India-US relations: News and Discussions III

[Singha]

^^ its hard to imagine what kind of a world these elite liberal arts metro types live in , but time to time one gets glimpses...

[ldev]

Considering this as Bharat rakshak forum and not Massa's rakshak forum individualist view like above should also take into consideration what about citizens of land of milk and honey that do not belong to particular color who were born here and raised here, you intend to say that they take a hike because certain forefathers belong to different color they get more rights than you even though law of land promises equal rights ?, Hypocrisy at its best.

Views like that reminds me of gungadeen of this age and they deserved to be treated like such.

The above is theory, laws and rules and regulations have tried to suppress what we are at heart - tribal - all of us, when the veneer of sophistication peels off. It does not matter that you were born there, you do not belong - as yet. As an observer I can say that for Americans, it matters if you have shed blood with them, fought with them in the trenches (that is why they still have a soft corner for the much despised Pakistan - they helped them defeat the Soviets), and built up their country. Indian immigrants there have not yet crossed that rubicon, at least in the public perception. Being software kings in Silicon Valley does not count.

[OmkarC]

Indeed.

In one of my old companies there were rumors of layoffs and thanks to that I got to understand where I stood with my coworkers. After a few of them got drunk at a nearby sports bar they started on a rather loud discussion along expected lines.

One of those "OMG" moments. After that day the feeling was :- "I work with these jackasses who spit on me behind my back????!!!!!!"

When the going gets tough, we need a scapegoat :- and that is someone who is unlike us (zee brown / black guy usually)

Well, I think they all loath each other. Whites don't usually have the kind of feelings that desis have. It shows up in their personal lives also.

1. The ex-CEO of a previous company of mine just died in an accident. I texted my former manager asking for reference and mentioned this because I just heard it. She said yes, too bad, and then immediately moved on to other topics. Not a moment to talk about the man who promoted her, gave her raises etc.
2. Our EVP in the same company promoted all these goras way about their skill level. The desis (me included) he did not but said he will. Then layoffs hit and re-org and the EVP's was moved from Product to Development head. The goras he earlier promoted started backstabbing him and eventually got him fired to save their own asses.
3. In almost all companies I have been in, when a person (higher up) is there, they kiss his ass, and when they leave, they talk crap about him and how he was incompetent.
I don't trust most of them.

There is truth to this. I was in SF Bay area and found a woman in late 20s looking hungry and begging on the street w/ a 3-4 yr old child. There are people all over SF begging, but this was a young girl and she looked famished. I was unable to help her as I didn't have cash on me at all despite her imploring me a few times. Over the evening, me and my colleagues (all goras) went to dine w/ a hi profile vendor, where we were wining & dining on $600/head at a fancy french restaurant, I did feel guilty about the splurge, a 1% of which could have helped a starving mother & child, and mentioned it to my colleague. His reply was "Ya, my son wanted to buy a puppy during our vacation in Maui and I felt bad when I didn't have cash on me, but that's life" and went on about another topic. There is a certain depth beyond which they cannot empathize - its a cultural thing, its pointless.

[Yagnasri]

There is no kindness in Leftists. They somehow think that the state and babus are the solutions. The right thinks that in the end, all will be well if free enterprise is there. But both have no time for the helpless even if they are in front of them.

[OmkarC]

Which "White"?

They beat up on the British.
They beat up on the French.
They beat up on the Spanish - all the way in the Philippines.

The guy who shot Srinivas actually was tossed out of the bar and he returned with a gun. I have no idea what I would have done any differently, than those two Indians, were I in that situation.

I have had cans and bottles thrown at me, but those were one-off - from passing vehicles. I have had Hispanics spit at my car, with my kids in it. I have had A Paki, at 2 AM, grab my parking spot. I have faced a French person at an airport that for some reason was irate with me. After 911 I had been pulled out of lines a few times, at the ticket counter, then again just prior to boarding a plane (it stopped once they were provided with some info).

On the flip side I have had really great experiences too. When I look back and think of "Srinivas", considering I am a "rural" guy, it is even more amazing.

All it shows is you have put up w/ $hit that most NRIs also do, but it is vital NOT to become desensitized to public humiliations and set a low bar on your self respect.

I got some kids scream at me while driving past in an SUV that "they hate Indian people" when me and SHQ were walking in traditional Indian clothing - but I screamed back with more expletives than they ever bargained for.

The price of self respect is to be prepared to sacrifice everything at every single moment of life. If they see you are unafraid, they will think twice.

[Yagnasri]

Goras, in general, are not going to treat us as their equals anytime soon. To go and live in a nation ruled by them and expect equal treatment or even a small amount of respect is unwise. Particularly in the US which considers itself "exceptional" nation. To them, we are the beggars from rubbish societies and nations came half naked and hungry to their nation to live there. Now that they themselves are facing hardship, they think we are taking what is theirs. I do not know why our people live in the US find it surprising if they are mistreated.

[arshyam]

I got some kids scream at me while driving past in an SUV that "they hate Indian people" when me and SHQ were walking in traditional Indian clothing - but I screamed back with more expletives than they ever bargained for.

I've done that a few times too, despite folks being about. I didn't care for echandee. Of course, one never knows if one of them is packing, but if they are, they probably are gonna shoot you anyway. Once got a shot thrown at me while in my work campus - it narrowly missed my head and whizzed right past my ear . Security didn't take my comments seriously till I threatened to go to the cops. Haven't felt that scared for my life anywhere in desh.

I do not know why our people live in the US find it surprising if they are mistreated.

A weird form of stockholm syndrome? Say what you want about black Americans, the liberal media gives them the reporting space because *others* from the community take some action or are aggressive in general. The muslims seem to have adopted that playbook, hence sympathetic coverage post Trump or the quotation of CAIR and not HAF in the recent Kansas attacks. We OTOH, simply turn the other cheek and keep quiet* for that GC, passport, kids, edu, etc. Why would we get any sympathy when things like this happen?

One has to take what one wants. That's how the US itself was built - ask the people who don't exist anymore. Something for our PIOs and NRIs to ponder about.

*Ironically, after putting up with lotsa such shit, many of these current and former NRIs then turn around and courageously complain about PIO process or some GoI rules . Perhaps shows which country is more tolerant of FoE...

[NRao]

All it shows is you have put up w/ $hit that most NRIs also do, but it is vital NOT to become desensitized to public humiliations and set a low bar on your self respect.

I got some kids scream at me while driving past in an SUV that "they hate Indian people" when me and SHQ were walking in traditional Indian clothing - but I screamed back with more expletives than they ever bargained for.

The price of self respect is to be prepared to sacrifice everything at every single moment of life. If they see you are unafraid, they will think twice.

You seem to be unafraid by yelling back, which I consider as low self respect.

I am unafraid by doing what I like anywhere I please AND not get yelled at. Which is what I meant by "rural" (where I am a lot more comfortable)(with my lungi) and I would have done exactly what Srinivas did - and perhaps would have been dead too.

But, people read into others posts what they think and how they would react. Nothing new on the internet, thus BR too.

So please carry on with your self analysis and self respecting yelling.

I do not know why our people live in the US find it surprising if they are mistreated.

Is that the norm? Are Indians mostly treated badly?

We have had issues because Indians have been confused for Mexicans. But a talk with authorities sorted that out.

Ya, my son wanted to buy a puppy during our vacation in Maui and I felt bad when I didn't have cash on me, but that's life

Just out of curiosity, how do second gen Indians think? I would not be surprised if they lean more towards such thinking.

[chola]

The danger is from the marginalized communities anywhere because it is ultimately linked to economics !

In the big cities and towns - the danger is broadly speaking from Blacks and Hispanics. In the more rural parts of the US, Indians should be wary of the marginalized white rednecks.

I dont know Arjun. what wrecks your life more - a work place with racist snide remarks for which you get up every morning to work and strive OR some black bum on the street mugging you once in a decade or less whom you will never have to see again except in jail or court (if you choose to).

Right. I hear this classic sentiment from IT wallahs complaining of racist remarks while staring out the tinted window of their glass towers.

If you are a taxi driver, a convenient store owner, a gas station attendant or the proprietor of any family business in New York, New Jersey, San Francisco or any other large desi center outside the IT Wallahville of San Jose, then it is not a black bum mugging you "once in a decade." It is a fu-king daily roll of dice that can end in injury or death not some hurt feelings from snide remarks.

That risk of injury or death comes overwhelmingly from blacks and hispanics not whites.

You worry about words, they are concerned with life and death. Full stop.

That 100s of deaths from blacks and hispanics can be outweighed by the far fewer deaths from white bigots is stupidity.

One, we cannot mind read and blithely dismiss the racial element in the murders commited by blacks and hispanics. Any desi who grew up in an American urban areas would know that blacks and hispanics are just as racist towards Indians as whites and are far more willing to use violence. Of course, they are more likely to rob you after insulting your ethnicity than whites. Because robbery was involved, it absolves them of bigotry?!

Two, I have no patience for politically correct "rankings" of murders. A person killed through robbery is just as dead. If hundreds to one kill ratios are maintained by these "oppressed" minorities then common sense tells you that desis are far more in danger from them than whites.

I do not pretend that goras are not racist. I've been involved in many altercations with these fu-kers from grade school onward. In college, it seems every time I go on goddamn date I get into a fight with a white frat boy. But I also grew up urban and have many relatives working shop in NYC. The threat level between a black and a gora is night and day. The fuc-ing numbers back this up.

[OmkarC]

You seem to be unafraid by yelling back, which I consider as low self respect.

I am unafraid by doing what I like anywhere I please AND not get yelled at. Which is what I meant by "rural" (where I am a lot more comfortable)(with my lungi) and I would have done exactly what Srinivas did - and perhaps would have been dead too.

Instead of turning this into a "cannibalistic" ad-hominem (cannibalistic, because I am also an Indian like you and fighting w/ me is pointless), please work w/ me to think of a better solution to this issue.

All that matters when faced w/ racist situations is how you survive and yet put a premium on your sense of self-respect.

Being a "Gandhi" & displaying "stoic silence" when being spat on by opponents is not a good approach I think because the aggressor party will mistake your silence for cowardice and will only aggravate the aggressor. This was a lesson learnt by Korean shopkeepers during LA riots who protected themselves very well by arming themselves.

I am seriously considering arming myself and checking out options. The process including background checks seems easier than getting a green card in EB-1 category

[Viv S]

The idea that 'White people' are racially predisposed to racialism is in itself a racist idea in my book. Racism isn't owned by any particular race or ethnicity. A cursory examination of history should be enough to disabuse one of that notion. The Irish, the Italians and later the Polish in the US. Romanis, Gypsies & Jews in Europe. The non-Han in China, the Chinese in Korea, the Koreans in Japan and so on. Indians & Europeans in post-colonial Africa.

But 'Brown people' are different right? No discrimination between different shades of brown?

No but at least Indians are different? Due to our intrinsicly inclusive culture, upbringing, religion and what have you. Whatever discrimination or violence exists on caste, gender or regionalism grounds, at least its never explicitly racist. Right?

Well, I don't live in the US, I live in Delhi. I know how North Easterners (chinkis) & Africans (habshis) are treated here, despite their unthreateningly minuscule numbers. Which is why I find it very hard to summon a feeling of moral superiority wrt to an entire race of people without feeling like a hypocrite.

[Sicanta]

Well, I don't live in the US, I live in Delhi. I know how North Easterners (chinkis) & Africans (habshis) are treated here, despite their unthreateningly minuscule numbers. Which is why I find it very hard to summon a feeling of moral superiority wrt to an entire race of people without feeling like a hypocrite.

I can agree with this but even in the worst cases, i don't remember anyone trying to shoot either group or asking them to go back. And btw, delhites have this mentality of being superior to anyone coming from tier 2 city also. Plus , correct me if i am wrong, has law ever discriminated against the two groups?

[Viv S]

I can agree with this but even in the worst cases, i don't remember anyone trying to shoot either group or asking them to go back.

Nobody's shot them because we've got strict gun laws in India. Beaten to death? Oh yes they have.

And btw, delhites have this mentality of being superior to anyone coming from tier 2 city also. Plus , correct me if i am wrong, has law ever discriminated against the two groups?

Here we go again.. from racialism to regionalism, eh?

As it happens, most Delhiites are immigrants. Many from Tier 2 cities, many from Tier 3 cities, and even more from villages. Whatever applies to Delhiites, applies to a cross-section of Indians (albeit mostly from North India).

[Sicanta]

And btw, delhites have this mentality of being superior to anyone coming from tier 2 city also. Plus , correct me if i am wrong, has law ever discriminated against the two groups?

Here we go again.. from racialism to regionalism, eh?

As it happens, most Delhiites are immigrants. Many from Tier 2 cities, many from Tier 3 cities, and even more from villages. Whatever applies to Delhiites, applies to a cross-section of Indians (albeit mostly from North India).

Maybe the 1st gen may have some connection to their birth place but their children most certainly don't see themselves as immigrants. I can see that with my cousins. As it goes, you will find many people from north-east working in lucknow, gorakhpur, bareilly and other cities. Never ever heard them being referred to as 'chinkies'. This is a delhi term. I myself heard it 1st in DU.

[chola]

The idea that 'White people' are racially predisposed to racialism is in itself a racist idea in my book. Racism isn't owned by any particular race or ethnicity. A cursory examination of history should be enough to disabuse one of that notion. The Irish, the Italians and later the Polish in the US. Romanis, Gypsies & Jews in Europe. The non-Han in China, the Chinese in Korea, the Koreans in Japan and so on. Indians & Europeans in post-colonial Africa.

But 'Brown people' are different right? No discrimination between different shades of brown?

No but at least Indians are different? Due to our intrinsicly inclusive culture, upbringing, religion and what have you. Whatever discrimination or violence exists on caste, gender or regionalism grounds, at least its never explicitly racist. Right?

Well, I don't live in the US, I live in Delhi. I know how North Easterners (chinkis) & Africans (habshis) are treated here, despite their unthreateningly minuscule numbers. Which is why I find it very hard to summon a feeling of moral superiority wrt to an entire race of people without feeling like a hypocrite.

Exactly.

[Yagnasri]

I agree that we are also racist in our views. Let us observe how we see white women when they come to our city. Many times our people look at them as if they are "easy" and "available". Same with NE ladies also. We somehow think they have no "morals" like "us".

The worst thing we have is how we look at poor in India. Yes, it is not racist. But is it not comes from the same kind of ideas. Indian poor for us are sub-humans.

Another thing about the NRIs and their families, parents living in AP think that those who did not go to the US, etc. are good for nothing fellows. This thing is quite common in AP. I have seen one of my sister's sons repeatedly insulted by his own uncles etc. because he is still in India. This is not the case with the people who went to the US in the 1980s. This rabbish started with the 1990s in AP.

Mr Srinivas went there to make money and have a good life. He should have been more careful and thought twice to go to a nation and settle wherein these kinds of risks are there. One can be sure that he has opportunities back in India. Now his wife says that the US government has to answer for that. Really? Does anyone think WH bothers with one NRI's murder?

I agree that most of the NRIs feel a strong emotional connection with India. We also feel the same connection with them. But let us accept that a choice is made to live in the US and they have to accept the risks. Hope this tragedy serves as a warning to people who are jumping to go to the US at the first opportunity.

[krishna_krishna]

The above is theory, laws and rules and regulations have tried to suppress what we are at heart - tribal - all of us, when the veneer of sophistication peels off. It does not matter that you were born there, you do not belong - as yet. As an observer I can say that for Americans, it matters if you have shed blood with them, fought with them in the trenches (that is why they still have a soft corner for the much despised Pakistan - they helped them defeat the Soviets), and built up their country. Indian immigrants there have not yet crossed that rubicon, at least in the public perception. Being software kings in Silicon Valley does not count.

Thank you for accepting that all is not well in the land of milk and honey and racism is widely accepted and not all citizens are equal even though they are guaranteed equal rights by the Constitution. Hence regarding HR violations you cannot lecture smoking on being on high moral ground.

Regarding porkis they being asked to do more , you can shed your last single gungadeen blood drop still you'll be asked to do more.good luck with that

[Viv S]

Maybe the 1st gen may have some connection to their birth place but their children most certainly don't see themselves as immigrants.

Of course they don't. Its a city of immigrants, there's nothing to set you apart as one. Unlike other metros, there are no locals or 'sons-of-the-soil', save in outskirts or inner-city 'gaons'. The city is the closest thing that exists to a (urban) microcosm of India - there's no dominant or unifying culture or ethnicity.

[krishna_krishna]

Mr Srinivas went there to make money and have a good life. He should have been more careful and thought twice to go to a nation and settle wherein these kinds of risks are there. One can be sure that he has opportunities back in India. Now his wife says that the US government has to answer for that. Really? Does anyone think WH bothers with one NRI's murder?

I agree that most of the NRIs feel a strong emotional connection with India. We also feel the same connection with them. But let us accept that a choice is made to live in the US and they have to accept the risks. Hope this tragedy serves as a warning to people who are jumping to go to the US at the first opportunity.

I do not know when you say"we" who else is included apart from you but would you say the same if same happens to goras visiting and working in desh ( I know so many f them) including targeted discrimination, humiliation and rape of diplomats under immunity ? Or much asmple question would you say the same if it was your son ( who may be even born and raised in that country ?

If not than I would shut up

[Primus]

......................

Just out of curiosity, how do second gen Indians think? I would not be surprised if they lean more towards such thinking.

In all of this, we tend to forget the perspectives of our own children and extended family that have grown up here. My own kids see themselves as 100% American, hang out equally if not more with Whites than Desis. They do not see themselves or their friends as racist in any way. Their friends come to our weddings attired in Indian outfits, my friend does a Sathyanarayana Vrata several times a year and his neighborhood whites come wearing kurtas and attend the ceremony, be they Jews or Christians.

This may happen in suburbia, but I have also seen it in small towns, so while there is racism and mistrust, there is also understanding and acceptance.

One of the things that we have not discussed in this thread at all is what happens when your kids marry whites? In my extended family and friend circle, at a rough estimate, 16 of 27 kids have either married or are engaged to be married to white (one black) Americans. These are all Hindu kids who were either born here or grew up here from before the age of 5.

How does your perspective change when you have a huge mixed group of people at your events, be it Diwali or Holi or a Puja or a wedding or lately, sadly a funeral? Do we also hate all those white people that have married our sons and daughters, or believe that they are racists or otherwise prejudiced against their newly acquired families?

When I first came here I was dead against my kids dating Americans, then I realized how stupid that sounded and let them live life freely, of their own volition. To be able to truly integrate in any society you absolutely have to have a relation that goes beyond the workplace. Unless you share homes with them and share in their joys and sorrows - and let them share in yours - it is impossible to understand each other fully.

Prejudice and racism will never go away, it is how our brains are wired, but humanity can and does prevail, if you allow it to. In the end no place in the world is safe, and yet every place is, it all depends upon your own perspective, to a large extent.

[krishna_krishna]

+1 but this is more on the lines of official blind eye\ discrimination , we have seen that in grandfather's case, dev k case list goes on. It's nice to have Bhai chaa. I had goras come to India to attend our marriages but none of them will support publicly on prosecuting those crime, there in lies issue at core that does not change with change in color

[Varoon Shekhar]

Another thing about the NRIs and their families, parents living in AP think that those who did not go to the US, etc. are good for nothing fellows. This thing is quite common in AP. I have seen one of my sister's sons repeatedly insulted by his own uncles etc. because he is still in India. This is not the case with the people who went to the US in the 1980s. This rabbish started with the 1990s in AP.
.

Do these uncles realise how small and shallow such views are? What are their reactions to real Indian achievements in space, defense, nuclear, supercomputing, power generation, oil exploration et al? It was engineers, scientists and yes, IT professionals who made it all possible. Are the uncles going to say, that all these fellows were foolish to stay in India, and should have gone to the US?

[NRao]

Instead of turning this into a "cannibalistic" ad-hominem (cannibalistic, because I am also an Indian like you and fighting w/ me is pointless), please work w/ me to think of a better solution to this issue.

My first post gave you an idea.

There are no solutions.

But if you want to join someone there are plenty of organizations, including ex CIA operatives and Service people, that are attempting to bring about peace.

There can never be solution to such problems. You can only manage them. In that only you can act - as an individual.

That is the crux of Vedanta.

And just BTW, I am NOT trying to be critical of you or anyone else. I am only trying to explain my position based on my experience. Simple as that.

But like I have said often: internet and how our minds are colored.

[NRao]

Primuse,

My experience too.

One more question. Is the opposite true? Do the kids of Indians participate in events from other "cultures"?

That mingling has to be there and natural.

However, even then , we are bound to face discrimination. I just do not see that fading away.

[krishna_krishna]

My first post gave you an idea.

There are no solutions.
There can never be solution to such problems. You can only manage them. In that only you can act - as an individual.

May be there is no solution for you but others don't think that way. The younger generation of India a who came to zuS in 2000s and later do not share the same slave mentality that older generation has.Lot of water has flown under river ganges in last eight years (even though more needs to change)

Good luck with managing your disgrace and taking it very nicely( even enjoying it ,if that's a better way to put it ). Whatever views you may have please do not generalize, also keep advise to join "see aye yeah" for bringing world peace(eye raq is still fresh in memories ) to yourself, not everyone believes in such antique cool aids.

[Primus]

Primuse,

My experience too.

One more question. Is the opposite true? Do the kids of Indians participate in events from other "cultures"?

That mingling has to be there and natural.

However, even then , we are bound to face discrimination. I just do not see that fading away.

NR Ji, I am not sure I understood your question. Our kids - mine certainly take part fully in rituals and the culture of everyone else they interact with.

I do that too, whenever invited. Thus I have attended the Passover Seder several times with Jewish friends, have been to Synagogues for their children's Bar/Bat mitzvah ceremonies, have been to churches for funerals and weddings etc. I have also attended several muslim events (though not been to a mosque yet) on invitation.

The kids (some in the family are in their late 30s) are fully integrated, they travel all over the world attending events in the lives of their friends. My son is the best man at an Irish-American's wedding to be held later this year in Amsterdam. What else could be said?

Will any of this end discrimination against people of color? Absolutely not. As I said, it is hard wired in our brains and only prolonged exposure to the other side can help. Even then we meet whites who are boorish and aggressive against non-whites, you just need to learn to ignore them and move on.

In May 2013 for the first time there were more babies of color being born in the US. By 2050 whites will be a minority. The government will consist of people of all races and faiths. The hegemony of the Caucasian is over. We can either all learn to live in harmony, accept all the warts in all of us or be at war perpetually.

[Primus]

My first post gave you an idea.

There are no solutions.
There can never be solution to such problems. You can only manage them. In that only you can act - as an individual.

May be there is no solution for you but others don't think that way. The younger generation of India a who came to zuS in 2000s and later do not share the same slave mentality that older generation has.Lot of water has flown under river ganges in last eight years (even though more needs to change)

Good luck with managing your disgrace and taking it very nicely( even enjoying it ,if that's a better way to put it ). Whatever views you may have please do not generalize, also keep advise to join "see aye yeah" for bringing world peace(eye raq is still fresh in memories ) to yourself, not everyone believes in such antique cool aids.

KK Ji, my humble question to you, what exactly do you propose the millions of Indian who have made the US their Karmabhumi do? There is no way I am going to pack my bags and return to India. I cannot paint myself white like Jacko, I love the name my parents gave me (my kids are both named after Nakshatras and use them proudly), even if I became Christian I would still be Brown, my accent is unchangeable now (can't stand the desis who put on a false American accent anyway).

So how do I prevent attacks of the kind that happened in Kansas. At most if I recognize one in the making I run away - cowardly perhaps but life is more important than pride to most people.

Perhaps what the Indians can do as a group is to stop the internecine bickering. Where there are four Indians there are five associations - one for each and the fifth for them all. This Telugu Samaj, Tamil Samaj, Gujarati Samaj, all has to stop, make it just one Indian Samaj. Elect your own people to power - provided they have not sold themselves to white interests already. Above all, work to make India resurgent. No matter how long you have lived here, you are still identified as Indian, and thus your image is inextricably linked with that of India. If India is respected, so are you. And India will be respected if it is both economically and militarily stronger than most other countries in the world.

[Yagnasri]

Is it not the premise of the free enterprise and freedom which the US try to teach all the world is that people responsible for their decisions and face consequences of their decisions? If someone leaves his nation and goes some other place for better life, he or she shall face whatever risks associated with that. Do they not? If my son leaves my nation and me and goes elsewhere to have a good life, then good luck to him. He has to face the result of that decision even if they are tragic like this. You can not have it both ways.

When people ask who are "we" you need to read newspapers here which regularly celebrate all the achievements of the US citizens of Indian origin quite well. Many people feel proud of them. Even in the case of the murder of Srinivas, there is a lot of sympathy for him. Even Venkayya Naidu who does not speak about his party workers getting killed day after day in Kerala is talking about this incidence. But the fact remains that he went there for good life and had to face the consequences.

Just like the US has to look after its citizens, India is also required caring for its citizens. If Mr Srinivas is our citizen, then we shall take the matter with the US authorities. If he is not, then we can only feel sad about it. There is no obligation for us to look after people who are nationals of other nations other than the civilisational link. With people like Bobby Jindal, we do not have even that. Once you voluntary let go your citizenship then you can not claim anything from us as a matter of right. If I am a minister of the MoE I will not waste my time if our citizens are not involved in this kind of incidence.

[krishna_krishna]

So you say that it is same if a visitor goes to all barbarian or our land is same onlee and we do not care about them. Hold on that thought so you are same as res of the bad guys.

Next time something happens in India expect the same. Regarding Srinivas if you believe you do not have anything to say or bad luck this kind of shit happens because he was just indian , good luck to you. Nothing more to say.

Regarding India caring for its citizens , a demarche has already been served to Massa's. Read posts before indian is doing for its citizens what a responsible countries do. The spineless gungadeen have either migrated or become old and are getting lesser by the day. Good onlee.

I wish something like this does not happen to any indian (citizen or not) , I wish you read about that high school boy in NJ who was hounded and not allowed to speak or that grandfather whose assaulters were treated hero's. If someone enjoyed others houses burnt karma doesn't discriminate. Those people will find theselves alone too, Shubham Astu.

Primusji, I neither say you leave nor I am in position to say so. The question you ask is what we should be discussing ,the solution lies in around you look at Israelis they protect their own never discriminate based on passports every drop of their keen is dear to them. They make sure they prosper and always try to increase their numbers viaimmigration or otherwise.they just had treaty visa signedwhich means they have their own reservations without fuss for talent or whatever all you need to show is just 200k in bank. Protect your own (never let go any crimes on your community events swept as just unfortunate individual events), teach you kids to do the same,have them reach positions of power but do not become another brown sepoys and just accept the truth that there is discrimation done very methodological way against Hindus.that is all I am trying to point out. Look at South Africa even though there is majority how clolored people are treated vs someone just come via plane from bartania, you have to see to believe. Again if you think changing numbers the equation will change I disagree.

[UlanBatori]

If Mr Srinivas is our citizen, then we shall take the matter with the US authorities.

Just a small suggestion: B4 going into a long and pompous rant, it might (have) be(en) a good idea to do a wee bit of homework and find out what the pakistan one is far*ing about. Of course that might be considered "unindian" in some circles. Why do you think (sorry! Making a huge assumption there!) two Consular Baboon rushed out there?

The above is an example of the sheer callous indifference of RNIs to everything. But enough said.

[vasu raya]

After the Indian grandfather was assaulted and the said officer is reinstated absolving his crime, Indian government should pursue a case of its own treating that guy as a fugitive. Don't leave it upto foreign jurisdictions and I believe NIA was about to bring in such a law.

[LokeshC]

The cop verdict is expected. It is extremely rare for cops to be in any kind of trouble for using force of any form and intensity while a badge is on. Especially if the skin color of the person whom the force was used on is a convenient one.

They have even gotten away with killing white teenage kids from middle class families.

[kiranA]

Racism is not a "risk" that one signs up for because they want to better their financial or other prospects . It is a crime against humanity with brutal consequences in the past. Every nation including USA signed up against it. When african students were attacked in India they took out rallies in India, beat up Indian policemen, surronded suspects in their houses. Note that all of the attacks had a context (prostitution/drugs etc) and none of them were random and done out of sheer spite at their skin color. But still Sushma Swaraj had to explain India's conduct to diplomats and envoys of african countries. That was the right thing to do.

Ofcourse I am not saying one should not take sensible precautions. But one need not shrugg off when attacks happens with some excuse such as "risks" etc.

[kiranA]

There are three distinct areas here

1) Circumstances facing americans of Indian origin, or NRIs. these people went to USA on invitation of USA (VISA), worked for american economy and took up citizenship because USA offered them citizenship.
2) Circumstances facing indians within India. Colorism present in India, general incompetence of administration etc

3) General understanding of racism , how it works and how it manifests

Due to unique position of this forum where a militaristic forum has numerous foreign members (of american citizenship) and even indian members with american residency , all of these areas should be discussed with mutual empathy .

But whats happening is several people like to make a show of how they are not responsible for people in other areas. We have seen in H1b discussion how the area 1) folks had this devil may care attitude about 2) people and their aspirations and actually claiming that they embarass them. Now we are seeing 2) folks making a show of how they are totally not responsible for 1) plight and they signed up for it. And we have several ppl in 3) bringing up weird concepts of hispanic racism.

How can a useful discussion happen ?

[kiranA]

One thing though despite full acknowledgement of any racism etc I am still puzzled why this did not get the coverage it should have got. It has ever ingredient that is needed - an employee of american multinational, a PoC, a completely random murder with no context whatsover, a politican charged environment. Trump's no comments policy has really shown where the clowns like shalabh kumar really stand. Some news articles addressed this :

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... 8D12K.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_RxHWFreyI

[JwalaMukhi]

But whats happening is several people like to make a show of how they are not responsible for people in other areas. We have seen in H1b discussion how the area 1) folks had this devil may care attitude about 2) people and their aspirations and actually claiming that they embarass them. Now we are seeing 2) folks making a show of how they are totally not responsible for 1) plight and they signed up for it. And we have several ppl in 3) bringing up weird concepts of hispanic racism.
How can a useful discussion happen ?

Indians in general and SDRE yindoos in particular are babes in wood when it comes to closing ranks and collective bargaining. SDREs have a very very long way to go to achieve that.
Example: Even TSJ programmatically, inherently by instinct displays solidarity with a rabid Aussie EJ, because of "whiteness with religious" bonding. Just one of those factors alone would not elicit such response. A colored US blogger, who got hacked in Bangladesh elicits no response, while a rabid Aussie EJ is empathized. When SDRE yindoos, reach that level of sophistication, then SDREs have arrived. Otherwise, SDREs arguing because one stayed back, one ventured out, reminds of what one fondly calls "street tap water fight". When SDRE reach programmatically and inherently, as TSJ ji then SDREs have arrived.

[svinayak]

Indians in general and SDRE yindoos in particular are babes in wood when it comes to closing ranks and collective bargaining. SDREs have a very very long way to go to achieve that.

TSJ did psy ops.
Some of the posters fell for it and replied. India does not owe any explanation for those events to anybody
India does not have a history of slavery an racist social disorder.

Foreigners dont have rights inside India. Even Ej and Christians dont have any automatic rights for conversion.

Most Indians of this generation are too nice in reply and feel defensive.
Once they are aware of the data from other country and their history , then those indian replying do not need to be defensive

Those foreign posters very nicely ignore the data from their country and only point other country.
They are right and others are wrong

[UlanBatori]

Ultimately, this is a hate crime. Not the first in the US or anywhere else in the world, and sadly, won't be the last. I fully support the idea of using it to highlight the occurrence and cause some P-I-T-A to the US Embassy, USCIRF, etc etc. But let's not lose perspective beyond that.

One sore need in the US (and elsewhere) is for desis to BAND TOGETHER and convey some educational experiences to these types, modelled on what the Morris Dees establishment in Alabama has achieved, and what the ADL has achieved. The message has gone out loud and clear on those: Biss on us, lose ur knickers. No mercy. This is done completely through the Constitution and legal means. It takes really smart lawyers. More, it takes community support.

How many warriors here have even heard that parents in California have been forced to sue the Board of Education AGAIN, because 10 years after the 2006 scam, those sh1ts pulled the same hate stunts? Has anyone opened their wallets to help those parents? Spent their time going around making presentations at the Mandirs etc to drum up awareness (talk about dimly-aware ppl!!!) and a few dollars?

How many have heard about the people in Forsyth County, GA, until recently the seat of the KKK, who have had to go to court because they were denied permission to build a house of worship by racist bigots?

Why has a massive punitive damages lawsuit not been slapped on the Alabama county where the granddad was slammed to the ground, whether or not the policegoon went free? How about a boycott against the county?

Where was the outrage when the freshman kid in Rutgers U, having exhausted other means of exposing the fact that the FRESHMAN DORM was being used as a homosexual brothel with 30-year-olds visiting dorm rooms to bugger freshmen, posted proof on the Internet? The kid was tortured and destroyed - why was the University not sued with a demand to close it down, or pay $100M in damages?

Where was the outrage when a Harvard-bound kid in New Jersey (NJ is probably worse than Mississippi and Texas combined in terms of violent racism) was badly hurt in school by the racist administrators? Why was that school not sued for a $100M?

Back in the 2000s we tried our best to actually DO something to help raise awareness and turn the tide of pakiness that was then threatening to slam India - US bombers over India were a distinct possibility then, and not for Military Joint Exercises either. Some of us are tired. The New Gen here at BRF seems to be indistinguishable from that on, say, REDIFF. GOOD thing we don't have to fight the Pakis any more. Sorry to have to say this.

[SwamyG]

Viv, I live in US; and Indians can be racist too. But the Indian racist at least in America is hardly of the virulent variety. He is more of a variety mumbling or bad mouthing in get-togethers. Largely harmless; more looking down upon other races & laughing at them. What happens in desh could be different.

[Arjun]

The need of the hour is to band together as Indian Americans with an apex organization in the SPLC / ADL mould (like the occasionally-wise Mongolian suggests).

There will be immense & MASSIVE pressure to band together as South Asian Americans, or victimology-driven front of South Asian+ Arabs + Muslim organizations. This needs to be totally and virulently resisted ! Going further down the path of victimhood with partners such as these will certainly not be in the long-term interests of the Indian American community.