Terror Attack At Army Camp In Jammu And Kashmir's Uri

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 19 Sep 2016 15:46

One more soldier dies from injuries. Death toll now 18. - TOI

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 19 Sep 2016 15:52

Such attacks one after the other with no visible retaliation will slowly reinforce the perception that bjp just opens its mouth a bit more than upa. No other qualitative difference between the two.

And as for prepping the public for the costs of war, they have not been able to properly take on the usual suspects within the nation. HM takes barkha on a tour to kashmir and then talks about tough measures while barkha keeps on leaking operational details with impunity. They are giving a sorry account of their resolve to take on their enemies.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 19 Sep 2016 16:03

Singha wrote:within the limits of their financial and soft power, russians have been quite ruthless in defending their vital interests. creaky gear like old BMTC buses is delivering deadly strikes daily in syria.

its india who is the perennial guy who punches way below our weight, completely risk averse and prone to cowering.

imagine a country like vietnam, first scalped the french, then the usa and then china also. HALF the country lay in ruins, huge manpower losses, but they went out there and "did whatever it took" to make it happen.

china also took on usa + UN in korean war and made sure its interests got protected by setting up Noko.

those who have it do it, rest indulge in sophistry like "revenge is a dish best served cold", "retaliation at a time and place of our choosing" and "we will retaliate when immediate crisis is over" or "we need to plan for a 2 front war" sadly, all our enemies are well aware of this.

such a utopian situation is never going to come folks. either fight with whatever we have or accept the fact that our political leadership and the society which elects them are status quoist cowards who will never rock the boat.

+ 100000000000000

1.3 billion people, a huge nation spanning a whole effing subcontinent and not a pair of balls to avenge our men killed in cold blood on OUR land.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 19 Sep 2016 16:04

There should be complete destruction of Pakistan. Many are asking for retaliation to malish their ego's. This is the most stupid thing to do. We must plan complete DESTRUCTION of pakis. F*** no first use. Unless we do complete destruction, there will still be many terror strikes and small wars. One or two retaliations wont help us to achieve anything. This will be waste of time, energy, war machines, economy most importantly our young men in uniform. With every attack, we just start "Analyzing" - timing, motive, intelligence, perimeter etc. etc . It's all waste of national energy.
The truth is we don't plan complete destruction. I am sure even if we start planning complete destruction there will be further "Analyzing" - how to manage the outcome of war, what to do with people, what will be international reaction, what will Iran think, what will china think or may be even what will Fiji think. And the cycle repeats again!

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 19 Sep 2016 16:04

chandrasekaran wrote:...
<snip>
In the meanwhile, India decides to India to diplomatically isolate Pak from all forums http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 406359.cms
...

There muh-tod etc jawab and "strong response" etc thought-thru and given

... back to usual programming.

IB4TL betw.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 19 Sep 2016 16:16

^^ Earning our premier position as the butt of many jokes

https://twitter.com/kkrishna338/status/ ... 0124268544

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 19 Sep 2016 16:44

Seriously, nothing hurts more than an appropriate joke to make the situation clear.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 19 Sep 2016 17:07

What is stopping us for raising the cost for Pakistan, while India can afford the bill lets break Pakistan's back with launching long range artillery/Missile strikes whenever next time LeT and JuM militant leaders are in the border area, followed by massive strikes on terrorist training camps in Indian Kashmir under Pakistan occupation ~~PoK~~.

Along with few days of Naval blockade to Karachi port after the strikes.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 19 Sep 2016 17:41

Close the thread. Nothing will happen. Let's just all focus on more hugging shugging and vikas. Lets develop India more so that when the next terror attack happens, we have even more to lose than the bhooka nanga Pak next door.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 19 Sep 2016 17:43

-Recognise Balochistan
-Send Amphibious forces
-secure an airport (samnguli ?)
-Get into real talks with Altaf Bhai
-Make noise on punjab border
-Baki fauz tied on easter border
-Be ready for massive causality but results will be fantastic
-Do an open air nuclear test in Indian Ocean
- Send serious message to Bakis (using back channel) Pindi and islamabad can be turned to ash within 3 minutes. Clear massage to china that we will defend our interests till end;

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 19 Sep 2016 17:50

+ Explore the possibility of liberating Sindhudesh or Sindh joining India.

Recall that a few years back Zardari was dilly dallying with "Pakistan Khappay and Pakistan na khappay", Jiye Sindh is already there.

Key to liberating Balochistan is to first liberate Sindhudesh.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Sep 2016 18:05

INDIA: PAKISTAN: J&K: The Tragedy of Complacence - Ajit Kumar Singh - South Asia Intelligence Review

J&K: The Tragedy of Complacence

Ajit Kumar Singh
Research Fellow, Institute for Conflict Management

In the worst ever attack in terms of fatalities of Army personnel since terrorism began in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) in 1988, at least 17 Army personnel were killed and another 19 were injured when terrorists stormed the administrative base of one of the units of the Indian Army near the Line of Control (LoC) in the Uri town of Baramulla District at around 5:30 am IST on September 18, 2016. Four terrorists involved in the attack were also killed.

Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Lt. Gen. Ranbir Singh in an official statement on the Uri attack stated,
A group of heavily armed terrorists opened fire on an administrative base of one of the units of Indian Army at Uri in Kashmir at approximately 0530 hours this morning. The firefight between the terrorists and Army personnel continued till approximately 0830 hours, during which four terrorists have been killed. All four killed were foreign terrorists and had some items with them which had Pakistan makings. Initial reports indicate that the slain terrorists belong to Jaish-e-Mohammad [JeM] tanzeem... The terrorists fired incendiary ammunition along with automatic fire of small arms that led to army tents/ temporary shelters catching fire. The tents located in the complex were to house additional troops inducted due to routine turnover of units. There have been a total of 17 Army fatal casualties. Of these, 13-14 casualties have been due to these tents/shelters having caught fire...

On December 5, 2014, Uri had witnessed a similar attack, when a group of heavily armed terrorists had stormed into the Army's 31 Field Regiment Ordinance Camp located at Mohra in the Uri Sector. During the intense operations, one Lieutenant Colonel and seven soldiers of the Army; one Assistant Sub Inspector and two constables of the Jammu and Kashmir Police; were killed. Six terrorists were also killed in the operation.

However, the previous worst attack, in terms of fatalities among Army personnel, had taken place on June 28, 2003, when two fidayeen (suicide squad) terrorists had attacked an Army installation at the Dogra Regiment camp in Sunjwan, on the outskirts of Jammu city, killing 12 soldiers and injuring seven others, including a Lieutenant, before being killed by the troops.

Almost a year earlier, on May 14, 2002, at least 31 persons, including three Army personnel, 18 family members of Army personnel, and 10 civilians, were killed and another 47 persons, including 12 Army personnel, 20 Army family members and 15 civilians were injured, in a terrorist attack targeting an Army Unit at Kaluchak in Jammu District. All the three Pakistani terrorists involved in the attack were also killed in this incident. This is so far the worst ever attack in terms of fatalities targeting an Army facility recorded in the State since 1988.

The worst ever attack involving deaths of Security Force (SF) personnel, was recorded on May 23, 2004, when at least 30 persons, including 19 Border Security Force (BSF) personnel, six women and five children, were killed in an Improvised Explosive Device (IED) explosion at Lower Munda, near Qazigund, on the Srinagar-Jammu highway. The worst ever attack targeting the J&K Police was recorded on March 2, 2001, when 15 police personnel and two civilians were killed in an ambush at Morha Chatru in Rajouri District.

According to partial data compiled by the South Asia Terrorism Portal (SATP), J&K has registered at least 6,250 deaths among SFs since 1988 [data till September 18, 2016]. 64 of these deaths [including September 18, 2016, fatalities] have been recorded in the current year, thus far. This is the highest number of fatalities among SFs recorded in the State during a year since 2010, when this number stood at 69.

Since 1988, J&K has recorded at least 36 attacks targeting the SFs which have resulted in five or more fatalities among SFs. Seven of these attacks (including the September 18, 2016, attack) have resulted in 10 or more fatalities among SFs.

Thus, despite being the worst attack in terms of Army personnel killed in a single attack, the September 18, 2016, attack is not unique and is, indeed, part of a continuous chain of such attacks over the past over two and a half decades. In recent years, these have included the September 26, 2013, attacks at Kathua (six fatalities) and Samba (seven fatalities); the November 27, 2014, Arnia Sector attack (12 fatalities); the December 5, 2014, Uri Sector attack (17 fatalities); the March 20, 2015, Kathua attack (seven fatalities); and the August 5, 2015, Udhampur attack (three fatalities). Further, the attacks at the Dinanagar Police Station
on July 27, 2015 and the Pathankot Airbase
on January 2, 2016, both in the neighbouring state of Punjab, were part of the same stream.

Unfortunately, the Indian security and political establishment continues to fail to learn from past mistakes, despite the long history of sustained Pakistani malfeasance in J&K and its efforts to take terrorism beyond this State.

The political responses to the latest outrage in Uri remain trapped in boastful absurdities and pat formulae referring to 'dastardly deeds', 'cowardly attacks' and promises of a 'befitting reply'. Within this farcical paradigm the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi stated, perhaps appropriately, in a Tweet, underlining the frivolity of approach, "We strongly condemn the cowardly terror attack in Uri. I assure the nation that those behind this despicable attack will not go unpunished." Similarly, Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh in a series of tweets said, "Pakistan is a terrorist state and it should be identified and isolated as such... I am deeply disappointed with Pakistan's continued and direct support to terrorism and terrorist groups."

On the other hand, as in the wake of past major terrorist attacks by Pakistan backed terrorism, a virtual Tsunami of jingoism has been unleashed, with "experts", including a battery of retired Generals, baying for 'surgical strikes', 'overwhelming responses' and, exacting, for a "single tooth, the whole jaw". No effort is made to reconcile any of this with an assessment of capacities or capabilities; or with the dynamic of retaliatory responses that would then be triggered. Nor is there any appreciation of the fact that, in seventy years of hostility and over three decades of Pakistani support terrorism, India is yet to evolve any strategy or policy consensus on how it is to deal with Islamabad and its terrorist proxies. In the absence of a strategy of sustainable response, all talk of retaliatory strikes is mere posturing, a strutting and fretting that will produce little or nothing.

The Uri attack has exposed India's vulnerabilities once again, as it has clear evidence of negligence and complacency. After the Pathankot Air Force Base attack, the Government at the highest level had promised that there would be a comprehensive review of security at military establishments across the country. The fact that obvious vulnerabilities in as sensitive a location as Uri, have remained unaddressed indicates that this is another of the Government's broken promises.

The loss of life in the Uri attack is tragic and is a blow to the Army's prestige and morale. But it is another opportunity for the system to address the endemic policy lacunae that have left us so completely susceptible to the machinations of Pakistan's intelligence apparatus and its proxies. The more than two months of orchestrated street violence that have afflicted the Kashmir Valley, since the death of terrorist 'commander' Burhan Wani on July 8, 2016, demonstrate another dimension of the loss of control and the lack of policy direction, even as Pakistan uses every avenue of escalation available. Significantly, Union Minister of State in the Ministry Of Home Affairs Hansraj Gangaram Ahir informed the Rajya Sabha on July 27, 2016, that there had been 90 attempts of infiltration recorded from across the border in J&K (till June 30, 2016) in which 54 terrorists succeeded in infiltrating into Indian territory, adding to the 121 such attempts in 2015, with 33 terrorists succeeding in their objective to move into the State.

Tremendous gains

in J&K, secured at great cost in lives by the SFs over decades, are being frittered away by a careless and short sighted political leaderships, both at the Centre and in the States. Instead of evolving a sustainable approach and policy to the challenge of Pakistan backed terrorism and the management of domestic dissent in J&K, these leaderships have chosen a fractious and polarizing politics, appealing to their own divided constituencies, for short term electoral gains. This has destabilized J&K, instead of consolidating the relative peace that has been recovered in the State.

Declining trends in terrorist violence also appear to have resulted in a measure of complacency within the security establishment, and there are several instances of a failure to act on actionable intelligence provided by intelligence agencies to the SFs, resulting in several successful terrorist attacks, including the latest incident at Uri.

India has established a long tradition of transforming SF successes into political failures, and this appears to be the ongoing trend in J&K. With the utter incoherence, confusion and jingoism presently afflicting the country's Pakistan and Kashmir policy, there appears to be little hope of any radical shift in the present and disastrous trajectory of events. Unless a measure of political sagacity is restored, things can only get worse in the near term.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 19 Sep 2016 18:21

^^
It's sad that with every such attack we first blame security/then soldiers for not being prepared. Answer is we cannot be prepared all the time and these field locations must turn into peace locations.

Why we have field locations in India even after close to 100 years of independence?

Until or unless we Indians are ready to take an action with consequences, and some cost, we will keep on seeing these attacks. But we Indians are scared that such actions are not worth our daily comfortable lifestyle and the high cost associated with it.

Why not an overt action, instead of a covert action that everyone seems to suggest. That itself tells a lot about our state of mentality, because we are risk averse.

All these liberal media prestitues must raise this hard question, is this country ready to sacrifice to protect its future?

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 19 Sep 2016 18:27

Singha wrote:within the limits of their financial and soft power, russians have been quite ruthless in defending their vital interests. creaky gear like old BMTC buses is delivering deadly strikes daily in syria.

its india who is the perennial guy who punches way below our weight, completely risk averse and prone to cowering.

imagine a country like vietnam, first scalped the french, then the usa and then china also. HALF the country lay in ruins, huge manpower losses, but they went out there and "did whatever it took" to make it happen.

china also took on usa + UN in korean war and made sure its interests got protected by setting up Noko.

those who have it do it, rest indulge in sophistry like "revenge is a dish best served cold", "retaliation at a time and place of our choosing" and "we will retaliate when immediate crisis is over" or "we need to plan for a 2 front war" sadly, all our enemies are well aware of this.

such a utopian situation is never going to come folks. either fight with whatever we have or accept the fact that our political leadership and the society which elects them are status quoist cowards who will never rock the boat.

That is pretty much my viewpoint as well.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 19 Sep 2016 18:50

let us wait. When the Manipur incident happened, Govt took action after almost a week. Let us give it 10 days. After that if kadi ninda has given way to kadi se kadi ninda, we can stop political discussion. If that happens, it will be another VP Singh moment.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 19 Sep 2016 19:17

We will respond to Uri attack 'at a time and place of our choosing': Army
Not sure to take it seriously or laugh.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Sep 2016 19:25

kindly use this thread to discuss only this attack and NOT Indo-pak relations, terror attack responses etc. there are other threads for that.
else thread will be locked.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 19 Sep 2016 19:27

Sid wrote:^^
It's sad that with every such attack we first blame security/then soldiers for not being prepared. Answer is we cannot be prepared all the time and these field locations must turn into peace locations.

Why we have field locations in India even after close to 100 years of independence?

Until or unless we Indians are ready to take an action with consequences, and some cost, we will keep on seeing these attacks. But we Indians are scared that such actions are not worth our daily comfortable lifestyle and the high cost associated with it.

Why not an overt action, instead of a covert action that everyone seems to suggest. That itself tells a lot about our state of mentality, because we are risk averse.

All these liberal media prestitues must raise this hard question, is this country ready to sacrifice to protect its future?

Because Pakistan has hit us covertly, we should also hit them covertly. It's not aar paar ki ladaayi yet.

I was conversing with a manager today in an MNC, in between checking brf, he asked me what is the news? I said there is tense situation in J&K because our jawans died, his immediate response was, I also go and fight. Then I told him that it was a terrorist attack. His response was, I want to fight at the borders if I can kill the Pakistanis, I can at least serve my country instead of all these tensions, but if it's not war yet, then I trust Modi he will not spare those b******s. That's a common man's view. He doesn't have time to follow the news.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 19 Sep 2016 19:48

GAURAV C SAWANT ‏@gauravcsawant 4h4 hours ago

Declare Pakistan a State Sponsor of Terror (Govt sources tell me they are debating issue. @PMOIndia to decide). Breaking on @IndiaToday

As many have suggested, this should be followed by abrogating IWT.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 19 Sep 2016 19:53

Uri attack: India to declare Pakistan state sponsor of terror, may launch punitive strikes

Based on Prime Minister Narendra Modi's instructions, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, NSA Ajit Doval and Army chief Gen Dalbir Singh sat down together in South Block to discuss the ground operations that can be launched by the Army Special Forces.Highly placed sources in the national security apparatus confirmed that very soon results on ground would be seen and felt but no loud announcements would be made.
Sources indicated that the operations have already begun as three ISI officers were hacked to death in Peshawar by an unknown local group there.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Sep 2016 20:07

Modi has many irons in the fire internationally and a knee jerk reaction is not desired. Tit for tat MUST happen but after considering all factors so that an appropriate response can be formulated that can protect the gains of the past 2 years diplomacy.

What ever be the response it has to deliver such a punch that the Baksi should really feel the pain along with their terrorist army. Till the punch is delivered it does not matter to me if there is a delay of a few week or perhaps a month of two.

It does not matter if it is overt or covert. The Bakis must get it, the Baki army must get it, rest of our neighbors must get it and the P5 members must get it i.e is to say that it must be a *slap* that is heard across the world.

It will also serve as a strong message to the Chinees on CPEC and the futility of their future investments in the Bakiland. This must be used as an opportunity to set the expectations right across the board.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 19 Sep 2016 20:08

PM goes to Rashtrapati Bhawan (as per Indi today). Very unusual move.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2016 20:13

Someone posted in twitter a video of Russell Peters that I too saw some time back. He uses comedy to convey the message.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 19 Sep 2016 20:37

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 19 Sep 2016 20:39

This is actually not a bad time to strike Pakistan. Come to think of it, while the world is engrossed in watching the failing ceasefire in Syria, punitive action across LOC can never have a better timing.

This could be our mini 1962 moment, like PRC did then.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 19 Sep 2016 20:42

It took 2-3 days after NSCN attack for the army to gather intelligence and start the counter action. So let's give the rudaali some rest and wait and see for some time.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2016 20:49

Paul wrote:It took 2-3 days after NSCN attack for the army to gather intelligence and start the counter action. So let's give the rudaali some rest and wait and see for some time.

Rudali? Do you really think IA will gather intelligence in 2 3 days AFTER a terrorist strike in J&K ?

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 19 Sep 2016 20:56

"Wait for some time".

Ok.

Not that we have a choice, and yes it is the mature response.

But I wonder where else I've heard that phrase before.

And I wonder if it means "wait until you forget".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Sep 2016 21:02

Singha wrote:the first pig could have been hit by a BMPs cannon shell - it explodes rather than passes clean like a inert bullet.
the bmp cannon will puncture through brick walls for sure.

i have heard the banned(?) 'dum dum' bullets also tend to funnel out after ingress and leave a massive exit wound. not sure we ever used them

GD,
When you don't know why speculate? IA does not use Dum Dum bullets which are banned by Geneva Convention. Don't repeat this please.
Thanks,
ramana

habal · Post by **habal** » 19 Sep 2016 21:15

With Modi at helm, I am not as despondent as I was during UPAwasis. Since it is TSPA that has put him in a spot and not vice versa, they will bear full responsibility for just desserts if any.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Sep 2016 21:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orOHD9mXzVg

6:00 onwards. There was specific intel about possible attack on bases near LoC. Total 3 groups sent from PoJK. One neutralized in Punch few days ago. Second attacked Uri. Third group expected to attack somewhere near Srinagar on some soft target. All bases near LoC including Uri got specific warning about such attack.

IIRC, even Lt Gen Ata Hasnain has tweeted something like this that specific warning was given to Uri base like 10 days ago.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 19 Sep 2016 21:38

How about the heads of JUD, JEM and HM. All on a single day meeting their hooris. That should establish our ability to strike at will like CIA does

habal · Post by **habal** » 19 Sep 2016 21:43

this term 'intelligence alert' can be very misleading. Anyone who works in security agencies will tell you that faxes and telexes are full of 'security alerts' and though many tend to be genuine, there is only so much one can do because many a time the origin of many of these messages lie in cover the backsides of various responsible officials/agencies. mainly a blame shifting exercise. In case of any eventuality, everyone points fingers at others and say that 'hey we warned you'.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Sep 2016 21:51

^^ Agreed. Plus the attack happened during handover and major causalities were due to fire. I am not whining. And other takeaway from that video is a 3rd team of terrorists is still at large.

But yes, we need to improve on the intel data analysis in general. Of coarse right now its not time for introspection its time for Action and full support to IA rather than finger pointing.

I salute Indian Army that it remains within its bounds despite paying heavy price in blood so many times, it has always refrained from doing anything without proper government approval, however idiotic and incompetent the govt of the day might have been. You know when we look any other organisation in India, we will never find one more professional than our forces. Sadly our government never stands behind them properly. Its saddens me to see IA getting disappointed from the nation always which never allows them to properly avenge their lost mates at the very least. We need to cut them slack and just trust their acumen.

williams · Post by **williams** » 19 Sep 2016 22:01

Do we have intelligence on the leadership in PA who is managing these Abduls? We need to kill them period. That and destroying some of the larger military assets is the only way to punish. No point in bombing the Abdul camps.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Sep 2016 22:02

That would be some colonel level officer in ISID

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Sep 2016 22:10

A few options to consider:

1) With standoff weapons, attack location(s) where PLA and Chinese workers are barracked in POJK/NA. Beijing denies to India that these people are there anyway, so they cannot very well protest if we turn them into dim sum. Pain will be felt all the way up the ladder... TSPA's ability to protect Chinese personnel working in CPEC will be exposed as nonexistent. China will have to reconsider the risks of further investment in CPEC very gravely.

2) Can IN use standoff weapons to precisely target PA bases involved in Baluchistan genocide ops, launched from our assets in the Arabian Sea? Not sure if this technical capacity is there. It would not only even the score by shaeed-ing a platoon or so of TSPA personnel but give the Baloch insurgency a shot in the arm, boosting morale with the knowledge that India will bring the big guns into play on their behalf.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 19 Sep 2016 22:15

ashish raval wrote:How about the heads of JUD, JEM and HM. All on a single day meeting their hooris. That should establish our ability to strike at will like CIA does

We can outsource (in a time bound manner) to our new friend and see what they do.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Sep 2016 22:20

Lets turn this calamity into an opportunity by really going after CPEC in earnest no expense spared.

This will kill 3 birds with one stone. Bak army personal guarding the chinki (Principal + Interest), Baki army prestige (Its staked it reputation on this project) and the chinki plan on gwadar. The project has been hyped up to the sky among the mangos so its cancellation will also deliver a big blow to their egos.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Sep 2016 22:31

Don't talk of unilateral abrogation of the IWT and I wonder if that is even possible. And I don't think we have the capacity to transfer water out of the Indus basin. So apart from verbal kalabazi what will it achieve?

We must encourage the Sindhi to demand their fair share of the Indus water and stop the *massive* loot of its share by the Pakjabis. Something similar in KP.

That is to say, There can be no victory greater than isolating the Pakjabis within Bakistan and see the pakjab army lash out at the rest. That will prepare the *right* circumstance for a future "ek dhakka aur do".