General Indian Military News & Discussion

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 09 Jul 2018 14:31

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 20 Jul 2018 13:01

Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of june, 2018
https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... ctjune.pdf


all achievements
https://mod.gov.in/dod/major-achievements

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Jul 2018 21:57

Army will be without arms…if it doesn’t revert to Five-year colour service - Bharat Karnad
Figures don’t lie. The payroll expenses and the pensions and the post-retirement sustenance costs (besides pensions, access to canteen and health services for life) are barreling out of control, taking an ever bigger chunk of the exchequer. Based on the truncated one rank, one pension (OROP) accepted by the BJP government with equalization every five years (instead of every two years as suggested by the ex-servicemen’s organizations), the financial subvention for the human resources (HR) category (roughly the defence budget on revenue account + the pensions budget (with 2013 used as base year for one rank, one pension calculations) will hit the country . The scale of outgo on this account will become apparent in its totality when the 2019-20 budget is presented. But even without accounting for the OROP tsunami, the numbers are absolutely stunning. Consider the budgetary figures:

(Source: Laxman Behera, “”Defence Expenditure 2018-19”, https://idsa.in/issuebrief/defence-budg ... era-020218 )

The HR outgo for the army in 2018-19 of Rs 2,94,176 crores almost equals the total defence budget and, at the present rate of growth will, by next year, exceed it by a furlong. (For simplification of analysis purposes, the military’s pensions and revenue budgets are not here disaggregated but lumped in with the navy’s and air force’s, also because the manpower of the smaller services are dwarfed by the army’s; compared to ‘army’s strength of 1.3 million, the air force is 140,000-strong, and navy 100,000-strong.)

With 5-yearly automatic escalator plugged in, the defence budget will, quite literally be uncontrolled or uncontrollable by the Finance Ministry (as evidenced in the 23% growth on the pensions spend in just one year), even as capital/force modernization plans will have to be sporadically funded — as is already the case now but for reasons principally of absence of inter se prioritisation — or shelved altogether because there will not be enough resources available for them. But the separation of pensions and defence budgets is a bare-faced device to divert attention and soften — on paper — the fiscal impact, because the source of the funding of all these streams is the same — the tax payer’s pocket. If one were to include the 7 paramilitary organizations in totaling the cost in terms of maintenance and pensions, the figure will be altogether humungous. As it is HR upkeep costs are crowding out the outlays for hardware procurement.

The burgeoning problem has finally attracted the government’s attention. Except, the Modi regime has resorted to controversial steps by the Ministry of Defence — covered under the rubric of the civilization of some 752 cantonment territorial parcels and military lands all over the country –as a means of drastically cutting the expenditure in upkeeping these vast tracts of land and landed-property owned by by the MOD and hitherto set aside for exclusive armed services’ use. This solution has already riled the military and increased the sources of tension between the military and civilians sections of society, and doesn’t address the fundamental problem of the government’s financial support for the military being skewed by the mounting HR expenses. The army has also proposed other means, such as eliminating the one-star Brigadier rank and equivalent from the military. Yes, but the savings will be minimal in payroll and pension costs in any case, but will sow a lot of confusion in the interface between time-grade promoted officers (to the Lieutenant Colonel rank) and colonels destined for higher ranks by selection. And, in any case, how will this new system jell considering an army brigade is the fighting unit by choice of the army — anything smaller being sub-optimal and anything bigger unwieldy?

Oh, sure, there are other decisions the Modi government can take expeditiously to streamline, rationalize, and drastically reduce defence expenditure by, for instance, integrating the training and logistics components of the army, air force and navy into integrated Training and Logistics Commands under MOD (to avoid triplication of these capabilities and of funding), which will save a whole lot of money. But anything integrated is shunned by the military and however desirable will not be obtainedwitness the state in which the realization of Chief of Defence Staff system has been provisionally vetoed by IAF. So the economies available by these means won’t happen, especially as Prime Minister Narendra Modi, while happily seeking votes from the large, country-wide, military Family for his OROP decision, has shown he lacks the political will to impose structurally and organizationally re-engineered systems for the bureaucracy and armed services to operate in.

So the only way out seems to be to rejig the manpower-heavy army’s strength without hurting its war-fighting capability. An obvious solution comes to mind that older generation officers may be partial to: Why not revert to the old seven year colour (frontline regimental) service standard for the army? It will have cascading benefits to the country, besides relieving the stress on the state treasury.

India’s population is some 1,281,935,911; of the available youthful available manpower of 616 million, 489.6 million are “fit for service” with 22.9 million annually reaching military service age of 18 years. The entrant-level jawan will have to be unmarried and with a high school-leaving certificate. The five year colour service norm will mean a year for training and battle inoculation and four years active service, at the end of which an unmarried jawan cohort will pass out of service, still young but now experienced — some of them armed with marketable technical skills in telecommunications, machinery servicing and maintenance, etc. , and each equipped also with a fat remuneration package of couple of crores of rupees paid up-front, lump-sum, to ease their passage back into civilian life and with the financial wherewithal to find their way in the world in second careers lasting a lifetime.

The gains will be numerous, among them (1) a growingly disciplined citizenry, with the ex-armymen in the van, (2) a younger, physically stronger, more lithe and agile army, that will more readily be deployable in challenging tasks and expeditionary missions, etc. (3) a younger armed forces reserve for call-up in national emergencies, (4) drastic reductions in the spend on pensions.

At present the army is in the worst possible situation in every respect. With the 17-year colour service norm, the average trooper is in his 30s by the time of his release — too young to live a pensioned life, but too old to start out on a new career and to lift himself further. The country has then to pay him for the rest of his life — for the next some 40 years, and his survivors for the rest of their lives, completely skewing the defence budget. Worse, it radically limits the resources the nation can make available for national security generally, but more importantly, in keeping the army and the other armed forces continually modernized and technologically updated.

The country, moreover, will not have to “double dip” by having government-owned banks give loans to the young for their entreprenurial ventures — as Modi boasted in Parliament in last Friday’s vote of no confidence. The jawan graduating with 5-year’s military service behind him will be well-equipped financially and age-wise to make it on his own.

If the paramilitary organizations were subjected to similar five or seven year frontline service norms, more Indian youth will be recycled and a huge dent made as regards unemployed or under-employed youth currently clogging up the economy — the country’s most severe existential threat.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 23 Jul 2018 17:28

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... ID=1539633
Ministry of Defence
Contracts in Defence Sector
Posted On: 23 JUL 2018 3:36PM by PIB Delhi
Capital procurement of defence equipment is carried out as per the extant Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP). DPP-2016 focuses on institutionalizing streamlining and simplifying defence procurement procedure to give boost to ‘Make in India’ initiative of the Government of India, by promoting indigenous design, development and manufacturing of defence equipment, platforms, systems and sub-systems. Ministry of Defence is committed to the objectives of DPP-2016 and is taking all steps necessary to realize these objectives.



During the last three years and current year (upto June, 2018) out of total 168 contracts, 106 contracts have been signed with Indian vendors for procurement of defence equipment for Armed Forces such as Helicopters, Radar, Ballistic Helmets, Artillery Guns, Simulators, Missiles, Bullet Proof Jackets, Electronic Fuzes, and ammunition.



Government has also promulgated the policy of Strategic Partnership in the Defence Sector which encourages participation of the private sector in manufacture of major defence platforms and equipment in four selected segments viz. Submarines, Fighter Aircraft, Helicopters and Armoured Fighting Vehicles / Tanks.



This information was given by RakshaRajyaMantriDr.SubhashBhamre in a written reply to Shri Ahamed Hassan and Dr.Sanjay Sinhin Rajya Sabha today.

NAo/Nampi/Rajib/HS
(Release ID: 1539633) Visitor Counter : 50

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 06 Aug 2018 11:21

Dedicated website for gallantry awards
http://gallantryawards.gov.in/

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 04 Sep 2018 13:30

Retired officers digital records archive
by Automation Cell, MP Dte
https://rodra.gov.in/

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 05 Sep 2018 09:39

https://pao39gtc.gov.in/
PAO (ORs) 39GTC
Defence Accounts Department

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Prem » 10 Sep 2018 05:44


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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 25 Sep 2018 11:06

https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/files/majoractaug18.pdf
Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of August, 2018

Karan M
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Sep 2018 13:45

Yet to release the annual report for last year. :roll:

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby samverma2018 » 29 Sep 2018 20:11

First official post...yeeaaahhhh :D :D ......i was wondering...i know its naive / dumb / stupid of me :oops: :oops: ......i read some old article which stated total defence land is 17 lac acres.....can the govt not tweak the law/rules to create this as a land pool for some form of property loan(super duper low rates akin to the bullet train concept - 0.5% simple interest to be payed from 10 years onwards types)...

And all this is within the gambits of govt agencies...MOD + armed forces + RBI (bank for loan against property)...the law should be such that the govt or any associated agency can never "sell" this land parcel...keep extending the loan tenure....

I assume the minimum rate of each acre under this land pool will be in crores....imagine if we could cash into this asset....hell there will so much money that the armed forces could "loan" some of this to the finance ministry on low rates but higher than what they have to pay back every year...win win all around....

i know...if wishers were horses :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 29 Sep 2018 22:21

Welcome to BRF. Please remove the 2018 from your username.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 30 Sep 2018 05:20

Twitter is abuzz with talk of another surgical strike having taken place 2-3 days ago. And nothing here?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 02 Nov 2018 16:53

https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... sept_0.pdf
Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of September, 2018

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Nov 2018 03:00

Defence ministry enhances financial powers of armed forces to Rs 500 crore.

The defence ministry has enhanced the financial decision-making powers of the Army, Navy and IAF vice-chiefs "by five times" to ensure the armed forces can build up ammunition stocks and undertake other projects through revenue procurements.

The vice-chiefs will now be able to take decisions up to a limit of Rs 500 crore as the “competent financial authorities” under this greater delegation of financial powers.

“Defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman took this step to augment the arms and ammunition reserves of the armed forces and enhance their operational preparedness,” said an MoD official on Thursday.

Incidentally, contracts worth around Rs 20,000 crore for ammunition, spares, engines and other reserves have been finalised over the last two years, mainly with Russia and Israel, to ensure adequate stocks for at least 10 days of “intense war-fighting”, as was earlier reported by TOI.

It was after the terror attack at Uri in September 2016 that the government had been rudely jolted out of its slumber on finding that the armed forces had crippling operational shortages of several different kinds of ammunition.

Though the conventional norm is that the armed forces should have adequate war wastage reserves (WWR) to last 40 days of “intense fighting”, the government decided that as a first step emergency procurements should be undertaken to build stockpiles for at least 10 days.

Under the 19 contracts worth Rs 11,740 crore finalized for the Army, for instance, the force will get Smerch rockets, Konkurs anti-tank guided missiles, 125mm APFSDS (armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot) ammunition for its T-90S and T-72 tanks and other ammunition in the 2019-2020 timeframe.

The government is also finalizing a Rs 15,000 crore long-term plan+ to get the domestic private sector to manufacture seven different types of ammunition to gradually remove the country’s heavy import dependence in this arena.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 15 Nov 2018 13:51

https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/files/majoroct2018.pdf
Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of Oct, 2018

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2019 23:15

Image

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 28 Jan 2019 14:17

https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... ov18_0.pdf
https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... ec2018.pdf
Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of Nov, Dec, 2018

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Jan 2019 11:20

George Kaka is no more. He attained Veer Gathi at 88

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby ashthor » 14 Mar 2019 12:44

http://www.businesstoday.in/current/eco ... 26863.html

Finance Minister Arun Jaitley said on Tuesday that India needs a bigger defence budget to modernise its armed forces during the next six-seven years.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 22 Mar 2019 16:14

https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... tjan19.pdf
https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... 2019_0.pdf
Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of JAN, FEB 2019

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 01 Apr 2019 15:05

How not to do Defence Forces a great disservice
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2019/sunda ... rvice.html

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 02 Apr 2019 15:20


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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Sanju » 05 Apr 2019 10:04

ANI

ANI
‏Verified account @ANI
14m14 minutes ago

Army: Indian Army Chief Gen Bipin Rawat inducted into prestigious International Hall of Fame at the US Army’s Command and General Staff College,Fort Leavenworth. Rawat is an alumnus of the college having graduated in 1997 from there. Army Chief is on a five day visit to the US.



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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 19:07

Chetak wrote:


negi ji,

where do you think that you would find folks like General Kalashnikov and Artem Mikoyan in Desh??.

Such people, if they ever existed in India, are long gone and are now happily cleaning floors at heathrow.

We have promoted, pampered, tolerated, pestered, and finally gotten a big fat zero ROI on many of our very expensive defence related investments.

Kalashnikov and Artem Mikoyan had innate capability. We seem to have missed this vital point and that's why we have missed the bus. No amount of good money thrown after the bad money can or will ever produce results.

why haven't we ever tried to copy a glock or a sig sauer?? and take it from there??.

Are homemade IN ships original Indian designs?? but they work well enough, no??

We should be thinking on these lines, and IP be damned.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Apr 2019 23:31

We have promoted, pampered, tolerated, pestered, and finally gotten a big fat zero ROI on many of our very expensive defence related investments.

Kalashnikov and Artem Mikoyan had innate capability. We seem to have missed this vital point and that's why we have missed the bus. No amount of good money thrown after the bad money can or will ever produce results.

Best not to look at the past with rose tinted glasses. Most of the early MiG designs during WW2 suffered from performance shortfalls and reliability issues. Just look at the history of the Mig-1 through 8. May of them remained as research projects. And yes, money was spent on all of them.

If this had happened in India, all and sundry would have delighted in running down the indigenous efforts and pointing to shiny foreign maal which was so much superior. The Russians instead, stuck with it, kept trying and improving their work and eventually surprised everyone with the Mig-15.

It is not a lack of good people but a bewildering mindset where people delight in laughing off indigenous efforts while singing paeans about imported maal is the problem. God knows this has been tried on the LCA often enough.

If what you say is true and anyone who had the"innate capability" to design and develop good weapon systems is lost to brain drain, where did our numerous successes be it in missiles, radars, space vehicles and yes, even the LCA come from?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 13 Apr 2019 16:54

Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of MARCH 2019
https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/files/Majormar.pdf

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 15 May 2019 15:18

Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of April 2019
https://mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/ ... pril19.pdf

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 01 Jul 2019 11:49

Major activities of Department of Defence for the month of MAY 2019
https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/files/majormay19_0.pdf

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 29 Jul 2019 22:46

LakshmanPST wrote:Russia sells Su35s to China, nobody cares...
US gives some support package for F16s to Pak, everybody losing their minds...


There is room for some soul searching here for both India and the US. India routinely overlooks weapons technology transfer from Russia to China and the recent threats from Russia to start selling weapons to Pak were rewarded by even larger weapons deals!

On the other hand, the US has kept the Pakistani jihadi enterprise afloat for the longest time. They would have collapsed long ago if it were not for the US transferring weapons, money and political support to them.

Both countries should not approach relations as if we are starting from a blank slate. Historical Indian support for the USSR and the US support for Pakistan are both millstones that the respective establishments should throw overboard at the first instance.

Looking to the future, if there is no modus-vivendi between the Russians and the Europeans/US/NATO, Russia will be **forced** to bandwagon with China. As a resource rich country with cold war vestigial weapons capability, it has no other option. India can provide neither the economic, nor the political heft needed to save Rus from the NATO/US wrath. There is no possibility that Rus does not support China in the emerging scenario. Indian babu-dome has a unique capability to ALWAYS fall between two stools. ALWAYS.

Finally, there is the (T)rump. Pakis have signaled support for the rump 2020 campaign by vowing to help them extricate themselves from AfPak. Of course, India can not help them much in this regard. But once this need is met, there isnt much Pakis can offer the US. Till that time, buckle up. US acts of omission and Paki acts of commission are going to spill blood in India again.

None of this is to suggest that the US or the rump are innocent in all this. Just trying to figure out the next moves of all parties. If one can put themselves in the opponents shoes, and tries to think what the opponents narrow self interest is, one can predict the next move a little bit better.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2019 05:13

sudeepj wrote:
There is room for some soul searching here for both India and the US.


Before doing = = watch the video where read. RAW chief N.K. Sood says how CIA funds commies and other separatist orgs in Bharat, to actively weaken Bharat.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1240258899468337&id=574079826086251

Russians give nuclear subs, Bramhos joint venture...

US gives humiliating cismoa for its platforms

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Jul 2019 13:32

sudeepj wrote:Both countries should not approach relations as if we are starting from a blank slate. Historical Indian support for the USSR and the US support for Pakistan are both millstones that the respective establishments should throw overboard at the first instance.


Unless we make our own weapons and induct them, rely on them, this perennial weakness will continue.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 30 Jul 2019 21:36

Manish_Sharma wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
There is room for some soul searching here for both India and the US.


Before doing = = watch the video where readtd. RAW chief N.K. Sood says how CIA funds commies and other separatist orgs in Bharat, to actively weaken Bharat.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1240258899468337&id=574079826086251

Russians give nuclear subs, Bramhos joint venture...

US gives humiliating cismoa for its platforms


1. Russians did not 'give' us anything. We paid for it. Can you please refrain from portraying India as a supplicant before Russia?
2. The US has acted against India in the past. We had a 'mutual defense and friendship' treaty with the Soviets, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Sovi ... ooperation) remember? Why wouldn't the US act against us?
3. There is no concept of permanent friendship, principles or even enmity in international relations between nation states.
4. India does have permanent interests.
5. What do you think the interests of Russia are? What do you think the interests of China are? What do you think the interests of the United States are?
6. With which states interests do we have the greatest congruence?
7. If you had to pick an ally, whom would you pick?

A $1Trillion petroleum, nat gas, lumber and raw material exporting economy with vestigial weapons capability from the cold war
OR
A $20 Trillion economy that has a huge market, that has an internationally accepted currency, is at the cutting edge of all technology, and whose interests in the Indian Ocean region are shared with you? Furthermore, the $20T economy is your largest legitimate trading partner and your largest export market?


Thankfully, today India is run by babus & netas who live more or less in the real world and not by people who are willing to lose the future by picking up a quarrel with the past. The last felicitous phrase was spoken by Winston Churchill, the genocidal maniac. The point is, even if someone has committed crimes against you in the past, be willing to ally with them to win the future. Dont be like the two Japanese soldiers marooned on a Phillipine island, still fighting WW II twenty years after it had ended.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2019 21:45

@sudeep: All very good points.

Just one point of my own - the future that India sees and the future that the US sees are night and day. Unless those two visions meet, it will remain a very transactional relationship.

India has weapons to buy and America has weapons to sell. It is that simple. Everything else - strategic partnership, major defence partner, COMCASA, LEMOA, etc, etc, etc, - flows from that.

As you yourself pointed out ----> There is no concept of permanent friendship, principles or even enmity in international relations between nation states. And just as India has permanent interests, so does the United States. CAATSA proved that.

So make *USE* of the relationship. Buy what we need. Smile for camera. Eat biscoot and drink chai alongside them. But that is as far as it will go. Certainly no point in picking quarrels from the past. But that does not mean that the future will be a smooth one either. Do not expect America to come to India's aid, in the event of a conflict. That is not about to happen. In fact, America has just proven to work against India's interests (DT offer to intervene in Kashmir).

Just happened last week and that is very much a 'present' quarrel :)

One can argue that DT is an aberration on America and a future US president will not do the same. But heck, who knew in Nov 2016 that DT was going to win the Presidency? And what is the guarantee that a future US administration will not do the same as DT did to India last week?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 30 Jul 2019 21:49

Karan M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Both countries should not approach relations as if we are starting from a blank slate. Historical Indian support for the USSR and the US support for Pakistan are both millstones that the respective establishments should throw overboard at the first instance.


Unless we make our own weapons and induct them, rely on them, this perennial weakness will continue.


Karan ji, the issue is this.. The world is not fighting industrial wars like WW II anymore. In that era, massive factories mass produced weapons like modern factories make cars or electronic equipment. Today, weapons are bespoke Ferrari like equipment that is 'lovingly hand crafted..'. They are almost artisanal in nature. E.g. the excaliber shell, that still has not been produced in six figures! In fact, the total number produced may be low five figures! This, when the US is engaged in numerous conflicts across the world! If one looks at comparable European systems, the numbers are even lower.

The nature of war has changed.. And they are best characterized as technological wars rather than industrial wars. (And lets not even get into information wars that look like a promising future avenue!)

If war fighting is technological and not industrial, how does a countries alliance system need to change? In the earlier era, we could go ask the Soviets to set up a Mig 21 or a T72 or an AK factory, because those weapons were 'industrial' in nature. Can we ask an alliance partner to set up an excaliber shell factory? That question is so ridiculous, its not. even. wrong. That weapon depends on numerous advances over decades and decades of relentless technological progress - Miniaturized, shock hardened electronics, micro-processor revolution, the entire GPS system which itself is the result of thirty years of hard work! Can a technology transfer of these systems even be attempted? What would it even mean? And lets not even get to things like the JSF which are far more complex than a simple artillery shell!

What works today is an international system of cooperation where weapons are integrated from subsystems sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain. This is how weapons are made. What is achievable is to plug into this system as one partner. To think about modern technology the way we thought about Mig 21 and the T72 is not even wrong.. It can not be bought. It can not be TOTd. And there is a long time before we develop the technological depth to develop systems ab-inito from scratch.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 30 Jul 2019 21:57

Rakesh wrote:@sudeep: All very good points.

Just one point of my own - the future that India sees and the future that the US sees are night and day. Unless those two visions meet, it will remain a very transactional relationship.

India has weapons to buy and America has weapons to sell. It is that simple. Everything else - strategic partnership, major defence partner, COMCASA, LEMOA, etc, etc, etc, - flows from that.

As you yourself pointed out ----> There is no concept of permanent friendship, principles or even enmity in international relations between nation states. And just as India has permanent interests, so does the United States. CAATSA proved that.

So make *USE* of the relationship. Buy what we need. Smile for camera. Eat biscoot and drink chai alongside them. But that is as far as it will go. Certainly no point in picking quarrels from the past. But that does not mean that the future will be a smooth one either. Do not expect America to come to India's aid, in the event of a conflict. That is not about to happen. In fact, America has just proven to work against India's interests (DT offer to intervene in Kashmir).

Just happened last week and that is very much a 'present' quarrel :)

One can argue that DT is an aberration on America and a future US president will not do the same. But heck, who knew in Nov 2016 that DT was going to win the Presidency? And what is the guarantee that a future US administration will not do the same as DT did to India last week?


I feel there is congruence in the vision, but the US is currently in the grip of a very transactional regime. This makes all relationships very tenuous. In the latest instance, the rump wants to get troops out of AfPak in time for his 2020 campaign and damn 'US/Indian interests/shared vision bs'. For that he needs Pak and will give them lollipops to get what he wants. If this gets Indians killed, its no skin off of his nose. This is no way to treat the ally the US was courting so furiously up until recently.. And I think babus will ensure that there will be a price to pay when the US realizes where its 'permanent interests' lie in several months time.

Apropos Russian weapons, we are caught between a Rock and a hard place. Fact is, Russia can jeopardize Indian security by sending a few emails to the Chinese. Even so, the S400 decision feels like it will only make us hostage to this blackmail even more than we already were.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2019 22:03

sudeepj wrote:What works today is an international system of cooperation where weapons are integrated from subsystems sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain. This is how weapons are made. What is achievable is to plug into this system as one partner. To think about modern technology the way we thought about Mig 21 and the T72 is not even wrong.. It can not be bought. It can not be TOTd. And there is a long time before we develop the technological depth to develop systems ab-inito from scratch.

How does the Arihant Class fit the above mold? Or the Akash-S1 SAM? Or the Agni series of missiles? How many "key" subsystems are sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain for these platforms?

At an international level, one can use France as an example. Mirage 2000? Rafale? Triomphant Class SSBN? Barracuda Class SSN? How many "key" subsystems are sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2019 22:07

sudeepj wrote:I feel there is congruence in the vision, but the US is currently in the grip of a very transactional regime. This makes all relationships very tenuous. In the latest instance, the rump wants to get troops out of AfPak in time for his 2020 campaign and damn 'US/Indian interests/shared vision bs'. For that he needs Pak and will give them lollipops to get what he wants. If this gets Indians killed, its no skin off of his nose. This is no way to treat the ally the US was courting so furiously up until recently.. And I think babus will ensure that there will be a price to pay when the US realizes where its 'permanent interests' lie in several months time.

Apropos Russian weapons, we are caught between a Rock and a hard place. Fact is, Russia can jeopardize Indian security by sending a few emails to the Chinese. Even so, the S-400 decision feels like it will only make us hostage to this blackmail even more than we already were.

Then the US needs to get its priorities together FIRST (or in vernacular terms...get your shit together), before we listen to parochial lectures (not you!) on the value of an Indo-US strategic partnership.

Another Fact -- US can jeopardize Indian security by sending a few emails to the Chinese and the Paks on the P-8I platform? Same game, no? :) The P-8I decision feels like it will only make us hostage to this blackmail even more than we already were.

Karan's statement below could not be any more true....

Karan M wrote:Unless we make our own weapons and induct them, rely on them, this perennial weakness will continue.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2019 22:24

@sudeep: Will the US - in her new avatar of providing salvation to India - provide the following ---> A Virginia Class boat on lease? Too complex for us to operate? Perhaps a Los Angeles Class boat then? How about assisting India in the creation of a nuclear reactor to mount on an SSBN like the Arihant Class?

We asked our benevolent saviour - the US of A - for jet engine tech. We all know how that ended.

In case, you missed that news. Here it is ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2364380#p2364380

India must take a leap of faith on America and trust her. Why is that not reciprocated then?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2019 22:45

sudeepj wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
Before doing = = watch the video where readtd. RAW chief N.K. Sood says how CIA funds commies and other separatist orgs in Bharat, to actively weaken Bharat.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1240258899468337&id=574079826086251

Russians give nuclear subs, Bramhos joint venture...

US gives humiliating cismoa for its platforms


1. Russians did not 'give' us anything. We paid for it. Can you please refrain from portraying India as a supplicant before Russia?



Even if we are ready to pay usa isn't ready to give/lease/sell us any nuclear submarines. In fact they have imposed humiliating CISMOA on us despite their own saying "customer is god", imagine somebody buying car and then company suddenly orders them to present their car for inspection in case customer has fiddled with the car. Leave out any Sea Wolf class lease they won't even lease us their Los Angeles subs.

Enemy america wants wants to actively destroy and break India in many pieces. Russians don't.

Enemy america wants us to tie our resources in a monster aircraft carrier but even their they don't want to give/lease/sell the nuclear reactor for it, they want us to manage reactor from russia but buy their failed EMAL system, so under cismoa they will be able to insert their spies on our carrier under garb of cismoa checks.

Russia never ever threatens with sanctions to India. But Enemy america wants to take away our freedom to decide from where we purchase our weaponery.

YOU ARE OBJECTING BY SAYING :
"can you please refrain from portraying India as a supplicant before Russia?"

BUT YOU HAVE DOUBLE STANDARDS (and this isn't past but happening NOW & HERE) :
You are making a case for us siding with same 20 trillion america who has put sanction like CAATSA against us, and for every deal makes us go and beg to america for a waiver so we the indirect-colony of america can buy weapons from our own money. WHERE IS YOUR SELF-RESPECT AS A BHARATVAASI HERE? Nope these aren't things of past.

Trump's threat of intervention in kashmir is actually a threat by nation of usa. As bill clinton is standing polar opposite of Trump in political stage. But clinton also put all his energy in intervention of kashmir from 93'. No you are wrong to say I am living in past. Its very much happening NOW&HERE.

It may be your thinking that being a 20 trillion $ economy we have to submit to usa, I have every right to oppose. The truth is through thousands of crores this great economic giant is financing every breaking India force actively.

"Our enemity is dangerous, but our friendship is fatal" said Henry Kissinger. We did naval excercise with usa and our kilo class had some russian tech that detects submarines with nuclear propulsion. We revealed to them that at this point their Los Angeles ssn was tracked and we also revealed the technique of Kilo Class.

We are only being destroyed and crushed very very slowly under the facade of this friendship.

Nope there's nothing of the past, its happening in present only some chose to have double standards. I remember in old times american supporters here used to say "...oh no it wasn't america but clinton...." Now some will say "...oh no it isn't america but drumpfff the adolf..."

Some will try to paint the objector as "living in past", but its a well thought out policy, usa is enemy just like china, pak, britain.

I am no russia lover in fact some among my myriad warings and bans have been fighting fiercly against russki peddlers.

But russia isn't a threat to us. Russia doesn't want to break us in many pieces, usa does.


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