was didn't switch on the radar and the missile was totally guided till target by the awacs. So that settles for me the question if radar has to be switched on to guide a missile.


It most probably true that F-16 did not switch on its radar, but being an IR missile I dont think AWACS locked on the Target.

What I could gather from earlier BRF discussion IR missiles can be launched in 3 ways to the target.

1. Target acquired via the fighter radar and locking on.

2. Target acquired IR lock through OLS

3. Using the Missile seeker lock on before or after launch, in this mode since the IR cooling gases have been activated the Missile has to bee used compulsorily within a minute or so. The Missile then flies to the target.

I believe that the AWACS was just scanning and letting the F-16's via datalink where the SU-24 was. The F-16's sneaked in from behind, activated the Missile Seeker and launched the Missile and Left. The requirement for this requires the aircraft to be within the seeker range of the Target, which it was.

For radar launched missiles I dont think Awacs can lock on to a target, anther fighter has to lock on and send coordinates to aircraft and missile through Data link, but the range of targeting radar is probably 100km ish and not AWACS distance of 300km.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_28990 » 11 Jan 2016 11:14

BVR test with derby very soon :D :D :D The finishing line is close!!!

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/01/ ... iring.html

As the laboured final stretch of India's LCA Tejas trudges on, there's a final milestone on the, well, horizon. A Tejas fighter with a fully integrated multi-mode radar and new quartz radome is all set to fire its first BVR missile off the coast of Goa -- Livefist can confirm it will be a Rafael Systems Derby (mock-ups pictured above last year). As reported earlier by Livefist, the Derby has been signed on as a stopgap in the event that the indigenous Astra doesn't enter the field of play in time. More details on this upcoming test soon.

The real wait, of course, is for the Tejas to begin carriage and firing tests of the in-development Astra, which has already been fired a few times from an IAF Su-30MKI.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 11 Jan 2016 15:15

habal wrote:I was thinking of Turkish attack on Su-24, awacs based in Saudi covered Turkish-Syrian border and guided the AIM-XX, but yes turkish planes flew close to ground to avoid detection. The Turkish F-16 or whatever crap it was didn't switch on the radar and the missile was totally guided till target by the awacs. So that settles for me the question if radar has to be switched on to guide a missile.


Neither the turkish aircraft, nor any other can guide a missile using an AWACS. An AWACS is for surveillance purposes, and not for targeting aircraft using weapons. There was also no indication that the E-7 was in the air at the time, and the Turkish F-16's fired Aim-9's iirc. Also, I don't believe they flew really low to avoid detection (detection from what?). AWACS control the battle, i.e. they tell you were your opponent and friendlies are, and they guide you as to where to position yourself. A fighter however, still has to use its primary sensor to use a BVR weapon. Also, the PAF fighters in the F-16, and JF-17 would have different data-links and different weapons. While an AMRAAM equipped fighter can do cooperative targeting in some cases, different aircraft that are not interoperable like that cannot. Think of an AWACS as an airborne surveillance radar guiding your intercepts, much like a low-frequency sensor would do from a ground using its early-warning abilities. Its not an extremely large fire-control radar.

For radar launched missiles I dont think Awacs can lock on to a target, anther fighter has to lock on and send coordinates to aircraft and missile through Data link, but the range of targeting radar is probably 100km ish and not AWACS distance of 300km.


An AWACS is a surveillance asset and will not give the quality data required for a weapons grade launch such as you would get from a fire-control radar plus you would have to data link the mid-course guidance using your own DL or one from a compatible aircraft .An AWACS (depending upon the type of radar) would also not discriminate as well as an FCR on a fighter simply because of the type of sensor required for wide-area surveillance. What an AWACS permits you to do is develop comprehensive Situational Awareness without using your own radar, which then allows you to stay relatively quiet until it is time to deploy weapons. It will however still not make you immune to detection from radars both from the ground or on the air.

For a first hand account of how an AWACS can manage an air-air battle/engagement, refer to this 1992 video of an F-16 shooting down a Mig-25 with the help of an E3 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZjWT-i_Hk
Last edited by brar_w on 11 Jan 2016 15:55, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jan 2016 15:26

Brar_W-> Turkish F-16's were hiding from Russian Land based radars which would have warned the SU-24 and brought Russian Fighters to the area.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 11 Jan 2016 15:28

Aditya_V wrote:Brar_W-> Turkish F-16's were hiding from Russian Land based radars which would have warned the SU-24 and brought Russian Fighters to the area.


Got that, but was there any conclusive proof of Saudi E-3 involvement? AWACS or no AWACS, since the Turkish aircraft were operating from home, they would have had a string of early warning radars feeding them information over the radio as to what the precise locations/movements of there targets were. Also, from what I can recall is that the Russians prior to the shoot-down had a long range surveillance radar (96L6 S/L band radar) operational so that could be what they were trying to sneak from however regardless of that the situational awareness was still fairly lacking as one would imagine in that sort of a scenario (no AWACS, and no distributed sensor coverage (more centralized) ) allowing them to sneak up. The Pakistan v India scenario does not have those characteristics. The Indian side will have considerable sensor coverage, both from the ground and the air. While an air-battle can be effectively waged through cooperation between an early warning aircraft (AEW) and your fighter force, the Pakistani air-force would still have to account for Indian air-defenses both from the air and the ground. Therefore, they cannot stay hidden using those tactics alone and would still be susceptible to targeting from the air and the ground .
Last edited by brar_w on 11 Jan 2016 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 11 Jan 2016 16:14

Guys, back to Tejas. No more Turkish tactics etc.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Jan 2016 17:43

Is this the new extended range derby? do we know the details on this? that means two things... confirmation of what type of radar and 2, cobham radomes integration seeing no problems.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby BharadwajV » 11 Jan 2016 18:20

^^
Don't think that we've purchased the I Derby ER. ADA is probably using Derby from the LUSH's arsenal...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 11 Jan 2016 20:43

SSridhar wrote:Guys, back to Tejas. No more Turkish tactics etc.

YES!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2016 20:49

i had already posted the article by a f-16 expert in levant thread how the lanes were hiding and timing. the rus radar is well to the south behind the high hills of north latakia.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 11 Jan 2016 21:16

Folks why this constant urge to lose focus and go down rabbit holes?

Livefist is giving some updated milestones being eagerly awaited.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Nick_S » 13 Jan 2016 14:29

Good news. BVR test firing soon after Bahrain airshow (more info in link).

Tejas may fire Derby, Python missiles in Jamnagar on return from Bahrain......

Image

Both planes were scheduled to leave the base today enroute to Muscat and finally to the Sakhir Airbase in Bahrain.......


Distance from jamnagar to muscat is 1184.95 kilometers. This air travel distance is equal to 736.29 miles.
http://www.distancefromto.net/distance- ... /to/muscat
Last edited by Nick_S on 13 Jan 2016 15:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby sankum » 13 Jan 2016 14:41

From tejas facebook page

Sir, regarding sop18 or mk1a is it really true we are looking to reduce weight of aircraft by 800kgs??

Tejas - LCA I doubt this figure, sir.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Nick_S » 13 Jan 2016 15:09

LCA will be parked along with FC-1 and RAF Eurofighter.

Tejas will be at ‘striking distance’ of Pak JF-17s at Bahrain

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby kvraghav » 13 Jan 2016 16:05

So the Tejas aircraft flying to Bahrain will have the Chobam supplied nosecone?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby fanne » 13 Jan 2016 16:22

I am very uncomfortable with tejas so close to pakis. They can play any trick - throw a pebble inside the engine, glue a phosphorous strip somewhere in the fuselage. They will sabotage. I hope there is a security team guarding it 24/7

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Jan 2016 17:31

well, park a dummy near by then. ;) or ask the typhoon walas to be in the middle

Image

check out there may be already floating, how typhoos and bhandars are escorting the parked lanes for LCA.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 13 Jan 2016 19:40

^^^

They should have put Korean KAI T-50 there instead of Typhoons :idea:

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2016 19:44

fanne wrote:I am very uncomfortable with tejas so close to pakis. They can play any trick - throw a pebble inside the engine, glue a phosphorous strip somewhere in the fuselage. They will sabotage. I hope there is a security team guarding it 24/7

We can also throw a pebble no? Better that they also have security

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 13 Jan 2016 19:51

Read on a paki forum that bandar is not participating in the flying display..

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 13 Jan 2016 20:11

Chor ke dadi main tinka? Afraid of being upstaged by Tejas? H&D protection?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 13 Jan 2016 20:24

shiv wrote:
fanne wrote:I am very uncomfortable with tejas so close to pakis. They can play any trick - throw a pebble inside the engine, glue a phosphorous strip somewhere in the fuselage. They will sabotage. I hope there is a security team guarding it 24/7

We can also throw a pebble no? Better that they also have security
A security contingent is part of the team.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 13 Jan 2016 20:48

Karan M wrote:Chor ke dadi main tinka? Afraid of being upstaged by Tejas? H&D protection?


Looks like. Its very strange for Pakis to fly the bandars to Bahrain but not take part in the flying display.

I was actually looking forward to see the bandar fly.
Would have given great stuff for Shiv Saar to make his comparo vid ..


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