General Indian Military News & Discussion

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Manish_Sharma
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2019 23:02

Rakesh wrote: In fact, America has just proven to work against India's interests (DT offer to intervene in Kashmir).

Just happened last week and that is very much a 'present' quarrel :)

One can argue that DT is an aberration on America and a future US president will not do the same. But heck, who knew in Nov 2016 that DT was going to win the Presidency? And what is the guarantee that a future US administration will not do the same as DT did to India last week?


As bill clinton is extreme left of trump, he too did same , at that time people were pointing out clinton as an exception; in fact america is against us.

Here is from Suhasini Haider article:

In 1993, the new administration of U.S. President Bill Clinton decided to wade into the Kashmir issue, indicating repeatedly that it wished to mediate between India and Pakistan. At the U.N. General Assembly in September, Mr. Clinton referred to resolving “civil wars from Angola to the Caucasus to Kashmir,” and a month later, the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Robin Raphel questioned the validity of Kashmir’s ‘Instrument of Accession’ during a press briefing.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 30 Jul 2019 23:18

Russia is no saint. Neither is America.

Both Russia or America will screw us if it suits their interests and have done so, repeatedly, despite the propensity of supporters of either side to selectively remember history and cherry pick the facts that suit their pet likes and dislikes.

Both the Russia Rakshaks (there are some notorious ones on this forum) and the MUTU types are deluded, stupid, and dangerous. We need to ruthlessly pursue our own interests, which might change over time and based on the context, while keeping history in mind but living in the present. Nothing else matters.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Jul 2019 02:30

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:What works today is an international system of cooperation where weapons are integrated from subsystems sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain. This is how weapons are made. What is achievable is to plug into this system as one partner. To think about modern technology the way we thought about Mig 21 and the T72 is not even wrong.. It can not be bought. It can not be TOTd. And there is a long time before we develop the technological depth to develop systems ab-inito from scratch.

How does the Arihant Class fit the above mold? Or the Akash-S1 SAM? Or the Agni series of missiles? How many "key" subsystems are sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain for these platforms?

At an international level, one can use France as an example. Mirage 2000? Rafale? Triomphant Class SSBN? Barracuda Class SSN? How many "key" subsystems are sourced from a global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain?


There are sub-systems that are sourced externally. We are not NK. Having said that, none of those three systems can help us win the war imposed on us by Pak or the economic/political coercion forced on us by the Chinese. At best, they keep the window of conflict open. To win a conflict against Pak on our own terms, we need things like: SDBs, PGKs, Navigation equipment, command control, electronics.. missiles like meteor, javelin, etc. etc. etc. These are not fairy tale weapons, they are all partially or completely implemented and available for use.

For all other current/future platforms you pointed out - Rafale, Triomphant, Barracuda - two are strategic platforms designed for cold war type conflicts. Rafale is something that can be used by us, but is prohibitively expensive precisely because its not plugged in to the global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain. Its on its little island, and we can only procure laughably small numbers. The french technological island alone can not provide the edge that we need.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Jul 2019 02:34

Manish_Sharma wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
1. Russians did not 'give' us anything. We paid for it. Can you please refrain from portraying India as a supplicant before Russia?



Even if we are ready to pay usa isn't ready to give/lease/sell us any nuclear submarines. ... Enemy america wants wants to actively destroy and break India in many pieces. ... We are only being destroyed and crushed very very slowly under the facade of this friendship.

....
Some will try to paint the objector as "living in past", but its a well thought out policy, usa is enemy just like china, pak, britain.

I am no russia lover in fact some among my myriad warings and bans have been fighting fiercly against russki peddlers.

But russia isn't a threat to us. Russia doesn't want to break us in many pieces, usa does.


Saar.. I dont need to paint you as "living in the past".. you do a very good job of that yourself. The quickest way to lose the future is to pick a quarrel with the past. <-- [Said by Winston Churchill, genocidal maniac, murderer of millions of Indians, war criminal, and foremost racist. The past is the past. Look at the future. ]

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby V_Raman » 31 Jul 2019 02:36

How come we could afford M2000 from that French island and not the Rafale? For a projected 5T economy, we should be able to afford it!! Yes we need our own for bulk of the fleet. But I don’t understand why we can’t afford a fleet of Rafale like the SU30.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Jul 2019 02:38

Rakesh wrote:@sudeep: Will the US - in her new avatar of providing salvation to India - provide the following ---> A Virginia Class boat on lease? Too complex for us to operate? Perhaps a Los Angeles Class boat then? How about assisting India in the creation of a nuclear reactor to mount on an SSBN like the Arihant Class?

We asked our benevolent saviour - the US of A - for jet engine tech. We all know how that ended.

In case, you missed that news. Here it is ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2364380#p2364380

India must take a leap of faith on America and trust her. Why is that not reciprocated then?


Will India provide the Taj Mahal or the Konark Sun Temple on lease? How about the Andamans then for a US base?

Virginia class, LA class, jet engines.. are strategic advantages for the US. If we had these we would not 'give' them away. Why should we expect them to 'give' it to them? In return for what?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Jul 2019 02:41

V_Raman wrote:How come we could afford M2000 from that French island and not the Rafale? For a projected 5T economy, we should be able to afford it!! Yes we need our own for bulk of the fleet. But I don’t understand why we can’t afford a fleet of Rafale like the SU30.


Total Mirage 2000 produced: ~ 600
Total Rafale produced: 175-200(??)
F16: 4600
Su30/27: 1200(??)
JSF: ...

Numbers from Wiki, so take it with a bit of salt.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2019 03:22

sudeepj wrote:
Rakesh wrote:@sudeep: Will the US - in her new avatar of providing salvation to India - provide the following ---> A Virginia Class boat on lease? Too complex for us to operate? Perhaps a Los Angeles Class boat then? How about assisting India in the creation of a nuclear reactor to mount on an SSBN like the Arihant Class?

We asked our benevolent saviour - the US of A - for jet engine tech. We all know how that ended.

In case, you missed that news. Here it is ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2364380#p2364380

India must take a leap of faith on America and trust her. Why is that not reciprocated then?


Will India provide the Taj Mahal or the Konark Sun Temple on lease? How about the Andamans then for a US base?

Virginia class, LA class, jet engines.. are strategic advantages for the US. If we had these we would not 'give' them away. Why should we expect them to 'give' it to them? In return for what?

So now let me ask this again, but just change a few words :)

Did Russia provide the following? ---> A Charlie I Class SSN on lease? They indeed did. K-43 was leased from 1988 to 1992.
And repeated again for a second time ---> An Akula Class (the Nerpa) SSN on lease. The Nerpa is on a ten year lease from 2012.
And will be repeated again for a third time ---> Another Akula Class SSN on lease -- either the Kashalot or the Iribis, starting from the early 2020s.

A nuclear boat is a strategic advantage, no? One would imagine that Russia is providing these boats without a formal title status awarded to India, called Major Defence Partner :)

Did Russia assist India in the creation of a nuclear reactor to mount on an SSBN like the Arihant Class? They indeed did.

Arihant: How Russia helped deliver India’s baby boomer
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_tha ... mer_533849

“India then sought and got much more substantial Russian help than had been envisaged earlier. The construction of the submarine’s hull began in 1998, and a basically Russian-designed 83 megawatt pressurised-water reactor was fitted in the hull nine years later.” Ashok Parthasarthi, a former science and technology adviser to the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, sums up the extent of Russian assistance: “India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant...would have just been impossible to realise without Russia’s massive all-round consultancy, technology transfer, technical services and training, technical 'know-how' and 'show-how,' design of the submarine as a whole, and above all numerous operational 'tips' based on 50 years of experience in designing, building and operating nuclear submarines.” According to Bidwai, “Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the DAE and DRDO....It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.” And if there were any doubts about the extent of Russian involvement, they were cast away on July 26, 2009 when 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants – all participants in the project – attended the boomer’s launch ceremony at Visakhapatnam on the east coast.

I am no fanboy (like Philip Saar) of the Russians. There is much to whine and complain about the Russians! But you got to give credit, where credit is due. To date, the Americans have been only bluster on strategic platforms and pouts when India buys the S-400 (a strategic platform) from Russia.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2019 03:29

Bart S wrote:Russia is no saint. Neither is America.

Both Russia or America will screw us if it suits their interests and have done so, repeatedly, despite the propensity of supporters of either side to selectively remember history and cherry pick the facts that suit their pet likes and dislikes.

Both the Russia Rakshaks (there are some notorious ones on this forum) and the MUTU types are deluded, stupid and dangerous. We need to ruthlessly pursue our own interests, which might change over time and based on the context, while keeping history in mind but living in the present. Nothing else matters.

+108! :)

To a large degree, one can understand the Russia Rakshaks. Most of our military equipment is Russian. That bias will be there for the foreseeable future. It is even present in the Armed Forces!

However, the MUTUs on BRF I cannot understand. That one is puzzling to me.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Jul 2019 04:52

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Will India provide the Taj Mahal or the Konark Sun Temple on lease? How about the Andamans then for a US base?

Virginia class, LA class, jet engines.. are strategic advantages for the US. If we had these we would not 'give' them away. Why should we expect them to 'give' it to them? In return for what?

So now let me ask this again, but just change a few words :)

Did Russia provide the following? ---> A Charlie I Class SSN on lease? They indeed did. K-43 was leased from 1988 to 1992.
And repeated again for a second time ---> An Akula Class (the Nerpa) SSN on lease. The Nerpa is on a ten year lease from 2012.
And will be repeated again for a third time ---> Another Akula Class SSN on lease -- either the Kashalot or the Iribis, starting from the early 2020s.

A nuclear boat is a strategic advantage, no? One would imagine that Russia is providing these boats without a formal title status awarded to India, called Major Defence Partner :)

Did Russia assist India in the creation of a nuclear reactor to mount on an SSBN like the Arihant Class? They indeed did.

Arihant: How Russia helped deliver India’s baby boomer
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_tha ... mer_533849

“India then sought and got much more substantial Russian help than had been envisaged earlier. The construction of the submarine’s hull began in 1998, and a basically Russian-designed 83 megawatt pressurised-water reactor was fitted in the hull nine years later.” Ashok Parthasarthi, a former science and technology adviser to the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, sums up the extent of Russian assistance: “India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant...would have just been impossible to realise without Russia’s massive all-round consultancy, technology transfer, technical services and training, technical 'know-how' and 'show-how,' design of the submarine as a whole, and above all numerous operational 'tips' based on 50 years of experience in designing, building and operating nuclear submarines.” According to Bidwai, “Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the DAE and DRDO....It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.” And if there were any doubts about the extent of Russian involvement, they were cast away on July 26, 2009 when 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants – all participants in the project – attended the boomer’s launch ceremony at Visakhapatnam on the east coast.

I am no fanboy (like Philip Saar) of the Russians. There is much to whine and complain about the Russians! But you got to give credit, where credit is due. To date, the Americans have been only bluster on strategic platforms and pouts when India buys the S-400 (a strategic platform) from Russia.


Rakesh ji

1. Russia provided X and US provided thenga, while nominally true, ignores the political and strategic context in which these transfers happened. We had signed a treaty with the Russians. We voted in the UN with them. There was a lose understanding, which side we were on. We had good relations with client states of the Rus, such as Cuba, Iran, Venezuela etc.

2. What if we were to sign a treaty with the US? Honestly, I dont know if strategic weapons technology can be expected from the US. [edited- Ramana]

3. Even if the Rus helped us do the Arihant, fact is, it has not changed the nature of the Salami slicing warfare faced by us. Pulwama happened. Our response, while gratifying to my heart, still left a lot to be desired. We could well see another Pulwama tomorrow and our response will be tested.. Arihant is almost a NOP (No operation/ null operation) in this scenario.

4. Rus did help us in the past, but their programs have run out of steam. Their stealth fighter will be one among many others, perhaps even behind rafale. I have repeatedly used the word 'vestigial' about their programs. Please name one post cold war platform. T90/Flanker are both cold war programs. The T14 armor and the stealth fighter are unknown quantities..

5. International relations are always about the future.. And the futuristic weapons are almost all American. And this when the US has scaled down its military investments. If there were to be a new cold war, one can expect the expenses to rise up again. Then the US is an economy and a system that provides us with a huge market. If it were not for weapons, what would we sell/buy with the Russians? And in what quantities? How much Chai can we sell them?

6. One problem I see with the US system is that it almost requires the loss of 'subjectivity'. If you are a Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy.. you have to accept the US wasp-y type of system. India is a Dharmic country. Are we expected to submit to US ideas as well, if we were to be a part of that alliance system? France offers one potential model, but France is France. Will the US agree to letting us be a France? And how can the cultural aggression from American churches, silicon valley companies, publishing/opinion forming organizations go on like it has and the US/India alliance system even come into existence?
Last edited by ramana on 09 Aug 2019 04:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jul 2019 05:21

sudeepj wrote:
Virginia class, LA class, jet engines.. are strategic advantages for the US. If we had these we would not 'give' them away. Why should we expect them to 'give' it to them? In return for what?


You trivialise Chakra lease, as "so what's the big deal Russians are giving it for money" Shucka B is their Seawolf taj mahal whatever...

Exercise seems to be diluting Russians and rationalizing everything of america in positive

While there's big talk of superiority of usa platforms and technology. Truth is its dangerous how US managed to suppress the news of Boeing sending junked faulty broken down equipment as C-17 offsets transonic wind tunnel facility. Media politicians all are afraid to protest and expose American cheats. This is the iron grip usa has.

This is how usa turns a nation into Indirect-Colony

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 31 Jul 2019 06:23

Manish - take the whole picture - the so called Russian help during Cold War of cheap weapons with coats hidden in plain sight, or the T90 fiasco, the Gorshkov price gouging, etc.

Moral of the story - east and west, swadeshi is the best!!

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 31 Jul 2019 08:53

Manish_Sharma wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Virginia class, LA class, jet engines.. are strategic advantages for the US. If we had these we would not 'give' them away. Why should we expect them to 'give' it to them? In return for what?


You trivialise Chakra lease, as "so what's the big deal Russians are giving it for money" Shucka B is their Seawolf taj mahal whatever...

Exercise seems to be diluting Russians and rationalizing everything of america in positive

While there's big talk of superiority of usa platforms and technology. Truth is its dangerous how US managed to suppress the news of Boeing sending junked faulty broken down equipment as C-17 offsets transonic wind tunnel facility. Media politicians all are afraid to protest and expose American cheats. This is the iron grip usa has.

This is how usa turns a nation into Indirect-Colony


And you are turning it into a some act of charity by divorcing it from the political, economic & strategic context it happened in. States dont do things for charity.. Russia must have seen something in this transfer, if more reasons than a billion dollars were needed.

The superiority of US products is shown in their track record. The entire world runs on US technology.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jul 2019 19:39

sudeepj wrote:The superiority of US products is shown in their track record. The entire world runs on US technology.


What is the meaning of superiority if they're too precious tajmahals to be shared with us?

Should we make a replica miniature of Virginia/Seawolf etc and put in army navy IAF headquarters? Like amriki admiral had Yasen model made for his office.

But I can see not only Shucka B is irrelevant but even our own Arihant is irrelevant for you. Only america and its superior tech can save us from pakis and chinese.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jul 2019 19:43

sudeepj wrote:To win a conflict against Pak on our own terms, we need things like: SDBs, PGKs, Navigation equipment, command control, electronics.. missiles like meteor, javelin, etc. etc. etc.


In javelin usa stipulated they will only sell us very very limited number of launchers OTHERWISE IT WILL TILT THE BALANCE TOO MUCH AGAINST pakistan.

So if this is sort of thinking behind protecting us ...

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 01 Aug 2019 00:06

Manish_Sharma wrote:
sudeepj wrote:To win a conflict against Pak on our own terms, we need things like: SDBs, PGKs, Navigation equipment, command control, electronics.. missiles like meteor, javelin, etc. etc. etc.


In javelin usa stipulated they will only sell us very very limited number of launchers OTHERWISE IT WILL TILT THE BALANCE TOO MUCH AGAINST pakistan.

So if this is sort of thinking behind protecting us ...


The US Army is not sitting in its forts. They are deployed in Afghanistan, fighting a shooting war, in which they lost several thousand lives and perhaps 10 times as many wounded. Why will they give you a technology that you can then use **without consultations with them** and compromise their supply lines?

If India had taken initiative to completely open the Chahbahar port and supply lines, proposed some kind of modus vivendi between Iranians and the Jews, perhaps the US would have had a different option. Perhaps all logistics could be transhipped from a Mumbai or Gujarat port through Chahbahar..

Now please dont take this to mean that I am saying, that the US does not act in bad faith, or does not make huge strategic blunders.. I am simply criticizing a lost opportunity by us and trying to see things from a US point of view. Ten - fifteen years is a long time and we could have created strategic options, had we worked on them.

Pakistanis have consistently made themselves useful for the Americans, or at least made false promises about being useful.. We sit in our corner pouting, pointing out what is it exactly, that the US is doing wrong.. and not acting to make ourselves useful. In the NAM era, we were foremost in complaining about how the world was.. Never acted to fix things.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 01 Aug 2019 00:15

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Will India provide the Taj Mahal or the Konark Sun Temple on lease? How about the Andamans then for a US base?

Virginia class, LA class, jet engines.. are strategic advantages for the US. If we had these we would not 'give' them away. Why should we expect them to 'give' it to them? In return for what?

So now let me ask this again, but just change a few words :)

Did Russia provide the following? ---> A Charlie I Class SSN on lease? They indeed did. K-43 was leased from 1988 to 1992.
And repeated again for a second time ---> An Akula Class (the Nerpa) SSN on lease. The Nerpa is on a ten year lease from 2012.
And will be repeated again for a third time ---> Another Akula Class SSN on lease -- either the Kashalot or the Iribis, starting from the early 2020s.

A nuclear boat is a strategic advantage, no? One would imagine that Russia is providing these boats without a formal title status awarded to India, called Major Defence Partner :)
...

To date, the Americans have been only bluster on strategic platforms and pouts when India buys the S-400 (a strategic platform) from Russia.


Rakesh ji, coming back to this post.. I want to point out that most Russian systems are 'all or nothing' weapons, when in reality, our defense posture is not about all or nothing. We can float as many Cold Starts as we want, its not happening. Its telling, that in the Don Bass region, Russian invasion was mostly about compromising the population there and using militias.. Classic 4G stuff.

What we need is stuff that can fight Salami Slicing, stuff that gives us a decisive advantage in subliminal 4G warfare. Most such stuff is really really refined/high tech, and most Russian platforms are industrial, rather than high tech.

Coming to the nature of high tech.. technology is incremental in nature. We get criticized for reinventing the wheel, but if no one is selling you a wheel, you do need to reinvent a wheel to get a chariot!

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2019 11:38

sudeepj wrote:Rakesh ji

Aiyoo! Drop the ji please :) And this is a long post, so when replying....do not quote the entire post please.

sudeepj wrote:1. Russia provided X and US provided thenga, while nominally true, ignores the political and strategic context in which these transfers happened. We had signed a treaty with the Russians. We voted in the UN with them. There was a lose understanding, which side we were on. We had good relations with client states of the Rus, such as Cuba, Iran, Venezuela etc.

Is India not living (literally!) in "trying" political and strategic times vis-à-viv China? We share a border with them. They illegally hold a portion of Ladakh (Aksai Chin). We fought a war in 1962 and lost. We had a border skirmish in 1987. We have numerous border flare ups in the past decade alone. As George Fernades said in the late 90s, China is Enemy No 1. And to the US, it is no different. The Chinese are a thorn in their side too.

We have signed agreements with the US i.e. BECA, LEMOA, COMCASA. The last one is especially crucial, because it gives India access to some key technologies. The US Govt has granted India the status of Major Defence Partner. If you listen to some of the spin masters on BRF, India and US were in a perpetual honeymoon phase during the Carter-Parrikar regime.

With a common enemy as China and the bonhomie between the two nations, do you honestly believe it is wise for the US Administration to dangle the noose of CAATSA over India's head? Agreeing to intervene in the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan? Tacitly send some intern from the Pentagon to go and count the PAF's F-16 fleet and then proudly claim that no F-16s were lost in Feb? I mean, whose side is the US really on?

Rhetorical question Saar. Because you already answered it ---> There is no concept of permanent friendship, principles or even enmity in international relations between nation states.

And since such a scenario has not existed in the past, is not existing in the present and will not exist in the future...is it wise for India (who is slowly wrangling itself out of Russia's embrace) to jump into the arms of the US without even giving any thought? I do not believe that is a wise idea.

sudeepj wrote:2. What if we were to sign a treaty with the US? Honestly, I dont know if strategic weapons technology can be expected from the US. (btw. there is significant partnership and enabling by the US for Indian programs. I wont say what I know because its not publicly known information.. but the cooperation for many 'name brand' strategic Indian capabilities is there.. We would be hard pressed to get these operational if it were not for the type of cooperation that was there. I.e. we plugged into a global supply chain of technology, ideas and hardware..)

If they are not going to provide their crown jewels (to be very honest, I would be surprised if they did!), then the relationship will remain very much a transactional one. And in my humble opinion, it would be best if it stays that way. Buy what we need, but this aligning-with-the-US drama is quite frankly nauseating.

And may whatever they are co-operating and partnering together on, achieve success. But that does not mean we should be joined at the hip.

sudeepj wrote:3. Even if the Rus helped us do the Arihant, fact is, it has not changed the nature of the Salami slicing warfare faced by us. Pulwama happened. Our response, while gratifying to my heart, still left a lot to be desired. We could well see another Pulwama tomorrow and our response will be tested.. Arihant is almost a NOP (No operation/ null operation) in this scenario.

And just like in the previous Pulwama episode, the US will certainly not come to our aid in a future encounter either.

And in a future Pulwama encounter, if it escalates into all out war.....the IN can silently move Arihant to a strategic location to strike if required. If the Russians did not help on the reactor design, good luck on having the Arihant.

India also needs a nuclear triad (air, land and sea), no? Or are we expecting Ohio Class SSBNs to come to our aid?

sudeepj wrote:4. Rus did help us in the past, but their programs have run out of steam. Their stealth fighter will be one among many others, perhaps even behind rafale. I have repeatedly used the word 'vestigial' about their programs. Please name one post cold war platform. T90/Flanker are both cold war programs. The T14 armor and the stealth fighter are unknown quantities..

So let us talk about the one US program that is moving at full steam - the F-35. That is a fairly strategic and state-of-the-art program, would you agree? They are willing to sell F-21 with F-35 tech, but no F-35 :) I do not want to compare programs, as the F-35 is way ahead of the Su-57. And where ever the Su-57 is sitting on the technological totem pole and no matter how cunning the Russians are being again (by offering India co-development :D) on the Su-57 program, the point remains is that at least the Russians are willing to open the door to this. How about the US?

I can think of one program that is causing quite a bit of takleef to the US - the S-400 and the up-coming S-500. And they are trying every trick in the book to convince nations to not get the S-400 system. They are taking a page right out of the late US President Lyndon Baines Johnson's playbook ---> The Johnson Treatment, which has been described as incredible potent mixture of persuasion, badgering, flattery, threats, reminders of past favors and future advantages. The latter is not even guaranteed!

sudeepj wrote:5. International relations are always about the future.. And the futuristic weapons are almost all American. And this when the US has scaled down its military investments. If there were to be a new cold war, one can expect the expenses to rise up again. Then the US is an economy and a system that provides us with a huge market. If it were not for weapons, what would we sell/buy with the Russians? And in what quantities? How much Chai can we sell them?

You are making some very dangerous assumptions there my friend! :)

But the main point is this - How much of those futuristic weapons will India get her hands on? Do you have a quantifiable number or a percentage? You are assuming that India will just be given access to them? On what basis?

India asked for engine tech. India got shown the door. That was a given anyway. Why talk about futuristic weapons, when India cannot even get bread-and-butter components?

sudeepj wrote:6. One problem I see with the US system is that it almost requires the loss of 'subjectivity'. If you are a Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy.. you have to accept the US wasp-y type of system. India is a Dharmic country. Are we expected to submit to US ideas as well, if we were to be a part of that alliance system? France offers one potential model, but France is France. Will the US agree to letting us be a France? And how can the cultural aggression from American churches, silicon valley companies, publishing/opinion forming organizations go on like it has and the US/India alliance system even come into existence?

So India wanting to be like France (with its own MIC) is now a threat to the existence of the American MIC? Why do we need the US to agree if India wanted to be like France?

And you are *OKAY* with the cultural aggression from American churches, silicon valley companies, publishing/opinion forming organizations go on like it has?

Dude, what is wrong with you? I am not doing a personal attack on you. But I am surprised how you can make such a statement!

Are you even for real? I am incredulous and flabbergasted! :shock:

sudeepj wrote:There are sub-systems that are sourced externally. We are not NK. Having said that, none of those three systems can help us win the war imposed on us by Pak or the economic/political coercion forced on us by the Chinese. At best, they keep the window of conflict open. To win a conflict against Pak on our own terms, we need things like: SDBs, PGKs, Navigation equipment, command control, electronics.. missiles like meteor, javelin, etc. etc. etc. These are not fairy tale weapons, they are all partially or completely implemented and available for use.

Why don't you enlighten us and tell us what sub-systems are sourced externally in those platforms?

You do realize that Meteor is from MBDA, a European consortium? From a cost perspective sense, it is a fairly tale weapon onlee!

As for the other stuff, India has made or is making significant inroads in acquiring them locally. Here are some examples...

* The Indian Army's AWAN (Army Wide Area Network)
* Secure Cloud Storage for the Indian Army --> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 643144.cms
* The Shakti Artillery Combat Command and Control System (ACCCS)
* India's Sterlite Tech is building the Indian Navy's new digital network
* AFNet is the Indian Air Force's new digital information & communication grid
* Bharat Electronics Ltd has an entire host of electronic/navigation systems (way too long to list). Just visit website ---> http://www.bel-india.in/Products.aspx?M ... =1&link=59
* Man Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MP-ATGM)
* DRDO's Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW)
* Stand-Off Anti-Tank Guided Missile (SANT)
* ADE's Sudarshan laser-guided bomb
* Prahaar tactical ballistic missile
* Helina anti-tank guided missile
* Shaurya hypersonic missile
* Pralay ballistic missile
* Nirbhay cruise missile
* NPOL's USHUS sonar
* Astra BVRAAM
* Etc, Etc, Etc

All systems that can help us win the war imposed on us by Pak or the economic/political coercion forced on us by the Chinese. Unless you have some evidence that proves otherwise. And you can add Arihant, Akash-1S and Agni to the above list.

sudeepj wrote:For all other current/future platforms you pointed out - Rafale, Triomphant, Barracuda - two are strategic platforms designed for cold war type conflicts. Rafale is something that can be used by us, but is prohibitively expensive precisely because its not plugged in to the global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain. Its on its little island, and we can only procure laughably small numbers. The french technological island alone can not provide the edge that we need.

Allow me to provide with you with some figures. Are you aware of the amount budgeted for 57 naval fighters for the Indian Navy? Rs 95,000 crore and the last time I checked that was around USD $15 billion. The F-18 is a contender for this contest, along with the Rafale M, Sea Gripen and the MiG-29K. If the F-18 wins (very likely), it will cost nothing less than $15 billion. And that US $15 billion is just a starting point! Now do you know how much the new Vikrant costs? US $2.8 billion and to be fair....that cost will continue to rise till commissioning. But it will be nowhere close to US $15 billion. Now with that US $15 billion figure, would you like to venture a guess as to how much 114 F-16s or F-18s is going to cost the Indian Air Force? Or for that matter, any of the other MMRCA aircraft in the contest? BTW, 57 x 2 = 114. Just Saying!

You are making the same mistake that the spin masters on BRF made during the Single Engine Fighter contest. F-16 is dirt cheap for the USAF, so that automatically will translate into dirt cheap prices for the Indian Air Force! One spin master on BRF went even as far as to say that a weapons-free F-16 Block 70/72 will cost the IAF, nothing more than $45 million per aircraft! This is the same dude that said the IAF will get 200 F-16s and 100 F-18s and it is the price that India must pay for US engine tech :lol: Never mind that how these 300 American birds will fit into the IAF's ORBAT. Details like that are inconsequential to him!

You are making assumptions again my friend :) You are assuming that since the goodness & fatness of the global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain flows out of the US and that somehow and in some hallowed & divine manner, those blessed droppings are going to miraculously fall on India. The only thing India must do is align herself with the US. You need to drop that notion or provide some concrete evidence to prove your statement.

sudeepj wrote:I want to point out that most Russian systems are 'all or nothing' weapons, when in reality, our defense posture is not about all or nothing. We can float as many Cold Starts as we want, its not happening. Its telling, that in the Don Bass region, Russian invasion was mostly about compromising the population there and using militias.. Classic 4G stuff.

What we need is stuff that can fight Salami Slicing, stuff that gives us a decisive advantage in subliminal 4G warfare. Most such stuff is really really refined/high tech, and most Russian platforms are industrial, rather than high tech.

And American systems are not all or nothing? Can you even put a Russian missile on a US-origin fighter or put a US-origin missile on a Russian fighter? I am sure you know the answer to that. And I am not referring to the technical ability, but rather whether the US OEMs will allow such a move.

The IAF has done that though. The Mirage 2000 carries the R-73E close combat missile. French Aircraft, Russian Missile. The Su-30MKI is expected to carry the AIM-132 ASRAAM in the future. Russian Aircraft, Western Missile. Good luck doing that on an American platform i.e. F-16 or F-18. Honestly, Good Luck!

sudeepj wrote:Coming to the nature of high tech.. technology is incremental in nature. We get criticized for reinventing the wheel, but if no one is selling you a wheel, you do need to reinvent a wheel to get a chariot!

So then allows us to reinvent the wheel (Kaveri engine) to get the chariot (Tejas) going. Give us the tech! :lol:

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2019 11:41

Vivek K wrote:Manish - take the whole picture - the so called Russian help during Cold War of cheap weapons with coats hidden in plain sight, or the T90 fiasco, the Gorshkov price gouging, etc.

Moral of the story - east and west, swadeshi is the best!!

Agree with the bolded part, but till the swadeshi equipment was available....what other choice did India have? We took the Russian maal, warts and all. You play with the hand you are dealt.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 01 Aug 2019 13:07

sudeepj wrote:If India had taken initiative to completely open the Chahbahar port and supply lines, proposed some kind of modus vivendi between Iranians and the Jews, perhaps the US would have had a different option. Perhaps all logistics could be transhipped from a Mumbai or Gujarat port through Chahbahar..

Are you even reading what you wrote? You are aware where Chabahar lies don't you? It lies in Iran, one of the places that your country labels as a part of "Axis of evil", has imposed sanctions against and also threatened with military action. Are you really naive enough to believe that Iranians will be overjoyed to allow huge quantities of weapons, munitions and explosives meant for use by Americans, to transit through their country?

Someone give this guy a medal.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Aug 2019 14:36

sudeepj wrote:5. International relations are always about the future.. And the futuristic weapons are almost all American. And this when the US has scaled down its military investments. If there were to be a new cold war, one can expect the expenses to rise up again. Then the US is an economy and a system that provides us with a huge market. If it were not for weapons, what would we sell/buy with the Russians? And in what quantities? How much Chai can we sell them?

Americans are just trying to make sure nobody can reach their level of tech .. you need investments and expertise.. russia has expertise and india can invest if both can trust each other to that level. China can do this on their own to some extent. Japan South Korea turkey all have some pockets of excellence but still riding on uncles coat tails.. turkey trying to grow out and uncle has cut it loose. Russia without indian investments in science and tech cannot grow further. China is not going to do it. Out of EU, only France is somewhat independent in its programs and vision.
Last edited by kit on 01 Aug 2019 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Aug 2019 15:36

Manish_Sharma wrote:While there's big talk of superiority of usa platforms and technology. Truth is its dangerous how US managed to suppress the news of Boeing sending junked faulty broken down equipment as C-17 offsets transonic wind tunnel facility. Media politicians all are afraid to protest and expose American cheats. This is the iron grip usa has.

This is how usa turns a nation into Indirect-Colony

please elaborate., anything reported ? its not working i presume ?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 02 Aug 2019 02:12

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Rakesh ji

Aiyoo! Drop the ji please :) And this is a long post, so when replying....do not quote the entire post please.


Arya Rakesh,

Please dont take my relative criticism of Indian babus to mean that the conduct has been good. It has been short sighted, downright vicious in cultivating ******** like Khalilzad and there can be many many criticisms. However, the only behavior we can really control is our own. Given that the nature of the Amir Khan is not going to change, could we have acted differently to reach different outcomes? That is the question I am trying to pose.

One can take the position that this question does not need posing and we will force the Khan to deal with us on our own terms. Or at least play hard ball to make them listen to some of our concerns. These are valid positions to hold and I have no quarrel with them if they are stated as such.

With a common enemy as China and the bonhomie between the two nations, do you honestly believe it is wise for the US Administration to dangle the noose of CAATSA over India's head? Agreeing to intervene in the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan? Tacitly send some intern from the Pentagon to go and count the PAF's F-16 fleet and then proudly claim that no F-16s were lost in Feb?


No, all of these are down right idiotic. Particularly the CAATSA threat while an election was going on! When the time comes, the US diplomats will have to work harder to REwin Indian trust.

...

And may whatever they are co-operating and partnering together on, achieve success. But that does not mean we should be joined at the hip.


I dont think a large country like India, potentially a G2 member in the next century can be joined at the hip with any country. Yet, if there is advantage is temporarily bandwagoning with another powerful group, there is no harm in doing so. The G2/G3/G5 dreams are yet dreams and in the future. Lets figure out a way to get to that future in the fastest and the least painful way possible.

sudeepj wrote:3. Even if the Rus helped us do the Arihant, fact is, it has not changed the nature of the Salami slicing warfare faced by us. Pulwama happened. Our response, while gratifying to my heart, still left a lot to be desired. We could well see another Pulwama tomorrow and our response will be tested.. Arihant is almost a NOP (No operation/ null operation) in this scenario.

And just like in the previous Pulwama episode, the US will certainly not come to our aid in a future encounter either. And in a future Pulwama encounter, if it escalates into all out war.....the IN can silently move Arihant to a strategic location to strike if required. If the Russians did not help on the reactor design, good luck on having the Arihant.


It is my considered opinion that Arihant had 0 impact on the Pulwama proceedings. An SSN could potentially have had a greater impact than Arihant.. but its not clear what the terms of Chakra lease are. In Chakra 1, we had russi officers posted on board, and it wasnt clear if we would be allowed to use it in a shooting war.

So let us talk about the one US program that is moving at full steam - the F-35. That is a fairly strategic and state-of-the-art program, would you agree? They are willing to sell F-21 with F-35 tech, but no F-35 :) I do not want to compare programs, as the F-35 is way ahead of the Su-57. And where ever the Su-57 is sitting on the technological totem pole and no matter how cunning the Russians are being again (by offering India co-development :D) on the Su-57 program, the point remains is that at least the Russians are willing to open the door to this. How about the US?


If the US is not willing to sell it, we can hardly be blamed for seeking the weapons we need for our strategic purposes elsewhere! If the US has no good SAMs, and wants to charge top dollar for the ones they do have, how can we be blamed for seeking the right weapons for our defense? Please dont think I agree with US coercion directed at India.

sudeepj wrote:5. International relations are always about the future.. And the futuristic weapons are almost all American. And this when the US has scaled down its military investments. If there were to be a new cold war, one can expect the expenses to rise up again. Then the US is an economy and a system that provides us with a huge market. If it were not for weapons, what would we sell/buy with the Russians? And in what quantities? How much Chai can we sell them?

You are making some very dangerous assumptions there my friend! :)

But the main point is this - How much of those futuristic weapons will India get her hands on? Do you have a quantifiable number or a percentage? You are assuming that India will just be given access to them? On what basis?

India asked for engine tech. India got shown the door. That was a given anyway. Why talk about futuristic weapons, when India cannot even get bread-and-butter components?


This is indeed the point of discussion. The US is a capitalistic system. They cant just order LM or GE to do a TOT of their engine tech! If they did (And we were able to absorb it sufficiently) though, we should ask the question.. what more is in this relationship for us? :-) My point is, there needs to be a recalibration of expectations on both sides. We dont send Indians to die in a colonial type war. They wont give us jet engines.

sudeepj wrote:6. One problem I see with the US system is that it almost requires the loss of 'subjectivity'. If you are a Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy.. you have to accept the US wasp-y type of system. India is a Dharmic country. Are we expected to submit to US ideas as well, if we were to be a part of that alliance system? France offers one potential model, but France is France. Will the US agree to letting us be a France? And how can the cultural aggression from American churches, silicon valley companies, publishing/opinion forming organizations go on like it has and the US/India alliance system even come into existence?

So India wanting to be like France (with its own MIC) is now a threat to the existence of the American MIC? Why do we need the US to agree if India wanted to be like France?

And you are *OKAY* with the cultural aggression from American churches, silicon valley companies, publishing/opinion forming organizations go on like it has?
Dude, what is wrong with you? I am not doing a personal attack on you. But I am surprised how you can make such a statement!


I believe I was pointing out a problem in the US conduct. I dont know how you took it to mean that I am OKAY with it? :shock:

As for the other stuff, India has made or is making significant inroads in acquiring them locally. Here are some examples...

* The Indian Army's AWAN (Army Wide Area Network)
* Secure Cloud Storage for the Indian Army --> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 643144.cms
* The Shakti Artillery Combat Command and Control System (ACCCS)
* India's Sterlite Tech is building the Indian Navy's new digital network
* AFNet is the Indian Air Force's new digital information & communication grid
* Bharat Electronics Ltd has an entire host of electronic/navigation systems (way too long to list). Just visit website ---> http://www.bel-india.in/Products.aspx?M ... =1&link=59
* Man Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MP-ATGM)
* DRDO's Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW)
* Stand-Off Anti-Tank Guided Missile (SANT)
* ADE's Sudarshan laser-guided bomb
* Prahaar tactical ballistic missile
* Helina anti-tank guided missile
* Shaurya hypersonic missile
* Pralay ballistic missile
* Nirbhay cruise missile
* NPOL's USHUS sonar
* Astra BVRAAM
* Etc, Etc, Etc

All systems that can help us win the war imposed on us by Pak or the economic/political coercion forced on us by the Chinese. Unless you have some evidence that proves otherwise. And you can add Arihant, Akash-1S and Agni to the above list.


If we can acquire local tactical stuff, which is harder to do than strategic stuff, I am all for it. So far, we have some promising programs, but unfortunately, not a very good track record. The tip-of-the-tip systems are all imported or license produced.

You are making assumptions again my friend :) You are assuming that since the goodness & fatness of the global industrial, technological and intellectual supply chain flows out of the US and that somehow and in some hallowed & divine manner, those blessed droppings are going to miraculously fall on India. The only thing India must do is align herself with the US. You need to drop that notion or provide some concrete evidence to prove your statement.


My point is that the US is the only 'system' that is mass producing weapons today. How can a Rafale with a paltry 300 unit production run compete with a JSF or the teen fighters cost wise? Going beyond cost, if there is serious attrition (like in a war) there wont be an armory to tap into to replace war wastage. I believe France ran out of steam in the Libyan campaign!! the Libyan campaign! A little North African country with hardly any professional forces, on the med. coast!

sudeepj wrote:I want to point out that most Russian systems are 'all or nothing' weapons, when in reality, our defense posture is not about all or nothing. We can float as many Cold Starts as we want, its not happening. Its telling, that in the Don Bass region, Russian invasion was mostly about compromising the population there and using militias.. Classic 4G stuff.

What we need is stuff that can fight Salami Slicing, stuff that gives us a decisive advantage in subliminal 4G warfare. Most such stuff is really really refined/high tech, and most Russian platforms are industrial, rather than high tech.

And American systems are not all or nothing? Can you even put a Russian missile on a US-origin fighter or put a US-origin missile on a Russian fighter? I am sure you know the answer to that. And I am not referring to the technical ability, but rather whether the US OEMs will allow such a move.

The IAF has done that though. The Mirage 2000 carries the R-73E close combat missile. French Aircraft, Russian Missile. The Su-30MKI is expected to carry the AIM-132 ASRAAM in the future. Russian Aircraft, Western Missile. Good luck doing that on an American platform i.e. F-16 or F-18. Honestly, Good Luck!


Even Russians are objecting to the ASRAAM integration, no? Every country will object with a fear of losing IP, or leaking to secret. Its not malicious! If we exported the LCA to Bangladesh and Bangladesh wanted to integrate 'PL10' on it, we would complain too! Further, what is the 'quality' of this integration? Are we sure the interface is debugged? I was reading a recent Kargil account, where the litening pods on Mirages kept crashing every so often.. If we dont 'know' the interface, how can we do a good job of integrating disparate technologies/weapons?

sudeepj wrote:Coming to the nature of high tech.. technology is incremental in nature. We get criticized for reinventing the wheel, but if no one is selling you a wheel, you do need to reinvent a wheel to get a chariot!

So then allows us to reinvent the wheel (Kaveri engine) to get the chariot (Tejas) going. Give us the tech! :lol:
[/quote]

No one is going to sell us a dollar for fifty cents. No one is going to sell us a dollar for a dollar, if they can sell that same dollar for two dollars to us tomorrow.. I hope you see my point. We should not expect such 'proofs' of friendship. :-)

Added later...

And American systems are not all or nothing?


The all or nothing here is referring to the nature of the conflict they are designed for. I strongly feel, Russian weapons are good for full spectrum conflict, if you dont care about collateral damage or loss of lives on your own side. American/Israeli weapons are more suited to surgical type operations. While an American/Israeli type strike will use an SDB or a spike type weapon, Russians will be quite happy to let lose a Katyusha type barrage.. or drop 28x250lb bombs from a Su35. :-)
Last edited by sudeepj on 02 Aug 2019 02:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 02 Aug 2019 02:19

Kashi wrote:
sudeepj wrote:If India had taken initiative to completely open the Chahbahar port and supply lines, proposed some kind of modus vivendi between Iranians and the Jews, perhaps the US would have had a different option. Perhaps all logistics could be transhipped from a Mumbai or Gujarat port through Chahbahar..

Are you even reading what you wrote? You are aware where Chabahar lies don't you? It lies in Iran, one of the places that your country labels as a part of "Axis of evil", has imposed sanctions against and also threatened with military action.


My country is India. Dont make assumptions and control your pointless aggression.

There was a window of opportunity in the Obama years to do exactly what I said. One of the criticisms of Obama was that he was too soft on Iran! We missed that window of opportunity to fully develop the Chahbahar line. On the other hand, Iranis themselves could have been playing hardball.. so may be, its not our fault.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Aug 2019 02:29

kit wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:While there's big talk of superiority of usa platforms and technology. Truth is its dangerous how US managed to suppress the news of Boeing sending junked faulty broken down equipment as C-17 offsets transonic wind tunnel facility. Media politicians all are afraid to protest and expose American cheats. This is the iron grip usa has.

This is how usa turns a nation into Indirect-Colony

please elaborate., anything reported ? its not working i presume ?


3 POINTS

1. Circa 2012 - 13 CAG criticized C17 offsets IN FORM OF TRANSONIC TUNNEL TEST SITE by Boeing. CAG said it was not according to the rules of offsets stipulated in 2005. (But you can find this news on internet)

2. 2015 another news appeared that the plant that Boeing shipped was actually a 1950s dismantled plant the fans coming apart totally rusted it was condemned for last 35 years.

3. Point 1 you will find on net. But news number 2 has been wiped off. Not only our media and political leaders gone silent but bureaucrats that fought vehemently during nuke deal for nation's interests are gone silent. THIS IS FEARSOME CAPABILITY OF MASSA, RUSSIANS OR OTHERS NEVER HAD IT. I THINK INSTITUTIONs are now in khan's control.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 02 Aug 2019 04:02

sudeepj wrote:Please don't take my relative criticism of Indian babus to mean that the conduct has been good. It has been short sighted, downright vicious in cultivating ******** like Khalilzad and there can be many many criticisms. However, the only behavior we can really control is our own. Given that the nature of the Amir Khan is not going to change, could we have acted differently to reach different outcomes? That is the question I am trying to pose.

One can take the position that this question does not need posing and we will force the Khan to deal with us on our own terms. Or at least play hard ball to make them listen to some of our concerns. These are valid positions to hold and I have no quarrel with them if they are stated as such.

See the problem is, they do not care for anyone else's concerns other than their own. So then we should adopt the same attitude. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

To act differently to reach a different outcome is translated as ----> ACT DIFFERENTLY (Act like a MUTU and...) to REACH A DIFFERENT OUTCOME (....conform to their world view). I am gonna pass on that.

Thus it is best we control our own behaviour (continue acting as we are doing now) and not conform to their world view. Problem Solved, no?

sudeepj wrote:No, all of these are down right idiotic. Particularly the CAATSA threat while an election was going on! When the time comes, the US diplomats will have to work harder to REwin Indian trust.

The problem is that they do not want to win Indian trust, but rather treat India like any of their other allies. Basically a master-serf type relationship. And neither should India be desperate for them to REwin Indian trust. What is the point of that actually?

I mean aligning with the US resolves India's problems how exactly? Rather, it will only further complicate matters. There is nothing wrong with India, that cannot be solved that which is right with India. Bill Clinton mentioned that in his 1993 Inagural Address as US President. Just that he mentioned America, instead of India.

sudeepj wrote:I don't think a large country like India, potentially a G2 member in the next century can be joined at the hip with any country. Yet, if there is advantage is temporarily bandwagoning with another powerful group, there is no harm in doing so. The G2/G3/G5 dreams are yet dreams and in the future. Lets figure out a way to get to that future in the fastest and the least painful way possible.

With the US, there is no temporarily bandwagoning. Like marriage, it is for life! Break that marriage and the consequences are severe. It is best that we continue to date onlee, with zero commitment. Sample the milk, but do not buy the cow.

sudeepj wrote:It is my considered opinion that Arihant had 0 impact on the Pulwama proceedings. An SSN could potentially have had a greater impact than Arihant.. but its not clear what the terms of Chakra lease are. In Chakra 1, we had russi officers posted on board, and it wasnt clear if we would be allowed to use it in a shooting war.

If a future Pulwama conflict escalates beyond a certain region and ropes China into the mix or Pakistan gets rabid, Arihant should give them a moment of pause. That is the whole point of an assured second strike capability. I am thankful to the Russians for that.

I was not aware of any such officers on Chakra-I. However with Chakra-II, such a scenario does not exist. I will leave it at that.

sudeepj wrote:If the US is not willing to sell it, we can hardly be blamed for seeking the weapons we need for our strategic purposes elsewhere! If the US has no good SAMs, and wants to charge top dollar for the ones they do have, how can we be blamed for seeking the right weapons for our defense? Please don't think I agree with US coercion directed at India.

No worries. I know you do not. All Izz Well :)

sudeepj wrote:This is indeed the point of discussion. The US is a capitalistic system. They cant just order LM or GE to do a TOT of their engine tech! If they did (And we were able to absorb it sufficiently) though, we should ask the question.. what more is in this relationship for us? :-) My point is, there needs to be a re-calibration of expectations on both sides. We don't send Indians to die in a colonial type war. They wont give us jet engines.

And it is precisely for that reason that it is best that the relationship stays at a transactional one. Sell and Buy. That is good enough. I am fully aware that the US (or neither will France, UK or Russia) provide their crown jewels on engine tech. It is just that I find it funny when the BRF spin masters claim that the US has agreed to transfer everything that India has requested on engine tech.

sudeepj wrote:I believe I was pointing out a problem in the US conduct. I dont know how you took it to mean that I am OKAY with it? :shock:

And yet you believe that there is advantage in temporarily bandwagoning to this gandu-giri? Seriously Dude? :)

sudeepj wrote:If we can acquire local tactical stuff, which is harder to do than strategic stuff, I am all for it. So far, we have some promising programs, but unfortunately, not a very good track record. The tip-of-the-tip systems are all imported or license produced.

Well they said the same about BEL in the 60s and 70s. Development takes time. There is a lot of local tactical stuff - some of which I listed - that is entering service. And the reviews to date have been encouraging. Yes, there have been failures and mis-steps along the way, but that is true with any system under development. The more faith that develops with the user, the greater incentive exists for the manufacturer to improve on the product and produce the next variant.

Tip of the Spear systems are still a long hurdle for India to overcome. And till then, it is prudent for India to not waste its money on unreliable partners (politically) like the US. What one US Administration promises, is not followed through by the next Administration. Even in the same administration, in a mid-term election (if the opposing party wins)...then all bets are off.

sudeepj wrote:My point is that the US is the only 'system' that is mass producing weapons today. How can a Rafale with a paltry 300 unit production run compete with a JSF or the teen fighters cost wise? Going beyond cost, if there is serious attrition (like in a war) there wont be an armory to tap into to replace war wastage. I believe France ran out of steam in the Libyan campaign!! the Libyan campaign! A little North African country with hardly any professional forces, on the med. coast!

And I am asking you again - how many of those mass produced weapon systems will India be getting her hands on? Do you have a quantifiable number? My good man, provide me a link or a source! :)

Look at the math Sudeep. Take a look at the Bahrain F-16V deal for example. $3.535 billion for 16 F-16Vs. That works out to ~ $221 million per plane. To be fair, that includes everything - spares, tools, weapons, simulators, training, etc, etc, etc.

See here --->
Government of Bahrain – F-16V Aircraft with Support - $2.785 Billion
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/g ... ft-support

Bahrain – Weapons to Support F-16 Block 70/F-16V Aircraft Fleet - $0.75 Billion
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/b ... raft-fleet

Now take a look at the Rafale deal for the Indian Air Force. $8.7 billion for 36 Rafales with a whole series of customizations for the Indian Air Force, something that Bahraini Air Force does not have. That works out to $244 million per plane. And again to be fair, that includes everything - spares, tools, weapons, simulators, training, etc, etc, etc. And a repeat order of 36 - 50 Rafales is going to be even cheaper than the first batch. It is better to avoid the whining and nagging from the US political establishment for the next 3+ decades if the F-16 and F-18 platforms ever join the IAF. Yuck!

Future conflicts will be short and swift. There will be no time to think about war wastage reserves for tip of the spear platforms. Once the war is over, then we can think about war wastage reserves. And India will be paying for war wastage reserves. India is not getting them for for free. So that is a moot point.

sudeepj wrote:Even Russians are objecting to the ASRAAM integration, no? Every country will object with a fear of losing IP, or leaking to secret. Its not malicious! If we exported the LCA to Bangladesh and Bangladesh wanted to integrate 'PL10' on it, we would complain too! Further, what is the 'quality' of this integration? Are we sure the interface is debugged? I was reading a recent Kargil account, where the litening pods on Mirages kept crashing every so often.. If we dont 'know' the interface, how can we do a good job of integrating disparate technologies/weapons?

With the Russians, objecting is as far as it will go. They will not upset the apple cart (~ 300 Su-30MKIs), because the market is huge.

And yet those some Litening pods successfully attacked Tiger Hill. The mission objective was met. To hear Air Marshal R Nambiar talk about that episode is better than some DDM account of Litening pods on Mirage 2000s that kept crashing. Here is the link...

How I Bombed Tiger Hill From A Mirage 2000
https://www.ndtv.com/blog/how-i-bombed- ... 00-2075280

All weapon sub-systems (Kargil was the exception, due to the urgency) are dutifully checked by ASTE (Aircraft Systems & Testing Est) before being cleared for active duty in a regular squadron. The R-73 example I mentioned. Cleared by ASTE! :)

sudeepj wrote:No one is going to sell us a dollar for fifty cents. No one is going to sell us a dollar for a dollar, if they can sell that same dollar for two dollars to us tomorrow.. I hope you see my point. We should not expect such 'proofs' of friendship. :-)

Thank you for that lesson :)

Let it remain at a transactional relationship then. What is the point of doing cosmetic surgery (i.e. temporarily bandwagoning), if the implant is going to rupture at some point in the future? :)

Added later...

sudeepj wrote:The all or nothing here is referring to the nature of the conflict they are designed for. I strongly feel, Russian weapons are good for full spectrum conflict, if you dont care about collateral damage or loss of lives on your own side. American/Israeli weapons are more suited to surgical type operations. While an American/Israeli type strike will use an SDB or a spike type weapon, Russians will be quite happy to let lose a Katyusha type barrage.. or drop 28x250lb bombs from a Su35. :-)

And the IAF was content with dropping Israeli SPICE bombs during Balakot and ordered even more of them, post Balakot.

SDB or Katyusha....what does it matter....if the end result is achieved?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 02 Aug 2019 04:27

The Bahrain example highlights one major flaw in comparing FMS notification amounts to actual signed and negotiated contracts. They are not one and the same. FMS notifications are highly inflated $ amounts in some cases, particularly when lots of contractor support, MILCON, and non US standard (acquisition and logistics) are involved. DSCA is asked to provide an estimate for Congress and clubs and piles on all sort of capability, support, contractor work etc that requires notification but may or may not be A) part of the final demand from the host nation, and B ) may or may not be in the final negotiated and signed contract It is a well known fact that DSCA includes everything including the kitchen sink and is highly conservative when it comes to service cost estimates on things that GOTUS does not buy and does in house instead...

I can point to several examples where this did not or will not pan out, including the famous Singaporean AESA radar acquisition program where DSCA got the unit cost wrong by nearly 50% (variance per unit between FMS announcement and actual signed contract).

On the F-16 V to Rafale you are likely looking at around a 15-20 MM cost advantage on per unit cost basis for the aircraft and components ..probably slightly less given new line learning curve at final assembly for Lockheed compared to the legacy line . F-35A probably enjoys just as much over the Rafale at full rate production ..
Last edited by brar_w on 02 Aug 2019 04:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 02 Aug 2019 04:30

Rakesh wrote:The problem is that they do not want to win Indian trust, but rather treat India like any of their other allies. Basically a master-serf type relationship. And neither should India be desperate for them to REwin Indian trust. What is the point of that actually?


Then the relationship will be stillborn. They won the right to make Germany/UK/Japan lose subjectivity in war. India has not lost a war with the US, so why should we give up our interests?

I mean aligning with the US resolves India's problems how exactly?


Having the hyperpower US aligned with you, solves many problems. One of finding new markets for us. One of finding excess capital (from middle east/Japan) for investment. WB development programs. Political support in the UN. Its a full spectrum relationship, not one or two dimensional. IMHO, if our potential enemy number 1 is Cheen, with the super long unsettled border, with its unholy relationship with PakMil, with its huge naval expansion.. One natural alliance is with the US. Rus does not really matter and may prove to be politically unreliable because of Crimean stuff.. it needs Cheen way more than we need anyone. S300s, S400s, Uran missiles, Sovremenny destroyers, Su clones - the number of Russian platforms deployed by Cheen is fairly large. Doesnt this compromise our defense? One SSN or one SSBN, while bahut naam ki.. is not really kaam ki in salami slicing wars that appear to be Cheeni modus operandi.

There is nothing wrong with India, that cannot be solved that which is right with India.


There is nothing wrong with India, but there used to be plenty wrong with Indian policies. Our foreign policy, while it has regained some vitality, is still not as nimble, aggressive and proactive as it could be in protecting our interests.

Lets see how things roll out. There is some high level engagement going on right now.

SDB or Katyusha....what does it matter....if the end result is achieved?


India does not have the political system to fight a Katyusha war. For better or for worse, our policies are more geared towards fighting SDB wala wars.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby kit » 02 Aug 2019 05:43

Manish_Sharma wrote:
kit wrote:please elaborate., anything reported ? its not working i presume ?


3 POINTS

1. Circa 2012 - 13 CAG criticized C17 offsets IN FORM OF TRANSONIC TUNNEL TEST SITE by Boeing. CAG said it was not according to the rules of offsets stipulated in 2005. (But you can find this news on internet)

2. 2015 another news appeared that the plant that Boeing shipped was actually a 1950s dismantled plant the fans coming apart totally rusted it was condemned for last 35 years.

3. Point 1 you will find on net. But news number 2 has been wiped off. Not only our media and political leaders gone silent but bureaucrats that fought vehemently during nuke deal for nation's interests are gone silent. THIS IS FEARSOME CAPABILITY OF MASSA, RUSSIANS OR OTHERS NEVER HAD IT. I THINK INSTITUTIONs are now in khan's control.



India already operates the worlds third largest hypersonic wind tunnel facility , dont know how significant the defunct boeing tunnel is useful in any way !! .. but its definitely a issue of probity , not loss of capability

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 02 Aug 2019 06:40

sudeepj wrote:My country is India. Dont make assumptions and control your pointless aggression.


Apologies. From your posts you came across as pushing the American viewpoint, so I assumed that you were an American citizen.

sudeepj wrote:On the other hand, Iranis themselves could have been playing hardball.. so may be, its not our fault.


That's the point I was making. As much as we want, our operations in Chabahar are not really autonomous. It is eventually Iran who will determine what goods and material they allow to transit through Chabahar and through the Zahedan railway to Afghanistan or through their territory to Central Asia and onwards.

During the construction of Salma dam in Herat province of Afghanistan (a region bordering Iran), we had a really really tough time persuading Iran to let us trans-ship dynamite and other explosives for construction activities- this when Iran fully knew what they were going to be used for and were/are on "friendly" terms with us. Do you really believe that a country that is facing insurgency in one of its provinces bordering both Afghanistan and Pakistan would actually be up for allowing huge quantities of arms and ammunition to shipped to a neighbouring country via the same insurgency-infested region? Add to this the fact that those weapons would be meant for US/NATO forces and their hostilities with Iran are well known.

So as you finally acknowledged, it is not our fault at all.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 02 Aug 2019 10:04

sudeepj wrote:Then the relationship will be stillborn. They won the right to make Germany/UK/Japan lose subjectivity in war. India has not lost a war with the US, so why should we give up our interests?

I am happy the way the relationship is right now. They Sell, We Buy. Nothing More, Nothing Less. I like how the French view their relationship with the United States.

Wary of Trump’s Hard Line on Iran, Europeans Decline to Join Escorts in Gulf
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/worl ... atrol.html

A senior French official was blunt: “We have intense military cooperation with the Americans. But on Iran, we won’t follow automatically.”

Intense but not poodle-like. Something to emulate. Oh wait, we already did that! :mrgreen:

Indian Navy chief says no need to give military angle to ‘the Quad’
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... XB9tN.html

“What do you think a military dimension will achieve? India is the only country in the Quad with a land border with China. In case of conflict…nobody will come and hold your hand,” Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said, playing down the larger role the alliance was supposed to play in due course.


sudeepj wrote:One of finding new markets for us. One of finding excess capital (from middle east/Japan) for investment. WB development programs. Political support in the UN.

Market for what? Defence Products? What defence products exactly? F-16 and F-18? We went through that entire sordid episode during the Single Engine Fighter contest! What other products?

Please provide examples by how "temporarily bandwagoning" to the US will solve the problem for helping us find excess capital from the Middle East/Japan that is not currently happening. By WB, I am assuming you are referring to the World Bank and they have a robust program in India now ---> https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/india

sudeepj wrote:Its a full spectrum relationship, not one or two dimensional. IMHO, if our potential enemy number 1 is Cheen, with the super long unsettled border, with its unholy relationship with PakMil, with its huge naval expansion.. One natural alliance is with the US. Rus does not really matter and may prove to be politically unreliable because of Crimean stuff.. it needs Cheen way more than we need anyone. S300s, S400s, Uran missiles, Sovremenny destroyers, Su clones - the number of Russian platforms deployed by Cheen is fairly large. Doesnt this compromise our defense? One SSN or one SSBN, while bahut naam ki.. is not really kaam ki in salami slicing wars that appear to be Cheeni modus operandi.

A natural alliance to do what? Fight against the Chinese in some joint, imaginary war? The Admiral brushed your theory aside with his statement above.

Please advise how our defence will be compromised against the Chinese, if we operate the same platforms? You do realize that is a two way street? If our platforms are compromised, then so will be theirs no? And if you are referring to the clones, that is a whole other ballgame. The less said about their Russian clones the better.

How effective have their salami slicing been to date? You know of the term salami slicing because of General Bipin Rawat who mentioned it. How much territory have they successfully taken over with salami slicing? Do you have any concrete info? How many sq km of territory did the Chinese acquire from throwing stones in Doklam?

One would assume, that with the Chinese (with all their hubris and military might)...should have just come out on top in the Doklam episode. We should have dhoti shivered at the very thought of the Chinese attacking us.

sudeepj wrote:There is nothing wrong with India, but there used to be plenty wrong with Indian policies. Our foreign policy, while it has regained some vitality, is still not as nimble, aggressive and proactive as it could be in protecting our interests.

Lets see how things roll out. There is some high level engagement going on right now.

Well policies change. Though out the course of a nation's history, there are a host of policies that have been bad. In the case of America's 243 years of existence, there are a number of policies that have been questionable. But that is what nations do. Nothing is perfect. We are not perfect.

But aligning with an American worldview will only further cloud India's judgement. And instead of being nimble, aggressive and proactive...it will likely end up as being lumbering, passive and reactive. Kinda like the UK and many poodles like her :)

sudeepj wrote:India does not have the political system to fight a Katyusha war. For better or for worse, our policies are more geared towards fighting SDB wala wars.

Then we will buy SDB munitions to fight SDB wala wars. We are doing it right now. What is the takleef really?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 02 Aug 2019 10:07

brar_w wrote:On the F-16 V to Rafale you are likely looking at around a 15-20 MM cost advantage on per unit cost basis for the aircraft and components ..probably slightly less given new line learning curve at final assembly for Lockheed compared to the legacy line . F-35A probably enjoys just as much over the Rafale at full rate production ..

Thank you Saar for the providing that estimate. Just so that I understood this correctly, you are referring to the F-16V being $15 - $20 million cheaper than the Rafale right?

You will know the budget figures much better than I do, but is not the eventual unit cost for the F-35A to be at around $80 million? I thought I saw that on the LM website on the F-35 program.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 02 Aug 2019 10:17

Rakesh wrote:
brar_w wrote:On the F-16 V to Rafale you are likely looking at around a 15-20 MM cost advantage on per unit cost basis for the aircraft and components ..probably slightly less given new line learning curve at final assembly for Lockheed compared to the legacy line . F-35A probably enjoys just as much over the Rafale at full rate production ..

Thank you Saar for the providing that estimate. Just so that I understood this correctly, you are referring to the F-16V being $15 - $20 million cheaper than the Rafale right?

You will know the budget figures much better than I do, but is not the eventual unit cost for the F-35A to be at around $80 million? I thought I saw that on the LM website on the F-35 program.


Yes that's the case. The latest award from earlier this week has the LM cost at roughly $57 Million per unit from the new F-16V production line in South Carolina. Add about $10 Million for propulsion, LDP's etc (those come standard with F-16V IIRC) and you get around $67 Million at the top end (likely lower). That's at a new assembly line that has just started and that will have its learning curve but will most certainly operate at sub-optimal rate. As I understand it the current URF of the F-18 E/F Block II should be around $70 Million with about a $3 Million cost of block III enhancements. F-35A award in FY19-20 gets its URF to UNDER $80 Million a unit but that is for future deliveries (2 years from now). Current deliveries (those happening right now) are running about $89.3 or so million IIRC. FRP F-35A block 3F will probably be close to $77-78 Million. Price will creep up by a couple of million with block-4 changes when that enters production so around $80 Million on average is a good ballpark.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 02 Aug 2019 21:55

Arya Rakesh, I think the discussion has run its course. Ill end this with just a couple of observations.

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:One of finding new markets for us. One of finding excess capital (from middle east/Japan) for investment. WB development programs. Political support in the UN.

Market for what? Defence Products? What defence products exactly? F-16 and F-18? We went through that entire sordid episode during the Single Engine Fighter contest! What other products?


Please look at India's trade figures. There is this thing called google.. Our no 1 trade partner is Cheen, no 2 is the US. But the trade with the US is a lot more balanced and we run a surplus. With Cheen, we run a huge deficit and Cheen basically uses us as a dumping ground for excess capacity, while we export basic materials to them. With the US, we export software, services, high tech goods (e.g. aircraft parts!), pharmaceuticals, clothes, consumer items.. there is a long list. The US also allows significant movement of people with Indians being the largest fraction of skilled immigrants. Today, as a new cold war is evolving, trade policy is security policy and export led growth can be a significant part of the Indian story. (Though likely not the full story).

Please provide examples by how "temporarily bandwagoning" to the US will solve the problem for helping us find excess capital from the Middle East/Japan that is not currently happening. By WB, I am assuming you are referring to the World Bank and they have a robust program in India now ---> https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/india


Excess capital from ME SWF has recently started to find its way to India. Most of these countries are under the thumb of the US. If we have an antagonistic relationship, I am not sure that either ME or Japanese money will find its way to India. Of course, as you may be aware, WB/IMF are dominated by western votes and are really western owned institutions.

Please advise how our defence will be compromised against the Chinese, if we operate the same platforms? You do realize that is a two way street? If our platforms are compromised, then so will be theirs no?


To ask this question is so absurd that I cant believe it has been posed in good faith. At least you agree with me that if we operate the same system, it would be compromised. I find it cold comfort that 'we will have compromised Chinese systems' as well. Please look at the scientific and technical capabilities of the two countries and be real.

How effective have their salami slicing been to date? You know of the term salami slicing because of General Bipin Rawat who mentioned it. How much territory have they successfully taken over with salami slicing? Do you have any concrete info? How many sq km of territory did the Chinese acquire from throwing stones in Doklam?

What was the Aksai Chin land grab but Salami slicing? I learnt to read some time in 1980. Your laughable jibe that 'I learnt of Salami slicing from some recent Gen Bipin Rawat speech' is.. well, laughable. Chinese salami slicing has been active in SCS with opposing countries being pushed out farther and farther. That this is a traditional Chinese strategy is neither a new observation nor particularly incisive. Its plain as day. If this strategy is deployed in Arunachal, what would be our response? Would we wave the Arihant? At Doklam, which was a very specific geo-political situation, we established **local dominance** and met them toe-to-toe. The Chinese did not react with the full force that they were capable of. If they had applied a fuller spectrum of their capabilities at that point, we would have been hard pressed. Lets leave it at that.

One would assume, that with the Chinese (with all their hubris and military might)...should have just come out on top in the Doklam episode. We should have dhoti shivered at the very thought of the Chinese attacking us.

I am quite capable of picking my own words. Arya Rakesh, please dont stuff your words in my mouth. Namaskaram for now.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 03 Aug 2019 09:27

sudeepj wrote:Arya Rakesh, I think the discussion has run its course. Ill end this with just a couple of observations.

I am disappointed that you are not finding this instructive. I will very much miss our discussions.

sudeepj wrote:Please look at India's trade figures. There is this thing called google.. Our no 1 trade partner is Cheen, no 2 is the US. But the trade with the US is a lot more balanced and we run a surplus. With Cheen, we run a huge deficit and Cheen basically uses us as a dumping ground for excess capacity, while we export basic materials to them. With the US, we export software, services, high tech goods (e.g. aircraft parts!), pharmaceuticals, clothes, consumer items.. there is a long list. The US also allows significant movement of people with Indians being the largest fraction of skilled immigrants. Today, as a new cold war is evolving, trade policy is security policy and export led growth can be a significant part of the Indian story. (Though likely not the full story).

Interesting you mentioned Google! Because I asked Google Chacha the following ---> India's Top Trading Partners and this is what came up. As of July 2019, the United States is India's largest trade partner.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/indias- ... -partners/

UAE is No 2! and China is No 3! Trying to sneak that one past me, I see! :P

But you are correct on the fact that with the US we run a surplus and with China we run a huge deficit.

And I am very pleased to read (from you!) that export led growth could be a significant part of the Indian story. I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping that instead of importing F-18 and F-21 to India, we can export Tejas to the US! That would be a coup! Perhaps export LCH, instead of importing AH-64 Apache! Please do not hyperventilate....that was a joke :)

sudeepj wrote:Excess capital from ME SWF has recently started to find its way to India. Most of these countries are under the thumb of the US.

It just makes good business sense to invest in India. And it is has nothing to do with being under the thumb of the US. Unless you can provide some evidence to the contrary.

Capital from the ME that once flowed (but now trickles) to the Terrorist State of Pakistan, now flows to India because even the guys in the ME know that Pakistan is a basket case and India is a much better investment in the long run. With Pakistan the investment ends when they blow themselves up or some infrastructure up. Not a wise way to invest at all! Being part of the Ummah can carry you only so far. At the end of the day, money triumphs!

I am intrigued by the comment - under the thumb of the US. Would that also be known by its more diplomatically accepted term --> temporarily bandwagoning?

sudeepj wrote:If we have an antagonistic relationship, I am not sure that either ME or Japanese money will find its way to India. Of course, as you may be aware, WB/IMF are dominated by western votes and are really western owned institutions.

I do not believe that India and the US have an antagonistic relationship at all. However, as "true" partners (if such a concept even exists with the US!)....India must not follow everything the US asks us to or vice versa! What is the point of being independent then? Does India really need to be afraid to antagonize Uncle Sam? And if we must, is then this a partnership at all?

I like how the French have their relationship. Intense, but not a Puppet. One of the key factors in that is having their own MIC and not adopting the poodle model like the UK. They know when to "diplomatically" flip the bird to Uncle Sam (as they just did in the case of Iran) and do it very nicely.

sudeepj wrote:To ask this question is so absurd that I cant believe it has been posed in good faith. At least you agree with me that if we operate the same system, it would be compromised. I find it cold comfort that 'we will have compromised Chinese systems' as well. Please look at the scientific and technical capabilities of the two countries and be real.

You were the one who brought this up. So I posed a question. Perhaps it was too general in nature. So let me try and make it specific. They operate the S-400 and we operate the S-400. So they know the limits of the S-400 system and so do we. Is that not a legitimate question asked in good faith?

Unless you believe their S-400 system is more enhanced than our S-400 system. Then that would be a concern.

Interesting you mentioned about the scientific and technical capabilities of China vis-à-vis India. On paper, it looks menacing indeed. And yet - despite their advancements in scientific and technical abilities & capabilities - their 5th generation fighter (the J-20) can be detected from several kilometers away. A statement made by none other than the Air Chief himself. A Su-30MKI tracked their latest & greatest technological achievement, when it was flying in Tibetan airspace. A Su-30MKI, using a N011M passive electronically scanned array radar, was able to detect and track the J-20.

Now before one counters back with the asinine statement that perhaps the J-20 wanted to be detected, the J-20 is a fifth generation, stealth fighter. The Su-30MKI is a fourth generation, non-stealth aircraft. One would have thought - that with the scientific and technical capabilities of China - this should have been a non-issue for the J-20. How could such a thing even happen?

There is a fine line between underestimating a threat versus overestimating a threat. Neither one is good in the long run, because it involves a lot of energy, time and money invested in programs which will never truly achieve full potential. There is no ego or self-respect lost in admitting that China is eons ahead of India in many areas.

However, it would be foolhardy to assume that because the Chinese are eons ahead we need to get our undies in a twist and run to the US, join forces with them and then defeat the Dragon. That is a bedtime story that some of this forum use to put themselves to sleep to at night. However, like most on this forum, I pass on that foolishness.

sudeepj wrote:What was the Aksai Chin land grab but Salami slicing? I learnt to read some time in 1980. Your laughable jibe that 'I learnt of Salami slicing from some recent Gen Bipin Rawat speech' is.. well, laughable. Chinese salami slicing has been active in SCS with opposing countries being pushed out farther and farther. That this is a traditional Chinese strategy is neither a new observation nor particularly incisive. Its plain as day. If this strategy is deployed in Arunachal, what would be our response? Would we wave the Arihant?

My brother, you are like a gift that keeps on giving :lol: I am TRULY going to miss talking with you. Please reconsider ok?

So you believe Aksai Chin land grab was salami slicing? Okay, here are some facts for you. I know you can read, because you have been doing it since some time in 1980 and I would assume, that you would have perfected it by now. I would be disappointed that after nearly four decades of reading (I am proud of you by the way!) if you are unable to comprehend the below...

* Total Sq Km of Aksai Chin ---> 37,244 square kilometres (14,380 sq miles)
* Total Sq Km of Doklam ---> 89 square kilometres (34 sq miles)

There is a difference of 37,155 square kilometres (14,346 sq miles) between Aksai Chin and Doklam. That 37,244 square kilometers was captured by the Chinese - in one fell sweep - in the 1962 Indo-China War. That was a decapitation by the Chinese and not salami slicing. A humiliating defeat for India.

And like I mentioned earlier, that was in 1962. Now fast forward 55 years to 2017, when Doklam happened. By your own admission, when you advised me to be real :), the scientific and technical capabilities of China are ahead of India. One would assume, that when the Chinese who had & used superior weapons against India in the 1962 Indo-China War and won, the Chinese in 2017 resorted to throwing stones against Indian Army soldiers in Doklam.

I don't design weapons for a living, but that looks awfully like a regression rather than a progression in China's scientific and technical military capabilities. Unless that is some new gorilla (not guerrilla!) warfare that they were trying out against the Indian Army. I did not think of that scenario actually. What a revelation indeed!

One would also assume that the Chinese would at the least match (if not exceed) the 37,244 square kilometers that they captured at Aksai Chin back in 1962. 55 years is an awfully long time for scientific and technical capabilities to mature. Why deal with a paltry 89 sq km of Doklam, when it would have been a simple cake walk for the Chinese to strangle the Siliguri Corridor and take over Northeast India? What happened to the Chinese?

sudeepj wrote:At Doklam, which was a very specific geo-political situation, we established **local dominance** and met them toe-to-toe. The Chinese did not react with the full force that they were capable of. If they had applied a fuller spectrum of their capabilities at that point, we would have been hard pressed. Lets leave it at that.

I expected better from you Sir. That train (the China threat) is never late! When all else fails, pull that card out of the deck! Please leave the scare tactics at the door. The Chinese did not scare the Indian Army at Doklam. If Doklam proved anything, it is that the Chinese are more talk, than action. There was nothing to stop them from applying their full spectrum of capabilities in 2017, just as their is nothing to stop them now in 2019. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

sudeepj wrote:I am quite capable of picking my own words. Arya Rakesh, please don't stuff your words in my mouth. Namaskaram for now.

On the contrary, I am asking you to prove your own statements Sir. Please read below...

sudeepj wrote:I don't think a large country like India, potentially a G2 member in the next century can be joined at the hip with any country. Yet, if there is advantage is temporarily bandwagoning with another powerful group, there is no harm in doing so. The G2/G3/G5 dreams are yet dreams and in the future. Lets figure out a way to get to that future in the fastest and the least painful way possible.

The above is your OWN words. The three below are also your OWN words.

sudeepj wrote:One problem I see with the US system is that it almost requires the loss of 'subjectivity'. If you are a Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy.. you have to accept the US wasp-y type of system. India is a Dharmic country. Are we expected to submit to US ideas as well, if we were to be a part of that alliance system? France offers one potential model, but France is France. Will the US agree to letting us be a France? And how can the cultural aggression from American churches, silicon valley companies, publishing/opinion forming organizations go on like it has and the US/India alliance system even come into existence?

sudeepj wrote:No, all of these are down right idiotic. Particularly the CAATSA threat while an election was going on! When the time comes, the US diplomats will have to work harder to REwin Indian trust.

sudeepj wrote:Most of these countries are under the thumb of the US.

How do you expect India to honestly live with a deep disconnect such as this? Just because of a China threat? India could potentially lose her subjectivity, end up as a WASP, live under an idiotic CAATSA threat, possibly end up being under the thumb of the US, etc, etc, etc? Does India really need a two-faced Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde nation as a partner? Or would it not make better sense to buy what is required (even from the US), but not get into any unholy alliances? That is the better path forward for India.

sudeepj wrote:7. If you had to pick an ally, whom would you pick?

I end this long post with another set of your OWN words. We all know the answer to that question. India's ally is India onlee. Only India can solve her own problems. India does not have to go at it alone, but India does not need to lose her identity or her independence in order to be strong. Namaskaram Sir!

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 03 Aug 2019 09:51

brar_w wrote:Yes that's the case. The latest award from earlier this week has the LM cost at roughly $57 Million per unit from the new F-16V production line in South Carolina. Add about $10 Million for propulsion, LDP's etc (those come standard with F-16V IIRC) and you get around $67 Million at the top end (likely lower). That's at a new assembly line that has just started and that will have its learning curve but will most certainly operate at sub-optimal rate. As I understand it the current URF of the F-18 E/F Block II should be around $70 Million with about a $3 Million cost of block III enhancements. F-35A award in FY19-20 gets its URF to UNDER $80 Million a unit but that is for future deliveries (2 years from now). Current deliveries (those happening right now) are running about $89.3 or so million IIRC. FRP F-35A block 3F will probably be close to $77-78 Million. Price will creep up by a couple of million with block-4 changes when that enters production so around $80 Million on average is a good ballpark.

Thank you brar. As always, filled with facts and figures. Greatly appreciated.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Aug 2019 22:21

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Arya Rakesh, I think the discussion has run its course. Ill end this with just a couple of observations.

I am disappointed that you are not finding this instructive. I will very much miss our discussions.

sudeepj wrote:Please look at India's trade figures. There is this thing called google.. Our no 1 trade partner is Cheen, no 2 is the US. But the trade with the US is a lot more balanced and we run a surplus. With Cheen, we run a huge deficit and Cheen basically uses us as a dumping ground for excess capacity, while we export basic materials to them. With the US, we export software, services, high tech goods (e.g. aircraft parts!), pharmaceuticals, clothes, consumer items.. there is a long list. The US also allows significant movement of people with Indians being the largest fraction of skilled immigrants. Today, as a new cold war is evolving, trade policy is security policy and export led growth can be a significant part of the Indian story. (Though likely not the full story).

Interesting you mentioned Google! Because I asked Google Chacha the following ---> India's Top Trading Partners and this is what came up. As of July 2019, the United States is India's largest trade partner.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/indias- ... -partners/

UAE is No 2! and China is No 3! Trying to sneak that one past me, I see! :P

But you are correct on the fact that with the US we run a surplus and with China we run a huge deficit.


No Rakesh.. China is the #1 trading partner.. the list you quickly googled up is the list of Indian export markets, not the trading partners.

They operate the S-400 and we operate the S-400. So they know the limits of the S-400 system and so do we. Is that not a legitimate question asked in good faith?


They know the frequencies the system operates with.. They know the EM signature.. They know the algorithms.. They know the kinematic profile of the missile. As they are the historically aggressive and irredentist country in the relationship, it concerns me that they have a deep understanding of the system. If anyone denies this, prima facie, this is proof of a bad faith argument on their part.

However, it would be foolhardy to assume that because the Chinese are eons ahead we need to get our undies in a twist and run to the US, join forces with them and then defeat the Dragon. That is a bedtime story that some of this forum use to put themselves to sleep to at night. However, like most on this forum, I pass on that foolishness.


Really Rakesh? :rotfl: You should dig deeper into your bag of insults and try harder. These playground level insults are.. well.. playground level insults. :-) Bye for now.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 06 Aug 2019 08:41

And he is back again! :lol: Thank you for coming back!

sudeepj wrote:They know the frequencies the system operates with.. They know the EM signature.. They know the algorithms.. They know the kinematic profile of the missile. As they are the historically aggressive and irredentist country in the relationship, it concerns me that they have a deep understanding of the system. If anyone denies this, prima facie, this is proof of a bad faith argument on their part.

Would we not have a deep understanding of the system as well? We would also know the EM signature, the algorithms, the kinematic profile of the missile, etc. Now if our system can be compromised, how valuable then is their own system?

I would assume they would use that system - among others - to prevent our fighter aircraft from achieving their objective in a future conflict. Unless they bought it to shoot rose petals into the air!

sudeepj wrote:Really Rakesh? :rotfl: You should dig deeper into your bag of insults and try harder. These playground level insults are.. well.. playground level insults. :-) Bye for now.

I do not need to try any harder. You are doing it to yourself. I asked you to defend your own statements, in my previous post, which you have shown that you are obviously incapable of doing.

Your fantasy theory of temporarily bandwagoning was thrown out the window by the recently retired Naval Chief - Admiral Sunil Lanba. Even he knows the value of America, as a friend. And his insults were far more stinging than mine ;)

And these statements below coming from the Indian Naval Chief, who knows far more about the scientific and technical capabilities of China vis-à-viv India.

Indian Navy chief says no need to give military angle to ‘the Quad’
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... XB9tN.html

“What do you think a military dimension will achieve? India is the only country in the Quad with a land border with China. In case of conflict…nobody will come and hold your hand,” Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said, playing down the larger role the alliance was supposed to play in due course.

Lanba said the countries involved in the Quad, such as Australia, were dependent on China for their economic welfare. “We are not going down that road and don’t there is a need to give a military dimension to the Quad,” Lanba said.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby kit » 06 Aug 2019 14:45

sudeepj wrote:What we need is stuff that can fight Salami Slicing, stuff that gives us a decisive advantage in subliminal 4G warfare. Most such stuff is really really refined/high tech, and most Russian platforms are industrial, rather than high tech.

sudeepj wrote:Coming to the nature of high tech.. technology is incremental in nature. We get criticized for reinventing the wheel, but if no one is selling you a wheel, you do need to reinvent a wheel to get a chariot!

Some of the techs has been acquired or in the pipeline, and these are likely not going to be in the open media. Modi 1.0 to 2.0 - the level of secrecy seems to go up in a way no ordinary mortal or armchair general is likely to get any knowledge of the actual tech transfers. This does happen and has its own price. "Watch for the big deals, they are not what they seem."

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby kit » 06 Aug 2019 14:47

Rakesh wrote:And these statements below coming from the Indian Naval Chief, who knows far more about the scientific and technical capabilities of China vis-à-viv India.

Indian Navy chief says no need to give military angle to ‘the Quad’
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... XB9tN.html

“What do you think a military dimension will achieve? India is the only country in the Quad with a land border with China. In case of conflict…nobody will come and hold your hand,” Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said, playing down the larger role the alliance was supposed to play in due course.

Lanba said the countries involved in the Quad, such as Australia, were dependent on China for their economic welfare. “We are not going down that road and don’t there is a need to give a military dimension to the Quad,” Lanba said.

the good admiral could not have said it better !! The western anglo-saxons just trying to get the elephant to fight the dragon for them, so much for "Quad".


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