Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analysis-I

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johneeG
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby johneeG » 11 Jan 2016 09:55

shiv wrote:
habal wrote:do we know for sure they didn't try .. I do not know what intelligence the agencies received, what was their security plan and what contingencies did that plan prevent.

from the direction they entered it seems closest were dsc mess, administrative buildings, then hangars and then civilian quarters. So security in place prevented them from crossing first hurdle.

Of course they tried. And of course security stopped them and killed them before any serious damage could be done. That is, of course the job of security?

If you ask me it was the Pakis who botched the operation. Does anyone have any idea why so many people claim that the Indian security forces botched it? Did they want the terrorists to succeed in getting at vital airbase assets? i mean exactly what failure are people farting about?


1) Terrorists breached border security.
2) terrorists breached air base security and entered despite the alert.
3) terrorists spent 4 days in base causing disruption and loss of life.
4) despite such audacious attack, India has not retaliated so far, thus exposing India's weakness.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby sum » 11 Jan 2016 09:58

Modi didn’t fault NSG deployment

The official said the Prime Minister posed no questions on the decision to deploy the NSG commandos instead of the Army.

Why did repeated takleef with the NSG despite it being clarified again and again by everyone in govt that they were there for hostage situation backup and that is part of their mandate?

Whom did the NSG rub the wrong way that they are being treated as some pariah by all and sundry in the DDM and retd IA brass?

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Amber G. » 11 Jan 2016 10:05

Just for the record.. some responses from US lawmakers..

The new Speaker of the House of Representatives, Paul Ryan tweeted:
Our hearts are with the people of India following the senseless #Pathankot attacks. We stand with you in confronting & defeating terrorism,

His Number 2 in the House, Majority leader Kevin McCarthy:
Praying for the Indian soldiers killed in the #Panthankot attacks. America will continue to stand with our ally #India to fight terrorism.

Some lawmakers have talked about frustration with Pakistan’s perceived lack of action and intent calling Pakistan by name.

Republican House member Ted Poe:

This week’s deadly terrorist attack on the Pathankot airbase is a reminder that our ally India faces the same threat of radical Islamic terrorism, Unfortunately, India’s neighbour Pakistan has provided safe haven to terrorists for years, from shielding Osama bin Laden to backing covert terrorist operations around the world. It is being reported that members of the Pakistani military may have provided training and assistance to the jihadists who attacked India this week.


Some may call it routine, but as an observer here is US, to me, just the number of people called India "friend" or "ally" was quite satisfactory.. (I can not even imagine this happening a few years ago).

Let me add a partial list of strong supporters, both Democrats and Republicans who made statements regarding Pathankot: Ami Bera, Eliot Engel, Steny Hoyer, Tulsi Gabbard, Grace Meng. McCarthy , Poe, Ed Royce, Pete Sessions.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby rkhanna » 11 Jan 2016 10:29

A question for Jingos.

From all my reading on the attack and BR i get the impression that the K-9 Unit Deployed was a EOD/Sniffer Dog.

- NSG DOES have Attack/Tracking K-9 Units as part of ORBAT. Do we know if they were used?

(like this one below)
Image


Recently read a Biography of a USN Seal where he describe an engagement where a SEAL and Ranger Unit assaults a village and the Bulk of Jihadis are waiting for them in ambush in the Forest Surrounding the Village (Astan). Obviously Air ISR (Specters/Predators) are called in to pinpoint Jihadi Hiding in the Wadis and Fog. However prior to Engagement the Seals release Dogs into the Forest who do an outstanding Job of Flanking and Attacking the Hidden jihadis and the Ruckus created gives away the Jihadi positions way before the AirCover comes online. The Dogs btw are also piping Night Vision Video to the Seals before the Assault.

(Ps no animals were hurt in the op but a bunch of Jihadis got their b@lls bitten off)

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Amber G. » 11 Jan 2016 10:37

High level meeting in Pak after NaMo's call..
Image

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby SidSom » 11 Jan 2016 10:45

johneeG wrote:1) Terrorists breached border security.
2) terrorists breached air base security and entered despite the alert.
3) terrorists spent 4 days in base causing disruption and loss of life.
4) despite such audacious attack, India has not retaliated so far, thus exposing India's weakness.


I 100% share Shiv's view that the op was a massive failure from the terrorist side. The most likely strategy was to use the 4 member team as a decoy for the 2 others (who seemed to have the extra explosives). The 4 points listed above are not such great achievements that they can be boasted about. 4 days disruption is not worth all the planning and effort that has gone into this. I think that people do not appreciate the number of 'inputs' that come in to the intelligence folks. There may be 1000s of warnings/inputs being received. The progress we can see is that we have responded in a much shorter time and defeated the main objective of the terrorists. Also a strong counter intelligence mechanism is in place. That is why so many Pak agents are getting caught. We are weeding out. God only knows from when these moles are in place. But now their game is up. Make no mistake we are seeing a gradual revamp of our security apparatus. Had even one hostage been taken the decision to deploy NSG would have been praised. Yes people dont understand a lot of these things, including some exprienced 'defence commentators'.

Coming to the Puppet Sharif, he is incapable of any serious action. If he wants to stay alive and relevant he has to play the 'ISI' game. He does not have a choice. The last time he tried to curtail a Army general, he was sent to exile. You really think he is going to take on the forces again. Rest assured, GoI has to treat GoP and GHQ (Pak) as different entities and engage with each accordingly.....

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby member_29247 » 11 Jan 2016 11:08

1) Why an air base?
2) was a massive failure from the terrorist side



Simple
a) The world is focused on terror, if it had been civilian targets like on other occasions {Gurudaspur (Date, 27 July 2015) Paris attacks (13 November 2015)} TSP would be frying now may not be India alone but a bunch of allies especially French (they have to sell Rafale deal would be a factor).

b) There was inside help from highly corrupt police and also moles, the most recent was ex IAF caught in Kerala so the terrorist knew what and where things were. It is the closest AFB or military base of high value assets.

So it was AFB.


2) A massive failure : we can spin yarns of threads like Rumpelstiltskin

the fact remains that
outsiders could breach the security as Johnee G garu has already said.

the aim of terrorist is to have multiple contingency Goals
primary if not secondary
1, 2, 3
thank GOD the hidden hand of Bharat Mata saved us from Primary objective of the terrorist being accomplished.

If still in doubt

we lost officers of the rank of Lt. Col to jawans and a gold medalist sportsman and civilian driver...

it also showed we are not prepared equipment wise like NV, Bullet proof jackets, UAVs or even micro UAVs with IR detectors to help in the night fight
still not convinced
then I quit

****
4 days disruption is not worth all the planning and effort that has gone into this.


We lost men high and low rank, some of whom were married very recently is that not enough?

It could also mean a valuable experience for the handlers to learn how we react and what equipment we use.

By the way we had to destroy a building right in the midst of AFB

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 11:16

^^ The usual rants and nothing of substance.

Meanwhile.

Jugal R Purohit ‏@jrpur Jan 5

'Entire ops took about 36 hours only. Rest of the time taken in sanitising the area which is a must' says Def Min.
View conversation
10 retweets 8 likes
Jugal R Purohit ‏@jrpur Jan 5

Def Min: Have advised army to hold exercises with NSG even though there is no problem of synergy at all.
View conversation
2 retweets 0 likes
Jugal R Purohit ‏@jrpur Jan 5

Def Min: BSF has been asked to explain how intrusion occurred. We are auditing all our bases from security point of view.
View conversation
1 retweet 2 likes
Jugal R Purohit ‏@jrpur Jan 5

Biggest newsbreak in @manoharparrikar conf: Foreign trainees were inside Pathankot base. 5-6 were evacuated away from terrorists in time.


The parts in bold represent the right kind of steps.

NSG-IA exercises will stop the backbiting from IA jarnails of the rtd kind about NSG competence etc once their in service peers tell them to pipe down.

The base audits (hopefully by some sort of red team) will make sure security of key assets is no longer ad hoc or based on obsolete threat perception.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby member_29151 » 11 Jan 2016 11:51

Best Plan : Cut Off Rivers . Pakistan Will handover all Those terrorists.

Image

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby rkhanna » 11 Jan 2016 12:34


Aditya_V
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jan 2016 12:41

Kumar Vinod, that Leverage was taken away by a former prime minister in 1960. And 2004-14 has put us on the back foot. We need atleast 7-8 years when our danda is big enough to make an impact.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby member_29151 » 11 Jan 2016 13:00

Aditya_V wrote:Kumar Vinod, that Leverage was taken away by a former prime minister in 1960. And 2004-14 has put us on the back foot. We need atleast 7-8 years when our danda is big enough to make an impact.

what I will say ! Which Contract or Treaty Pakistan has Ever Followed Perfectly?
So why Should We Follow the 1960 treaty. Just break it and stop the Water . :evil: :evil: :((

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 13:34

Spinster wrote:So it was AFB.


Of course it was AFB. Did you just find out? Everyone knows that but why AFB? What did the terrorists want to do? Call mummy to say dinner was had? Simply break in and kick the bucket?

Spinster wrote:2) A massive failure : we can spin yarns of threads like Rumpelstiltskin

the fact remains that
outsiders could breach the security


I am stupid but tell me what security was breached? A fence or something was breached or a wall was climbed. After that what security was breached? Unarmed men were seen and killed. Security was alerted and the men were killed. Airbase and assets unharmed.

Why 4 days? Why did you not quickly post a message giving time limit? That was your failure. They would have done it. Everyone can spin yarns as you say.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 13:40

johneeG wrote:
1) Terrorists breached border security.
2) terrorists breached air base security and entered despite the alert.
3) terrorists spent 4 days in base causing disruption and loss of life.
4) despite such audacious attack, India has not retaliated so far, thus exposing India's weakness.

Sorry. Please read again. I am asking about the operation to flush out/kill the terrorists. The operation started after the terrorists presence was detected, not when they crossed the border or entered base perimeter. Before that their presence was not known. Only suspected. They could have been ready to attack any part of the air base or even outside the base and security was ready for them everywhere, but the operation had not started.

1) Terrorists breached border security.
This was BEFORE the operation started
2) terrorists breached air base security and entered despite the alert.
This was BEFORE the operation started
4) despite such audacious attack, India has not retaliated so far, thus exposing India's weakness.
This has got nothing to do with the actual operation to kill the terrorists and is an irrelevant statement

The operation started when the terrorist were detected and that was after the first loss of life.

So you are saying that the operation should not have taken 4 days, so it was botched.What makes you think that you know a time limit for such operations that the forces don't know? If you know what is the time limit? And why

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby member_29258 » 11 Jan 2016 14:37

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 530241.cms

"I am of the opinion, it should not be taken as a government thinking, I always believe that if anyone harms you, he understands the same language.

"How, when and where should be of your choice but if someone is harming this country, then that particular individual or organisation, I purposely used the words individual and organisation, should also receive the pain of such activities," he said at a seminar organised by the Army.

Asked to elaborate, Parrikar later said, "Basic p ..


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 14:40

^^ Looks like clear go ahead for punitive measures on IB/LOC. However, until and unless we develop core capabilities in covert ops and deep strikes, actual ISI handlers will escape.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby SidSom » 11 Jan 2016 14:46

Whole Hog or Just Hogwash...?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pathankot-attack-Pakistan-acts-on-India-leads-arrests-some-suspects/articleshow/50531146.cms

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani authorities carried out raids at different places following attack on the Pathankot airbase in India, leading to some arrests, intelligence officials said on Monday.
They said that raids were carried out in Gujranwala, Jhelum and Bahawalpur districts and an unspecified number of people were arrested.
"Probe has been going to ascertain if they were involved in the attack or some of them facilitated it," they said.
The arrests led Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to order a joint investigation team of Intelligence Bureau(IB), Inter-Services Intelligence, Military Intelligence, Federal Investigation Agency and police to thoroughly probe the Pathankot attack links to Pakistan.
Sharif has already said that a transparent investigation will be made and those involved will not be spared.

The decision to form the JIT, comprising officials from Intelligence Bureau (IB), Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and Military Intelligence (MI), was taken at a high-level meeting chaired by PM Nawaz Sharif, the Express Tribune said.
Interior minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan, national security adviser Lt-Gen (retd) Nasser Khan Janjua, Prime Minister's adviser on foreign affairs Sartaj Aziz, special assistant to the Prime Minister on foreign affairs Tariq Fatemi and finance minister Ishaq Dar attended the meeting.

Prime Minister Sharif "is taking an active role in getting to the bottom of the Pathankot incident," a Prime Minister's House source was quoted as saying by the paper.

"He also discussed the issue with army chief Gen Raheel Sharif and took him on board about the decision to form a JIT," the source added.

"This investigation will be a major test of the prime minister to move Pakistan-India relationship forward and to break the cycle of off-again on-again talks between the two neighbours," the source added.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 15:52

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 524924.cms

"Noted with satisfaction the decision-making & its execution, the considerations that went into our tactical response: PM," the Prime Minister's Office tweeted after Modi was briefed. Commandos from the elite National Security Guard had been called in to handle any potential hostage situation at the air base, which housed hundreds of families and 23 foreign trainees from four nations, Modi was told. Although Modi was satisfied with the operations, he asked pointed questions about how terrorists could have entered the vital installation.

Officials told ET that the PM impressed upon the air force and army to immediately take all steps to make defence bases near the border into "impregnable fortresses," including the installation of modern electronic perimeter intrusion protection systems - as done at major airports - CCTVs and proper flood-lighting and control centres to live-monitor the boundaries of these bases.

The Pathankot base and other army and IAF bases near the border do not have CCTVs or perimeter intrusion alert systems. Pathankot air base has a CCTV only at the main entry. "There can be no excuses and we have to shore up our defences to ensure terrorists are not able to infiltrate into India in the first place and our vital installations are safe from such intrusions as a back-up measure," an official told ET.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby srai » 11 Jan 2016 16:06

^^^

At least a positive outcome from such attacks is that it gets the GoI and the armed forces to commit to plugging holes in defences. After Kargil, the push was to acquire UAVs for surveillance. Aftermath of Mumbai attack were the installation of coastal radars, fishing boat ids, and coastal police all integrated. Now the focus would be on border and base security through various technologies, training and practices. For one, the IAF Gaurd numbers would go up I would think since this episode showed that the quantities at hand were insufficient for covering a large AFS.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 16:16

^^ India has no dearth of plans and planning, what's been lacking is execution. Modi pushing the services to upgrade, fix holes in basics is a positive step because they in turn will get support from GOI, unlike before.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby member_29247 » 11 Jan 2016 16:51

After reading through now I am convinced and stand corrected.
It is great victory for India against TSP.

I hope GOI issues a first day cover and a stamp in honor of this victory.

Silly of me no to think through and see the light.
Thanks for education to all.
Apologies for not getting it as usual.
Jai Hind

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Rampy » 11 Jan 2016 17:43

Karan M wrote:^^ The usual rants and nothing of substance.


Biggest newsbreak in @manoharparrikar conf: Foreign trainees were inside Pathankot base. 5-6 were evacuated away from terrorists in time.


Karan M wrote: The parts in bold represent the right kind of steps.

NSG-IA exercises will stop the backbiting from IA jarnails of the rtd kind about NSG competence etc once their in service peers tell them to pipe down.

The base audits (hopefully by some sort of red team) will make sure security of key assets is no longer ad hoc or based on obsolete threat perception.


Sir u missed one main point in bold, were these foreign trainees Afghan training on Mi25? That changes the equation
Last edited by Rampy on 11 Jan 2016 17:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby member_29218 » 11 Jan 2016 17:45

Rampy wrote:
shiv wrote:Please. What is the point of attacking an air base?
    To die?
    To kill cooks?
    To call mummy and say "I gonna get houris"
    Or to destroy aircraft and airbase installations?


Exactly why AFB, if they indeed wanted to blow Aircraft they could have targeted civilian base or hijacked. My theory Paki fauj has received a very stringent warning on targeting soft targets within India from UNCLE. But they cannot make their pappu sit quite at home. So what they do
I was reading Christian Fair's book on Paki fauj, IMO they wanted to test our response time just like Gurdaspur but this time military response time and what options Doval will use. What we have to see is do we really have option or its bluff


The Pakis have been fighting a war with us for almost 70 yrs and from their twisted POV, it is righteous war. The means are irrelevant and the targets hitherto have been variable and without a specific pattern. The equipment is often sourced from Massa and other Uncles. Having been hit very hard every time there is an overt war, they continue to follow the 'war of a thousand cuts' paradigm.

I suspect after the French attacks in particular, any incident where civilians are specifically targeted is not 'halal' any more and the outrage from not just the Indian public but the world would be severe, defeating any possible 'gains' made by the handlers in Pakistan.

Why an AFB?

1. In any war, attacking a military installation lends credence to the philosophy that it is indeed a war and not simply an act of terror perpetrated by religious fundoos.
2. It wins a lot of brownie points back home among the mango abduls - 'our boys' managed to hit a high powered AFB and "look, it took only six of our martyrs to shut down the entire AFB for days"
3. Massa and other Uncles CAN, if they so choose to, look the other way since only weapons of war were hit and destroyed and in any case, this is just two nations fighting over disputed land.
4. The Pakis do not really want India to retaliate, they are simply testing the waters time and again, especially with a relatively new leadership, to see where the redlines lie. It is thus easier to keep hitting non-civilian targets. Would be that much harder for India to restrain itself if say a school was attacked and a bunch of kids killed (although previous governments did nothing after Kaluchak, Akshardham etc).

Did the terrorists succeed in their mission?

Unfortunately they did manage to kill some of our bravehearts, but it would have been impossible to hope that six mofos with 3000 rounds of ammunition and explosives would not be able to cause any casualties. That they did NOT damage any aircraft or other sensitive equipment classifies their mission as an absolute failure, from where I am standing.

I don't understand all the breast-beating and hyperventilation by all the armchair anal-ists in the media and elsewhere, even here.

You elect a government, you give it your absolute support. You have an army to protect your a$$, you give it your absolute support. In the '65 war (yes, I am old enough to remember), the Indian forces were ill-equipped and ill-prepared, and yet they gave their best to serve the country, winning the war for us. Where is the gratitude now?

Folks forget that we are and have been at a constant war with Pakistan since Independence. Just because their planes are not flying over our skies or their tanks are not rolling over our fields does not mean we lower our guard. This is a different kind of war where the enemy is not clearly visible and has its agents already in our midst.

It would do us jingos a lot of good to sit back and look at the tough job our forces have to do, safeguarding our wellbeing day in and day out. I am seeing too many self-goals being scored here, but that may just be MHO.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 19:38

Spinster wrote:After reading through now I am convinced and stand corrected.
It is great victory for India against TSP.

I hope GOI issues a first day cover and a stamp in honor of this victory.

Silly of me no to think through and see the light.
Thanks for education to all.
Apologies for not getting it as usual.
Jai Hind


All the sarcasm in the world cannot cover up the bullshit in this line.

Spinster wrote:it also showed we are not prepared equipment wise like NV, Bullet proof jackets, UAVs or even micro UAVs with IR detectors to help in the night fight


This after umpteen reports and pics of some of the resources put into the fight which in fact included NVs, BPJs and UAVs. Heck, a UGV for IED disposal was missing but I am sure you would have found some way to rant about something else if that was there too.

At the end of the day, you just use BRF as a dumping ground for your venting and ranting. Please spare us the complaining if people see through it.
Last edited by Karan M on 11 Jan 2016 19:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 19:39

Spinster wrote:After reading through now I am convinced and stand corrected.
It is great victory for India against TSP.

I hope GOI issues a first day cover and a stamp in honor of this victory.

Silly of me no to think through and see the light.
Thanks for education to all.
Apologies for not getting it as usual.
Jai Hind
Thank you for acknowledging an unnecessary post with an original claim of victory that no one else has come up with. I am sure you too will be remembered in some way or other for this momentous act of illumination. Jai Hind.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby rajanb » 11 Jan 2016 19:41

Amber G. wrote:High level meeting in Pak after NaMo's call..
Image


This is Pollywood at its prime. ( Associate that word with Hollywood and Bollywood)

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby rajanb » 11 Jan 2016 20:17

shiv wrote:
Spinster wrote:After reading through now I am convinced and stand corrected.
It is great victory for India against TSP.

I hope GOI issues a first day cover and a stamp in honor of this victory.

Silly of me no to think through and see the light.
Thanks for education to all.
Apologies for not getting it as usual.
Jai Hind
Thank you for acknowledging an unnecessary post with an original claim of victory that no one else has come up with. I am sure you too will be remembered in some way or other for this momentous act of illumination. Jai Hind.


Sorry Shiv, but I disagree. The best assets, the XX Div was not swung into action, They could have locked down everything.
It was NOT A VICTORY for the terrorists.
But neither was it, the best response.
I come from an age where in 1965, where propaganda told us that , by the Bakis that one Baki soldier was equal to 10 Indian soldiers. We proved them wrong.
I grieve for the unnecessary loss of lives. And I total up the loss of lives and no retribution on attacks over the years.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same" is an adage we should get out of.
We should have given them psychological pain. Politics and parties be damned.

http://scroll.in/latest/801688/whoever-harms-india-should-be-paid-back-in-same-coin-defence-minister

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby rajithn » 11 Jan 2016 20:36

^^^ Yes, we have failed. Miserably. As things stand, we are just a hair's breadth from losing J&K, our Eastern states...and perhaps the South as well. Now that defeat has been conceded, shall we get on with some useful discussions?

X-posted a post of mine.. from another thread..

There used to be a time when the discussions were sensible and diligent.

If I visit the last many pages, all I see are

A particular whine by one poster, wailing out all the failings of this Country, its people and its elected leaders. Many laced with immediate solutions, that if applied, would just transform the situation at the flick of a switch. Then that same whine is picked up by another poster, amended for some language application or sentence structure and regurgitated all over again.

And another whole lot of posters, well meaning to a fault, trying to assuage the "sky is falling" & "sky has fallen" posters and trying to present an explanation or a perspective.

This thread, and a few others, have started to feel like our 'soap operas'. Even if you missed a bunch of episodes, you don't miss much of the plot/story-line.

Then in the midst of it all, when you separate the few grains of wheat from the whole lot of chaff, you see some keepers. :) Thankfully! And to those bright minds, a sincere Thank you!

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 21:00

rajanb wrote:Sorry Shiv, but I disagree. The best assets, the XX Div was not swung into action, They could have locked down everything.
It was NOT A VICTORY for the terrorists.
But neither was it, the best response.


Calling it a botched operation and an utter failure is vicious and mean. You may not have done that but your views certainly gave new life to those who were saying such things. We communicate using language and if the language is not right communication cannot be right.

Terrorists came in via a border security lapse and no one knew where they were or where exactly they would hit. People made some decisions and despite the loss of life hundreds of civilians and an operational air base were kept safe by acts of untold heroism.

Did I hear one thank you on this forum? Did anyone bother to tell stories of men who lived through this? Did anyone ask? Please go back and count the number of times people have referred to failures and botched operations. It is all very well to claim great sadness at the loss of life - but an iota of respect for those who did their jobs under duress call for a curtailing of tongues and twitchy fingers.

We have a bunch of of shameless people who claim that shamelessness is a sign of honour and uprightness.

ramana
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby ramana » 11 Jan 2016 21:12

Shiv, In retrospect India should have unleashed the whole Western Command, IAF WAC and IN West coast for good measure all in Pathankot AFB.

Then Col Blimps would have claimed excessive use of force.

____
I had been light in moderating this thread hoping good sense will prevail.
A few got banned already.

Still looks like folks want to go as martyrs.
Not going to give that.

shiv
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 21:16

20 x 20 hindsight is one thing. But conclusions without complete information is GIGO. And insulting pompous conclusions by half baked analysts using half assed media information is ignorant and mean. And pointing that out causes huge hu-uuge egos to kick in to defend stupidity.

Karan M
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2016 21:21

^^ A lot of the crapping over the current Pathankot ops is sheer political vindictiveness, plain and simple.

India has been losing far too many soldiers to all sorts of border incidents. Were similar claims about competence of IA etc raised during that time? No. The NSA and Modi were not directly involved hence it wasn't easy to target them.

Fact is this was a high profile op, which succeeded in good part because of the proactiveness of current GOI and its NSA - which led to the effective use of the brave folks from NSG, IA, DSC.

That has stuck in the craw of many political chaps who can't beat up on Modi/NSA because no aircraft went pfft. Instead, suddenly concern about the loss of lives in this op and claims that deploying whatever group, doing this, doing that would have made a difference.

At the end of the day all SOPs in the world fail in front of slow decisions. In this case, speedy decisions were made and hence we made it through.

See 26/11 vs Pathankot and the differences couldn't be more drastic. And thank goodness for that.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby rajithn » 11 Jan 2016 21:39

shiv wrote:20 x 20 hindsight is one thing. But conclusions without complete information is GIGO. And insulting pompous conclusions by half baked analysts using half assed media information is ignorant and mean. And pointing that out causes huge hu-uuge egos to kick in to defend stupidity.


+1

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Amber G. » 11 Jan 2016 22:41

shiv wrote:..... Did anyone bother to tell stories of men who lived through this? ..

Yes, there is a lot of discussion (even "nare-baazi" in the sense described below) here, but let us NOT forget words penned more than 50 years ago which are still as relevant as then.

ऐ मेरे वतन के लोगों, तुम खूब लगा लो नारा
ये शुभ दिन हैं हम सब का, लहरा लो तिरंगा प्यारा
पर मत भूलो सीमा पर, वीरों ने हैं प्राण गवाये
कुछ याद उन्हें भी कर लो, कुछ याद उन्हें भी कर लो
जो लौट के घर ना आये, जो लौट के घर ना आये

ऐ मेरे वतन के लोगों, ज़रा आँख में भर लो पानी
जो शहीद हुये हैं उनकी, ज़रा याद करो कुर्बानी


Please take time, AND LISTEN to it by clicking the picture link provided below. I am sure all have heard it before but I ask all of you to listen once again.... Jai Hind.
Image
Garud Commando CPL Gursewak Singh
Last edited by Amber G. on 11 Jan 2016 22:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Shameek » 11 Jan 2016 22:45

We won the actual day in foiling the terrorist’s plans. We proved once again that our forces have dedicated brave souls who fight for our lives and honour at risk to their own. We saved our prized assets. Where we lost was the information war whether on this forum or in the media.

We came across as a country looking at every reason to point out flaws in everything that happens excluding the root cause. When faced with an external aggressor we turned on ourselves openly and washed all our dirty laundry in public; all in the name of democracy/freedom of speech/ego tussles/politics. We were not able to have one voice reporting relevant information to India and the world about what happened during those days. The need to rush to the ‘press’ with every tiny half-baked detail to get some additional TRPs was painfully obvious. The fact that the focus shifted even before the operations were over is a sad reflection of what people are really concerned about.

The public deserves to know their heroes and their sacrifice and bravery. It however does not need to know details of what worked and what failed. The fact that the attack happened at all is enough indication that improvements are required somewhere. Where and how those improvements happen is the job of the concerned parties (PMO, NSA, Armed Forces) and not the media or for that matter any other person/organization.
Honour your brave. Let them and their families know that they fought and died for a country that respects and thanks them. Don’t criticize their actions unless you were present alongside them or had in-depth knowledge of their SOPs and why you think they failed them. And if you have such knowledge, don’t talk to random people on any public forum anyways.

Time and again, we lose the chance to appear united as Indians in the face of our enemy. This time was no different and I am afraid the next time won’t be either.


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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Sid » 11 Jan 2016 23:22

In this whole operation few things intrigues me.

1. Phone intercepts - If anyone is aware of how phone intercepts and processing works, (remember we are nowhere near NSA lvl of data mining), then what's clear is that such intercepts are not real-time. Collating all this info and taking any meaningful action on it would have taken some time, not 1-2 days which we are made to believe via news sources.

It can be that we are not disclosing our sources for this information, which is understandable. News media dancing around this info, that India shared intercepted phone number, anyways is a smoke screen. Both sides used burner phones which cannot be traced to any individual.

2. Pak Cooperation - Sharif is experienced enough not to take panga with military, he barely survived once. This time he might not be that lucky, unless he has blessings from US/SA. Hence all these raids, joint investigation, etc news should be taken with a truck load of salt.

Maybe we will have to wait for some time (5-6 months or more) to see what action has been taken. Too much of an overt action can humiliate their military, which will be counteractive. The amount of negative propaganda they have fed their masses will take to get rid off.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby SRoy » 11 Jan 2016 23:30

^^

Phone intercepts can be real time, although not necessary to do so.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Yagnasri » 11 Jan 2016 23:37

It is time for us to forget about the humiliation of paki army sir. If they are humiliated then it is their problem and not ours. We have already kicked some a** in the border after the new gov took over in 2014. We need to do the similar thing now. I am quite sure that we have the assets. We proved it in recent NE side operation. While I agree that paki side is not like Burma side. Still I am sure that IA and SF fellows will have some plans somewhere in their files to take out and do same thing which we all want.

Maybe they are already doing it. Who knows.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 11 Jan 2016 23:40

Sid wrote:In this whole operation few things intrigues me.

1. Phone intercepts - If anyone is aware of how phone intercepts and processing works, (remember we are nowhere near NSA lvl of data mining), then what's clear is that such intercepts are not real-time. Collating all this info and taking any meaningful action on it would have taken some time, not 1-2 days which we are made to believe via news sources.

It can be that we are not disclosing our sources for this information, which is understandable. News media dancing around this info, that India shared intercepted phone number, anyways is a smoke screen. Both sides used burner phones which cannot be traced to any individual.


That struck me also. How did the "Beta khana kha lena" line or so get captured?


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