LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Karan M
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 20:13

abhik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Saar I am naive on this issue, so I have to ask. Do the forces not report to the Govt in power? Who is the boss here? I realise that there is an acute shortage of fighter aircraft. But like ranjan.rao said we are not going to war tomorrow. Can the air force not be told that Tejas it is, warts and all.

The air force will induct as many LCAs as the government will buy. The idea that the government will have to spend political capital to push through LCA is complete BS. Will the IAF personnel who are today operating Mig-21/27s go on dharna because they are getting SDRE LCAs instead of TFTA f-16/Gripens? The only people who will make noise will be the usual suspects.


Before doing your own BS'ing, think a bit about why 120 LCA are on order and not 400 & how much effort it took the GOI to come to this point.
IAF personnel take what AHQ agrees on with GOI. AHQ goes by what its planners suggest, and that has been MMRCA. Learn to understand the reality as uncomfortable as it is, before engaging in trash talking.
Everyone here wants more LCA, but getting the IAF onboard with the program is not as easy as pounding on the keyboard and yelling that it be done. Mk1A progress also needs to be tracked & moved ahead, that's still five years from now.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2016 20:22

I think too many of us miss one important fact. The Armed Forces as as much a part of government as the netas we elect. In fact the netas are temporary and the real permanent government employees are the babus and armed forces (and railway staff etc). The armed forces are not against the government or government against the armed forces. They are both "government" - limbs of the same system They depend on each other in a system that works, although it does not always work that smoothly.

The armed forces can be ordered to take Tejas and HAL (also government) can be ordered to deliver Tejas. Things like this have been done in government for many years - but in a different context. For example when i was a young man a friend of mine did his 5 year MBBS, then 3 years of MS in surgery followed by 2 more years becoming a super-specialist in neuro surgery. This man would have been in his element treating head injuries and brain/neurological issues. If Allah had willed it he would have joined a short service commission and have been given appropriate placement in a military hospital. Instead this man did a UPSC exam and got posted as a medical officer in a rural village with an annual budget that provided every single person of that population a total of ten Aspirin tablets a year and nothing else. He was a government employee and was sick and frustrated "up to here". So here the "Government is ordering a government servant to manage with what they provide him. This is not what we want the armed forces to face. Like my neurosurgeon friend they are "specialists" and need certain tools for their job and must be consulted and not ordered to manage. Ideally
Last edited by shiv on 15 Oct 2016 20:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2016 20:24

Like I said earlier for both LCA and Rafale, they could think about radar panels and refueling probe design ahead of nose design to accommodate the required T/Rs and retractables

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Oct 2016 20:31

Bhaskar_T wrote:Not sure if this video was posted here. This is the "Walk the Talk" by Shekhar Gupta with ADA director CD Balaji and scientist Girish Deodhare (Chief who has led control laws). The video is obviously for abduls but I like the confidence and enthusiasm which these people have in Tejas.

Balaji explains that it has 6 weapon stations (3 on each side), 1 centre-line station (BVR missile, fuel carrier tanks) and one laser-sighter. He goes on to say that tandem pylon bomb testing has been effectively tested in Jaisalmer, i.e. (2 X 1,000 pound bomb on 2 stations. Total 4,000 pound bomb drop)

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/walk-the-talk/walk-the-talk-with-team-tejas-434144?vod-related


This bit caught my attention during the video as well...Not a common sight to have a single bvr missile on the center line, seems like a waste of space...perhaps a multiple missile rack?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 20:31

Shiv, exactly. And the present Govt is fighting a war on multiple fronts & many in the MSM are very eager to always trot out theories it being anti-military even if it does something right. They are itching for a chance. Right now we are in consolidation phase. I do believe that if Parrikar keeps focus on the LCA, with an ex forces guy heading ADA, ex R&D guy heading HAL & now an ACM heading AF who has flown the LCA - and 120 units on indent, we are better placed than before. Is it super amazing, and best ever? No. But steady progress, from a fighter which would never fly, to one which did, which never met IAF needs to one which is, one which can't be made, to one which is being made.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 20:42

This is quid pro quo for something else. Placate France, order 36 Rafales + then order 90 Block 70s, so America gets a slice of the pie as well. Something has been promised to India in return. Only time will tell.

But this is going to play out like the MMRCA saga. RFP will be issued. Then six years later, our super efficient babus will decide to do trials. Then a down select will happen three years later. Then negotiations will begin with the newly-crowned prom queen, which will take five years, after which an agreement will be signed, which will determine when the first aircraft will arrive (which will be in three years) and then the order will be completed in six years. Where did I get these dates from?

2001 - IAF projects a requirements for 126 aircraft and issues RFI
28 Aug 2007 - IAF issues RFP to the six competitors
27 April 2011 - IAF down selects the Typhoon & Rafale
31 Jan 2012 - IAF selects the Rafale as the future MMRCA
23 Sept 2016 - MoD signs agreement with Dassault for 36 Rafales.
2019 - The first of 36 Rafales will join the IAF.
2022 - The last of 36 Rafales will join the IAF.

21 years...that how long that saga took. Let's say we condense that down to 10 years (I am sorry, but I don't see our Babus working any faster). And remember, these aircraft have to be made in India (i.e. screwdrivergiri). Now the HAL Chief has said - in the video - from 2017 production is being ramped to 16 aircraft per year. That is one almost entire squadron i.e. 18 aircraft per squadron in the IAF - give or take. The IAF has committed to 120 Tejas. We can have almost two additional squadrons in 10 years by the production schedule that Chief Raju mentioned. And I am sure in 10 years time, HAL can produce more than 16 aircraft per year. But we will do this ass backwards onlee and waste money.

And this is just ONE production line. We will waste money - to build a new production line - for phoren single engine fighters. But we have NO money to build a SECOND production line for the Tejas. WOW!!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2016 20:46

CM ji, why it is a waste? how about a multi-purpose central line

- Future BrahMos /slim version
- Multiple racks
- Add your own pod

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 20:49

Rakesh

This is quid pro quo for something else. Placate France, order 36 Rafales + then order 90 Block 70s, so America gets a slice of the pie as well. Something has been promised to India in return. Only time will tell.


You may have hit the nail on the head. Modi has been using military sales as a very public policy/PR outreach effort with various countries and deals are signed as quid pro quos. F-16 may be chosen over Saab for that very point.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 20:53

Karan: I think this decision happened in early 2015 when Modi-ji called Parrikar to his office and told him that we are buying only 36 Rafales which surprised even Parrikar. The PM has been promised something big. Maybe we are getting a permanent UN Security Council Seat. This offer might have been made to MMS as well, but he could not do anything without permission from his madam. The US had to wait it out for a few years (2011 to 2014) before they could do the same with PM Modi.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2016 20:57

We must understand that the Air Force too consists of a bunch of individuals who work as a team. they do not allow their individual opinions to mar their work as a team and if they spend their lives doing something and doing it well they are all justifiably proud of what they did and how they did amazing things under less than the most favourable conditions.

So if you leave out test pilots and you take a bunch of pilots who spend their years flying Mirage 2000s - they are all praise and will always reminisce how their sqn beat the crap out of others in some competition or other. I have read such stories from ALL pilots - Su-7. Gnat, Mirage , MiG 29, MKI HF-24 or MiG 21. Of course it helps that I own the books that were published by pilots reminiscing about some of these things at the 50th year gathering of MiG 21 or Gnat or Marut.

The point I wish to make is that when I was a boy my cousin late Wg Cdr retd) Suresh (VrC) was my hero - but with the passage of years I am better able to understand certain viewpoints he had. For example he, like Tipnis and others swore by the MiG 21. He genuinely believed that he could kick anyone's ass when he was in a MiG 21 cockpit. But the same attitude is true for all pilots in their machines - I have heard gloating stories about a Gnat pilot taking a bet with a Hunter pilot and then waiting for Hunters to take off, then having a cup of tea and then taking off and greeting the Hunters at 5000 feet before they got there. In teh same way Marut pilots were all praise for the good points of the Marut.

We have to give the IAF a chance to fly the Tejas to get to know its strong points. Test pilots are not morons and when they say it flies like a dream that is what it means. Those who have read stories of fighter manoeuvring of the IAF will know what a heavy workload pilots had in the old days - watching out for all sorts of dangers - G forces, stalling, losing altitude, managing fuel, watching engine parameters, arming munitions, aiming them, dropping tanks. A fighter that does much of this for the pilot leaves him free to do the job he needs to do. I note the point that so far only 2 air force pilots are flying the LCA apart from 16 test pilots. So we have a way to go yet

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 21:02

Super post Shiv. And one which keeps the spirits up.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 21:04

Regarding Mk1A - here is confirmation from MOD deposition to Parl committee.

With regard to depleting squadron strength, the Ministry of Defence intimated the
Committee as follows:
"Actually, nobody is dispute the need for enhancement of the number of squadrons. It
has to be done. We have currently 33 squadrons and there is a dire need to replace
the MIG 21 aircraft which is nearly obsolete and there is going to be depletion. It is not
that we are not alive to this problem. Long term thinking has already started on this
and some actions have already been taken. In order to replace the MIG 21 depletion
problem, we have already given additional orders for LCA. This is something which
has already been done. Earlier, only 40 aircrafts were to be manufactured in the initial
operational clearance and FOC format. Now we have decided that on a fast track,
another 80 aircrafts will also be produced by HAL. A commitment has already been
given. This is a huge change from what we were doing earlier.


So 120 confirmed orders.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 21:11

With 120 LCA, 36 Rafale, 90 whatever MII-2, 144 FGFA signed up per plan - that's some 20 squadrons. The screw up is plain and simple the MMRCA delay, and now the split. There will be a delay there for sure, so the IAF will have a period where retirals are faster than inductions. FGFA is not coming anytime fast as well.

There lies the oppty for LCA and HAL. If they deliver on MK1 well, and demonstrate solid progress on Mk1, more orders for Mk1A could follow.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Arjunn » 15 Oct 2016 21:17

Rakesh wrote:Exactly! Just double the Rafale order and end this tamasha of another 90 single engine aircraft. It is amazing...whine and complain that there is no money to fund the LCA or order extra Rafales. But another new phoren toy and money just magically appears.


It is politics that is derailing our defense acquisitions, in particular the way our own Tejas is being systematically shunted out in favour of foreign maal.

We have a dirty political system that runs on corruption and nepotism. Everything the politicians and their babus touch, particularly those in the MOD, (have no doubt about that, these babus are dirty sewer rats that do the dirty work to facilitate easy loot for our politicians), starts to wilt and die. We Indians still fail to understand that the people who run the system now and in the past (the top dogs) are first-rate criminals whose every action is to facilitate monetary gain for themselves, their associates and their political party. Our country and its welfare doesn't count for these people.

Our defense acquisitions are just money making engines for our dear politicians and their associate babus. The more the deals, the merrier, as they end up raking in the moolah by the tonne on every deal. Hell...who cares if it creates logistic nightmares for our air force...as we are witnessing now...an entire supply chain, BRD and huge resources will have to be diverted for a paltry 36 Rafales, and when this nightmare has barely settled down, now we are witnessing how deep and unquenchable our political masters' greed is with their new found craze for "single engined fighter" to induct yet another phoren fighter when we can induct huge numbers of Tejas at a fraction of the cost to the exchequer.

P.S.- At this moment in time, politics and the IAF are deeply linked. It is the greed of our politicians that has made our country the worlds biggest importer of arms, as arms deals are a lucrative income source for them, and the IAF is bearing the brunt of political greed right at this moment in time. So, I would request the moderator to kindly desist from deleting this post citing political content, as has been done with multiple previous posts of mine.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 21:37

Yeah sure, IAF doesn't want MMRCA. All due to greedy politicians, "now". LOL.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 21:47

The more I think about it, I believe it is the Permanent UN Security Council seat. India joining the MTCR club, attempts to join the NSG club (only a matter of time before China realizes it is in its best interests to deal with a resurgent India rather then rely on Randistan) all point to that. I could care less about politics, but for this to come to fruition, Modi will have to win in 2019. Second term baby! :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 22:15

^^ More mithai then admiral.
BTW, doesn't your offer double if India signs up for a 2nd Akula. :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 22:30

LOL :) Since INS Chakra (8,140 tons) is not Akula 2 (13,400 tons), I will not distribute any mithai. If we get Virgina Class (7,800 tons) boats, I will distribute mithai then :D

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 22:37

Dileep wrote:It was LSP-08 that is getting the IFR probe. It is the plane I went up close to see the wiring loom routing. The probe was not there when I saw it.

And yes, there is automatic recovery if you manage to spin/stall the plane. I did that during my simulator flight. Forgot to retract landing gear and tried to pull up too much. Stall warning came up on HUD, and message of Automatic Recovery came on HUD. The stick and rudder went unresponsive, and the plane went to level flight. Then stick control came back.

Another thing I noticed is that the rudder doesn't seem to do much when you make a turn by stick. But it makes yaw movement in level flight. The plane makes perfect turns by stick alone.

What I don't know is whether the simulator was in a 'newbie mode' or not. My previous experience is only flying fsgear on a PC using keyboard.


In basic flying only take Off and landing are challenging. To be clearer it is landing that is more challenging. The straight and level flying, turns etc are pretty much intuitive. Keeping constant rate of turns, not losing/ gaining height when not required needs attention.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 22:38

Karan M wrote:...
Well my point was that BJP really cannot "shove" things down the services decision making chain just like that, when many things are happening in parallel. OROP agitation + media people hue & cry + reports of riding rough shod over services decision making = bad perception through rank and file in wider chain esp. those who are not aware of nitty gritties of issue.

You'd remember the coordinated media attack on obsolete LCA at time of announcement of its selection. IMHO, it started even confusing rtd folks who started wondering why this was being done, without consulting IAF etc. It was a deliberate attempt to sabotage Parrikar/GOIs significant achievement in pushing the LCA through for 120 aircraft, something which UPA crooks couldn't or wouldn't do.

At end of day, civilian govt is paramount, agreed, but personally, a soft touch is preferable & cooperation vs mere top down decision making (though sometimes, like with LCA that may be necessary). There is a propaganda war out there, and IMHO BJP led GOI is fighting on multiple fronts.

I just posted how some $50Bn of orders have been placed. How little of that has been reported by media, if any? Instead, constant complaints of how nothing has been done or orders placed. IMHO, this is deliberate because the ones who benefit from "quick fixes" are really the arms dalals not the forces, who'd rather get something that works than a quick solution which doesn't (which is why we have the huge summer-winter-etc trials process). Yet, the forces rank and file are sought to be convinced nothing has changed (via media PR) and a case is made for quick imports. And at the same time, talk of how its the indigenous programs which are "holding up national security".

You'd recall the stratpost "discussion" where several folks were lambasting LCA etc for holding up plans while of course, the Rafale was the ideal solution. Not one person actually went into the cost differential/strategic aspects or what had been achieved in entirety. The media is complicit, so are certain vested interests and the whole issue has over the years become a minefield, where honest intentioned, blunt spoken people like Parrikar et al will be trapped & their words twisted to maintain an anti-forces image.


Good points Karan.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Oct 2016 23:15

Karan M wrote:With 120 LCA, 36 Rafale, 90 whatever MII-2, 144 FGFA signed up per plan - that's some 20 squadrons. The screw up is plain and simple the MMRCA delay, and now the split. There will be a delay there for sure, so the IAF will have a period where retirals are faster than inductions.

There lies the oppty for LCA and HAL. If they deliver on MK1 well, and demonstrate solid progress on Mk1, more orders for Mk1A could follow.



Could follow ? They 100 pct will if HAL delivers. I have not a shadow of a doubt on that. Given Pam lack of depth a good relative inexpensive reliable air craft with a 300-400 km combat radius will do the job. F16 adds very little - Ajay Ahuja had demonstrated that in his analysis - Texas beats it or equals it in most regimes. There was one regime where F16 dominated. It probably has more range - how much ? 100 km more in radius ? But we have au 30s for deep strike and Jags so that should cover it. In air defence and escort role I would imagine Tejas can hold its own as it's a Hi Hi Hi regime and doesn't need more that 200 km radius but needs time on station. And it has that for PaK. F16 black 70 or whatever may have better avionics but we can always upgrade avionics on tejas. We are masters at amalgamation.

If HAL can deliver I would be very surprised that F16 comes in. Sab has even less chance. It's all about production now. Don't be surprised if pvt sector Texas line comes up

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Oct 2016 23:16

Karan M wrote:With 120 LCA, 36 Rafale, 90 whatever MII-2, 144 FGFA signed up per plan - that's some 20 squadrons. The screw up is plain and simple the MMRCA delay, and now the split. There will be a delay there for sure, so the IAF will have a period where retirals are faster than inductions.

There lies the oppty for LCA and HAL. If they deliver on MK1 well, and demonstrate solid progress on Mk1, more orders for Mk1A could follow.



Could follow ? They 100 pct will if HAL delivers. I have not a shadow of a doubt on that. Given Pam lack of depth a good relative inexpensive reliable air craft with a 300-400 km combat radius will do the job. F16 adds very little - Ajay Ahuja had demonstrated that in his analysis - Texas beats it or equals it in most regimes. There was one regime where F16 dominated. It probably has more range - how much ? 100 km more in radius ? But we have au 30s for deep strike and Jags so that should cover it. In air defence and escort role I would imagine Tejas can hold its own as it's a Hi Hi Hi regime and doesn't need more that 200 km radius but needs time on station. And it has that for PaK. F16 black 70 or whatever may have better avionics but we can always upgrade avionics on tejas. We are masters at amalgamation.

If HAL can deliver I would be very surprised that F16 comes in. Sab has even less chance. It's all about production now. Don't be surprised if pvt sector Texas line comes up

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashbhee » 15 Oct 2016 23:49

Even India signs a deal for F16 or Graphin line next month, when do you all think the aircraft will roll out of assembly line?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby rakall » 16 Oct 2016 00:02

Here is what intrigued me in the WalkTheTalk at HAL.. when Coupta asked Air.Cmde.Muthanna about integrating Meteor BVRAAM, he said LCA can't carry meteor as it is too heavy.. But why?

The innermost pylons (station numbers 1 & 2) are qualified for 1000lt drop tanks, BVRAAM, Bombs & LGBs. In the WalkTheTalk at HAL we r told the innermost pylons used a tandem pylon to drop 2*1000Lb bombs (weight equal to 1000lt drop tank). so when innermost pylons can carry 1000Kg load each, and also able to fire AAMs why cant we put a Meteor BVRAAM (only 185Kgs) there?

Surely it is possible!!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby rakall » 16 Oct 2016 00:05

ashbhee wrote:Even India signs a deal for F16 or Graphin line next month, when do you all think the aircraft will roll out of assembly line?


3years if we deal for some initial numbers (30-40) coming from porduction line in US/Sweden. Next 80 or so coming from Indian production line.

About 5years if deal is such that production line be setup in India, and then all 100-120 roll out of Indian production line.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 16 Oct 2016 01:37

Bhaskar_T wrote:Tejas - LCA fb webpage says, SP4 is schedule to be delivered in Dec 2016. Do not know how authentic is the word from the page. It would be an awesome start for HAL to deliver 3 SP's this year in 2016.


They are about as reliable as they get when it comes to information on the Tejas. Whoever runs that page is in some way linked to the program or has sources in the program. So it is good news if SP4 is to be delivered by 2016 itself. HAL would've met their goal for the year then.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby suryag » 16 Oct 2016 03:29

As tejas picks up production am expecting that mid next year there will be a tejas vs mig21 or m2k and some negatives would be selectively leaked to show that we need the teen or gripes and we will have the press go "after 30 years ....

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Avarachan » 16 Oct 2016 05:50

The Tejas Mark 2 is being used as a bargaining chip. Several thoughts come to my mind.

1) First, something personal: a feeling of deep sadness. So much sacrifice, so much effort--to be treated like this? Yes, I'm aware of the Mark 1 orders. But the goal for the Tejas program has always been 300-400+ units. It'll take a production run that large to build a serious industrial ecosystem for Indian military aviation.

2) I mean no offense, but the idea that India will get a permanent UNSC seat by giving up the Tejas Mark 2 is absurd. I wonder what Shri Kalam would say if he were alive to see this. "Strength respects strength, not weakness." It's not an accident that all of the P-5 are significant military exporters. If India wants to be a member of the P-5, India has to have similar capacities. There is no other way. Have you noticed that the Gripen/F-16 supporters are saying that India can export 100 of their units? By some amazing coincidence, that's exactly the estimated size of the Tejas's export potential!

3) Sooner or later, India has to stand and defend its treasure. The Empire of Death is falling apart, and India is rising. Sooner or later, the fact that the trend lines have crossed will be obvious to the whole world. The Indian government will have to choose: appease the monster, or allow Indian citizens to flourish to their utmost potential. All of MMS's bowing and scraping did not prevent the Empire from executing 26/11. I wonder when PM Modi will realize that all of his awkward hugs haven't bought him--or India--very much.

4) One significant reason why PM Modi was able to slap Pakistan recently was because of Agony Trishul. Every major country in the world knows its true range. Many people on BRF don't like AKA, but he had the courage to operationalize it. Where would India be today if he had buckled under pressure? After 26/11, AKA threatened to resign if MMS kept on blocking the development of Agony Punch. Does PM Modi have that kind of courage? I hope so. Pakistan is simply a cat's paw. The real challenge will be in dealing with the cat.

5) It is the right of the Indian people to question the negotiation tactics of the Indian government. I think most Indians today would question the return of the Haji Pir Pass to Pakistan in 1965.

I just hope all this talk of a second MMRCA is a ruse and that PM Modi won't proceed with it.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2016 06:07

Avarachan, welcome back.

I can only speak for myself, but with the 120 LCA order confirmed, I at least now have hope of the LCA being in service.
My perception FWIW, of AKA is "good man in the wrong place", a decent patriot who because of circumstance was surrounded by folks who sought to use the MOD as their personal tax collection service. One of the key decisions or boondoggles this GOI inherited (and has done no better with TBH) is the Rafale deal. I wouldn't be surprised if he even hinted to his successor to be careful of certain deals.
Coming back to the LCA, AKA ensured the project remained alive, it trundled along when he was there. Unfortunately, that's exactly the case with most of our programs. Credit to him, he kept them going, but many remained zombies, with the day to day challenge piling up.
And a Naval chief resigned, falling on the sword, because AKA decided the best way out, was inaction and gave up on ordering many key items. That too is a legacy. So, perhaps if AKA had been in a better Govt, he would have done far more. His stint in the MOD was probably not what he wanted either. Shadows in every corner.
For now, I will just hope LCA Mk1A turns the corner and this Govt shows some sagacity and sanctions a Mk2 and convinces the IAF to lend its weight to that program.
PM Modi's awkward hugs (LOL, accurate description that) - IMHO have a very basic reason. He is showing world leaders he is a real person as versus the cartoon caricature our MSM made him out to be, a yindoo nationalist who just wanted to murder people and was the next "insert lurid text of some old european murderer". By striking up that rapport, he has brought India space, and also put it back up on the FDI, bijness radar. He is doing what the PRC did in the 80's of making the PRC the place to be. Of course, simply subordinating our sovereignty shouldn't be de jure either and we have to be careful. But the muted response to the counter Uri strike shows the awkward hugs do have an effect, even on the India phobic sections of the deep state which didn't do the usual equal perps propaganda.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 16 Oct 2016 06:56

rakall wrote:Here is what intrigued me in the WalkTheTalk at HAL.. when Coupta asked Air.Cmde.Muthanna about integrating Meteor BVRAAM, he said LCA can't carry meteor as it is too heavy.. But why?

The innermost pylons (station numbers 1 & 2) are qualified for 1000lt drop tanks, BVRAAM, Bombs & LGBs. In the WalkTheTalk at HAL we r told the innermost pylons used a tandem pylon to drop 2*1000Lb bombs (weight equal to 1000lt drop tank). so when innermost pylons can carry 1000Kg load each, and also able to fire AAMs why cant we put a Meteor BVRAAM (only 185Kgs) there?

Surely it is possible!!!

IMO coupta should have asked Astra not Meteor. Coupta talks like a person who has hurriedly tried to inform himself about some things.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby geeth » 16 Oct 2016 07:15

There was a tender for engines and GE won it for supply of 414s. There was inordinate delay in signing the contract. Has the contract been signed?

What is the contingency plan if GE doesn't supply engines for LCA beyond the 100 already supplied ? Or more engines are already supplied? I feel the whole F16 saga is because of the engines for LCA programme. If not, I dont think India would ever consider this option. JMT

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby fanne » 16 Oct 2016 07:35

I too feel that coupta was on intelligence gathering mission.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Avarachan » 16 Oct 2016 08:08

Karan M, thanks for your post.

1) Regarding AKA, he prioritized the extra-regional (long-range missiles, etc.) over the regional (artillery ammunition, etc.). That obviously was not ideal, but I suspect that any Indian defense minister at that time and in that context would have made a similar choice. Despite all the pleasant talk from certain countries, there was a lot going on behind the scenes.

2) To study Indian history is to notice a certain lackadaisical attitude from Indian leaders regarding opportunities and threats. The chance to export the Tejas cannot be bargained away. As you know, modern fighter aircraft serve for about 40 years. Thanks to the Tejas, India has an amazing opportunity with the global retirement of Mig-21's/F-5's/etc. An opportunity like this will not come for another generation.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Pratyush » 16 Oct 2016 08:16

Amazing series of discussion in the last few pages.

No one is gon g to provide any stratagic advantage to India, just because India buys arms from them. The only way to get a strategic advantage is to build domestic ecosystem of defense supplies. But noooooooo, we will not make the effort to develop a domestic ecosystem, for indian arms. But will be happy to spend money on imports that have no possibility of value addition to the nation. Nor can they help build an ecosystem for India.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2016 10:03

Avarachan: A UN security council seat was just me thinking out loud. No offence intended. Nothing I say or think is necessarily going to be true. But if there is no quid pro quo for this, then I fail to see what the reason is for a new RFP for more phoren fighters. Please refer to the sixth post on page 4 of this thread.

Like I said earlier, either double the Rafale order and end this tamasha of another 90 single engine aircraft. It is amazing...whine and complain that there is no money to fund the LCA or order extra Rafales. But another new phoren toy and money just magically appears.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Arjunn » 16 Oct 2016 10:06

It would hardly take a few thousand crores to set up the infrastructure for mass production of the Tejas to meet IAF demand and for export. The beauty is that this entire investment can be recovered as there is undoubtedly an export market that can be tapped at this moment in time. If this has to happen, it has to happen now, with the govt taking necessary steps to initiate this right now so that within a few years we can have the capacity to fulfill our export orders, but given the current flow of events, I don't see it happening.

Rakesh wrote:The more I think about it, I believe it is the Permanent UN Security Council seat. India joining the MTCR club, attempts to join the NSG club (only a matter of time before China realizes it is in its best interests to deal with a resurgent India rather then rely on Randistan) all point to that. I could care less about politics, but for this to come to fruition, Modi will have to win in 2019. Second term baby! :)


Don't get me wrong, I am as much of a nationalist as you are, maybe even more.

One does not demand respect, one has to earn it. The common factor that distinguishes the permanent members of the UN security council at this moment in time is that they are all highly industrialized well developed countries with robust economies and largely "independent" defense infrastructure. They are not dependent on imports to protect themselves, and their citizens, mostly, are well fed. Once India gets to a situation where we have earned the respect of the world and become a power to reckon with, both economically and militarily, then we will see countries automatically queuing up to include us as a permanent member of the security council. I don't see it happening when our country is still like this:

http://www.firstpost.com/business/globa ... 46864.html

We deserve to be in the MTCR as we are a strong and independent missile power, and this should have happened a long time back.

Let us hope China has the foresight to ditch bakistan and realize there is no future for them with that nation.

Did I hear you say "resurgent India." Then, our perception of the ground realities in India are different. I see India going downhill under the present dispensation, and going downhill very fast. There is a lot of media spin promoting your hero, but the reality is far different.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 16 Oct 2016 10:12

Rakesh wrote:Avarachan: A UN security council seat was just me thinking out loud. No offence intended. Nothing I say or think is necessarily going to be true. But if there is no quid pro quo for this, then I fail to see what the reason is for a new RFP for more phoren fighters.
........


I have said this multiple times. The US has tied parting with engine techs that India had asked for with a f-teen line in India.

Also said that the AMCA can take over where the LCA left of.
Last edited by NRao on 16 Oct 2016 10:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby arsimovich » 16 Oct 2016 10:13

As per ADA official Tejas FB Page
SP 4 Delivery - Dec 2016
SP 5 and SP 6 Delivery - Jun 2017 (tentative)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2016 10:16

Then Arjun in order to earn that respect we should - as you have said clearly - not be dependant on imports. Then how exactly is issuing a RFP for 90 phoren fighters make us independent, when we have a desi aircraft that clearly meets the IAF's needs.

Yes I did say resurgent India when compared to the 10 years of UPA rule that just passed. Not perfect, but do we really need MMS and AKA back in the hot seat?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2016 10:18

NRao wrote:I have said this multiple times. The US has tied parting with engine techs that India had asked for with a f-teen line in India.

Also said that the AMCA can take over where the LCA left of.

It was made amply clear on BRF that no one is going to give us engine tech on a platter. And that we have to develop it on our own. So what exactly is the Khan going to offer then?

Secondly, if this is the Tejas' fate, what is to say the same will not happen with the AMCA as well? Develop another world-class aircraft and then get stymied by production bottlenecks? Don't develop anything, just keep on importing.


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