Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analysis-I

habal · Post by **habal** » 08 Jan 2016 15:23

what is this markaj ? where is this place.
If it is 'markaz' that they are referring to then markaz is parent body of LeT. Also markaz can be a meeting place. tablighi markaz, Sunni markaz,

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Jan 2016 15:51

When Tri-service SOD is raised, I truly hope that 77 squadron is part of it. If it were in existence today Operation Dhangu would have definitely come to its lap.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 491361.cms

CHANDIGARH: Veiled Vipers — a squadron of the Indian Air Force (IAF) having C-130 Hercules aircraft — was also used in 'Operation Dhangu' for combing the sprawling Pathankot airfield spread over 2,000 acres when six Jaish-e-Mohammad terrorists had attacked the crucial base.
The versatile C-130, equipped with infrared detection sensors that help in long-range navigation and surveillance, was used for the first time in such an operation.

...

According to IAF officials, C-130 Hercules aircraft of IAF's 77 Squadron codenamed 'Veiled Vipers', which had landed at Pathankot with the National Security Guard (NSG) commandos and their equipment, was pressed into the service to find human elements in the vacant land having large number of bushes with the help of thermal imaging and multi-sensor surveillance system. The giant aircraft flew several sorties and circled over the airbase to check the possibility of terrorists hiding in dense bushes on the vacant airfield area. It was also used during low visibility at the airbase, as the aircraft had night vision imaging facility.

Customized for covert special operations, the C-130 Hercules planes are capable of landing at makeshift, short runways and blackout conditions. According to senior IAF officers, the aircraft was utilized because it was not possible for the troops to sanitize or examine physically such large area having dense bushes and trees inside the airbase in a short time.

Veiled Vipers squadron with the motto 'Kill with Stealth', signifying the capability of the aircraft to undertake deployment of special forces in all-weather conditions, is based at Hindon in Ghaziabad district of Uttar Pradesh.

Six giant multi-purpose aircrafts were inducted into IAF in 2011 after a deal with the US. One such aircraft crashed in March 2014 near Gwalior. Two aircrafts are also expected to be deployed from Hindon to IAF's another airbase at Panagarh in Burdwan district of West Bengal by May 2016.
Besides the C-130 Hercules, the IAF authorities had retaliated during operation with its MI-25 attack helicopter from the "Gladiators" squadron. It was for the first time that MI-25 was used in active operation in India. Earlier, these attack choppers were used by the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) in Jaffna (Sri Lanka) from October 1987 to March 1990.

For records, Akbars participated in "Operation Peace" as well (Myanmar special op). Even if they did not fire in anger, it must have been worthwhile to fly it all the way to the East!

This Mi-35 chopper was one of five flying in the direction of the Manipur-Myanmar border near Haflong on June 6. (Biju Boro/HT Photo)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 16:05

Above is news report which we DONT need. We DONT need to know veiled vipers were used with TI systems. Next time around what happens when Pak invests in some advanced ghillie type suit with anti IR capability and sends a few SSG guys across?
Why the f.. are we so blase about actually bragging about capabilities ... all that was required was:
- all resources were used by IAF/IA to find and fix terrorists. That's it. Done, dusted.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Jan 2016 16:13

A lot was done during this operation and we may never know full details. Only details I have to know is how many we killed in retaliation. That is all.

member_29218 · Post by **member_29218** » 08 Jan 2016 16:35

Karan M wrote:Above is news report which we DONT need. We DONT need to know veiled vipers were used with TI systems. Next time around what happens when Pak invests in some advanced ghillie type suit with anti IR capability and sends a few SSG guys across?
Why the f.. are we so blase about actually bragging about capabilities ... all that was required was:
- all resources were used by IAF/IA to find and fix terrorists. That's it. Done, dusted.

+100

I sometimes wonder if we at BRF are actually shooting ourself in the foot discussing the detailed capabilities of our forces and counter-insurgency units in an open forum which I am sure is actively monitored by the Paki establishment.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 08 Jan 2016 16:41

primus ji..dont fly so much on hot gas!! the pakis do well know what the C 130 can do and cant do. no body is as dumb. they have a fairly good fix on the capabilities and this is why its important to have indigenous products. local R&D.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 08 Jan 2016 17:38

Karan M wrote:Above is news report which we DONT need. We DONT need to know veiled vipers were used with TI systems. Next time around what happens when Pak invests in some advanced ghillie type suit with anti IR capability and sends a few SSG guys across?
Why the f.. are we so blase about actually bragging about capabilities ... all that was required was:
- all resources were used by IAF/IA to find and fix terrorists. That's it. Done, dusted.

Nitin Gokhale had tweeted that govt should debrief media regularly. Lack of information leads to speculates: "If facts not given fiction will prevail".

I mean seriously. Why this khujali of writing something or the other no matter whether you have info or not?? And why this khujali of having all the info?? Next media will want to be in the war room telecasting strategy discussions live.

Its high time GoI learn the "information war" tactics. Put only one mouth piece in front of the public who will give out only limited info until any such operation is over. Anything and everything that does not come from this person be disavowed/rejected. Stop the leakages/plug the gaps from where sensitive info is getting out. Weed out all bhai-bhatijas of journos who are leaking info to them. Classify such info as matter of national security and leaking it or publishing it be made criminal offence.

This will not stop the rona-dhona and armchair-giri by the 'usual suspects' but at least there will be a better picture put up in front of the nation and the world without any more details than needed to be known by them.

In one of the graphics they pointed out where is missile defense system located?? Now why is that necessary?? Even if its open secrete, you don't need to make things easier for the enemy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 18:03

Nilesh, agree completely. The media has gone apeshit with its arrogance. Yes the Govt should provide periodic, basic updates but there is no need to discuss or detail methods and specifics.

We DONT need to know that the IAF used x asset in y way during any event.

Its pure stupidity to reveal all this. Yes, IAF may have z drone and l imager. There is a difference in stating its there and that it was used in y way by the IAF effectively.

In first case, the opponent is left guessing. So how did they detect our boys? Was it a dog barking? Was it a man who saw them get over the fence?

Instead, here we have media reports bragging:

UAV saw them
Mi-35s sensors were used
TI on C-130 used

Yaaay

The opponent says "aha, these guys used TI against us effectively this time around...so....".

There is a huge difference between notionally having a capability & effectively using it.

What's happened is the exact opposite of information war thanks to the Modi govts inability to deal with a hostile, near treasonous media.

They are cooking up facts & then forcing the services & well wishers to then release info in a sort of defensive way "hey, hey we weren't incompetent, we did this and this and this..".

High time the GOI danda is used against barking mutt and the entire gang of "grandmother crossed the LOC" crooks

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Jan 2016 18:04

Shaun wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Shaun: Thanks for the information. If it is not too much, please link the source of this information that at time of first contact NSG was tasked with guarding technical area. So, to understand correctly, there were 150 NSG at the base, 900-1000 Army men but 12 Garuds were sent to make first contact? Is that correct?
Well , do you think , the whole contingent of NSG , ARMY and GARUD , will chant AOA and charge those pigs ???!!!!!!!
Every one have a specific duty to perform. As per information , after those pigs were spotted , GARUDS were sent to neutralize them.

You are trying to read my mind. I do not think anything at this stage, am just an external observer of a decision made, if above is true. I do not have the knowledge or experience to determine the course of action ought to be taken and all the factors involved that a commander has to take into account. At this time, only trying to understand the details of the operations. Please do not jump to conclusions of what I am thinking. Another poster said it was 6 Garuds not 12 who made contact?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 18:13

A sketchy account with lovely pics.

Here's how NSG Commandos neutralized the Pathankot terrorists

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Jan 2016 18:23

Just read on FB. While one Garud died. His partner took 6 bullets continued fighting and held his post. Preventing the terrorist from entering the technical area. He is out of surgery and danger now

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 18:38

rkhanna wrote:Just read on FB. While one Garud died. His partner took 6 bullets continued fighting and held his post. Preventing the terrorist from entering the technical area. He is out of surgery and danger now

Yes. I posted his pics in hospy on fb. Touch wood. he is quickly recovering. Thank heavens. One family less to grieve.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 18:44

Heres my rough understanding of what went on based on a scan of reports. Correlating them with maps etc will work better.

NSG troops involved, around 160. Garud, UK. IA troops around 1000

1. 4 Terrorists get into the base via a perimeter fence where the lights are not working (suspected sabotage, insider work). Make their way into the base but are detected & can't get into technical area (where aircraft etc are kept) because of Garuds.
DSC area abuts technical area.
2. Garuds sent to intercept, 3 groups + DSC. Sub Gursewak Singh martyred, 1 terrorist wounded (?), run off towards MES area. Possibly Sub Fateh Singh killed here initial exchange of fire. So pigs now run into DSC area.
3. On the way firefight at DSC mess, where cooks are preparing breakfast. Heaviest casualties here, but Sub Chand wrestles the gun and kills one of the pigs
4. Caught/Daylighted in a limited area, these guys are finished off. Reports note mix of NSG, IA troops all did the job.
5. However one of the bodies was booby trapped & Lt Col Niranjan was killed & several other NSG troops wounded
6. Combing operations continue. 2 more rats are detected. These rats are found to have entered the base via a drain which linked to one of the branches of river leading to base.
7. These barricade themselves into a MES structure with steel doors. Combined force of NSG/Garud/IA whacks them & NSG delivers coup de grace.

The above is why I objected to Shri Panags depiction of DSC as a rag tag force. That rag tag force stood up when counted, and even took down a terrorist in unarmed combat. Their contribution needs to be recognized IMHO.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 08 Jan 2016 18:45

ShauryaT wrote:You are trying to read my mind. I do not think anything at this stage, am just an external observer of a decision made, if above is true. I do not have the knowledge or experience to determine the course of action ought to be taken and all the factors involved that a commander has to take into account. At this time, only trying to understand the details of the operations. Please do not jump to conclusions of what I am thinking. Another poster said it was 6 Garuds not 12 who made contact?

Sir ,Yes i did realize that it was a mistake and i am sorry about that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2016 19:00

1900 acres is huge. IIT Kanpur is 1100 acres and it felt so big even using a bicycle. a batallion of elephants could disappear into forested area in a campus that big.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 19:00

Now as to objections, whatfor, whyfor why not enough & so forth.

Helps to have rough idea of base.

20+ km. Huge challenge by itself.

First axiom of deployment, concentrate your force. Penny packet deployments weaken them & hence terrorists aim of maximizing casualties may be done here itself.

IOW, with time frame given, while IA could have saturated the place with troops, in absence of bunkers or tanks, they would still be vulnerable (using IFVs and tanks as mobile pillboxes is not ideal but still),

Possibility is to create chokepoints manned by troops but again, terrain has to cooperate & also trained soldiers can bypass.

What was deployment.
IA 1000 troops, split across AFB & also 2 columns (60-100 men each - outside the base).
NSG concentrated in the two areas most likely to be very vulnerable if terrorists get in (ie time is of the essence). Technical area (aircraft), and family/residential quarters.

This prepositioning reflects solid common sense. The NSG is available instantly & does not have to be sent in after the fact, also by virtue of being prepositioned they know the terrain better.

IMO, the only thing (apart from who controls the ops etc debate) that would have made a serious tangible difference is huge deployment of IA within the base, but then again, its hindsight & deploying men in haphazard fashion can also cause more issues (more troops deployed without proper basing/infra/foxholes/bunkers) --> more casualties.

Looking at the above op, the NSA/service chiefs clearly came to 3 conclusions:

1. Attack can occur anytime, no time to waste, deploy what you have immediately
2. Assume worst case - terrorists already in, or attack anytime, hence hostage situation a given. NSG is first choice. Or technical area may be breached - explosives in significant amount a risk. Again, NSG is the team with integrated bomb disposal kit & hence "easy answer".
3. They didn't consider it feasible or worthwhile to flood the entire place with troops. This can be quibbled with - but as noted above, that may not be the ideal answer either.

IMO, there are more issues w/Pathankot that need to be fixed.

1.Insider sabotage - non working floodlights only in 1 stretch
2.Punjab Police SPs BS and Punjab Polices BS response. This ONE issue almost caused a complete disaster. Note timeline. Within some 2 hours NSA+ Service chiefs made preps, within some 3 hours troops started coming into the base, preparations were done but that's a loss of 12+ hours from when the incident was first detected (SP abduction).
3. What we lost was the initiative. It became a "hunker down and wait for the storm" sort of thing, from "we could make this into an ambush and evacuate everyone". In a few hours, you cannot evacuate 1000+ families (plus on the way they may get targeted). But if you had an entire day, a lot more could have been done.
4. Base (in) security. Gujjar Muslims happily squatting on base periphery, entering it as they wish. Not good. Will be an issue for other bases in India too.
5. SOP for dealing with such incidents. IA SF & Garud & Marcos NSG combined teams need to be drilled together or we need a basic SOP for each and every AFB in India with each formation dealing with it marked out and trained accordingly.
6. Also Red Teams to constantly "break" base defenses and open them up. These teams have to be insulated from blowback and also bases which fail, their leaders should not be targeted unless very pathetic prep, otherwise spirit of cooperation will disappear.
7. Earlier protection standards (circa WW2) need to be dropped. We may need to ramp up investments in both lethal and non lethal perimeter defenses eg mines and ground sensors.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 19:03

Karan M wrote:
Prasad wrote:Couple of questions that come to mind reading various versions of what happened -
Why didn't they use more infantry to guard the base? A handful Garuds, DSC personnel (numbers?) and 168 NSG to guard a sprawling base seems inadequate given that you would need to engage anyone entering at the perimeter itself rather than let them in and fight inside. (Hindsight I know but when 2 cols were deployed, why not more?)
When base as target was identified, were the surrounding civilian areas under lock-down with police and/or military patrols done? Even at night. Not saying this would've definitely id'd the buggers outside itself but still. Another layer.
Around a 1000 Army soldiers were also deployed to the base.

Source please?

And yet the first contact was with unfortunate DSC?

The timing of the deployment is crucial. When?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 19:14

Rajan B, i think it was in one of the multiple threads .. let me dig it out. There are reports which state 9 columns of soldiers to begin with & more later. Wide variability in numbers reported.. some report 300 soldiers (@25-30 per column), others ~1000 (indicating a column @ company strength).

Eitherways, 1000 or more, I think for a 1600 acre "campus", an entire brigade would have been required.

Why NSG was deployed

Asked why the National Security Guard (NSG) was deployed when the army was based next door, he replied, “The NSG, Army, Garuda Commandoes of the air force and air force personnel were involved in the action. The decision to deploy NSG was taken at the top level which included the service chiefs.”

“They (NSG) were deployed because strategic assets were involved. There could be a hostage situation as 11,000 people are living inside the base. Usually, air base becomes out of action in such situations, but here it remained fully functional. The air force was able to carry out surveillance sorties,” he clarified.

“I saw an excellent synergy between the forces. IG of NSG was my General Officer Commanding in 26 division. DIG of NSG was also in the Army before his deputation.”

The Western Command had deployed 9 columns of soldiers with 7 inside, which included SF unit, and 2 outside. There was a platoon of Infantry Fighting Vehicles, a bomb disposal squad, 9 mine protected vehicles, air evacuation unit and also the hospital was made ready to deal with emergency. “There was a military hospital just right outside the air base and there was no death after a casualty reached hospital.”

At present, Western Command has deployed two mine protected vehicles, two columns of soldiers, one bomb disposal squad and one dog squad.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ar ... DYf2I.html

About timing, that part is at least clear. It was early morning way past midnight when the firing began.

About first contact with the first group of 4 - either DSC+ Garud then the attack at the DSC mess, or DSC mess then DSC+Garud.

These guys broke in and then trekked across to get to the tech area but the DSC portion was in the way. So either they were challenged & broke the firefight OR they saw an easy target (DSC mess) and gave away their presence.

Now, assuming they were well drilled and not idiots, it could well be these guys were the deliberate distraction (first 4). The other 2 were to actually get to the tech area and hit the "soft targets" while these 4 caused chaos and attracted all the attention.

Note other 2 were caught later and they had gone into hiding..I would err on the side of caution and assume this was a deliberate strategy.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Jan 2016 19:25

"If facts not given fiction will prevail"

Silence is an option. A good one too.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 19:42

My information is different.
Mr Ajit Doval asked for 50 troops. Then when finally the seriousness (and a lot has been posted about how the Intel was handled) hit him. he asked for 150 more.
And the, sad part is, there were disagreements on who should command. Delhi sent NSG when we had battalions of experienced troops down the road, 10 minutes away?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 19:49

I don't know where and what those sources are from, but all credible reports, directly quoting senior folks involved with the ops, contradict them in that they state the troops were deployed in a methodical fashion.

The reason for NSG has been posted repeatedly. The base has significant residential quarters & the service chiefs & NSA decided the NSG was the best group to address any potential HRT issue.

So those sources need to go and tell Mr KJ Singh on how to wage war. As regards command, I'd take KJ Singh at his word over what media "analysts" report. Or those sources doubt his integrity as well.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ar ... DYf2I.html

Why NSG was deployed

Asked why the National Security Guard (NSG) was deployed when the army was based next door, he replied, “The NSG, Army, Garuda Commandoes of the air force and air force personnel were involved in the action. The decision to deploy NSG was taken at the top level which included the service chiefs.”

“They (NSG) were deployed because strategic assets were involved. There could be a hostage situation as 11,000 people are living inside the base. Usually, air base becomes out of action in such situations, but here it remained fully functional. The air force was able to carry out surveillance sorties,” he clarified.

“I saw an excellent synergy between the forces. IG of NSG was my General Officer Commanding in 26 division. DIG of NSG was also in the Army before his deputation.”

The Western Command had deployed 9 columns of soldiers with 7 inside, which included SF unit, and 2 outside. There was a platoon of Infantry Fighting Vehicles, a bomb disposal squad, 9 mine protected vehicles, air evacuation unit and also the hospital was made ready to deal with emergency. “There was a military hospital just right outside the air base and there was no death after a casualty reached hospital.”

At present, Western Command has deployed two mine protected vehicles, two columns of soldiers, one bomb disposal squad and one dog squad.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Jan 2016 19:54

And we are still discussing "how to react when you are getting raped by a known convict"! Still finding fault within.

When we will discuss "how to prosecute a known rape convict"??

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 08 Jan 2016 19:58

Nawaz does not disappoint Modi.

ABP News (@abpnewstv) tweeted at 8:11 PM on Fri, Jan 08, 2016:

Proofs given by India not enough: Pak sources
(https://twitter.com/abpnewstv/status/68 ... 08640?s=03)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 20:00

Sid

Some folks are stuck on finding fault with Doval, Modi, NSG, Delhi etc etc

Can just dig out what facts we have from credible folks - IA jarnails etc.

Rest is upto them..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 20:04

Chinmayanand wrote:Nawaz does not disappoint Modi.

ABP News (@abpnewstv) tweeted at 8:11 PM on Fri, Jan 08, 2016:

Proofs given by India not enough: Pak sources
(https://twitter.com/abpnewstv/status/68 ... 08640?s=03)

So now we have gone through the standard Indian PM process, IG with Bhutto, ABV and Modi with Nawaz, RG with Bhutto jr... and we all realize Pak PMs are a bunch of snivelling jerks or two timers.. what next? Before her death, IG had activated moral and diplomatic support to oppressed Baloch and Sindhis.. now it should be Modi et al's turn.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Jan 2016 20:07

Four terrorists were definitely a decoy of sorts. They seem like amateures (or deliberately) leaving behind witnesses and making calls that were going to be intercepted. The other two were to be the main attackers of high value targets and were able to sneak-in undetected and lay low for a long period of time. There may have been additional cells (like for instance reports of two suspicious men in army fatigue asking around for location of army base) but they seem to have fizzled out once security tightened all across the whole region.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jan 2016 20:10

Karan M wrote:
These guys broke in and then trekked across to get to the tech area but the DSC portion was in the way. So either they were challenged & broke the firefight OR they saw an easy target (DSC mess) and gave away their presence.

If these guys had come to hit IAF assets, then the DSC event was an error. Of course call to mummy speaks volumes about level of training. More likely, they were spotted and had to shoot their way out. Still they lost one bhench*d Pakistani Islamic terrorist because of a brave unarmed man.

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 08 Jan 2016 20:17

I have question in my mind.. Pics of those 4 pigs were posted on BRF few days ago. After looking at those pics again I am having some serious doubts. How come a booby trap blast so powerful that it almost ripped of half the face and both hands of Lt Col Niranjan, blew away hand of another NSG commando and injured 4 others left the body of pig without any scratch??

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 20:18

Karan M wrote:I don't know where and what those sources are from, but all credible reports, directly quoting senior folks involved with the ops, contradict them in that they state the troops were deployed in a methodical fashion.

The reason for NSG has been posted repeatedly. The base has significant residential quarters & the service chiefs & NSA decided the NSG was the best group to address any potential HRT issue.

So those sources need to go and tell Mr KJ Singh on how to wage war. As regards command, I'd take KJ Singh at his word over what media "analysts" report. Or those sources doubt his integrity as well.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ar ... DYf2I.html

Why NSG was deployed

Asked why the National Security Guard (NSG) was deployed when the army was based next door, he replied, “The NSG, Army, Garuda Commandoes of the air force and air force personnel were involved in the action. The decision to deploy NSG was taken at the top level which included the service chiefs.”

“They (NSG) were deployed because strategic assets were involved. There could be a hostage situation as 11,000 people are living inside the base. Usually, air base becomes out of action in such situations, but here it remained fully functional. The air force was able to carry out surveillance sorties,” he clarified.

“I saw an excellent synergy between the forces. IG of NSG was my General Officer Commanding in 26 division. DIG of NSG was also in the Army before his deputation.”

The Western Command had deployed 9 columns of soldiers with 7 inside, which included SF unit, and 2 outside. There was a platoon of Infantry Fighting Vehicles, a bomb disposal squad, 9 mine protected vehicles, air evacuation unit and also the hospital was made ready to deal with emergency. “There was a military hospital just right outside the air base and there was no death after a casualty reached hospital.”

At present, Western Command has deployed two mine protected vehicles, two columns of soldiers, one bomb disposal squad and one dog squad.

Thanks for the response. HT is as good as TOI. I have my own sources, in person.

on a separate note, I have been called a bhakt too, besides you alluding to me as Congi/AAp.

Because my Contry, BHARAT MATA comes first!

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 20:19

Karan M wrote:
Chinmayanand wrote:Nawaz does not disappoint Modi.

ABP News (@abpnewstv) tweeted at 8:11 PM on Fri, Jan 08, 2016:

Proofs given by India not enough: Pak sources
(https://twitter.com/abpnewstv/status/68 ... 08640?s=03)
So now we have gone through the standard Indian PM process, IG with Bhutto, ABV and Modi with Nawaz, RG with Bhutto jr... and we all realize Pak PMs are a bunch of snivelling jerks or two timers.. what next? Before her death, IG had activated moral and diplomatic support to oppressed Baloch and Sindhis.. now it should be Modi et al's turn.

Playing gilli danda again, aren't we? SICK!

if we expected anything better, welcome to the land of fools paradise. We love being jerked? Ughh.

*toddles orf to have biryani in Lahore"

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 20:24

rajanb wrote: Thanks for the response. HT is as good as TOI. I have my own sources, in person.

Sirji, its not whether HT is as good as TOI wagehra, when I am quoting directly from the source i.e. KJ Singh.

Your sources in person need to go and square their claims with the above gent.

Heres the entire press conference (~10 mins) so its not HT vs TOI vs this vs that
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/patha ... 86230.html

on a separate note, I have been called a bhakt too, besides you alluding to me as Congi/AAp.
Because my Contry, BHARAT MATA comes first!

If that is the case, appreciate a job done & dusted & focus on the big picture..which is the larger PA terror game against India of which this base attack is but merely 1..

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 08 Jan 2016 20:25

habal wrote:what is this markaj ? where is this place.
If it is 'markaz' that they are referring to then markaz is parent body of LeT. Also markaz can be a meeting place. tablighi markaz, Sunni markaz,

According to wiki here and here

It probably refers to Markkaz near Raiwind which in turn is near Lahore :

Raiwind Markaz is a building Complex, consisting the main Mosque, Islamic Madrassa and residential areas) located in the neighourhood of Raiwind city, near Lahore, Pakistan and is the home of the religious movement Tablighi Jamaat in Pakistan.

It is hosted in the Ijitimah Gah near to the Markaz (5 km from Markaz). It is among the biggest gathering of Muslims in Pakistan in a single location. Muslims all around the world came to this place for the Ijitimah, which is planned and managed by the Raiwind Markaz.

Tablighi Jamaat (Urdu: تبلیغی جماعت‎, Tablīghī Jamā‘at; Arabic: جماعة التبليغ‎, Jamā‘at at-Tablīgh; Bengali: তাবলীগ জামাত; Hindi: तबलीग़ी जमात; English: Society for spreading faith) is an Islamic global proselytizing movement.[5] The movement was started in 1927 by Muhammad Ilyas al-Kandhlawi in India,[6] which was the dream of his teacher Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi.[7] It primarily aims at Tablighi spiritual reformation by working at the grass roots level, reaching out to Muslims across social and economic spectra to bring them in line with the group's understanding of Islam.[3][8]

Former Department of Homeland Security Employee Philip Haney described Tablighi Jamaat as part of a "trans-national Islamist network" that was also affiliated with the Dar Al Uloom al Islamiyah mosque in San Bernandino, which terrorist Syed Rizwan Farook attended frequently.[51] Assistant FBI Director Michael Heimbach said "“We have significant presence of Tablighi Jamaat in the United States and we have found that al Qaeda used them for recruiting.”[52]

Tablighi Jamaat has also been connected with a number of other terrorist plots and attacks, including, the Portland Seven, the Lackawanna Six, the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot, the 7/7 London bombings, the 2007 London car bombs, and 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack.[53]

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 20:26

rajanb wrote:Playing gilli danda again, aren't we? SICK!

Don't understand your comment. Kindly clarify.

Ah, saw your edited comment..

if we expected anything better, welcome to the land of fools paradise. We love being jerked? Ughh.

*toddles orf to have biryani in Lahore"

Kindly tell me what you'll have better - are you aware of the actual state of our conventional war fighting capability for an all out conflict & the efforts underway?

Like it or not, covert ops will have the best result (at least in the short term).

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 20:34

Karan M wrote:
rajanb wrote: Thanks for the response. HT is as good as TOI. I have my own sources, in person.
Sirji, its not whether HT is as good as TOI wagehra, when I am quoting directly from the source i.e. KJ Singh.

Your sources in person need to go and square their claims with the above gent.

Heres the entire press conference (~10 mins) so its not HT vs TOI vs this vs that
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/patha ... 86230.html

on a separate note, I have been called a bhakt too, besides you alluding to me as Congi/AAp.
Because my Contry, BHARAT MATA comes first!
If that is the case, appreciate a job done & dusted & focus on the big picture..which is the larger PA terror game against India of which this base attack is but merely 1..

I appreciate a job done and dusted. But! We always have to strive and seek for excellence. Do even better.

I will still stick to my point. Military assets were saved. Unnecessary human assets were lost. Let us blame it on a bumbling bee.

habal · Post by **habal** » 08 Jan 2016 20:36

ldev wrote:
habal wrote:what is this markaj ? where is this place.
If it is 'markaz' that they are referring to then markaz is parent body of LeT. Also markaz can be a meeting place. tablighi markaz, Sunni markaz,
According to wiki here and here

It probably refers to Markkaz near Raiwind which in turn is near Lahore :

Raiwind Markaz is markaz of tablighi jamaat, and tablighi jamaat is not into terror planning and plotting on an open scale.
because that would discredit their main agenda which is to spread dawa.
tablighi jamaat is very careful about image they portray outside the country and they keep pretty long distance from terrorism.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jan 2016 20:39

That point can be attributed to the hindsight of all of us, who were neither leading the ops or involved in those decisions.

All this excellence business sounds good in theory. But at the end of the day, what counts is speed of response & "best is the enemy of good". Or "a stitch in time, saves even the perfect nine".

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 08 Jan 2016 20:42

habal wrote:
Raiwind Markaz is markaz of tablighi jamaat, and tablighi jamaat is not into terror planning and plotting on an open scale.
because that would discredit their main agenda which is to spread dawa.
tablighi jamaat is very careful about image they portray outside the country and they keep pretty long distance from terrorism.

According to the same article:

An article in the Middle East Quarterly noted that because the group avoids media and government notice, operates largely in secrecy, and has missionaries that lead austere lifestyles with principled stands against social ills, many outside observers assume that the group to be "apolitical", such as these three western experts on Islam:

"peaceful and apolitical preaching-to-the-people movement."[54]—Graham Fuller, a former CIA official and an expert on Islam, (author of The Future of Political Islam)

"completely apolitical and law abiding."[55] —Olivier Roy, a prominent authority on Islam at the French National Centre for Scientific Research

"an apolitical, quietist movement of internal grassroots missionary renewal"[9] —Barbara D. Metcalf, University of Michigan, (While comparing its activities to the Alcoholics Anonymous for the efforts to reshape individual lives)

However, the article concludes that these experts have gravely misread Tablighi Jamaat's motives, based on actual experience of the group's actions in Pakistan, as well as its philosophy and transnational goals, including "planned conquest of the world" according to French Tablighi expert Marc Gaborieau.

The article goes on: "for a majority of young Muslim extremists, joining Tablighi Jamaat is the first step on the road to extremism. Perhaps 80 percent of the Islamist extremists in France come from Tablighi ranks, prompting French intelligence officers to call Tablighi Jamaat the 'antechamber of fundamentalism.'"[56][57][58]

The American Foreign Policy Council's report on Tablighi Jamaat states: "The available data today indicates that TJ, at least in the preponderance of locations around the world where it is found, can be considered ipso facto a passive supporter of jihadist groups via its reinforcement of strict Islamic norms, intolerance of other religious traditions and unwavering commitment to Islamizing the entire planet. . . However, its eschewal of politics (at least publicly) has enabled TJ, in most venues, to escape suppression by wary government organs."[59]

Anyway, the issue is that when it comes to terrorism targeted at Western countries the Pakistani Government turns a blind eye to the Groups's activities in Pakistan, but when it comes to India targeted terrorism, the Pakistan Army and ISI provide additional India specific training, intelligence and logistics support.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jan 2016 20:49

Karan M wrote:That point can be attributed to the hindsight of all of us, who were neither leading the ops or involved in those decisions.

All this excellence business sounds good in theory. But at the end of the day, what counts is speed of response & "best is the enemy of good". Or "a stitch in time, saves even the perfect nine".

It sadly, points to a country with a soft underbelly. One will only realise the pain, when one loses a human asset close to them.

Moving on, is the Paki response going to be any different than before?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Jan 2016 20:58

Some more dare from Mia.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 500863.cms

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 08 Jan 2016 21:01

IndiaTodayFLASH
‏@IndiaTodayFLASH

BSF personal arrested for helping arms and drugs smugglers infiltrate in Punjab #PathankotAttack

Arrested BSF jawan Anil Kumar belonged to 52nd Battalion of border security force; was paid upto Rs 50,000 per consignment #PathankotAttack