LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Oct 2016 09:24

has the order placed with HAL?

wig · Post by **wig** » 27 Oct 2016 09:56

CSIO develops LED landing lights for fighter aircraft

The Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) here has developed landing lights, which form part of the aircraft’s nose-wheel assembly and coloured navigation lights that are installed on wingtips and vertical tail fin.
These were developed for indigenous Tejas aircraft, but the technology and specifications can be adapted to meet requirements for other fighter as well as transport aircraft. At present, imported lights are being used in IAF aircraft.
The LED landing light, which illuminates the runway ahead while taxing, take-off or landing, weighs about 2 kg and consumes 150 watts while giving an illumination of 3.5 lakh candela. Conventional lights, on the other hand weighed 5 kg, including a power booster that also consumed extra space and consumed 1,100 watts for giving less than 2 lakh candela, according to scientists associated with the project. These also generated more heat.
The LED wingtip lights weigh 150 gm each with a brightness of 60 candela, while the conventional lights weigh 400 gm each with a brightness of 20 candela, scientists claimed. Under international regulations, navigation lights are mandatory for all civilian and military aircraft on routine flights. These indicate the aircraft’s presence in the skies as well as the direction of its flight as a safety measure for other aircraft in the vicinity.
CSIO said both types of lights were undergoing trials and these were expected to be operational by January. The project commenced in September last year.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 15357.html

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Oct 2016 10:04

Are the words of the ACM = a contract?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Oct 2016 10:09

SaiK wrote:Raha ji said 20 + 20 + 120 -> total 160 in 10 years

20 IOC + 20 FOC + 80 Mk1A = 120 in 10 yrs is what he said. (He didn't say 80, but 120 total so 89 is implied).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Oct 2016 10:12

Why does India want to import these?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... ontract-us
http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... ter-engine

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 27 Oct 2016 12:22

Indranil wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:With this kind of a heavy load out even with 1 drop tank we are talking about a 150 km combat radius.
How did you arrive at this? By the way the ADA boffins present the realistic combat range unlike's Gripen's best case brochures.

Without tanks and a 1 ton load out low low low range is 250 k and with 1 tank and 4 tonnes (inclusive of tank) it was around 150 km. Check Vivek Ahujas posts a couple of years ago when I asked him this question. He did a detailed analysis based on his model. And yes ADA has always been realistic on range - they corroborate the 300 km number (hi low hi)

In fact max external stores on tejas (inlcuding drop tanks) is 3.5 tons. http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/ ... mance.html

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 27 Oct 2016 12:24

Vivek K wrote:Are the words of the ACM = a contract?

Nope, the only words that matter are those of the babus (not even RM can over ride them if they are stuck on something). IAS rules.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 27 Oct 2016 13:22

Kartik wrote:
rakall wrote:We need special tandem pylons for :

1. Similar tandem loadout of 2 LGBs per pylon
2. Tandem pylons for 2 BVRAAMs per pylon (inboard pylon can handle even 3 BVRAAMs )
exactly what I was thinking..that while this is a commendable thing, the spacing between the dumb bombs indicates that carrying 2 LGBs on a single pylon is not possible.

I think you meant side by side pylons on a single hardpoint for the BVRAAMs and not tandem?

Yes.. as JayS said side by side "parallel pylons"..

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Oct 2016 17:52

Cross posting from Single Engine Fighter thread:

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote: So in summary:
20 IOC (can be upgraded to MK1A)
20 FOC = IOC + BVR + IFR = MK1 (will be upgraded to MK1A)
80 MK1A = FOC + AESA + EW (the "new design")

MK2 is a significant upgrade, I have never seen IAF talking about it officially. Even from the start we know it was a Navy initiative, IAF liked the idea so they were willing to go for it. But now it seems they are OK with MK1A and no more MK2 plans are talked about.
Probably wrong thread but again there is some confusion. What has been inducted now (IOC?) has no refuelling probe and no AESA and that is probably Mk 1. Mk 1A will have the probe, AESA and BVRAAM + EW(??) - (I hope) and this I expect will be FOC

IIRC we have ordered only 40 GE F 404s, but there are 99 F414s coming after that - and that might be this mysterious Mk II with its "will be there/won't be there" fuselage plug".

Shiv, AESA and internal SPJ were never talks about before for Mk1. They were part of MK2. They were pulled ahead in time as a part of Mk1A. Also FOC is next year, there is no way on earth we will see AESA by then. External SPJ was accepted as there is no place to put it inside. These two things, AESA in particular is what delaying MK1A to 2021. MK2 timeline is 2025, if it comes.

No one is talking about engine change in MK1A in open source at least. I have heard things but its all vague and nothing is confirmed. From open source, what I have gathered is what I wrote.

And if its like you say, that MK1A is going to be ready with AESA/EW by next year FOC and we will have this "almost MK2" with F414 but without the fuselage plug, then going for new fighter jet makes even less sense to me than it was making till now.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Oct 2016 18:01

http://idrw.org/india-push-backs-foc-fo ... jas-again/

Reliable well-informed sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas’s Final Operational Clearance (FOC) might be further delayed and might be pushed back to the middle of next year .

FOC was expected by mid-2016 for Tejas, later which was shifted to year end or and later pushed back to Q4 for fiscal 2016-17 but now it might be pushed back to Q2 fiscal in 2017-18 .

Integration of Air-to- Air Refuelling probe with LCA Tejas and its trials are still due and delays in their deliveries from Cobham U.K , further pushed FOC. HAL has begun testing new designed quartz radome but Further, radar testing needs to be carried out before new radome can replace older ones .

A further test of Israeli origin Beyond-Visual- Range Air-to- Air Missile (BVRAAM) Derby missile needs to be carried out along with test firing of fifth generation Air- to-Air Close Combat Missile, Python 5 which still are pending. Tejas had earlier successfully test fired the BVRAAM Derby missile.

Commodore CD Balaji, director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said that the final operational clearance (FOC) confirmed the development

Only talks of BVR and IFR pending for FOC. No AESA/EW.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Oct 2016 18:18

brar_w wrote:
IIRC we have ordered only 40 GE F 404s, but there are 99 F414s coming after that - and that might be this mysterious Mk II with its "will be there/won't be there" fuselage plug".
Have all the formalities been completed as far as ordering the 99 F414's are concerned? I always found it strange that the MK2, that is expected to come later had a higher engine order count compared to the MK1, especially given that fact that the 120 odd F404 based MK1's and 1A's would be delivered much before all the MK2's are. I've also not read reports of any F414 deliveries and some were expected by the end of 2015.

I have my doubts for this particular order. As I understand the reason for more engines for MK2 was because it was always only 20 planes (and later 20+20 when FOC was split in IOC+FOC) ordered in MK1 config. And before it could reach FOC, the goal post was moved to MK2. (Navy anyway wanted Mk2 for them since long, so add some for them). So they ordered more F414. Now again its moved to Mk1A.

There are no news of F414 in last 1-2yrs or so. It might be the case that the contract was converted to all F404 engines after the Mk1A config was agreed upon. Else we should have seen F414 delivered by now.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Oct 2016 19:16

But have we seen the engine as a sales notification anywhere else. Either from the Pentagon or from GE.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Oct 2016 19:21

JayS wrote: There are no news of F414 in last 1-2yrs or so. It might be the case that the contract was converted to all F404 engines after the Mk1A config was agreed upon. Else we should have seen F414 delivered by now.

From 2016
http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... ter-engine

The engine was also selected by India for the LCA Mk.2. The first flight test engine will ship in the fourth quarter of this year, with production to begin in 2018.

Korea, Turkey and India are also prospects for the engine for their next-generation fighter programs, she says.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy is being pitched an F414 upgrade that would bring 20% more thrust, twice the power takeoff for systems, and lower maintenance costs. “It’s a very low-risk upgrade incorporating an all-blisk compressor and 3D aero in the compressor and turbine,” she notes.

The upgrade is also being considered by India for its next-gen fighter program, and a deal there could include partnering with Indian industry on design of components.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Oct 2016 19:24

The pentagon doesn't need to notify since this was to be a commercially negotiated non FMS deal (Direct Commercial Sale). They would have required approval but much like the AH-64 itself (where the aircraft and its mission systems were purchased through DCS and only engines and weapons through FMS) there would not be a formal notification to Congress iirc.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Oct 2016 19:26

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote: There are no news of F414 in last 1-2yrs or so. It might be the case that the contract was converted to all F404 engines after the Mk1A config was agreed upon. Else we should have seen F414 delivered by now.
From 2016
http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... ter-engine
The engine was also selected by India for the LCA Mk.2. The first flight test engine will ship in the fourth quarter of this year, with production to begin in 2018.

Korea, Turkey and India are also prospects for the engine for their next-generation fighter programs, she says.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy is being pitched an F414 upgrade that would bring 20% more thrust, twice the power takeoff for systems, and lower maintenance costs. “It’s a very low-risk upgrade incorporating an all-blisk compressor and 3D aero in the compressor and turbine,” she notes.

The upgrade is also being considered by India for its next-gen fighter program, and a deal there could include partnering with Indian industry on design of components.

This says that it was selected. Other reports over the years have said ordered, while a few gave late 2015 as delivery of the first batch of 4 engines. Nothing seems to have materialized so to me this looks suspect. That the order has been pushed out, or converted to F404's is probably a more likely explanation.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Oct 2016 19:30

Could only be for NLCA MK2.

I would be really happy to see MK1A with F414. That would be incredible. But I am not convinced as of now.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Oct 2016 20:02

Has the F414 arrived yet?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Oct 2016 20:07

The 414 seems to be a real Yeti, in the Indian context. As we have also not seen any report of the budget for the 414. Or for that matter any signature for it from the MOD or the HAL.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Oct 2016 20:18

There has been nothing from GE either as far as delivery is concerned. I don't think the final deal or an agreed delivery schedule actually has been finalized and signed.

This was a Jane's (R Bedi) article from September, 2015 that claimed late 2015 deliveries -

India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) will receive the first of eight General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engines for the Mk 2 version of its Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) by the end of 2015, officials said.

The F414 engine, which generates 90-98 kN thrust, will replace the LCA Mk 1's General Electric F404-GE-IN20 powerpack, which generates 80-85kN thrust.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has 40 single-engine LCA Mk 1s on order from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), maintains that the F404 engine constricts the fighter's manoeuvrability, angle of attack, and weapons load.

The F414 engine was designed for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, but has become the engine of choice for growth versions of the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen, and the Tejas. Selected over the Eurojet EJ200 engine in 2010-11, it will eventually also power the navy's LCA when it enters service in several years, programme director Commodore C D Balaji (retd) told IHS Jane's on 8 July.

Until then the F404 engine will power LCA (N) prototypes and limited series production (LSP) platforms, he said.

ADA agreed to buy eight F414 engines in 2012 for an undisclosed amount, while HAL "initialled" an agreement for 99 additional engines for around USD800 million.

The latter deal will be signed once the LCA Mk 2 programme is advanced. It envisions the initial import of a limited number of engines, with the remainder being delivered in kit form for assembly by HAL in Bangalore.

HAL ultimately plans to licence-build the F414 engine, as it expects to require 500-600 units, based on orders of around 100-110 LCA Mk 2s from the IAF and 40 from the Indian Navy.

Fighter aircraft like the LCA average around 3.5 engines during their service life of around 3,000 hours, IAF officials said. [WRONG]

The ADA claims that the first LCA Mk 2 prototype will conduct its maiden test flight in 2018-19 and go into series production three years later.

However, IAF officers question this timeline, as the LCA Mk 2's rear fuselage will need re-engineering to accommodate the heavier engine, thereby altering the fighter's air dynamics. They said this would necessitate time-consuming and technologically complex alterations to the platforms avionics and related systems to stabilise it, which could involve overseas consultants.

Meanwhile, the IAF has informed the Ministry of Defence (MoD) that it needs an additional 44 Dassault Rafale fighters to supplement the 36 Rafales that India is negotiating to acquire in flyaway condition.

Official sources said Air Headquarters told the MoD in June that the additional Rafales were necessary as by 2017-18 the IAF would begin to retire 10-11 squadrons of 180-200 MiG-21 and MiG-27 variants.

According to the latest Parliamentary Defence Committee report, the IAF's combat squadrons will total 25 by 2022, down from the authorised strength of 45 squadrons, if no new platforms are imminently acquired.

On a slightly OT note, this below is the level of industrial involvement that South Korean firms are having in their F-414 that was selected to power their future KF-X aircraft -

The deal relates to the production of the General Electric (GE) F414 turbofan engine, which was selected for the KFX programme by the Seoul's Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) in late May. This programme will see Hanwha Techwin, in collaboration with other South Korean companies, produce at least 50% of the F414 engine parts before localised assembly and delivery to KAI for installation on the KFX aircraft.

DAPA hopes to finalise negotiations with GE on the purchase of the engine as well as the industrial engagement programme, which will enable GE to discharge its offset obligations on the contract, within the next few months.

A GE spokesperson told IHS Jane's recently that the localisation package features the entire fan and low-pressure turbine (LPT) module for the production phase of the KFX programme. Additional parts featured in the package include blisk, blades, and disks, including the high-pressure turbine, and critical high-volume rotating parts. Hanwha Techwin's involvement in the KFX programme consolidates its position as South Korea's leading aero-engine manufacturer.

In partnership with GE, the company, which Hanwha acquired from Samsung in June 2015, also licence-produced the GE F404-GE-102 turbofan engine that powers KAI's single-engine T-50 Golden Eagle advanced jet trainer and its derivatives.

Hanwha Techwin and GE are also partnered on the programme to build and supply the GE T700-701K turboshaft engine for South Korea's Surion light utility twin-engine helicopter, which is operated by the Republic of Korea Army and was developed and produced by KAI in collaboration with Airbus Helicopters.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Oct 2016 21:09

Might as well that ADA would pick some F414 engines for NLCA Mk2 prototypes directly and will sign the deal once the picture for orders for NLCA + AF Mk2 jets is cleared.

How many engines are Koreans buying?? They are getting a pretty decent work load here. If we buy some significant number we could get similar deal. The production could be given to a private company consortium and should be tied to Kaveri program, so those companies can get future orders once this production run is done and continuity would be maintained.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Oct 2016 21:19

The ROKAF have identified a need for 120 twin engine KF-X's, so you are probably looking at 250-300 engines counting test articles, and spares.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Oct 2016 21:41

From GE:

http://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f414/

The F414-INS6 single-engine variant is in development for India’s Aeronautical defense Agency (ADA) to power the MKII version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

It is dated and has not changed for about a year+

Look for F414-GE-INS6 or F414-INS6

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Oct 2016 23:05

Flight global
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ii-381334/

22 January, 2013 BY: Greg Waldron Singapore

India has completed a deal for 99 General Electric F414 engines, the powerplant for the planned Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas Mk II Light Combat Aircraft.

In a call with Flightglobal, an industry source close to the 99 engine deal confirmed that it has been completed. Indian media reports peg the value of the deal at Indian rupees (Rs) 30 billion ($560 million).

http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... ontract-us

India has signed an Rs30bn ($558m) contract with the US for the supply of jet engines to power the Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) Tejas Mark-II light combat aircraft (LCA) fleet, which is currently being developed.

Unidentified DRDO officials were quoted by Press Trust of India as saying: "The deal worth Rs 3,000 crore has been finalised with the US for procuring 99 engines for the LCA Tejas MkII."

Initially covering the supply of 99 General Electric F414-GE-INS6 turbofan engines, the contract also includes options for the procurement of 100 additional powerplants in the future under negotiated terms.

The GE F-414 engines had already been selected by India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) against the Eurojet 2000 turbofan powerplant for the LCA Mark II programme in October 2010.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -squadrons

NEW DELHI: India and the US have finalised a Rs 3000-crore deal for supplying 99 jet engines to be used in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' being developed by the DRDO.

Around two years ago, India had selected the American company General Electric over its rival European Eurojet 2000 for the LCA Mark II programme expected to be ready around 2014-15.

http://idrw.org/india-to-get-ges-f414-i ... ejas-mkii/

According to report prepared by a prominent journalist ” Ajai Shukla ” General Electric will supply the first batch of F414-INS6 engines to power Tejas Mk II Light Combat Aircraft later this year in September. General Electric F414-INS6 is a variant of F414 engines which power American F-18 Super hornet fighter jets has been modified to add enhanced safety features for operations on single engine fighter jet like Tejas MK-II. General Electric and India completed a deal for supply of 99 F414-INS6 engines in 2013 and GE started working on Indian specified variant from 2014 on wards. ADE and HAL have provided simulation data of Tejas MK-II to General Electric to carry out an internal assessment of airflow from air intake of the fighter jet and it was later found that No changes in air intakes were needed .

http://www.sldinfo.com/india-flies-indi ... -airspace/

In an article published last year, Jane’s Defence Weekly discussed the new engines for the aircraft.

India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) will receive the first of eight General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engines for the Mk 2 version of its Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) by the end of 2015, officials said.

The F414 engine, which generates 90-98 kN thrust, will replace the LCA Mk 1’s General Electric F404-GE-IN20 powerpack, which generates 80-85kN thrust.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has 40 single-engine LCA Mk 1s on order from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), maintains that the F404 engine constricts the fighter’s manoeuvrability, angle of attack, and weapons load.

The F414 engine was designed for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, but has become the engine of choice for growth versions of the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen, and the Tejas.

Selected over the Eurojet EJ200 engine in 2010-11, it will eventually also power the navy’s LCA when it enters service in several years, programme director Commodore C D Balaji (retd) told IHS Jane’s on 8 July.

Until then the F404 engine will power LCA (N) prototypes and limited series production (LSP) platforms, he said.

http://www.liquisearch.com/general_elec ... 4/variants

F414-GE-INS6

India's Aeronautical Development Agency selected the F414-GE-INS6 engine to power the Mk II version of the HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force. 99 engines were ordered in October 2010. The engine is to produce more thrust than previous F414 versions. It features a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system. The F414-GE-INS6 is to have six stages. The engines are to be delivered by 2013.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Oct 2016 23:23

Shiv, I've seen those as well but unlike practically every other GE military hardware contract this one has nothing as far an official press release on contract signing. If 99 engines were purchased, where are the initial batches? SAAB and Boeing are getting timely deliveries and I assume the F404's are being delivered to HAL but we have heard nothing on the F414's.

n a call with Flightglobal, an industry source close to..

Unidentified DRDO officials

According to report prepared by a prominent journalist ” Ajai Shukla ”

It would be very strange for a half a billion + dollar deal with that many options to go totally unconfirmed either by the OEM selling or the entity receiving these orders.

In an article published last year, Jane’s Defence Weekly discussed the new engines for the aircraft.

I posted the September, 2015 Jane's Defense Weekly article earlier, the most relevant parts are -

ADA agreed to buy eight F414 engines in 2012 for an undisclosed amount, while HAL "initialled" an agreement for 99 additional engines for around USD800 million.

The latter deal will be signed once the LCA Mk 2 programme is advanced. It envisions the initial import of a limited number of engines, with the remainder being delivered in kit form for assembly by HAL in Bangalore.

Don't know what to make of this. What has HAL "initialled" and what is left to be taken up at a later date "once the LCA MK2 programme is advanced"? Moreover, in September of this year the same author had to say this through the same publication -

ADA had planned to replace the LCA's F404 engine (generating 80-85 kN thrust), with the more powerful General Electric F414-GE-INS6, which generates 90-98kN thrust, but abandoned the proposal in 2015 as it entailed major re-engineering.

The IAF is pinning its hopes on the LCA, aiming to replace its ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s with the indigenous fighter.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Oct 2016 00:09

It pains me on the silence of no invigorated reorganization happening towards restructuring GTRE and re-jump-start improvised Kaveri engine.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Oct 2016 12:31

^^ Things are happening at glacial speeds even if we consider something is happening behind the doors.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 28 Oct 2016 12:43

If I remember correctly, one of the major hurdles for GTRE or HAL turbine folks was lack of suitable testing facilities in desh, especially high altitude simulation chambers. Lets face it, our PSUs were created and structured to provide jobs; not produce "products". I think we got in to a semi-product mode only during late 80s etc., but we had severe cash flow issues, which prevented setting up the kind of infra required for R&D/Product Development environment. Couple that with poor HR policies (thus resulting in severe attrition), I feel the system (MOD, services, CSIR included as well) doesn't have the prod dev temperament yet. There are a lot of individual folks who are serious & good with in the system...none of these are new facts.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Oct 2016 13:08

^^ The blame for this miserable situation lies squarely with GOI. As owners it was their responsibility to give proper direction, facilitate proper functioning. On contrary the ministries always meddled with the company administrations, sat on proposals which they don't like. The list is endless.

Just compare the performance of some of the PSUs under current dispensation vis-s-vis UPA era. CIL which was literally given up on increasing production to even 450-500million tons is now well on target to produce 1Billion ton.!!

Next compare performance of Maha/Navratna PSUs and some which were converted to autonomous organisations such as Mint board to those which have no financial autonomy, in the same time period, say UPA era. You will notice the 1st type were performing fairly well in comparison because they had some autonomy and wouldn't need to go with begging bowl to minister or babus.

Large scale privatization is not the panacea for all our problems. Its all fine to say "Government has no business to do business", but we know capitalism has also failed on a number of fronts and does not offer a ideal solution. Without heavy regulation and overseering by government and frequent interventions on economic front, even the capitalistic system does not function well.

IMHO, rather than getting into this PSU bashing, we should seat down and look at the real bottlenecks in the situations. And try to resolve them. Same with our procurement policies (Akshay Kapoor saar have given some glimpse on procurement system in another thread). This British era system needs to go where babudom rules the country without any transparency or accountability. That is the main problem.

As a first step, if Modi is serious on reforming PSUs, he should remove all the PSUs from govt clutches. He doesn't need to divest, just give full autonomy. Let them function like private corporates on their own. Remove the communist-era unions. Remove PSUs from Central govt pay structure, let them pay as corporates pay based on performance. Let them recruit based on qualification and not castes. Government can give them policy direction. If the PSUs perform, well and good, if they sink, let them sink. Someone from private industry will take up that business.

Privatization will happen eventually. But today one cannot just sell all PSUs at wholesale rate. And we cannot wait until govt finds right price to sell its stakes. Autonomy is way to go until then.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Oct 2016 22:50

SP-02

After SP-3 took to sky, now the entire attention has been shifted to the dates for SP-4 first flight. The SP series aircrafts have created a huge buzz in the minds of Tejas fans. We wish, the entire production chain raise to the expectations of the fans.
Seen here, SP-2 taking off for a routine exercise..

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 28 Oct 2016 23:00

SP-02 - Is that telemetery pod under the wing?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Oct 2016 23:44

Bhaskar_T wrote:SP-02 - Is that telemetery pod under the wing?

No. Just pylon.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 29 Oct 2016 00:27

JayS wrote:^^ This British era system needs to go where babudom rules the country without any transparency or accountability. That is the main problem.

As a first step, if Modi is serious on reforming PSUs, he should remove all the PSUs from govt clutches. He doesn't need to divest, just give full autonomy. Let them function like private corporates on their own. Remove the communist-era unions. Remove PSUs from Central govt pay structure, let them pay as corporates pay based on performance. Let them recruit based on qualification and not castes. Government can give them policy direction. If the PSUs perform, well and good, if they sink, let them sink. Someone from private industry will take up that business.

Privatization will happen eventually. But today one cannot just sell all PSUs at wholesale rate. And we cannot wait until govt finds right price to sell its stakes. Autonomy is way to go until then.

Good points.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Oct 2016 02:11

Kartik wrote:SP-02

Regarding the aesthetics, one has to say SP-2 looks smooth.

And now the bricks.
1. I thought for a moment that SPs were coming in all Tippy grey. I was wrong. They seem to be continuing the dual tone. I find it childish.
2. What is the use of the imprinting the name "Tejas" on the plane? And if yes, could we do with a better font.
3. Everything except the arrow pointing to the external crew rescue hatch should be printed using more discrete colours. For example, we are doing quite fine on the MKIs. For example, the warnings for heat exchangers, air inlets etc. are required only when somebody is within touching distance from those areas. Therefore, high contrast paint is really not required. It only gives the plane a "non-serious" look.

Imagine this in all grey and without the "Tejas" on the side.

By the way, the Python 5's pylon looks "sharper" than that of the R-73's.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Oct 2016 02:28

The Python 5 pylon looks like the standard Python 5 pylon seen on other fighters that use this missile. Yes, sleeker design than the R-73's pylon.

I agree with you on the two-tone scheme, I don't like it that much..would've preferred SP-3 style dark grey (darker than Tipnis grey which is a lighter gray) and with a lighter grey radome..SP-3 accidentally hit the perfect spot. Next time we'll see it, it'll be like SP-1 and 2.

Funnily enough, even the new USAF F-16 Have Glass camo, which is supposedly radar absorbent, is of a similar dark grey body, light grey radome style. Will be applied initially only to F-16 CM/CJ variants that are tasked with SEAD, but it sure does look a stunner when compared to the old style F-16 camo that was boringest of the boring (if there's a word like that)

As for the 'Tejas' stencil on the side, this is something HAL seems to have picked up from the Dassault Mirage-2000, where they used to write 'Mirage-2000' on the side in a cursive style..Dassault did that on its Mirage series jets, even the older ones. But HAL needs to stop doing this for SP fighters that are delivered to the IAF. These are no longer prototypes or testbeds.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Oct 2016 02:30

It does look much better than the LSPs and other prototypes. Still some small imperfections, see the AF day pics from Tejas.gov.in. But we should see SP4 onwards some more improvement. And may be from 2nd batch perfectly flawless skin with TFTA smooth finish.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Oct 2016 03:22

Thanks Kartik for that F-16 pic. Yes, the latest one is a stunner. But the Tipnis grey was the most difficult to pic up in the Indian skies. Thanks for the the Mirage related tid-bit as well. Did not know that.

Jay, the finish from SP-4 onwards will very similar to what you see on SP2/3 to the naked eye. But yeah the final internal layout for production of the Mk1s have been arrived. Expect the production rate to pick up.

Also, let's just say that when the envelop is cleared for 26, you will see tighter turns, i.e. lower v and lower r, but v^2/r will be kept at 8Gs. We were right about the LEVCONs. It pushes both Cl and Cd up = higher sink rates.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Oct 2016 06:51

Tarmak on fb shares some low resolution Tejas-SP3 pics (flying behind the trees) taken by somebody from near by colonies and then AK says "Over to HAL for SP4". Does this means SP3 has been handed over to IAF?

Yesterday morning the Tejas LCA fb page (official handle) also confirmed to me that SP3 has been handed over and full efforts are on to ensure that first flight of SP-4 occurs in 2016, although the confirmation by the fb page was very short and bit cryptic, I couldnt believe straight-away.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Oct 2016 07:01

SP3 has likely been delivered. But the pictures shared by tarmak is of LSP5.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2016 07:32

Since aesthetics is always a matter of opinion, I must say that I love the stencilled "Tejas" on the side. But I would like to see it in Hindi as well. With a bit of luck our moorkh-journos will be able to read one of the languages and know that this plane has a name and an Indian name and they must do a Google image search for that name rather than posting a pic of a JF-17 or F-16

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Oct 2016 09:29

Apparently SP-3 has not yet been delivered to the IAF. Almost a month after first flight. 3 test flights were supposed to be done before handing over to the IAF, and one could assume it takes 2 weeks for the paint job..but a month after its first flight, the IAF still hasn't gotten it.