India-US relations: News and Discussions III

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 29 Sep 2016 09:10

Yeah yeah, let's wait for some more crumbs being thrown our way. Why not come out in the open and declare Pak as a terror state? And more importantly, stop *all* aid (not just DoD, but WB, etc.). The US is still hedging its bets and will continue to do so for their own reasons. I mean, this is the same country that harboured OBL with a straight face, and US aid continued even after. So no need to celebrate some changed words here and there, after all, talk is cheap.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 29 Sep 2016 09:14

To continue the above, the same USG says this:

Ties with India, Pak. not a zero-sum game: U.S. - Varghese K. George, The Hindu

The U.S’s relations with India and Pakistan are not a zero-sum compact and it has interests in both countries, a State Department spokesperson said. The remarks came just hours after after External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj sought to corner Pakistan for supporting global terrorism and oppressing its Baloch minority community, in her address to the U.N. General Assembly. In his speech last week, Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had accused India of human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir.

The U.S has “seen the rhetoric, heard the rhetoric,” spokesperson Mark C. Toner said when asked about how these statements by India and Pakistan may impact the situation in the region. “I think our long-standing position is that we believe India and Pakistan really stand to benefit from the normalisation of relations between them and practical cooperation between them, and we encourage both India and Pakistan to pursue and engage in direct dialogue that is aimed at reducing tensions,” he said.

Enhancing capability

Asked for the comments on the ongoing first ever Russia-Pakistan military exercise, Mr. Toner said that was not an indication of any Great Game in South Asia.

“Look, we’ve long said with regard to Pakistan, with regard to India, with regard to the region, there’s no zero-sum game here,” he said. “….if the insinuation is that there’s some kind of tit-for-tat or Great Game being played out here, that’s not at all the case.”

Asked to comment on recent moves in the U.S. to have Pakistan declared a state sponsor of terrorism, Mr. Toner said: “Our focus with Pakistan is to enhance their capability, as I just said, to deal with a terrorist threat on their soil. They’re fighting a serious and sustained campaign against violent extremism. We do believe that they’re making progress.. {In effect, that bill in the US Congress will not go anywhere. No surprises there.}

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 29 Sep 2016 10:05

I wish very soon we could say ties between uncle and panda are not a zero sum game.

That said, however a bill that was not there before, is there now. It is almost like a sleeper cell which could be activated to make some news. However it seems like BD and Afghanistan might get to actually declare Pak as a terrorist state (TSP) before India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Sep 2016 10:08

US Military Aid , by Country

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Sep 2016 10:52

Rahul M wrote: would you guys stop posting US election news (that has no link to India) here in stead of the understanding US thread or should I lock and trash this thread ??
- Rahul.

FWIW, 800% Agree.

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Sep 2016 10:53

ramana wrote:RahulM, Take it easy. Its over in two months.
And regardless US elections(USE) have a big impact on India.
We locked up the old US elections thread which is not really about Understanding US thread (UUST).
UUST is about larger picture.
USE is a sub-set only. It will get lost there.

FWIW, 800% Disagree.

Request US Politics be kept out of this thread unless it has a direct bearing on India.

Too often what is posted has no bearing on India. For example I cannot see what Donald Trump's criticism of Lester Holt has to do with India.

habal · Post by **habal** » 29 Sep 2016 11:01

donald trump may be bad for green card and H1B visas and thus impact India negatively unless we can lobby with corporates that are close to his circles.

hillary will not be bad for H1B or GC in short or interim but will give boost to islamic terrorism and spike in atrocities in Syria and threat of WW3 if she just gets carried away.

pick your poison, i see no good choices here.

LokeshC · Post by **LokeshC** » 29 Sep 2016 21:09

H1B and GC are not strategically important to India.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 29 Sep 2016 21:25

LokeshC wrote:H1B and GC are not strategically important to India.

But for "many" Indians, they seem to matter. And they are the ones who either vote or influence votes.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 29 Sep 2016 22:31

arshyam wrote:To continue the above, the same USG says this:

Ties with India, Pak. not a zero-sum game: U.S. - Varghese K. George, The Hindu

The U.S’s relations with India and Pakistan are not a zero-sum compact and it has interests in both countries, a State Department spokesperson said. The remarks came just hours after after External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj sought to corner Pakistan for supporting global terrorism and oppressing its Baloch minority community, in her address to the U.N. General Assembly. In his speech last week, Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had accused India of human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir.

The U.S has “seen the rhetoric, heard the rhetoric,” spokesperson Mark C. Toner said when asked about how these statements by India and Pakistan may impact the situation in the region. “I think our long-standing position is that we believe India and Pakistan really stand to benefit from the normalisation of relations between them and practical cooperation between them, and we encourage both India and Pakistan to pursue and engage in direct dialogue that is aimed at reducing tensions,” he said.

Enhancing capability

Asked for the comments on the ongoing first ever Russia-Pakistan military exercise, Mr. Toner said that was not an indication of any Great Game in South Asia.

“Look, we’ve long said with regard to Pakistan, with regard to India, with regard to the region, there’s no zero-sum game here,” he said. “….if the insinuation is that there’s some kind of tit-for-tat or Great Game being played out here, that’s not at all the case.”

Asked to comment on recent moves in the U.S. to have Pakistan declared a state sponsor of terrorism, Mr. Toner said: “Our focus with Pakistan is to enhance their capability, as I just said, to deal with a terrorist threat on their soil. They’re fighting a serious and sustained campaign against violent extremism. We do believe that they’re making progress.. {In effect, that bill in the US Congress will not go anywhere. No surprises there.}

Like I have said before, east of Delhi Indian and US equations are aligned. West of Delhi they are not. We have no convergence w.r.t USA west of India. But that should not be stopping us from going all the way in the East but keeping our distance w.r.t West of India. USA and PRC will not allow Pakistan to fail. It is too important to both of them.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Sep 2016 22:36

Christopher Sidor wrote:

Like I have said before, east of Delhi Indian and US equations are aligned. West of Delhi they are not. We have no convergence w.r.t USA west of India. But that should not be stopping us from going all the way in the East but keeping our distance w.r.t West of India. USA and PRC will not allow Pakistan to fail. It is too important to both of them.

Who said anything about Pak allowed to Fail.
It is the question of Pak neighbors feeling normal with this kind of belligerent state.
Why is India suffering and Indians dying due to some foreign country and external problem.

After 911 there has been no change in Pakistan. It is the only Muslim nation which has not changed. Even KSA and Turkey have changed

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Sep 2016 06:01

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Excerpt from US State Department Daily Press Briefing September 29, 2016.

From here : Clicky

QUESTION: Do you have anything on the Indians surgical strikes against the militants along the borders with Pakistan?

MR KIRBY: Hang on a second.

QUESTION: Mr. Kirby, are you not going to take my question on Syria?

MR KIRBY: I’m going to answer her question and then I’ll be happy to answer yours.

QUESTION: Thank you.

MR KIRBY: So Nike, we’ve seen those reports. We’re following the situation closely, as I think you can understand. We also understand that the Indian and Pakistani militaries have been in communication. We believe that continued communication is obviously important to reduce tensions.

We’ve repeatedly expressed our concerns regarding the danger that terrorism poses to the region. And we all know that terrorism, in many ways, knows no border. We continue to urge actions to combat and delegitimize terrorist groups like LeT and the Haqqani Network, Jaish-e-Mohammad. So this is something that we’re obviously keenly focused on. Okay?

QUESTION: Follow --

QUESTION: Was there any prior consultation between the United States and India before the surgical strikes? I’m asking this because some media reports point out that Secretary Kerry has spoken to his counterpart and Susan Rice also spoke to her counterpart. So can you give us some --

MR KIRBY: I can confirm for you that the Secretary spoke with the – on the 27th, so earlier this week, with Indian External Affairs Minister Swaraj and reiterated his strong condemnation of the September 18th Uri attack. He condemned terrorism in all its forms and he cautioned against any escalation in tensions. Okay?

QUESTION: Follow-up?

QUESTION: After the second U.S. and India Strategic and Commercial Dialogue last month, what specific steps have been taken to strengthen cooperation on fighting terrorism between these two countries?

MR KIRBY: This is something we’re always working at with our partners in the region. We’re always trying to get better at combatting terrorism in the region. And there are many ways you can do that – through information-sharing regimens and increasing – like we said, increasing communication between all parties involved. So I don’t have a specific laundry list here to read out to you, because, frankly, it’s something that we’ve been constantly working at with our partners in the region.

QUESTION: John --

QUESTION: You said Secretary Kerry had cautioned against escalation. Was this attack an escalation?

MR KIRBY: I’m not going to characterize it. Obviously, it’s – I mean, obviously an attack like that escalates tensions. But what I don’t want to do is try to get into some sort of broad characterization, one way or the other. But obviously an attack like this is horrific. And --

QUESTION: No, but the Indian response – is that – would that – is that the kind of escalation that Secretary Kerry was warning against?

MR KIRBY: Oh, I thought you were talking about the Uri attack.

QUESTION: No, no. (Inaudible.)

MR KIRBY: Well, look, again, we – our message to both sides has been the same, in terms of encouraging them to increase communication to deal with this threat and to avoid steps that escalate the tensions. And I’m – I think I’m not going to get into characterizing each and every step along the way there. But obviously, what we want to see is increased cooperation against what is a very shared common threat for both countries, and to see steps being taken to deal with it by all sides.

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

QUESTION: If I may, I would like to quickly – on Sudan. Do you have anything --

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

MR KIRBY: Hang on, hang on. Hang on, hang on. Since we’re on India/Pakistan, we’ll go here – I’ll go – I’ll get you Goyal, all right? All right? Go here.

QUESTION: Yeah. Since this was a counterterrorism operation and there is strong coordination between India and the U.S. on counterterrorism issues, was there any coordination on this strike by the Indian forces?

MR KIRBY: I just don’t have anything for you on that. And as you know, I don’t talk about the specifics of military matters.

QUESTION: And when Secretary spoke to India’s external affairs minister, Sushma Swaraj, on 27, did he get any indication that India was going ahead with this kind of strike?

MR KIRBY: I just don’t have anything for you on that. I’ve read out the call to the level of detail that I’m going to.

QUESTION: So there has been one call or two calls?

MR KIRBY: Yeah, I’ve seen reports of two calls.

QUESTION: Yes.

MR KIRBY: There was a technical issue on the first call, so they had to arrange a second call to complete it. So was there two calls? Yes, there were two calls, but it was really one conversation.

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

MR KIRBY: Okay? Goyal.

QUESTION: Yes, sir. Thank you very much. Two questions. One, Ambassador Richard Verma was in Washington. Suddenly, he had to cancel everything, and he rushed back to Delhi. What was the reason and who he was going to meet, or if he rushed from here back to Delhi, was he carrying any message from the Secretary or from this building?

MR KIRBY: He did have to reschedule his event at the Wilson Center and, as far as I know, he’s returning to New Delhi. My understanding is that he believed that it was appropriate for him to go back. And I mean, he’s a – he’s got a big job, there’s a lot of responsibilities that come with it, and obviously it’s a very dynamic situation, and he felt it was prudent to go back. And we support that.

QUESTION: He’s doing a great job. And my second question is that, in recent days --

MR KIRBY: I’ll tell him you said so. (Laughter.)

QUESTION: -- Prime Minister Modi, he spoke about one thing – what he had a great message for the people of Pakistan that Pakistan and India both got freedom on the same day, but Pakistan is supporting terrorism, India is supporting ITs, engineers, and doctors around the globe. And what he said is Pakistan still has camps inside Pakistan who are attacking India. And finally, he said less attacks or fight against terrorism, hunger, and poverty; not against each other, each other peoples, and let’s have a development. Any message that you may have for Pakistan on this or what Prime Minister Modi said?

MR KIRBY: My message is the same as it was when Nike asked me about it. I mean, we understand that both militaries are in communication; we encourage that. We’ve expressed repeatedly our concerns about the danger of terrorism, cross-border terrorism, as well, in the region, and we continue to urge actions to combat and de-legitimize groups like LeT and the Haqqani Network and Jaish-e-Mohammad. I mean, these – as I’ve said many times in answer to you, Goyal, these are shared common threats that everybody in the region faces. And we believe it’s important for everybody in the region – and we’re obviously willing to, and have proven, willing to contribute to those efforts – to take that on, to take that on as a shared regional challenge.

QUESTION: And one more quickly, if you may I – thank you. Across the street today, U.S.-India Security Council, a non-profit organization, they had a high-class official from the Pentagon and other people also from the State Department. What they said that India and U.S. relations have gone – have come from far away and they are moving forward and they are not now, nobody can stop them. So do you agree that future of India-U.S. relations, what – according to their views and comments today?

MR KIRBY: I haven’t seen those comments. That’s the first I’ve heard of it. What I would tell you is that we remain deeply committed to the bilateral relationship with India and to advancing it on – across virtually all sectors of public and private enterprise, and that I think you’re going to see us remain committed to that. Okay?

QUESTION: Just one – John --

MR KIRBY: We’ll go to Syria. Let’s --

QUESTION: Just one on Pakistan.

MR KIRBY: All right, and then I’ll go to you.

QUESTION: Has there been any calls made from – any high-level calls made to Pakistani leadership on the need to de-escalate tension in the region?

MR KIRBY: I don’t have any calls to announce or read out to you.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 Sep 2016 06:25

Meanwhile business proceeds as it should = From Whitehouse site: (For Immediate ReleaseSeptember 29, 2016)
Joint Statement: 2016 United States-India Cyber Dialogue

The Governments of the United States and India held the Fifth U.S.-India Cyber Dialogue in New Delhi on September 28, 2016.

The U.S.-India Cyber Dialogue reflects our nations’ broad engagement and long-standing cooperation on important bilateral and global issues. The Cyber Dialogue is a forum for implementing the Framework for the India–U.S. Cyber Relationship, in particular exchanging and discussing international cyber policies, comparing national cyber strategies, enhancing our efforts to combat cybercrime, and fostering capacity building and R&D, thus promoting cybersecurity and the digital economy.

The U.S.-India Cyber Dialogue is deepening bilateral cooperation on a wide range of cyber issues and strengthening the U.S.-India strategic partnership by:

Exchanging information on cyber threats and issues of mutual concern, and discussing possible cooperative measures;
Promoting bilateral cooperation on law enforcement and cybercrime issues;
Creating a mechanism for cooperation, including setting up appropriate sub-groups;
Affirming common objectives in international cyber fora, especially the application of international law to state behavior in cyberspace, the affirmation of norms of responsible state behavior, and the development of practical confidence-building measures;
Confirming support for the preservation of openness and interoperability, enhanced by the multi-stakeholder system of Internet governance; and,
Coordinating cyber capacity-building efforts, including testing and standards with respect to cybersecurity.
The whole-of-government Cyber Dialogue, fifth in the series, was led by the U.S. National Security Council Senior Director for Cyber Policy Samir Jain and by Shri Santosh Jha, Joint Secretary for Policy Planning and Global Cyber Issues, Ministry of External Affairs. The Department of State Coordinator for Cyber Issues Christopher Painter and the National Security Council Secretariat Joint Secretary Shri Abhimanyu Ghosh co-hosted the Dialogue. The U.S. government interagency delegation included representatives from the Departments of State, Homeland Security, and Commerce, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Indian government was represented by Ministry of External Affairs, Ministry of Electronics & Information Technology, Ministry of Communication, Ministry of Home Affairs, Computer Emergency Response Team, National Critical Information Infrastructure Protection Centre, Central Bureau of Investigation and Defence Research & Development Organisation.

The two countries decided to hold the next round of the Cyber Dialogue in Washington in 2017.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 30 Sep 2016 06:25

To all the massa passand dalal's on this forum, this tells you how reliable this so called ally will be as it has been in past. Zilch/nada/nothing they did not say single word in supporting India's actions to defend itself by taking this pre-emptive strike against camps in Pakistan controlled territory. And you claim we are going to be tall ' r than mountain , deeper than ocean strategic partners

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 Sep 2016 06:52

arun wrote:

Excerpt from US State Department Daily Press Briefing September 29, 2016.

Just to add - FWIW: I know there is lot of funny-stuff in Paki (and other) newspapers claiming US's less than full support etc (and some concern here in brf from usual suspects) but Paki's H&D was not much of a concern from US (Specially from Obama./WH - I think WH might have been briefed before the news became public ). Current press briefings etc confirm that.

Even Nishan-e-pakistan Kerry was less generous to Paki H&D this time. BTW from what I know, the big item in newspapers about talking "twice" to SS to cool-it" is a bit exaggeration. SS spoke to Kerry only in UN (at the sideline of giving UGNA address) along with many other leaders. MANY world leaders actually congratulated SS after her brilliant speech in UN. SS can carry herself as a confident world class leader. (Unlike NS SS did not hang around US or London for longtime-- neither she was avoided like NS was from other leaders)

OT but recently we happened to find ourselves with an ex SOS of US (who is much maligned in Brf, hence not naming) at a party at some friend's place. Talk was mostly focused at US politics (elections) but I can tell one thing, even Pakistan's friends from old times are really very frustrated with Pak, and has zero respect for TSP, and days of = = remains only with old ignorant people - IMO.. Of course it is very hard to admit ones mistakes so the old guard still try to protect their H&D.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Sep 2016 07:01

krishna_krishna wrote:To all the massa passand dalal's on this forum, this tells you how reliable this so called ally will be as it has been in past. Zilch/nada/nothing they did not say single word in supporting India's actions to defend itself by taking this pre-emptive strike against camps in Pakistan controlled territory. And you claim we are going to be tall ' r than mountain , deeper than ocean strategic partners

You have a point, Krishna Krishna.

Transcript of US State Department Daily Press Briefing posted by me (Clicky) shows the US has refused to characterize India’s cross border strike on Mohammadden Terrorists in territory occupied by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as unreservedly legitimate.

US policy of Equal = Equal lives on vis a vis India and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

No material difference discernable between US views of attack on our Uri Camp by Mohammadden Terrorists from territory occupied by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and India’s cross border strike to neutralize the Islamic Republic of Pakistan sponsored Mohammadden Terrorists.

US refrain that India must indulge in dialogue with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan continues unabated.

Usual suspects pushing US Agenda here on BRF are living in wolkenkuckucksheim.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Sep 2016 07:28

krishna_krishna wrote:To all the massa passand dalal's on this forum, this tells you how reliable this so called ally will be as it has been in past. Zilch/nada/nothing they did not say single word in supporting India's actions to defend itself by taking this pre-emptive strike against camps in Pakistan controlled territory. And you claim we are going to be tall ' r than mountain , deeper than ocean strategic partners

They got their lemoa that too in the time of lame-duck president without giving anything in return, so they do a big favour to us by not condemning the attack.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 08:35

TSJones wrote:mentally ill minorities in the US like to hit, knock out, assault, rape, rob white women. it's the thing to do.

the Turk Muslim killed 4 of them in a Macy's store. plus one random male.

also quite popular is killing south Asian clerks in convenience stores.

a liberal is a person who hasn't been mugged, raped, or had a ghetto beat down yet.

TSJ ji, aap ke poorva janam mein aap kangressi to nahin? Just curious. wonlee. (Not that I take great pleasure in taking you down, but but but boss, you are exploring stygian depths in your rhetoric against yindoos). Sorry my friend but I suggest you buck up and stand for dharma (i.e. on the side of bhArat and incidentally liberal US citizens).

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 08:39

TSJones wrote:never mind the fact that certain minority crime is out of proportion compared to other population segments. it's the greatest animal farm tabboo of our generation.

Some are more equal than other?

make up your mind mon ami.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Sep 2016 08:40

Moody’s: Watch for Lockheed and Boeing to get more aggressive with fighter jets sales to India

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 08:43

LokeshC wrote:Warning: It has tables and statistics. May need some more skills. Please ignore if you want to remain ignorant:

LokeshC: You are breaking the cardinal rule of Game Theory. Never underestimate the opponent.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 09:09

NRao wrote: Obama had addressed this issue as it specifically applies to afro-americans, very early in his first term. And he has not brought it up since. Tell you something.

Good that you support the lame duck prophe ... err ... lame duck POTUS. Fine. please connect the dots in these sets:

{National Prayer Breakfast, Abraham Vereide, Heinrich Himmler}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Abraham Vereide, Methodist}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Methodist, Secretary Hillary Clinton}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, President Obama}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Billy Graham, Ronald Reagan}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, The United Kingdom National Prayer Breakfast}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Rajiv Shah, USAID}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Ben Carson}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Saint (Mother) Theresa}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Randall Wallace (who?)}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Benazir Bhutto}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, The Family (famiglia

?)}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, John Ensign}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, Mark Sanford}
{National Prayer Breakfast, The Fellowship, death penalty for homosexuality in Uganda}

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 09:14

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 09:21

Arjun wrote:
LokeshC wrote: White on White crime is more than Black on Black crime....
Not when normalized by their respective population percentages - in fact quite far from it. Certain racial and religious minorities (not all, only particular ones) are way overrepresented in crime stats in the US and many other countries. Not sure what purpose is served by papering over this fact....it might be more useful to discuss if discrimination or social conditioning could be the underlying reason.

It would be illuminating to look at the wikipedia page on the eminent physicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. I quote

In 2005, at a conference at the National Academy of Sciences, Tyson responded to a question about whether genetic differences might keep women from working as scientists. He said that his goal to become an astrophysicist was, "...hands down the path of most resistance through the forces ... of society." He continued: "My life experience tells me, when you don’t find blacks in the sciences, when you don’t find women in the sciences, I know these forces are real and I had to survive them in order to get where I am today. So before we start talking about genetic differences, you gotta come up with a system where there’s equal opportunity. Then we can start having that conversation."

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 09:33

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Sep 2016 09:35

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 30 Sep 2016 09:37

Christopher Sidor wrote:
arshyam wrote:To continue the above, the same USG says this:

Ties with India, Pak. not a zero-sum game: U.S. - Varghese K. George, The Hindu

Like I have said before, east of Delhi Indian and US equations are aligned. West of Delhi they are not. We have no convergence w.r.t USA west of India. But that should not be stopping us from going all the way in the East but keeping our distance w.r.t West of India. USA and PRC will not allow Pakistan to fail. It is too important to both of them.

While I agree in general, the problem is specifics. With nonsense like LEMOA and follow on lemons, there is no "cooperate only in one ocean". A strategic alignment that works only in parts will never work. For example, let's see if the US forces based out of Bahrain want to exercise with the WNC/SAC over the Gulf of Khambat for a legitimate anti-piracy or anti-terror issue. Such actions are in our interests - leverage the alignment and US mil power to achieve our ends. But they won't, for the sake of their munna. Which was why I am a votary of working with the US with the old arrangement without any formal agreements. That gave us enough leeway to do things in specific areas without getting tied down by a written word. These agreements anyway don't benefit us that much, unless the US is okay with our assets puttering about Gulf of Mexico

.

(addressed to no one in particular)
The so-called Indo-US alignment will at some point collide against US interests in keeping India down (this is not my CT, but a logically sound policy from US's side against a future competitor). To keep us down, Pak will definitely come in handy, and China will extract a price from the US as well, for it is in their (even greater) interest to do so. They will not keep watching the US try to "run with the hares and hunt with the hounds". China is economically more intertwined with the US than us, and will use that as leverage to prevent the US from doing anything to damage their own interests in the subcontinent.

Till then, it's cheaper and easier for the US to work with us against China, since we'll never actually get to do anything, apart from exercises. It's like a busy wait, as they say in software terminology. China knows that and will mutter some statements for public consumption and move on. And we think the great massa is engaging with us, so our ego is massaged (I know the latter sounds harsh, but sadly many Indians outside of BRF do feel that way). The real game for us is the Gulf/West Asia/Pak as our energy security is tied up there, but given US and Chinese interests, we are on our own there. So this so-called strategeric alignment US pasand folks keep talking about don't benefit us at all - in the most important area for us. What's the point of it then, from India's PoV?

At best, we can have a working but uneasy balance between the 3 of us, Pk being of no consequence.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 30 Sep 2016 09:39

matrimc-ji, looks like you were away for a while. Please see:

Rahul M wrote: would you guys stop posting US election news (that has no link to India) here in stead of the understanding US thread or should I lock and trash this thread ??
- Rahul.

I believe the discussions are continuing in the "understanding" thread.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Sep 2016 22:39

GShankar wrote:Looking at the US response to India's surgical raids in Pak, I am thinking it is overall favorable. Any reason this will change if either of HC or DT become p-ot-us? Is our current brotherhood temporary? Thoughts?

At this point in time, the US needs India. I do not see that change under Hillary. Under Trump, not sure (only because I have no clue who is advising him).

And, most imp of all, India is no longer the same. Because of Modi, pretty much every "analyst" is on the unemployment line. From Univ of Tokyo, through LSE, HU, Chicago, in India and elsewhere. That is no small development. And, we are not accounting fro it. Even with the previous two incidents along the border he has turned the tables on everyone.

So, I do not expect any country to do much about such surgical strikes. I bet China is thinking twice about her investments.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 30 Sep 2016 22:53

I think I am posting this again. The developed world has no choice other than help India in its development. India is the only country in the world with the necessary setup to absorb such large scale investment at this stage. China was at that stage in early 70s and the world economy improved as a result. India is in that stage now. All these agreements, accomodations, etc are for this economic development project.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 30 Sep 2016 23:11

Have to say, all those trips, 'weird' hugs and handshakes with Obomber was not for nothing. Some kind of an equilibrium has been established with both US and Russia. That should be the most concerning discovery for pakis and their tallel bros.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Sep 2016 23:31

As long as we understand what "strategic" means (or does not), none of this matters.

I would expect a good deal on the Indo-Pacific side and not much to nothing with Pakistan, other than not to tang adao.

At this point I do not see any nation preventing India, perhaps slowing it down some, but nothing beyond that. I think the ball is in the Indian court. And Modi is handling it rather well. Indians need to lead.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 01 Oct 2016 13:38

GShankar wrote:Have to say, all those trips, 'weird' hugs and handshakes with Obomber was not for nothing. Some kind of an equilibrium has been established with both US and Russia. That should be the most concerning discovery for pakis and their tallel bros.

If US and India co-operate, Both win.
If US and India do not co-operate, both still win- but a lesser prize than if they did co-operate.
If India wishes to co-operate (as proven by Modi's initiatives) but US decides to not co-operate (as proven by SD machinations), India looses but US wins.

Game theory 101.

Choice is very stark.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Oct 2016 14:17

The US for decades adopted the policy that a median/meridien divided the IOR running right through India from N-S. West of this median the US's bum-chum would be its favourite lusty rent-boy Pak,well versed in all perversions of the marital...sorry,martial arts.Pak would protect the behind,posterior,backside of the US lovingly as it waged war across the ME ,sanitising the nether regions of the Gulf,and sniff around the Persian rear.

East of the median ,would-be fellow-traveller,India,being initiated into the dark arts of Uncle Sam,degree by degree,would join the "Fellowship of the Ring (of steel)" with Oz,Japan ,SoKo and Singapore,with Vietnam another potential candidate along with the Philippines if its trigger-happy leader would stop ranting and raving against the US.Under no circumstances would the US allow India to look westwards or even travel with US warships,etc. in that direction.Our duty as a member of the Fellowship was to snarl and bare our teeth at the Dragon of yore,so that the US could retain its position as top dog of Asia. However,just as has happened in Syria,the only Asia-Pacific global power Russia,has begun flexing its muscles with the Dragon to remind the US that it is also an Asia-Pacific power.After all at one time Alaska belonged to it! Why it is stationing its latest SSBNs and SSGNs at Vladivostok.

Pak's latest perfidy in J&K has meant that India which was being led eastwards by the nose has yet again had to turn westwards to deal with its mortal enemy. Expecting India not to play its rightful role in the IOR whether it's east or west would be asinine on the part of the US which should now see the light of day and dump its perverted rent-boy and neuter its nukes,long delayed.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Oct 2016 07:37

Leaked videos partially pull back curtain on Mormon church

He describes how a former Indian ambassador to the U.S. helped him secure 200 visas for Mormon missionaries to establish "a pattern of dealing" in order to circumvent Indian bureaucracy. He suggests they use other Mormon senators — Mike Crapo of Idaho, Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett of Utah, and Harry Reid of Nevada — in similar ways.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Oct 2016 12:05

The "Church of the Latter Day Morons" ...oops! "Mormons",sorry,has been making extensive inroads into India for well over a decade.Their Asian HQ is in the Philippines from where they orchestrate events in India.Bangalore appears to be their Indian HQ (as there's much moolah there!),but their ops have taken them into Tier-2 cities too.They are often a familiar sight at Indian airports,wearing black suits with their nameplates,looking like religious "men in black"! They are a definite threat to India as they can be considered agents of the CIA/US intel.Highly secretive about their affairs unlike other church groups.They have nothing in common with mainstream Christianity and even in the US are sometimes controversial especially their (now allegedly discreet) polygamous behaviour.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 04 Oct 2016 12:21

All foriegn missionaries should be deported. Its easy to check for visa violation.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2016 15:11

Hillary Clinton on Assange "Can't we just drone this guy" --

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/782906224937410562

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2016 15:13

U S Demands to Assassinate Assange

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 05 Oct 2016 09:24

Mean-e-while, Since the petition to WH to declare Pakistan a terrorist received record signatures the petition was closed down on suspicion of fraud:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1288110

There goes the "sar t gic partners" theory down the drain.