Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analysis-I

[rajanb]

The Pathankot Attack Was a Disgrace For Us
Lt General HS Panag (Retd.)

Lieutenant General Harcharanjit Singh Panag (retired) (born 4 December 1948) is an Indian political activist associated with the Aam Aadmi Party. He is father of Gul Panag!

'nuff said!

Sad. Shouldn't the country come first?
Should I bother to post statements by Sushma Swaraj that one soldiers severed head demands ten severed Pakistani heads?
or 56 inch of chatthi for chowkidari of India? That no Palistani will ever cross the border if Modiji becomes PM. (All in the public domain)
And which party does General VK Singh belong to? The great 7000 evacuees from Yemen when Air India evacuated the largest number of Indians from Kuwait, w/o a frigging general to do it?

If you are for party over country, God help Bharat Mata.

[UlanBatori]

It IS at that level, sadly.
As for "72 Hours", that is a misstatement. What GOI said is that the terrorists each met 72 HourIs.

[chetak]

...
For me personally the image that will remain forever is the fearless DSC soldier of our armed forces who embraced certain death who chased and killed one of the pigs. There is no army. air force, NSG, dovalji that will inspire this nation from this incident but the selfless, fearless retired soldier who knowingly sacrificed himself in the highest tradition of Armed forces.....

+1

I request Hakimji to comment on the age aspect of DSCs.

Nobody is expecting them to run 20k with 20 kg. But surely men like Subedar Major Fateh Singh - sharp shooter and hony. captain - had the right stuff in him to take on a jehadi.

a vast majority of jawans from the three services retire around the age of 35 - 37 years. some of then like the senior JCO/NCOs are older.

Some of this lot, jawans and the senior JCO/NCOs join the DSC. so there is a mix of parent services, different past trainings and job descriptions that these guys bring to the table.

[rajanb]

It IS at that level, sadly.
As for "72 Hours", that is a misstatement. What GOI said is that the terrorists each met 72 HourIs.

You funny Batori.
A few years back, God declared he had run out of virgins. So they would have got virgin fleshlights. :p

[chetak]

It IS at that level, sadly.
As for "72 Hours", that is a misstatement. What GOI said is that the terrorists each met 72 HourIs.

You funny Batori.
A few years back, God declared he had run out of virgins. So they would have got virgin fleshlights. :p

some enterprising Indian seculars would have, long ago, started a band aid factory there to help recycle virgins.

patch the snatch.

[Karan M]

>>Panag and many others are desperately trying to take the credit away from the government on a successful operation.

that is the crux of the issue. including some political types who are interspersing such commentary amongst cursing Modi, Doval all the time. their sudden concern for "mission success" is, to be honest very dodgy. curse/imply NSG is incompetent, call doval, modi names amongst entreaties about poor India.

spread propaganda about how the mission was utter failure, this, that.

yup, sure.

[Sid]

The general has a very good reputation for his army service and he certainly did not mean ANY disrespect to the DSC. No officer will ever denigrate his troops. It's disloyal, goes against the very grain and is against all military ethos. He meant rag tag in the manner of encompassing a wide variety in terms of training, capability and the ability to multitask and certainly not well standardized/suited/trained for direct contact with armed jehadis hell bent on mayhem. The DSC role and mandate is limited.

It is not completely up to the retired officers to join. The scrutiny is very very tough and all slackers are weeded out ruthlessly. very few are finally allowed to continue but for very limited periods only. The govt, for many years now, has strongly discouraged the hiring of such people as a matter of policy and the voluminous justification and paperwork is really tough to push through.

stats are certainly available but I really doubt if anyone is going to be putting them out in public domain.

No need to introduce him, my old man talks highly of him. You need not to defend him as well, one can be wrong once in a while.

Both DSC and CISF have same mandate, i.e. to protect vital Indian installations. Now after years of their service if we call them rag-tag and force with no mandate then we are questioning our own intellect of creating such a force in the first place. If we are specifically calling out their capabilities against suicide attacks then which force can actually take that burnt? Place high walls and special troops at checkpoint you will end up with a "green zone" type base in Iraq. Ask yourself, how protected were they?

As it was mentioned in previous thread, hundred times, we are looking at it from the wrong angle. We cannot protect every inch or even every inch of military/industrial zone in country. Take the fight to them. Enough defense, talk offense.

P.S. Also trust me on the scrutiny of hiring retired officers/soldiers, if your age has numbers left in it (with no medical handicap) you most probably will get an extension.

[Karan M]

Sid, one thing I have never understood.. this pointless bickering and name calling brother officers.. we saw the same spat in IAF vs IA post Kargil.

If you see the US, let alone TSP and most other countries.. there is always an effort to put up a dignified front in public, with none of this backbiting on display.

Delta force guys didn't stand and backbite Seal Team folks over Operation Redwing.

Here we have rag tag DSC, poorly trained Garud and so forth.. what is "poor" about Garud training one wonders. Apart from not being IA.
Similarly, NSG capabilities are repeatedly questioned, despite being manned by IA folks, some of the best chaps, all because its under MHA and IPS. Never mind the actual operational commander is usually a Brigadier or Major General from IA.

Its just over the top hyperbole which adds to interservice rivalry.

The MSM made a hue and cry and even IA has been forced to issue a statement about NSG being the right choice.. given the multiplicity of eqpt and roles (including bomb disposal) it had and the HRT mission likelihood.. the NSG manned by IA officers.. but gents have been busy slagging it because of the IA vs IPS rivalry, couched in verbiage about NSG being the wrong choice.

Same sort of commentary about NSG taking too long, questioning it and what not after 26/11.

Its really sad to see such bickering in public by a voluble bunch of rtd folks who are too busy becoming part of a clearly motivated campaign led by the usual MSM and other suspects.

[deejay]

Now I am a loyal forces guy but I have scant respect for Lt Gen Panag. Also, he is not new to controversy and making statements to discredit the IA.

While the link is not on current discussions but here we are questioning a lot of people to defend what Gen Panag has said so I shall post an old story to explain how much a person can be compromised. I was desisting from posting this but I am now else a lot of credit is being given to a very narrow minded act (The article has amongst its authors Praful Bidwai so read it before you shoot me). Also, this link because I have lost a better piece by someone else.

https://barmaidtoemperess.wordpress.com ... l-20-2012/

SO it now turns out, as many had suspected, that The Indian Express story alleging that there was unusual and un-notified movement on January 16 of two Army attack formations towards the national capital, which “spooked New Delhi”, was a complete fabrication. The barely hidden suggestion in the story was that the troop movement ominously took place the night before the Chief of the Army Staff General V.K. Singh moved the Supreme Court on the date of birth issue; it was a not-too-subtle way of the Army flexing its muscle against civilian authority.

The troop movement violated no protocol of standard operating procedure. Such movements need to be notified to the Defence Ministry only if they involve corps-level strength. The story appears to be wrong on other details too, and has been dismissed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Defence Minister A.K. Antony, and General V.K. Singh.

However, the real question is who fed or planted the story, and with what motive. One may never know for certain the answer to the first question, but the plausible motive seems to have been to discredit Gen. V.K. Singh. One of his detractors, former Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. H.S. Panag, said that the troop movement was an attempt by a “compromised [military] hierarchy” to “pre-empt” a likely decision by the Defence Ministry to sack the COAS. Lt Gen. Panag was relieved of his command after an anti-corruption inquiry in 2008, and has since retired. But he is a member of the Armed Forces Tribunal. Thus, it was totally out of order for him to make these remarks. A similar story was planted earlier about Gen. V.K. Singh having ordered the clandestine interception of telephone conversations involving top Defence Ministry officials. This pointed to grave indiscipline. But the charge was never substantiated.

...

Link to Lt Gen Panag's troop movement statement to Manu Pubby

http://indianexpress.com/article/news-a ... gen-panag/

While you all may disagree, this single episode was, IMVHO, the single most damaging act to the very fibre of Indian Armed Forces.

[rajanb]

>>>>>It IS at that level, sadly.
As for "72 Hours", that is a misstatement. What GOI said is that the terrorists each met 72 HourIs.[/quote]
You funny Batori.
A few years back, God declared he had run out of virgins. So they would have got virgin fleshlights. :p[/quote]

some enterprising Indian seculars would have, long ago, started a band aid factory there to help recycle virgins.

patch the snatch. <<<<<

[Karan M]

Deejay good find. Later there were reports that entire coup story was fed to a gent (lets call him Coupta) by his close contact a certain "veshti wearing" gent whose son is facing ED heat today. (whomsoever it may be). Suddenly out of nowhere, on Twitter, a certain jarnail posts CT about coups in close coordination.
All non coordinated onlee.

Which is why I say these political individuals actions are no longer about a non partisan approach to security. I still remember Kargil.. i wonder what the present bunch would say then. They would have been busy running down the Govt and national interest using MSM and SM, whilst loudly bemoaning the state of the nation.

[Karan M]

Sad. Shouldn't the country come first?
Should I bother to post statements by Sushma Swaraj that one soldiers severed head demands ten severed Pakistani heads?
or 56 inch of chatthi for chowkidari of India? That no Palistani will ever cross the border if Modiji becomes PM. (All in the public domain)
And which party does General VK Singh belong to? The great 7000 evacuees from Yemen when Air India evacuated the largest number of Indians from Kuwait, w/o a frigging general to do it?

If you are for party over country, God help Bharat Mata.

If the country really comes over party, then at such a time we wouldn't have comments on 56 inch "chatti for chowkidari" of India and similar stuff either.

And AI evacuated 7000 people from Yemen without VK Singh's involvement? So because he did do a yeoman job in Yemen and wasn't around in Kuwait and belongs to a certain party, his work should be discredited.

Brilliant.

No wonder the entire emphasis on running down an Op and insisting that it was a failure and what a disaster and so forth.

All because it occurred under a certain Govt which is loathed by folks who can't begin to accept it.

[Pranay]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 476559.cms

Operation Dhangu!!

CHANDIGARH: The Army on Wednesday justified the deployment of NSG in the operation against the six terrorists at the Pathankot airbase, saying that the three service chiefs had taken the call jointly so that the elite combat force could deal with any hostage crisis in the airbase which had around 3,000 family members of IAF personnel and 23 trainees from four foreign countries at the time of the attack.

Critics have questioned why NSG commandos were flown in from Delhi on January 2 when a large number of Army commandos were available in the border city itself.

Commander of the Army's Western Command Lt Gen K J Singh said the NSG was deployed as it is a force specially trained to deal with a hostage crisis. Apart from family members, 23 trainees from Afghanistan, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Myanmar were at the airbase when terrorists struck.

Singh said the strategic forward airbase of the IAF at Pathankot remained fully functional all through the 'Operation Dhangu', the codename given to the mission to eliminate the terrorists.

IAF planes carried out routine sorties in the border areas for surveillance, communication and reconnaissance, he added. Dhangu is the name of the village where the airbase has been established.

"Their purpose (of the attack) was to keep the strategic airbase out of action or to destroy its high value assets but they could not succeed in any of their motives. We have not only saved our high-value assets of airbase but it also continued to function and carry out sorties as was done in normal days," said Lt Gen Singh who led the army troops in the operation.

He said the operation went on for three days because the area was difficult and close to the family quarters of IAF personnel.

Security personnel did not want collateral damage at the Air Force station, he added. Calibrated use of minimum firepower was done to avoid unnecessary causalities and to save strategic assets of the airbase.

The terrorists remained dormant for an average 8-10 hours and the troops had to wait to fire upon them.

On January 3, when two terrorists had entered the barracks inside the airbase, six IAF personnel were stuck on the first floor of the building, Lt Gen Singh said. The commandos rappelled down to the building roof, broke the window on the first floor and evacuated IAF men. Thereafter the building was demolished with the help of IEDs to neutralise the terrorists.

According to the Army , the terrorists were carrying high velocity grenades having capacity to damage tanks. Besides that, army also recovered wire cutters, radio sets, a pamphlet of Jaish-e-Muhammed and other sophisticated weaponry .

[Sid]

Sid, one thing I have never understood.. this pointless bickering and name calling brother officers.. we saw the same spat in IAF vs IA post Kargil. If you see the US, let alone TSP and most other countries.. there is always an effort to put up a dignified front in public, with none of this backbiting on display. Delta force guys didn't stand and backbite Seal Team folks over Operation Redwing. Here we have rag tag DSC, poorly trained Garud and so forth.. what is "poor" about Garud training one wonders. Apart from not being IA. Similarly, NSG capabilities are repeatedly questioned, despite being manned by IA folks, some of the best chaps, all because its under MHA and IPS. Never mind the actual operational commander is usually a Brigadier or Major General from IA.

Its just over the top hyperbole which adds to interservice rivalry. The MSM made a hue and cry and even IA has been forced to issue a statement about NSG being the right choice.. given the multiplicity of eqpt and roles (including bomb disposal) it had and the HRT mission likelihood.. the NSG manned by IA officers.. but gents have been busy slagging it because of the IA vs IPS rivalry, couched in verbiage about NSG being the wrong choice. Same sort of commentary about NSG taking too long, questioning it and what not after 26/11. Its really sad to see such bickering in public by a voluble bunch of rtd folks who are too busy becoming part of a clearly motivated campaign led by the usual MSM and other suspects.

Yup, but there is an underlying statement to all of this. Pentagon after Vietnam fiasco understood the need to control
"Press Corps". They lost it mostly because of negative public sentiment in homeland. Fast forward to Desert Storm 2 and Afghanistan. They have total control on how media should perceive their actions. They still screwup and kill a lot of folks but image at home is not as tarnished as it used to be during Vietnam era.

MoD and combined forces should have single PR front. Even porkies have ISPR. Give such sensationalist journalist some "elite embedded journo" tag and let them sing your tune. Notice how NDTV and Times Now are IAFs best friend when their journos are given free ride on Su-30 etc.

[chetak]

The general has a very good reputation for his army service and he certainly did not mean ANY disrespect to the DSC. No officer will ever denigrate his troops. It's disloyal, goes against the very grain and is against all military ethos. He meant rag tag in the manner of encompassing a wide variety in terms of training, capability and the ability to multitask and certainly not well standardized/suited/trained for direct contact with armed jehadis hell bent on mayhem. The DSC role and mandate is limited.

It is not completely up to the retired officers to join. The scrutiny is very very tough and all slackers are weeded out ruthlessly. very few are finally allowed to continue but for very limited periods only. The govt, for many years now, has strongly discouraged the hiring of such people as a matter of policy and the voluminous justification and paperwork is really tough to push through.

stats are certainly available but I really doubt if anyone is going to be putting them out in public domain.

No need to introduce him, my old man talks highly of him. You need not to defend him as well, one can be wrong once in a while.

Both DSC and CISF have same mandate, i.e. to protect vital Indian installations. Now after years of their service if we call them rag-tag and force with no mandate then we are questioning our own intellect of creating such a force in the first place. If we are specifically calling out their capabilities against suicide attacks then which force can actually take that burnt? Place high walls and special troops at checkpoint you will end up with a "green zone" type base in Iraq. Ask yourself, how protected were they?

As it was mentioned in previous thread, hundred times, we are looking at it from the wrong angle. We cannot protect every inch or even every inch of military/industrial zone in country. Take the fight to them. Enough defense, talk offence.

P.S. Also trust me on the scrutiny of hiring retired officers/soldiers, if your age has numbers left in it (with no medical handicap) you most probably will get an extension.

the days of having numbers in your age is long gone. extensions are pretty hard to come by these days. only good clean ACRs and proven capability help.

If anyone has these two in hand , WTF would they stick around in the service?? They already have their pensions anyway.

most extension seekers are handicapped by the lack of the two above mentioned attributes.

the thrust of the generals analysis is spot on but however, his rantings against doval may not be widely subscribed to. All are not avid doval supporters like me.

no body in this govt, minister or babu is willing to cross doval. that very fear may lead to a vaccum in contingencies like this when everyone is sniffing the wind to see which way it is blowing.

the home secy made a cameo appearance just on one day and was never seen again because, he quite simply, was out of his depth. was he out buying groceries when he inadvertently blundered into the press conference??

doval himself must have been very , very busy coordinating a hundred different things. proper delegation to local authorities just did not seem to happen.

Akali dal bosses were protecting their own political turf and queered the pitch whereby the punjab police was hamstrung and so they much delayed their crucial inputs to decision makers.

[rajanb]

>>Panag and many others are desperately trying to take the credit away from the government on a successful operation.

that is the crux of the issue. including some political types who are interspersing such commentary amongst cursing Modi, Doval all the time. their sudden concern for "mission success" is, to be honest very dodgy. curse/imply NSG is incompetent, call doval, modi names amongst entreaties about poor India.

spread propaganda about how the mission was utter failure, this, that.

yup, sure.

Successful? Then you have low standards. BULLSHIT! Each Indian life is precious.

[chetak]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 476559.cms

Operation Dhangu!!

CHANDIGARH: The Army on Wednesday justified the deployment of NSG in the operation against the six terrorists at the Pathankot airbase, saying that the three service chiefs had taken the call jointly so that the elite combat force could deal with any hostage crisis in the airbase which had around 3,000 family members of IAF personnel and 23 trainees from four foreign countries at the time of the attack.

Critics have questioned why NSG commandos were flown in from Delhi on January 2 when a large number of Army commandos were available in the border city itself.

Commander of the Army's Western Command Lt Gen K J Singh said the NSG was deployed as it is a force specially trained to deal with a hostage crisis. Apart from family members, 23 trainees from Afghanistan, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Myanmar were at the airbase when terrorists struck.

Singh said the strategic forward airbase of the IAF at Pathankot remained fully functional all through the 'Operation Dhangu', the codename given to the mission to eliminate the terrorists.

IAF planes carried out routine sorties in the border areas for surveillance, communication and reconnaissance, he added. Dhangu is the name of the village where the airbase has been established.

"Their purpose (of the attack) was to keep the strategic airbase out of action or to destroy its high value assets but they could not succeed in any of their motives. We have not only saved our high-value assets of airbase but it also continued to function and carry out sorties as was done in normal days," said Lt Gen Singh who led the army troops in the operation.

He said the operation went on for three days because the area was difficult and close to the family quarters of IAF personnel.

Security personnel did not want collateral damage at the Air Force station, he added. Calibrated use of minimum firepower was done to avoid unnecessary causalities and to save strategic assets of the airbase.

The terrorists remained dormant for an average 8-10 hours and the troops had to wait to fire upon them.

On January 3, when two terrorists had entered the barracks inside the airbase, six IAF personnel were stuck on the first floor of the building, Lt Gen Singh said. The commandos rappelled down to the building roof, broke the window on the first floor and evacuated IAF men. Thereafter the building was demolished with the help of IEDs to neutralise the terrorists.

According to the Army , the terrorists were carrying high velocity grenades having capacity to damage tanks. Besides that, army also recovered wire cutters, radio sets, a pamphlet of Jaish-e-Muhammed and other sophisticated weaponry .

that is the result of some political bosses saving their own butts and applying the old and familiar tatta squeeze on the ever available fall guys.

one part seems true bacause it has come up in other forums too

sagnik chowdhury ‏@sagnik_c Jan 4

Pathankot terrorists were using modified AK-47s. Not with UBGLs, but something akin to mortar launchers @IndianExpress

15 retweets 6 likes

[shiv]

Do we need something like this on the IB at Punjab and other places next to Pakistan.

One disadvantage with a wall is that it blocks your view of what's going on on the other side, of course it works both ways.

Also more difficult to repair in a hurry compared to razorwire fencing

[ramana]

Posting an opinion. Not necessarily in agreement because I am sifting through whatever is available, in these days of twisted news.

One contradiction, which may have a plausible explanation is that all air assets were removed from the AFB. Another saying the AFB was fully operational.

Here it is. The last sentence tells it all

http://www.thequint.com/opinion/2016/01 ... ace-for-us

With full due respect to the retired General, it was not very responsible of him to call DSC a rag tag force. If this is how a retired general describes his own ex-servicemen, betrays some attitude problems.

Retired General is a scumbag to call the DSC a rag tag force. No leader disparages own troops. He has no espirit d'corps.

If he wants to do politics he never should have joined the Army.

The attack may be a disgrace but to call the DSC who killed the terrorist with his own gun as rag tag is the real disgrace.
He looks like an AAPturd>> AAPtard.

If a Paki terrorist comes after him he probably would be like the rascal SP. Can be very brave on Twitter.


---
chetak what do they mean modified AK-47s not with UBGL but more like mortar launchers?

Do they mean they have 2" mortar barrel strapped to a AK-47?

Wont the 2" mortar recoil force blow your arm away?
2" mortar is about 52mm and has a baseplate to transfer the recoil forces to the ground.

[shiv]

Sid, one thing I have never understood.. this pointless bickering and name calling brother officers.. we saw the same spat in IAF vs IA post Kargil.

Karan let me raise a point of order here. We read all this via the print media who are liars. Unless the words are heard on live TV I think we need to blame the media first for fukin round with people's statements. JMT

[shiv]

We are suckers for what the media write. We need to first recall that the media are only trying to make more money by attracting eyeballs. Never trust anything right off.

[Sid]

the days of having numbers in your age is long gone. extensions are pretty hard to come by these days. only good clean ACRs and proven capability help. If anyone has these two in hand , WTF would they stick around in the service?? They already have their pensions anyway. Most extension seekers are handicapped by the lack of the two above mentioned attributes.

The thrust of the generals analysis is spot on but however, his rantings against doval may not be widely subscribed to. All are not avid doval supporters like me. no body in this govt, minister or babu is willing to cross doval. that very fear may lead to a vaccum in contingencies like this when everyone is sniffing the wind to see which way it is blowing. The home secy made a cameo appearance just on one day and was never seen again because, he quite simply, was out of his depth. was he out buying groceries when he inadvertently blundered into the press conference?? doval himself must have been very , very busy coordinating a hundred different things. proper delegation to local authorities just did not seem to happen. Akali dal bosses were protecting their own political turf and queered the pitch whereby the punjab police was hamstrung and so they much delayed their crucial inputs to decision makers.

Dude, you seriously don't know any IA folks who applied for extension. I know people who went to civic (with good CTC), then applied for IA service extension and got it twice. This is two year old story. And that is just one case I am talking about. Please don't generalize.

I will reiterate my point, berating DSC and their capabilities is not in our interest. They are good at what they are being hired for. Until they hang their uniform they are all professional soldiers.

You will replace DSC today, then whats next? CISF? CRPF? BSF? Replace all of them with SF because they don't look TFTA or not part of a defense arm which a retd. general used to command?

By army standard all of these paramilitary troops are rag-tag, no?

[chetak]

{quote="rajanb"}Sad. Shouldn't the country come first?
Should I bother to post statements by Sushma Swaraj that one soldiers severed head demands ten severed Pakistani heads?
or 56 inch of chatthi for chowkidari of India? That no Palistani will ever cross the border if Modiji becomes PM. (All in the public domain)
And which party does General VK Singh belong to? The great 7000 evacuees from Yemen when Air India evacuated the largest number of Indians from Kuwait, w/o a frigging general to do it?

If you are for party over country, God help Bharat Mata.{/quote}

If the country really comes over party, then at such a time we wouldn't have comments on 56 inch "chatti for chowkidari" of India and similar stuff either.

And AI evacuated 7000 people from Yemen without VK Singh's involvement? So because he did do a yeoman job in Yemen and wasn't around in Kuwait and belongs to a certain party, his work should be discredited.

Brilliant.

No wonder the entire emphasis on running down an Op and insisting that it was a failure and what a disaster and so forth.

All because it occurred under a certain Govt which is loathed by folks who can't begin to accept it.

people are always going to make snide comments. That's why we are a democracy. suck it up and move on.

no one on the forum is saying the the op was a failure because it certainly was not but it certainly could have been managed better using past experiences that should have resulted in a better process by now

what the various analyses is trying to achieve/suggest is that there has to be a better process. lessons should have been learned from 26/11, other attacks in panjab, casmhere etc, the same internalized and by now a better and standardized process should have been evolved to respond to such situations.

we have improvised and managed to contain every situation so far but our luck can and will only stretch so far.

The terrorists have to succeed spectacularly only and only once where as the IA and the GOI have to succeed every single time.

if the terrorists succeed spectacularly only once, the weight of public opinion and the opposition outcry may even cause the govt to fall and then the congis and all the other nut jobs will sweep the ensuing elections.

[Karan M]

>>Panag and many others are desperately trying to take the credit away from the government on a successful operation.

that is the crux of the issue. including some political types who are interspersing such commentary amongst cursing Modi, Doval all the time. their sudden concern for "mission success" is, to be honest very dodgy. curse/imply NSG is incompetent, call doval, modi names amongst entreaties about poor India.

spread propaganda about how the mission was utter failure, this, that.

yup, sure.

Successful? Then you have low standards. BULLSHIT! Each Indian life is precious.

RajanB, spare me your politcally motivated BULLSHIT, please.

Every year, multiple Indian lives from the services are lost in Kashmir, NE and multiple other conflict zones.

Don't see you wailing and complaining about how pathetic things were. You quote all sorts of rhetoric about prior conflicts. Anyone with half a brain can dig out dime a dozen stories about how ops were bungled & mistakes were done in prior ones as well. Yet we prevailed. That is the nature of combat. "No plan survives first contact with the enemy".

After this current Govt came in, huge steps were taken for improving serviceability of aircraft, ships & combat units. Ammunition restocking.

I don't see you acknowledge any of that.

All I see you doing is making sure your political opinions drive your perception of the ops.

And that, dear sir, is BULLSHIT. Go suck on your lower or higher standards.

Anyone else would know that given the kind of challenges we face, losses in operations of this nature will continue to occur until & unless we get out of reactive mode & stop fighting on OUR territory.

And to change that paradigm, instead of all your curses on VK Singh & Sushma Swaraj & Modi, the reality is it will take a long time for both internal capabilities (serviceability & kit) and external (Covert, diplomatic) capabilities to rise to what we need.

So pardon me while I pay more attention to all that as versus getting caught up in your bullshit as you run down what we have achieved despite odds.

[Sid]

people are always going to make snide comments. That's why we are a democracy. suck it up and move on.

no one on the forum is saying the the op was a failure because it certainly was not but it certainly could have been managed better using past experiences that should have resulted in a better process by now

what the various analyses is trying to achieve/suggest is that there has to be a better process. lessons should have been learned from 26/11, other attacks in panjab, casmhere etc, the same internalized and by now a better and standardized process should have been evolved to respond to such situations.

we have improvised and managed to contain every situation so far but our luck can and will only stretch so far.

....................

Agree with first point, but second point... what? We made it so far with only luck?

[Karan M]

people are always going to make snide comments. That's why we are a democracy. suck it up and move on.

So do you suck it up and move on when barking mutt or the rest of the press gang makes snide comments on all sorts of topics? or isnt it that you can see through the propaganda and your skepticism kicks in about how these people deliberately run down indian capability and intent.

much the same this time around, running down an indian success in avoiding a major terrorist success and devaluing the indian armed forces and their deterrence capability?

why give these jokers a free pass, why should we?

if they can make snide comments and stupid comparisons, then they can bear similar heat as well and don't need a defense either.

no one on the forum is saying the the op was a failure because it certainly was not but it certainly could have been managed better using past experiences that should have resulted in a better process by now

what the various analyses is trying to achieve/suggest is that there has to be a better process. lessons should have been learned from 26/11, other attacks in panjab, casmhere etc, the same internalized and by now a better and standardized process should have been evolved to respond to such situations.

we have improvised and managed to contain every situation so far but our luck can and will only stretch so far.

The terrorists have to succeed spectacularly only and only once where as the IA and the GOI have to succeed every single time.

if the terrorists succeed spectacularly only once, the weight of public opinion and the opposition outcry may even cause the govt to fall and then the congis and all the other nut jobs will sweep the ensuing elections.

all very well, and those points need to be made in a civil manner. not calling garuds poorly trained and DSC rag tag or implying IA is about much better than NSG and NSG are a bunch of bumblers merely because they go to MHA and what not.

petty bickering in public is not expected by folks at a certain level.

[ramana]

chetak, Is PAFB a fortress with walls and all that? Panag seems to imply that.

Like the curates egg his comments are good in parts and rotten mostly.

I would like to engage CUB on intelligence failures.

I wrote two articles in BRM on that subject and late KS garu was appreciative of the systematic look at the data to pinpoint the factors for surprise.



Why don't we collect all the warnings that were there and analyze them?

[Karan M]

Sid, one thing I have never understood.. this pointless bickering and name calling brother officers.. we saw the same spat in IAF vs IA post Kargil.

Karan let me raise a point of order here. We read all this via the print media who are liars. Unless the words are heard on live TV I think we need to blame the media first for fukin round with people's statements. JMT

Shivji, the folks above didn't need to make those statements. They were attributed and continued their petty bickering which the MSM gave them a handle to.

From the ops perspective
This time around unlike 26/11, no delay whatsoever in prepositioning troops. Proper use of intel gear to pinpoint terrorists. Use of disproportionate force as required (BMPs, RLs etc). Multiple agencies coordinated & got things done with zero MSM ability to cause casualties (I still remember Gajendra Singh's loss after deploying troops from Mi-17 were shown).

On the negative side, Punjab Police/drug issue is a glaring one. Huge amount of time lost. Despite this NSA & services made sure troops & folks were ordered out within hours of the alert. The loss of Col Niranjan. The loss of DSC folks showing there were still areas the terrorists got in (vulnerability has to be thought of beyond strategic assets and even combat personnel need to be sensitized). Many agencies since we lack SOCOM/JSOC style formations with C3I.

All said & done, the speed of response on our side, adjusting things as ops went on, made things OK. And in real life, that's always going to be the case. No perfect SOP can be devised for all situations.

Basic issue is us fighting on our own soil and reacting. We have lost the initiative there itself. Rest is ipso facto IMO.

[SRoy]

GoI has to make it a policy to undertake covert ops to kill PA/PAF/PAN leadership at mid / senior levels regularly. Mix this with hits at their military facilities. Make it a quarterly event.

On our side, every airman and sailor has to be an infantryman as well.

Spoke to serving and ex in family and friends ... feedback is full marks to the DSC guys. NSG loss is bit odd. Overall a good response from IAF/IA/NSG.

We can ignore politically biased Generals and arms dealer Colonels (my dads remark).

>>

One general remark, don't trust the local police. Take it for what it is worth, it has come from close kins and friends that are serving.

[rajanb]

>>>>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 476559.cms

Operation Dhangu!!

CHANDIGARH: The Army on Wednesday justified the deployment of NSG in the operation against the six terrorists at the Pathankot airbase, saying that the three service chiefs had taken the call jointly so that the elite combat force could deal with any hostage crisis in the airbase which had around 3,000 family members of IAF personnel and 23 trainees from four foreign countries at the time of the attack.

Critics have questioned why NSG commandos were flown in from Delhi on January 2 when a large number of Army commandos were available in the border city itself.

Commander of the Army's Western Command Lt Gen K J Singh said the NSG was deployed as it is a force specially trained to deal with a hostage crisis. Apart from family members, 23 trainees from Afghanistan, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Myanmar were at the airbase when terrorists struck.

Singh said the strategic forward airbase of the IAF at Pathankot remained fully functional all through the 'Operation Dhangu', the codename given to the mission to eliminate the terrorists.

IAF planes carried out routine sorties in the border areas for surveillance, communication and reconnaissance, he added. Dhangu is the name of the village where the airbase has been established.

"Their purpose (of the attack) was to keep the strategic airbase out of action or to destroy its high value assets but they could not succeed in any of their motives. We have not only saved our high-value assets of airbase but it also continued to function and carry out sorties as was done in normal days," said Lt Gen Singh who led the army troops in the operation.

He said the operation went on for three days because the area was difficult and close to the family quarters of IAF personnel.

Security personnel did not want collateral damage at the Air Force station, he added. Calibrated use of minimum firepower was done to avoid unnecessary causalities and to save strategic assets of the airbase.

The terrorists remained dormant for an average 8-10 hours and the troops had to wait to fire upon them.

On January 3, when two terrorists had entered the barracks inside the airbase, six IAF personnel were stuck on the first floor of the building, Lt Gen Singh said. The commandos rappelled down to the building roof, broke the window on the first floor and evacuated IAF men. Thereafter the building was demolished with the help of IEDs to neutralise the terrorists.

According to the Army , the terrorists were carrying high velocity grenades having capacity to damage tanks. Besides that, army also recovered wire cutters, radio sets, a pamphlet of Jaish-e-Muhammed and other sophisticated weaponry .

[/quote]

that is the result of some political bosses saving their own butts and applying the old and familiar tatta squeeze on the ever available fall guys.

one part seems true bacause it has come up in other forums too

sagnik chowdhury ‏@sagnik_c Jan 4

Pathankot terrorists were using modified AK-47s. Not with UBGLs, but something akin to mortar launchers @IndianExpress

<<<<
I agree with you.
a) that we saved assets, was a fabulous job.
b) That we lost lives unnecessarily, was a shitty job. That within hours we did not have highly experienced army personnel ringing the perimeter including the ****** drain (as people seem to suggest could have been an ingress point)
c) That we haven't learnt from the years of being hassled. WE never know of any retaliation. "A quote about how Bakistan will lose Baloch if they act funny with us." (Available on the net for lazy armchair generals)
d) While the whole world knows where the attack originated from, no one knows what our response will be.
e) No snipers on private housing overlooking the perimeter walls.
f) IT IS NOT ABOUT POLITICS. It is about valuing Indian lives which we have never done.

At least SHFJ Maneckshaw had the guts to tell Indira Gandhi it will take him 3 months.

remember the tepid idiocy of Operation Brasstacks.
The illness is deeper. It is about the idiots who run operations from Delhi.
How was the operation declared as closed and then retracted?
As a citizen, I demand excellence in governance.


e) It was a very valid point, our soft approach during UPA II, for the current majority government, whom I have labelled as UPA III

[Karan M]

>>We can ignore politically biased Generals and arms dealer Colonels (my dads remark).

SRoy - very interesting.. so more and more folks are aware of some folks proclivities? That reduces their propaganda efforts..

[Anujan]

So much energies spent on debating
1. If calling NSG is a good idea
2. Was there coordination
3. Is DSC capable
4. What's the use of Garuds anyway
5. How could the terrorists breach perimeter
6. Was Shri Doval micromanaging
7. Why did it take so long

If I were running a disinformation campaign, I would ask all these questions first to set the tone for the debates so all energies are expended debating this rather than

1. Why did Pakis do this so soon after Modiji's visit which indicated talks were about to be started
2. Does Badmash know and is playing a double game or is he just Mayor of Isloo and has no control over whatever TFTAs want
3. Badmash's brother is CM of Pakjab. How can huge terror training camps exist in his state without him knowing
4. What's up with the drug trade. Who are the fronts and behinds of it?

If you look at Paki twitter and even articles by so called moderates like the Pak tea house guy, I can sum it up with a story.

Imagine you live in a house, you visit the neighbours house for dinner and the fellow comes over and burns your place. Then the Paki (and our own DDM) gather around and ask.

1. Why didn't you see him setting fire
2. What took you so long to put out the fire
3. Why did the house catch fire? Why did you use wooden doors?
4. Why weren't fire extinguishers stored in easy reach? Why didn't you use Abdul brand extinguisher instead of Ayesha brand which is less effective?
5. Why are there so many trees around the house which limits visibility?
6. Hey by the way, you need to have good relations with your neighbors so do invite the guy over for dinner sometime and don't be upset about this incident too much.


Clouds us from asking the real question

"WHY DID THE NEIGHBOUR MOFO SET THE HOUSE ON FIRE AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE SURE HE DOESNT DO IT AGAIN"

[SRoy]

Karan,

Dad is ex-IAF, so ... was also in AFS Pathankot once. Naturally he is pi$$ed off with Shukla's tripe.

[Vayutuvan]

Do we need something like this on the IB at Punjab and other places next to Pakistan.

One disadvantage with a wall is that it blocks your view of what's going on on the other side, of course it works both ways.

Can drones be used? Of course if it is across the border, it would deemed violating their air space during peacetime.

[Karan M]

LOL so joint chiefs taking a joint call on deploying the NSG and even specifying it is

that is the result of some political bosses saving their own butts and applying the old and familiar tatta squeeze on the ever available fall guys.

unbiased...demand for ...excellence in governance indeed..

so now Joint chiefs are "fall guys" and their "tattas can be squeezed".. much respect for the armed forces there.

and what next

e) No snipers on private housing overlooking the perimeter walls.

So 20+ km of the perimeter walls should all have snipers around them.. how many Snipers does NSG have, can our expert tell us? including how many teams were deployed in 26/11 even by public sources?

"A quote about how Bakistan will lose Baloch if they act funny with us." (Available on the net for lazy armchair generals)

And our not so lazy, couch colonels can obviously tell us if covert ops even if begun today, will be available for everyone to see in public or even admitted by India publicly..

not about politics indeed.. hence all the comments about 56 inch this, VK Singh & so forth.

rest is similar bunk.

[chetak]

the days of having numbers in your age is long gone. extensions are pretty hard to come by these days. only good clean ACRs and proven capability help. If anyone has these two in hand , WTF would they stick around in the service?? They already have their pensions anyway. Most extension seekers are handicapped by the lack of the two above mentioned attributes.

The thrust of the generals analysis is spot on but however, his rantings against doval may not be widely subscribed to. All are not avid doval supporters like me. no body in this govt, minister or babu is willing to cross doval. that very fear may lead to a vaccum in contingencies like this when everyone is sniffing the wind to see which way it is blowing. The home secy made a cameo appearance just on one day and was never seen again because, he quite simply, was out of his depth. was he out buying groceries when he inadvertently blundered into the press conference?? doval himself must have been very , very busy coordinating a hundred different things. proper delegation to local authorities just did not seem to happen. Akali dal bosses were protecting their own political turf and queered the pitch whereby the punjab police was hamstrung and so they much delayed their crucial inputs to decision makers.

Dude, you seriously don't know any IA folks who applied for extension. I know people who went to civic (with good CTC), then applied for IA service extension and got it twice. This is two year old story. And that is just one case I am talking about. Please don't generalize.

I will reiterate my point, berating DSC and their capabilities is not in our interest. They are good at what they are being hired for. Until they hang their uniform they are all professional soldiers.

You will replace DSC today, then whats next? CISF? CRPF? BSF? Replace all of them with SF because they don't look TFTA or not part of a defense arm which a retd. general used to command?

By army standard all of these paramilitary troops are rag-tag, no?

the paramilitary forces like ITBP, BSF etc are as tough and as well trained.

Some other paramilitary forces are not as extensively trained because their job description does not require/warrant such continuous, intense and very expensive training as well as the costly maintenance of the keen battle ready edge.

I have worked in the forces, worked outside, met people from all services who were extended and those who were not allowed to extend. I helped many of them who left to get a job because it was in my good fortune to have access to create such openings. Almost all my staff were and currently are ex military.

I am not generalizing.

The guidelines for extensions are rigidly formulated and even more ruthlessly implemented. At my level of filtering, in the service, I had to turn down many dozens of requests for extensions. Both by officers and men. It made me feel bad, momentarily. We all moved on.

Of course, many contested such decisions and did not agree with me or even other similarly placed officers on the refusals but I cannot recall a single instance where such decisions were overturned.

I have of course known/heard of officers with political patti, who got what they wanted. Shit happens.

The DSC are professional soldiers but with known limited capabilities and are accepted as such for specialized duties. no one is berating them in any way.

[chetak]

people are always going to make snide comments. That's why we are a democracy. suck it up and move on.

So do you suck it up and move on when barking mutt or the rest of the press gang makes snide comments on all sorts of topics? or isnt it that you can see through the propaganda and your skepticism kicks in about how these people deliberately run down indian capability and intent.

much the same this time around, running down an indian success in avoiding a major terrorist success and devaluing the indian armed forces and their deterrence capability?

why give these jokers a free pass, why should we?

if they can make snide comments and stupid comparisons, then they can bear similar heat as well and don't need a defense either.

no one on the forum is saying the the op was a failure because it certainly was not but it certainly could have been managed better using past experiences that should have resulted in a better process by now

what the various analyses is trying to achieve/suggest is that there has to be a better process. lessons should have been learned from 26/11, other attacks in panjab, casmhere etc, the same internalized and by now a better and standardized process should have been evolved to respond to such situations.

we have improvised and managed to contain every situation so far but our luck can and will only stretch so far.

The terrorists have to succeed spectacularly only and only once where as the IA and the GOI have to succeed every single time.

if the terrorists succeed spectacularly only once, the weight of public opinion and the opposition outcry may even cause the govt to fall and then the congis and all the other nut jobs will sweep the ensuing elections.

all very well, and those points need to be made in a civil manner. not calling garuds poorly trained and DSC rag tag or implying IA is about much better than NSG and NSG are a bunch of bumblers merely because they go to MHA and what not.

petty bickering in public is not expected by folks at a certain level.

the general's mail may not have been meant for public consumption.

added later:

who called the NSG bumblers?? almost all of the NSG troops are IA troops on voluntary deputation to the NSG. They all go back to the IA after the completion of their tenures.

I have seen some of these guys, very very lucratively employed as armed professional bodyguards for civilian industry honchos, almost like a status symbol.

all of the ex NSG guys have very lucrative avenues awaiting them.

Spoken to some of them and they were all unfailingly gracious and polite. These guys were pulling down seriously big bucks.

[Karan M]

GoI has to make it a policy to undertake covert ops to kill PA/PAF/PAN leadership at mid / senior levels regularly. Mix this with hits at their military facilities. Make it a quarterly event.

On our side, every airman and sailor has to be an infantryman as well.

Spoke to serving and ex in family and friends ... feedback is full marks to the DSC guys. NSG loss is bit odd. Overall a good response from IAF/IA/NSG.

We can ignore politically biased Generals and arms dealer Colonels (my dads remark).

>>

One general remark, don't trust the local police. Take it for what it is worth, it has come from close kins and friends that are serving.

Very interesting.. reminds one of Camp Bastion attack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September ... stion_raid

Some of the pilots and maintainers from VMA-211 also fought as infantrymen, killing one attacker and injuring another who was trying to fire an RPG at a group defending the flight line. This was the first time the squadron had fought as infantry since the Battle of Wake Island, when most of their planes had been destroyed in a surprise Japanese attack.[6] Marines from VMM-161 killed one group of five Taliban with small arms fire as they tried to advance down the flightline area. A second group of five insurgents was flushed out of hiding hours later and shot by No. 51 Squadron RAF Regiment and USMC forces in a compound near their entry point. [7] The final group of five insurgents was detected near the flightline hours later and four were killed by gunfire from the RAF Quick Reaction Force and hovering helicopters. The fifth insurgent was injured and captured.[8]

..

And the state forces issue is going to remain in Punjab for a while judging by reports.

[Karan M]

So much energies spent on debating
1. If calling NSG is a good idea
2. Was there coordination
3. Is DSC capable
4. What's the use of Garuds anyway
5. How could the terrorists breach perimeter
6. Was Shri Doval micromanaging
7. Why did it take so long

If I were running a disinformation campaign, I would ask all these questions first to set the tone for the debates so all energies are expended debating this rather than

1. Why did Pakis do this so soon after Modiji's visit which indicated talks were about to be started
2. Does Badmash know and is playing a double game or is he just Mayor of Isloo and has no control over whatever TFTAs want
3. Badmash's brother is CM of Pakjab. How can huge terror training camps exist in his state without him knowing
4. What's up with the drug trade. Who are the fronts and behinds of it?

If you look at Paki twitter and even articles by so called moderates like the Pak tea house guy, I can sum it up with a story.

Imagine you live in a house, you visit the neighbours house for dinner and the fellow comes over and burns your place. Then the Paki (and our own DDM) gather around and ask.

1. Why didn't you see him setting fire
2. What took you so long to put out the fire
3. Why did the house catch fire? Why did you use wooden doors?
4. Why weren't fire extinguishers stored in easy reach? Why didn't you use Abdul brand extinguisher instead of Ayesha brand which is less effective?
5. Why are there so many trees around the house which limits visibility?
6. Hey by the way, you need to have good relations with your neighbors so do invite the guy over for dinner sometime and don't be upset about this incident too much.


Clouds us from asking the real question

"WHY DID THE NEIGHBOUR MOFO SET THE HOUSE ON FIRE AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE SURE HE DOESNT DO IT AGAIN"

+100

Exactly.

[rajanb]

I wouldn't blame the Armed Forces chiefs.
Unless they are politically appointed?

Camp Bastion attack?
So we do not set our own standards?
We compare? Do you even comprehend the term excellence?
A country with millennia of history and knowledge, stoops to compare with Camp Bastion?