India-US relations: News and Discussions III

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2016 00:03

BK's article is old stuff in new packaging. Lot of holes, so difficult to take it seriously. How he extrapolates R&R into basing I have no idea. For sure he has some vivid, colorful visions.

The US and India are tied at the hips in certain areas and have independent policies in others. That is the way the world order will operate - Venn diagrams (of course China has own version of the universe, diff story).

LEMOA is just a formalized version of what has been in place for years now. And is expected to play key role in peace time - which should be some 90+% of the time.

I would be concerned about the other two agreements than this one.


I have asked this before. What have the Indian Services, specifically the IN, to say about this agreement?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby pankajs » 31 Aug 2016 00:32

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/l ... 051378.ece

On Monday, India and the U.S. signed the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) that will give the militaries of both countries access to each other’s facilities for supplies and repairs. The agreement has been a controversial one, and two previous governments – led by A.B. Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh – did not sign it though it has been on the table since 2002.

Ashley J. Tellis, Senior Associate, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace explains what the pact is and what it does to India-U.S. defence ties:

Is this a case of “overcoming the hesitations of history” as Prime Minister Narendra Modi said about India-U.S relations? Or a natural progress in the course set with the civil nuclear deal?

It represents both: the nuclear deal was the epitome of overcoming the hesitations of history on both sides. The signing of the LEMOA is a small — actually quite trivial — example of the continuing transformation of the bilateral relationship.

Does this put India and the U.S. on the path to becoming military allies?

No, it does not make India either a de jure or a de facto ally. All the LEMOA does is that it allows both countries to seamlessly pay for military goods, services, and supplies consumed during their exercises and other interactions. The decision to engage in any of these activities remains a sovereign decision of each government — nothing in the LEMOA changes that. So the issue of India becoming an ally of any sort does not arise.

No military bases, both countries say. What IS it then? Could you please give one or two scenarios in which LEMOA will come into play?

I am mystified by this obsession with bases. The U.S. has LEMOA agreements with over 100 countries but basing agreements — which are different — with only a fraction of those partners. Two examples of the LEMOA’s utility: A U.S. carrier battle group steams from the Persian Gulf to the western Pacific through the Straits of Malacca. Along the way, Indian Navy ships operating off Cochin are authorised by the GOI to conduct a previously unprogrammed passing exercise with the U.S. flotilla. During the exercise, the U.S. vessels offload fuel and supplies from their Indian counterparts. Instead of having to pay in cash for the victuals, India simply maintains a ledger balance for the transactions, which is cleared in one go at the end of the fiscal year. Similarly, an Indian naval vessel suffers a maintenance problem while visiting the U.S. for an exercise. The repairs are done at an American port. The LEMOA will permit the costs of the repairs to be defrayed against any comparable debts the U.S. may owe India for supplies and services received in other circumstances through a simple “balancing of the books” at the end of the fiscal year.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby CRamS » 31 Aug 2016 00:42

Guys, DDM headlines are going ga ga over Kerry's supposed tough message to TSP. But from my cursory reading, it does appear that Kerry did the usual equal equal rope trick. On terror he did mention no good terrorists or bad terrorists, but he said it in such general terms that even TSP ISI will repeat the same. In the same breath he also praised his TSP munnas for taking on Haqqanis. So I am left wondering what is his so called "tough" message to TSP. Did he even mention LeT by name? Jaish by name? Just wondering.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby pankajs » 31 Aug 2016 00:49

India too at times makes tangential references to Bakis so that should not be an issue. As Modi once said in UAE, samajne wale samaj jaiange. Isara kafi. Anyways we shouldn't depend on others to solve our problems or make statements in our interest.

On another note, Kerry announced the start of trilateral talks between India, Afghanistan and the US to discuss stability in Afghanistan. This is certainly going to irk Bakis.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby pankajs » 31 Aug 2016 01:03

http://www.firstpost.com/india/india-us ... 83844.html

Parrikar also clarified that the agreement will not involve in setting up bases.

"It does not have anything to do with setting up bases. It is for logistics support to each other ... Like supply of fuel, supply of any other things that are required for joint operations, humanitarian assistance and many other," he said.

The Indian Defence Ministry also took to Twitter to dispel fears regarding the agreement.

"LEMOA is a facilitating agreement that establishes terms, conditions, procedures for reciprocal provision of logistic support, supplies, service. Reciprocal logistic support would be used exclusively in port visits, joint exercises, joint training, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief," Defence Ministry tweeted from its official account.

It added that LEMOA does not create any obligations on either party to carry out any joint activity, does not provide for the establishment of any bases or basing arrangements, and significantly enhances operational capacity of our armed forces, including in response to humanitarian crises or disaster relief.

<snip>

"This does not imply we become a US military ally. We are not obliged to provide support to any and every US military operation in the region," said strategic expert and Director of Society for Policy Studies C. Uday Bhaskar.

What it does do is .....
The agreement, viewed as part of the Obama administration's Pivot to Asia strategy, was criticised by a leading Chinese state-run daily, which warned that New Delhi may irritate Beijing if it "joins the US alliance system".

"If India hastily joins the US alliance system, it may irritate China, Pakistan or even Russia," the Global Times said in an editorial.

"It may not make India feel safer, but will bring strategic troubles to itself and make itself a centre of geopolitical rivalries in Asia," it added.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Bheeshma » 31 Aug 2016 01:52

Something deeper is involved. Why does US pivot need bases in Indian ocean? They have subic bay, Singapore and Okinawa to neuter china. Vietnam will also lean that way if china is not careful. But if it helps IN expand into SCS, then so be it.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Aug 2016 02:55

US govt. tells Bharat that since GE doesn't want to share tech of 404 / 414 engine, though US govt. is ok with sharing the company doesn't want, so drama obama's dtt or whatever it was ticks off the first rejection.

In return Parrikar ji goes and signs lemoa; which for some reason was carter's mission from deep state US to make the Bharat sarkar sign it, US was desperate for it and they got it, what did Bharat get? Nothing ....

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ashbhee » 31 Aug 2016 03:24

What will be the impact of Hilary Clinton's presidency on India-US relations?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ldev » 31 Aug 2016 03:54

ashbhee wrote:What will be the impact of Hilary Clinton's presidency on India-US relations?


The Clintons have always been available for sale to the highest bidder. You may remember Bill Clinton's first trip to India after his Presidency and some of the illustrious Indian businessmen he met. Wonder how many of them donated to the Clinton Foundation, Clinton Initiative or in whatever name Bill Clinton was accepting money in those years....

At the same time Hilary's closest aide is Huma Abedin...the one person that Hilary has relied on more than anybody else. And besides being a Sunni, she and her parents have heavy Saudi influence. So the call of the Ummah will be ever present. Huma grew up in Saudi Arabia and her parents set up the Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs (supposedly funded by the Saudis).

You may remember it was during Bill Clinton's time as President that he famously handed over Asia to China to "manage" and Pakistan was overjoyed with this arrangement. It took the arrival of George W Bush to change that.

I think that one of the reasons for this flurry of visits between the US and India over the past few months is that GOI wants India-US relations to be institutionalized so that constraints are established on the ability of a US President to massively change policy towards India. In a sense, signing LEMOA, the DTTI initiative are changes that will make it difficult for Hilary should she be elected to follow in her husband's footsteps and outsource Asia to China.
Last edited by ldev on 31 Aug 2016 04:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2016 04:11

Slow day.

Why does US pivot need (additional) bases in Indian ocean? T


Did the US ask for any bases from India? Not seen any such request this decade. IF the US did, I would oppose a US base on Indian territory too.

US govt. tells Bharat that since GE doesn't want to share tech of 404 / 414 engine


A few misunderstandings. The US SD controls tech distribution, they initially had a stop on engine techs to India. This "stop" (my word) is what was overturned in Dec of 2015. That placed the ball in GE's court.

However, the tech that India wanted was for the GE F414-EPE. India wanted to pay for the development and co-develop it too, which included (from an Indian perspective) the IP for that engine. It was the IP that GE declined. As far as I know - a few months old story - talks are still underway and GE is prepared to co-develop the EPE for Indian use and manufacture, but not share the IP. In short India - if they get that engine - cannot use that knowledge on the Kaveri (as an example).

added l8r:

This is what I found. I assume it means they have come to an agreement on what IP can be shared and what cannot in the co-development of teh jet engine.:

The Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) comprising officials of the two countries has already concluded its terms of reference for cooperation in this area. The matter will be discussed when Parrikar meets his US counterpart Ashton Carter in the US.


I think, both the carrier and the jet engine, will arrive in some shape or form.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Aug 2016 05:07

NRao wrote:...

This is what I found. I assume it means they have come to an agreement on what IP can be shared and what cannot in the co-development of teh jet engine.:
...

I think, both the carrier and the jet engine, will arrive in some shape or form.


FWIW, what GE is angling with Boeing as a differentiator from LM's F-16 offer is F/A-18IN> Blocks 3++ that may morph into AMCA project (with F-414X) with promise to bring it into 2020s vs 2035. IOW, 150 F/A-18s in moving line to India but with sweetener that local capability after 150 units is such that ecosystem leads to 200-300 AMCAs as "co-produced" fighters referred to under DTTI.

It is Boeing/GE counter-offer to LM's $15 billion in exports of F-16 and spares concept. Boeing goal is 150 F-18INs plus AMCA and GE EPE etc engines.

Actually we can use both which is what MP had mentioned. Exports are offsets, 100% FDI as integrator

Question is LCA. Dunno where that fits in

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2016 06:34

Forbes.

China And Pakistan Should Note -- This Week, India And US Sign The LEMOA Pact

Around August 30, in Washington, India and the U.S. will sign the LEMOA pact that makes them logistical allies against, among others, the superpower China currently making a bold power grab in the South China Sea.

Specifically, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar will sign the deal during a two-day visit in Washington. The deal is the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA), a foundational agreement for India and the U.S.. In this instance, the agreement provides for each to use the other globally for supplies, spare parts, services and refueling. Effectively, U.S. armed forces can operate out of Indian bases, and vice versa, on a simple basis.

For the U.S., this is one part of the much larger “pivot” to Asia intended by President Obama to meet a rising China. The U.S. Navy plans to deploy 60 percent of its surface ships in the Indo-Pacific in the near future. Instead of having to build facilities virtually from the ground up, as in Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. has the benefit of simple arrangements for the tremendous Indian facilities.

For Prime Minister Modi, it is a one further step, part of a much broader move for India away from its Cold War alliance with Russia, toward a new alliance with the U.S. (and Japan and Australia) to protect the Indian Ocean and the seas off Southeast Asia, especially from China. India remains on hostile terms with China from border disputes dating back to a war in the 1960s. And, the gigantic engines of their economies are, for the most part, rivals.

For both the U.S. and India, LEMOA responds to the powerful challenge of Xi Jinping’s artificial islands – with air bases — in the South China Sea. It may also matter against the common enemy of the U.S. and India in radical jihadists.

For example, ISIS recently carried out a terror bombing in Bangladesh. What if ISIS got a substantial ground effort going, not as much as their “caliphate” in Syria and Iraq, but on the substantial scale of their effort in Egyptian Sinai and Libya? Having LEMOA makes it much simpler for American naval and air forces to refuel, resupply, and so forth. The U.S. does not have actual bases in India. But, it has the next best thing – a simple way to use India’s bases.

LEMOA is the key way-station on agreements still to come of military technology sharing of tremendous importance for India, again, primarily to help it stand up to the emerging superpower of China. One upcoming deal is the Communications and Information Security Memorandum Agreement (CISMOA). Another, the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geospatial Intelligence (BECA).

With prior pacts, thru LEMOA, ultimately to CISMOA and BECA, India increasingly can either buy (and use), from the U.S or others, or make itself, top-of-the-line technology for its air force and navy to stand up to China’s, particularly in the Indian Ocean. Pakistan, it must not be forgotten, is making itself a base for Beijing’s forces to operate in its region. Modi has made India a tremendous buyer of advanced weaponry. The U.S. is by far the world’s largest seller of weapons.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby krishna_krishna » 31 Aug 2016 07:53

Guru's was going through text of LEMOA, what worries me in the exclusion list are surveillance radars or tracking devices are not included. On a separate note here is deep state sh@t don't like a bit :

https://twitter.com/d_jaishankar/status ... 2614102016

Exclusion list under #5 of applicability which are under exclusion from US side under their laws and regulations :
a. guided missiles
b.naval mines and torpedoes
c. nuclear ammunition and included items such as warheads, warheads sections,projectiles,demolition munitions and training ammunitions
e. cartidges and air crew escape propulsion systems (AEPS) components
f.guidance kits for bombs and other munitions
g. chemical munitions (other than riot control agents)
h. source, byproduct, or special nuclear materials, or any other materials, data or thing which is subject to atomic energy act of 1954

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby deejay » 31 Aug 2016 07:58

Bheeshma wrote:Something deeper is involved. Why does US pivot need bases in Indian ocean? They have subic bay, Singapore and Okinawa to neuter china. Vietnam will also lean that way if china is not careful. But if it helps IN expand into SCS, then so be it.


There may well be something deeper involved but it does not have anything to do with bases. LEMOA does not deal with bases. US ships have been coming to India earlier and will come again later.

My guess is LEMOA allows US ships operating in the area hang out longer with easier replenishment of supplies.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby vishnua » 31 Aug 2016 07:59

I don't know why ppl are getting bent out of shape. When will you trust at least one Govt. if you cannot trust this govt then i am not sure even GOD can help India.,

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby krishna_krishna » 31 Aug 2016 08:07

^^^Government is not god. There is no harm in criticizing govt for wrong decisions which you believe are not in national interests same as we curse today Nehru for previous debacles

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby pankajs » 31 Aug 2016 10:17

Citizens have a right to question their government.

Notes:
1. China stays a single political unit and continues on its trajectory of becoming the dominant economic and military power in the Asian context.
2. US is past its prime and will continue to loose power relative (Not in absolute sense) to China and India.
3. US will withdraw one day (25-50 years from now) from the Indian Ocean to focus exclusively on protecting its western flank.
4. US policy makers had come to the above realization a while back and offered G2 to China.
5. China too is aware of this dynamics (US leaving IOR) and was the reason it rejected the G2. Why bargain over something that from their pov was going to fall in their lap anyways.
6. India has about 20-25 years to ensure that it ready to fill the vacuum that will be most certainly will come to pass on the US withdraw from IOR and not cede control to China.

China's Naval goals
A. Control SCS (SSBN fortress)
B. Break out of First Island chain (Challenge US on its own turf and its western flank)
C. Dominate Indian Ocean (Break past the Andaman Iron curtain, Secure its Crude supplies and Restrict India's freedom of movement just as US has done to China in the past)

All its port facilities in the IOR region is in pursuit of the 3rd point. Gwadar is the keystone to this project and to counter Indian advantage at Malacca. In theory, If India were to apply a choke at Malacca China would be counter by doing the same at Strait of Hormuz. Gwadar backed by CPEC (Robust Rail and Road network linking Kashgar) would allow them to dominate the Arabian sea similar to what they have done in Tibet and dominate the Himalayas. In my view, Gwadar/CPEC are not so much about bypassing Malacca but about ensuring that India does not block Malacca once the US is out of IOR.

Till we have the power to challenge China in its backyard what do we do to counter their expansion in the IOR? You will note that Chabahaar is upstream in a sense to Gwadar as far as oil flows are concerned. Plus you lean on the shoulders of the current power in the region i.e US and take all help that is forthcoming without sacrificing core national interests.

US has a big presence in the gulf and you support their deployment in the Arabian sea from Bombay/Gujarat. That will sandwich Gwadar from the sea side. You then provide *moral* support to the baloch and Gilgit people in their struggle for independence. You keep the Baki pot boiling like in Karanchi. Build capabilities to cut the CPEC artery in the treacherous Himalayas (Brahmos on MKIs to target bridges and tunnels). Also support US deployment around Malacca via Andamans. LEMOA should be seen in this context.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 31 Aug 2016 10:26

http://www.sify.com/news/let-me-be-clea ... jiahc.html
Let me be clear, US stands with India: John Kerr
New Delhi: India and the US on Tuesday reasserted the urgent necessity for Pakistan to dismantle safe havens for terrorist groups and criminal networks and said there can be no difference between good terrorists and bad terrorist
"Secretary (John) Kerry and I discussed at length the issue of terrorism, which is the key challenge to the international community, and the foremost threat to international peace and security," External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said in a joint press interaction with US Secretary of State John Kerry, Minister of State for Commerce and Industry Nirmala Sitharaman and US Secretary of Commerce Penny Pritzker after the conclusion of the Second India-US Strategic and Commercial Dialogue here....
Gautam
PS I do not know why but such statements from the US (specially from the likes of Kerry) just fills me with disquiet. Must be my age.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 31 Aug 2016 10:34

vishnua wrote:I don't know why ppl are getting bent out of shape. When will you trust at least one Govt. if you cannot trust this govt then i am not sure even GOD can help India.,


just like there are congi butt kissers, there are BJP butt kissers too.

Modi is trusted but what if some U$ butt kissers in India are operating in stealth mode because of some visa, green card, citizenship or U$ job for family considerations and consequently are not dotting the i's and crossing the t's??

Every effing law made in India has back doors and loopholes, deliberately left in so that the baboo(n)s and slimy politicos can exploit it legally and at will. Parliament knowingly passes such legislation because all stand to benefit onlee

What if the U$ has slyly acquiesced such loopholes and back doors, all for a few dollars??

Haven't we had some NSAs etc and other hired quisling baboo(n)s and corrupted political guns who let familial loyalties come before duty to country??

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby svinayak » 31 Aug 2016 10:51

krishna_krishna wrote:^^^Government is not god. There is no harm in criticizing govt for wrong decisions which you believe are not in national interests same as we curse today Nehru for previous debacles


This is a state to state relations being built.

If there is a problem in the future this can be changed.

There are risk and it has to be mitigated.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 31 Aug 2016 10:59

svinayak wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:^^^Government is not god. There is no harm in criticizing govt for wrong decisions which you believe are not in national interests same as we curse today Nehru for previous debacles


This is a state to state relations being built.

If there is a problem in the future this can be changed.

There are risk and it has to be mitigated.


The state we are aligning with is far away and the state that we are aligning against shares a really long border with us.

It would only be prudent to make doubly sure that all is kosher because the proximate consequences are only on us, while for the U$, it may be little more than academic/commercial interest.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby svinayak » 31 Aug 2016 11:03

That is a good point.
But the state which we share the border is claiming a large part of Indian territory
It is attempting to encircle India
It is supporting a terrorist state and also protected the leader of terrorist outfit
It has threatened naval activities in IOR
It has warned India in SCS
It has tried to tilt the smaller neighbors state with -ve result on India
It is now threatening India for aligning with another country with business agreement and new pacts for Indian interest

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby krishna_krishna » 31 Aug 2016 11:14

Chetak, read my post above I already gave a link about Jaishankar's son being brookings fellow all his masters, gc etc. would be paid by you know who. And also he is on same dias as SSM on one of the twitter post so it is an insider job definetly.

Lastly I do not think it was a purely commercial venture if that's the case. Porkis or few other states in the region would surely happy to take up task for a price. Be it SL, Bangladesh so many countries, inking with India means something for them think on that term

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 31 Aug 2016 11:16

svinayak wrote:That is a good point.
But the state which we share the border is claiming a large part of Indian territory
It is attempting to encircle India
It is supporting a terrorist state and also protected the leader of terrorist outfit
It has threatened naval activities in IOR
It has warned India in SCS
It has tried to tilt the smaller neighbors state with -ve result on India
It is now threatening India for aligning with another country with business agreement and new pacts for Indian interest


The U$ is no saint by any stretch of imagination. It's various state organs including it's toxic to India deep state have little agendas of their own which we may not be completely able to factor in right now.

Look at what it has done to the pakis and how it has reduced them to a vassal state, broken and devastated. The pakis are better at managing the US than India will ever be and yet they find themselves f@cked and far from home.

The pakis deserve every bit of what they unwittingly brought down upon themselves by relying solely on their imagined management ability.

Best be cautious and learn from other's mistakes.

For all the reasons that you mentioned above, we have to be very wary, of both the U$ as well as china.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 31 Aug 2016 11:20

krishna_krishna wrote:Chetak, read my post above I already gave a link about Jaishankar's son being brookings fellow all his masters, gc etc. would be paid by you know who. And also he is on same dias as SSM on one of the twitter post so it is an insider job definetly.

Lastly I do not think it was a purely commercial venture if that's the case. Porkis or few other states in the region would surely happy to take up task for a price. Be it SL, Bangladesh so many countries, inking with India means something for them think on that term


In the ultimate analysis, no matter how one spins it, it all comes down to dollars and cents.

Power is never for power's sake alone, no matter how it looks in the beginning.

It is parlayed into access for resources, markets and ultimately into security of exclusive access to markets and resources.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Dilbu » 31 Aug 2016 15:14

I think US will be able to station some of its assets at all times in Indian bases (on rotational basis) under the pretext of this agreement. Enough to make China worried.


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arshyam » 31 Aug 2016 17:06

^^ How did the US MSM react to this news? Would be interesting to see what the beltway bandit and Georgetown/Columbia/CFR deep state views this as.

Karthik S wrote:arshyam ji, whom will you vote for? Not by any means supporting the accord but unfortunately, we don't have any other alternatives.

I agree. But some actions are redlines, and this one is for me, especially since the text is not made public. I have argued against this agreement earlier, and nothing has happened to make me change my mind. I guess I must look up the procedure for the NOTA option.

vishnua wrote:I don't know why ppl are getting bent out of shape. When will you trust at least one Govt. if you cannot trust this govt then i am not sure even GOD can help India.,

Saar, never trust a politician. Or as the Russians say, "trust, but verify" :). In this case, we cannot verify till the text is made public. Not sure why that's not been done so far.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 31 Aug 2016 17:47


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2016 20:32

vishnua wrote:I don't know why ppl are getting bent out of shape. When will you trust at least one Govt. if you cannot trust this govt then i am not sure even GOD can help India.,



its not about trust. One can voice their doubts and who knows collectively we can come to conclusions. (Wisdom of crowds and all that).

Besides during the UPA the mantra was to trust MMS blindly for his honesty while all around him were stealing and label any other voices as Conspiracy Theorists.
Who were eventually proven beyond wildest imaginations.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Aug 2016 20:39

Why is LEMOA part of "foundational" agreements? Foundation for what? How will DTTI come to fruition without BECA or CISMOA? Lack of CISMOA has already resulted in withholding of certain communications equipment on the P8I and C130J.

These three agreements are designed to accomplish a regime controlled by the US to transfer technology, enable logistics and seamless communications. I think part of the problem is the wider Indian public has a very different notion of the above objectives. e.g: technology transfer to the US is all about the sale of products with embedded proprietary technology and its licensed use without compromise to its technology.

I hear many times by folks on the lines that if these agreements enable India to "get" technology to maybe build and learn to make its own products that would be great. Indian expectations or at least the public view of the expectation and US objectives are on different pages here.

People should be very clear on what the US is seeking to achieve with these agreements compare it with Indian objectives and ensure that both parties are in sync on the objectives. The objective of these agreements is to build a reliable allied relationship, from a US perspective. What is the Indian objective behind these agreements?

I would really like Indians to spell out these Indian objectives for these agreements.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 31 Aug 2016 20:50

ShauryaT wrote:Why is LEMOA part of "foundational" agreements? Foundation for what? How will DTTI come to fruition without BECA or CISMOA? Lack of CISMOA has already resulted in withholding of certain communications equipment on the P8I and C130J.

There three agreements are designed to accomplish a regime controlled by the US to transfer technology, enable logistics and seamless communications. I think part of the problem is the wider Indian public has a very different notion of the above objectives. e.g: technology transfer to the US is all about the sale of products with embedded proprietary technology and its licensed use without compromise to its technology.

I hear many times by folks on the lines that if these agreements enable India to "get" technology to maybe build and learn to make its own products that would be great. Indian expectations or at least the public view of the expectation and US objectives are on different pages here.

People should be very clear on what the US is seeking to achieve with these agreements compare it with Indian objectives and ensure that both parties are in sync on the objectives. The objective of these agreements is to build a reliable allied relationship, from a US perspective. What is the Indian objective behind these agreements?

I would really like Indians to spell out these Indian objectives for these agreements.


those communication equipment is not of much use to India and it is strongly suspected that it has "back doors" that enable tracking of the platform on which it is fitted. if used by the IN, the russians will scrap the nuke sub deal forthwith because of their security concerns.

Moreover, the fitment of such equipment entails that we permit the US to "inspect" their equipment on a periodic basis necessitating very intrusive access to out bases.

If we don't want it, WTF are they so interested in pushing it??

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby deejay » 31 Aug 2016 21:53

Joint press briefing: Ashton Carter and Manohar Parrikar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qsjOaDHYMI


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby vishnua » 01 Sep 2016 00:12

ramana wrote:
vishnua wrote:I don't know why ppl are getting bent out of shape. When will you trust at least one Govt. if you cannot trust this govt then i am not sure even GOD can help India.,



its not about trust. One can voice their doubts and who knows collectively we can come to conclusions. (Wisdom of crowds and all that).

Besides during the UPA the mantra was to trust MMS blindly for his honesty while all around him were stealing and label any other voices as Conspiracy Theorists.
Who were eventually proven beyond wildest imaginations.



I understand your point the first sentence even though your comparison with MMS is way off. Anyway let us wait and see. may be someone in the know how will clarify. I see ppl asking very legit questions but this is at early stage. Massa is notorious and has quiet good track record after WW 2 in these matters. They like to have poodles in every region.

Where is Acharya now a days ? Is he on here in a diff avatar?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Rudradev » 01 Sep 2016 03:25

I don't understand the wholesale bellyaching here. Signing LEMOA does not equate to India selling the farm lock, stock, and barrel.

The US in the past has signed many agreements, treaties etc. with "Indian" nations: Sioux, Cherokee, Navajo and others. When it became convenient to do so, the US simply "failed to honour" those agreements any longer.

We can also fail to honour LEMOA or any other agreement we sign with anybody should it become detrimental from the point of view of our interests. GOI knows this, Moscow and Beijing know this, and Washington knows it too.

For now the optics are what matter. As a result of our signing LEMOA, the Chinese are feeling our brown unglis up the yellow river valley. Xi is the kind of dense, self-aggrandizing Han jerkwad who has repeatedly begged to feel our unglis. From the moment Modi won the election in 2014, he has tried to reach out to Xi in a friendly manner and push forward a path based on cooperation. Xi has responded by ordering PLA incursions into Himachal Pradesh at the very time he was engaged in a summit with Modi; by suppressing moves to have Pakistani strategic assets censured as terrorists by the international community; by blocking India's entry into NSG and trying desperately to enforce the international re-hyphenation of India with Pakistan; and by investing more money into the CPEC and more Chinese military and civil personnel into unlawfully occupied Indian territory... Gilgit-Baltistan and POK... to back it up. All this while simultaneously facilitating a tripartite nuclear proliferation + collaborative testing program between NoKo, China, and Pakistan, and trying to elbow everybody else out of the South China Sea and openly flout the UNCLOS.

Belatedly Mr. Modi has decided to give up on the better relationship he had hoped for with China, and decided to show them ungli instead. Tanks in Ladakh, Su30s in DBO, roads up and down Arunachal Pradesh, exercises in the SCS with the US and Japanese navies, all the things MMS was too cowardly to consider. LEMOA for the US amounts to the biggest such ungli yet, especially since it is overtly cast as a response to Chinese encroachment on the SCS via artificial islands.

But let us keep that in perspective, too. Just as, with some geopolitical rearrangements, the Chinese can move their assets off the SCS artificial islands or dial back their claims on Indian territory/investment in CPEC, either India or the US can roll back the LEMOA as a quid-pro-quo measure. What LEMOA gives both the US and (especially) India is a card to play. For example, if Xi decides to make nice with India, we can delay the necessary filing of triplicate jerox copies in some remote corner of a South Block office that happens to be particularly critical to make the LEMOA de-facto implementable. OTOH, if Xi continues to be recalcitrant, we will find more unglis to jam into the yellow river. That is how the game is played.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Rudradev » 01 Sep 2016 03:37

I am also very skeptical of the idea that Putin will distance himself from India and embrace the Pakis in a fit of pique over our signing the LEMOA. Putin isn't a reactionary idiot. He understands the compulsions of geopolitical maneuvering as well as, or better than, anybody else. He knows that our alignment with the US, to the extent that it exists, is entirely China-specific. He knows that one day he, too, might need India as a counterweight against a China that becomes a threat to Russia itself. And he surely knows how much the Pakis are to be trusted.

If Russia actually backpedals away from its close proximity to India, denies us Akula-II SSBN and other technologies, and conversely embraces Pakistan... then we can be sure that Russia is doing this for its own reasons and on its own initiative, not because we signed the LEMOA. Putin does NOT react... he did not react when the Turks shot down an Su-27, but quietly and effectively pursued his own strategy in Syria without taking the bait. He plays the game on his terms, makes the moves he chooses at the times he decides to make them.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Suresh S » 01 Sep 2016 03:46

Rudradev I like your analysis

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Bheeshma » 01 Sep 2016 04:28

There has been absolutely no response from Russia. I am sure if this LEMOA was such a big folly like BK is whining about, there would have been some reaction from Moscow.
PS: turds shot down unarmed Su-24 nor 27.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby krishna_krishna » 01 Sep 2016 05:15

Rdevji excellent as usual, few points to add I would add weapons sell to Vietnam as a big ungli too.Also regarding putin he is more of action then talk, if you see stop in getting second akula and or Mi-35 and or Su sales to pak partially funded than you can bet he is upset and that would be end of our relationship with them. Putin knows this he will wait , till the economy improves and see if china behaves more dependable partner than a threat like recently it has supported them and if they do then they would not hesitate to walk away from India. My worries here is they are the most dependable partners historically when it mattered , if massa does show usual colors my fear is this time there would not be any roos to depend on. JMT

But what I do not understand is if you read the text why keep the backdoor open in terms of not including radars and or surveillance devices exclusively excluded.

Why so hurry before this presidents term expires and not wait for the new one ?

What about jaishankars son being in brookings with SSM and peddling cool aid about century changing partnership and what makes you think that it is not sell out of india's interest at highest level ? I understand it is important and beneficial for desh but why such a lose agreement ?

What does US gain , forget about what we get at this point or in future ?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ramana » 01 Sep 2016 05:58

SSM is old hat.


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