LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 29 Oct 2016 11:20

My working theory is that HAL has messed up setting up the production line for LCA and it can max achieve 2-3 LCA per annum. That's the main reason for Indian Govt going for second line of single engine aircraft. This mess up is not unique to HAL; and BDL has done same to AKASH, OFB to PINAKA.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Oct 2016 11:43

Indranil wrote:Thanks Kartik for that F-16 pic. Yes, the latest one is a stunner. But the Tipnis grey was the most difficult to pic up in the Indian skies. Thanks for the the Mirage related tid-bit as well. Did not know that.

Jay, the finish from SP-4 onwards will very similar to what you see on SP2/3 to the naked eye. But yeah the final internal layout for production of the Mk1s have been arrived. Expect the production rate to pick up.

Also, let's just say that when the envelop is cleared for 26, you will see tighter turns, i.e. lower v and lower r, but v^2/r will be kept at 8Gs. We were right about the LEVCONs. It pushes both Cl and Cd up = higher sink rates.

Expected that corner speed is lowered for same G limits but increased AoA. This shifts the stall curve in V-N diagram slightly towards left. It should still give better ITR, I think.

GOod to have some confirmation on LEVCON. Higher sink rate means lower L/D. And if both are increasing then D must be increasing more than L. Which is also what we discussed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2016 12:02

Regarding delivery of SP3 there could be more innocuous reasons:

It was not ready by Air Force day - Oct 8.

Oct 9th was a Sunday.
Oct 10th was Ayudha Pooja
Oct 11th was Dussehra
Oct 12 was Muharram
--all govt holidays

That was a 5 day weekend and all government staff and migrant workers vanish. Unless there is a national emergency nothing will happen. Children have Dussehra holidays extending up to Diwali which starts today - so a whole lot of HAL and IAF people are on leave

Oct 19th was Karva Chauth and Oct 22 was a 4th Saturday (Bank Holiday) and 23rd Sunday - and people who did not get time off over Dussehra had another chance for a long weekend.

Then, a week later we have Diwali: Today (sat 29th) tomorrow and Monday are holidays followed by Rajyotsava day (a Karnataka state holiday) (HAL not working). In other words a third long weekend this month.
For Hindus: Ayudha Pooja, Dussehra, Diwali (3 days)
For Government staff: Ayudha Pooja, Dussehra, Diwali (3 days), + Karva Chauth, + Muharram, + 3 long weekends in October
For Karnataka (HAL) people - add 1 extra day That is 15 plus days in October - AFTER Air Force day. It's a month when the nation celebrates the post monsoon bloom

This is the worst time of year to get people to deliver a brand new aircraft.

Amreeka is working hard maybe - but out here we're mostly chilling out

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 29 Oct 2016 13:45

Do Docs also observe all these holidays?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2016 15:41

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Do Docs also observe all these holidays?

Technically Akshay, like police, Firemen and armed forces on duty - docs have to work but have duty days. Private guys like me have no holiday, although I choose not to consult on these days. But if an emergency lands in hospital I will go. And must visit my patients who are in hospital at this time every day. Unfortunately the mindset sinks in and nowadays I get an uncomfortable feeling if I am off for more than 4 days.

But what typically happens is that everyone is in holiday mood and patients don't turn up on holidays.

That said I must make a mention of our men who are at this moment being shot at on the border and the docs on duty there who have to respond with dead earnestness to gunshot and blast injuries.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Oct 2016 15:49

I am not impressed with HAL performance either but HAL messing up of production line assembly is a big statement. There is no such evidence so far. Especially, when the final configuration (production related aspects) of SP aircraft is just being achieved, how could one say that HAL has already messed up the production line assembly for Tejas. A company who has decades of operating production line assemblies (Migs, Sukhois, Hawks), how can HAL go wrong? Infact, recent tours/interviews by journalists (Shekhar, Nolan-Pinto, A. Gokhale from BharatShakti etc.) have established from Parrikar/HAL-CMD that current line is catered for 8 LCA/year. Whether HAL delivers 17 LCA's by 2018-2019 is yet to be seen.

18th May 2016 - http://bharatshakti.in/hal-plans-to-dou ... -says-cmd/

NG: Should you get orders from abroad, how will you meet the timelines and delivery schedules? Do you have the capacity to undertake these orders?

TSR: At present HAL has a rated capacity to produce eight Tejas aircraft per annum. Capacity augmentation to produce 16 aircraft per annum is on the anvil. With this augmentation, increased outsourcing and private sector participation, HAL is confident of meeting the timelines and delivery requirements including any orders from abroad.

Gyan wrote:My working theory is that HAL has messed up setting up the production line for LCA and it can max achieve 2-3 LCA per annum. That's the main reason for Indian Govt going for second line of single engine aircraft. This mess up is not unique to HAL; and BDL has done same to AKASH, OFB to PINAKA.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Oct 2016 15:58

That look from F-16 pictures is so TFTA

I surely dream that LCA one day achieves such smooth finish. May I ask, based on your knowledge, if our Su30MKI's being produced from Nasik have such good finish (or Hawks for that matter), just to understand that Indian MIC/HAL has this capability of delivering TFTA type finish.

JayS wrote:It does look much better than the LSPs and other prototypes. Still some small imperfections, see the AF day pics from Tejas.gov.in. But we should see SP4 onwards some more improvement. And may be from 2nd batch perfectly flawless skin with TFTA smooth finish.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Oct 2016 16:16

^^ MKI is almost entirely metal body while LCA outer skin in almost entire composites. Apples vs Oranges. In fact we should have better expertise in Composites that Russians.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Oct 2016 16:24

One of the reports in March 2016 quoted that it takes 187 Mln$ to double the production line assembly 8 LCA to 16 LCA/year. If true, it is very cheap (I know we built Mangalyaan cheap too) and I wonder what stops Parrikar ji in approving the expanding the HAL assembly plant to 16 LCA/year. Does this cost of expanding the production line look realistic? Does anyone have an idea of what capital expenditure associated with expansion of production line has been submitted to Parrikarji/MOD?

I could not find the initial expenditure done by HAL to setup the Tejas production line assembly (200-400 Mln$?), although there used to be many articles quoting the investment around 2012-2014 time frame.

http://bharatshakti.in/india-will-spend ... lca-tejas/

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Oct 2016 16:35

India Offers to Buy 200 Foreign Combat Jets - If They're Made-in-India

Bye Bye LCA

A deal for 200 single-engine planes produced in India - which the air force says could rise to 300 as it fully phases out ageing Soviet-era aircraft - could be worth anything from $13-$15 billion, experts say, potentially one of the country's biggest military aircraft deals.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Oct 2016 16:47

The pending proposal for 2nd line demands total of 2500Cr investment. 1250Cr from HAL, 1250Cr from IAF+Navy.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 29 Oct 2016 17:27

Was surprised when LCA was given an order of 120 as easily as it did , now it is clear . The LCA order was cloak this above is the dagger...god help this nation

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Oct 2016 17:39

SivaVijay wrote:Was surprised when LCA was given an order of 120 as easily as it did , now it is clear . The LCA order was cloak this above is the dagger...god help this nation

No formal order beyond the original 40 has been placed.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 29 Oct 2016 17:45

Pratyush wrote:
SivaVijay wrote:Was surprised when LCA was given an order of 120 as easily as it did , now it is clear . The LCA order was cloak this above is the dagger...god help this nation

No formal order beyond the original 40 has been placed.

Without that order, HAL would not place an order for engines. And based on when the last SOP was finalized, there will be further delays in the next 6-8 SPs. And that will lead to orders being transferred to other platforms.
---------
We're witnessing the slow strangling of the LCA.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Oct 2016 17:51

MOD can Delay 4 Rafales and accelerate that Rs. 2500 Crore = 375 Mln$ (1 USD = 66 INR) in expanding the production line.

JayS wrote:The pending proposal for 2nd line demands total of 2500Cr investment. 1250Cr from HAL, 1250Cr from IAF+Navy.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Oct 2016 17:54

Bhaskar_T wrote:MOD can Delay 4 Rafales and accelerate that Rs. 2500 Crore = 375 Mln$ (1 USD = 66 INR) in expanding the production line.

JayS wrote:The pending proposal for 2nd line demands total of 2500Cr investment. 1250Cr from HAL, 1250Cr from IAF+Navy.

DOesn't work that way. As such 2500Cr isnt a big deal for GOI. If they don't have they can allow HAL to take loans. It has impeccable balance sheet and can easily get a lot of loan.

There is also a $7-8B worth money parked in DPSUs as advance payments for various projects, HAL itself having significant amount of it. Govt is planning to make a emergency war kitty out of it. They can use some of that money for LCA for now.

See there are n number of ways to put money in LCA if GOI is willing, Problem is, as I have said many times, I dont see the intent.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Oct 2016 21:10

JayS wrote: Expected that corner speed is lowered for same G limits but increased AoA. This shifts the stall curve in V-N diagram slightly towards left. It should still give better ITR, I think.

Yes.

JayS wrote: GOod to have some confirmation on LEVCON. Higher sink rate means lower L/D. And if both are increasing then D must be increasing more than L. Which is also what we discussed.

Yes.

SP3 will be delivered very soon.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Oct 2016 21:35

Pratyush wrote:
SivaVijay wrote:Was surprised when LCA was given an order of 120 as easily as it did , now it is clear . The LCA order was cloak this above is the dagger...god help this nation

No formal order beyond the original 40 has been placed.

This is rather hard to believe though....Do note that no official source has been quoted. Make in India will
Become mucking india if they are not careful.

Is the situation around production by hal soo bad that it has made the govt desperate to find a private player that can be brought up to speed? I guess there simply is not enough capacity in terms of resources, managerial and otherwise at home to get the lca in numbers in the short period available. HAL will need to work concurrently with another private firm while being engaged in a multitude of other projects including their own lca line. Truly unfortunate if true, since the lca is a perfect fit in this category.

I think there are 2-3 the overriding concerns for such a move...
1) the need to buy non Russian and diversify
2) the need to plug iaf numbers very quickly
3) the need to build a competitive non psu dependent high tech aero industry
4) possibly but less likely, the need to strategically align with the US. Perhaps GOI gets full support from uncle to achieve goals vs tsp, china and become pivotal player in global affairs. Does potus plan to meet with pm anytime soon? This might happen a lot faster....

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 29 Oct 2016 21:57

5) may be present GoI is operating from the next election's deadline perspective and wants to get as many strategic things squared away as possible. No one knows what holds next.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Oct 2016 23:58

Only the need for election funding seems to be the cause here. If production rate was the problem that could have been overcome with investment. Bye bye make in India! Welcome Screw us in India!

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 30 Oct 2016 00:56

With Nigeria (&Qatar/Egypt?) also going for JF17 orders, Tejas-Bhai can hope SriLanka and Vietnam don't go away too.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 30 Oct 2016 03:37

LCA program is going to be scrapped with foreign single engine fighter plane orders being planned.

The LCA is about to go the way of the Arjun tank.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2016 03:46

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Oct 2016 05:03

Bhaskar_T wrote:With Nigeria (&Qatar/Egypt?) also going for JF17 orders, Tejas-Bhai can hope SriLanka and Vietnam don't go away too.

Will JF17 fly with nigerian crude? Where will Qatar and Egypt get the pilots? All assuming JF17 can fly.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Oct 2016 05:21

HAL is not an independent company. It's running by MoD.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 01 Nov 2016 12:54

https://twitter.com/makeinindia/status/793339288020742144

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 01 Nov 2016 13:18

While China is building up its domestic aerospace R&D base, IAF is hard at work destroying India's fledgling aerospace R&D base. Trying to sideline (and later sink) the LCA project with shit loads of foreign single engine fighter plane imports destroys all incentive for domestic innovation.

Screw driver turning assembly monkeys do not invent/innovate anything worthwhile their entire career.

Once the drive to innovate domestic technologies is gone, the fools will realise that screwdriver giri destroys not creates industries.

____

China debuts J-20 stealth jet in show of strength at country's biggest air expo

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 174516.cms

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Nov 2016 13:30

Neshant wrote:.

Once the drive to innovate domestic technologies is gone, the fools will realise that screwdriver giri destroys not creates industries.

____

How does it matter ? And what do they care ? The Govt needs to make noise /issue press statements /show 'success' . Who knows if they will last after the next election.

The Govt will tom tom this as a "success" of "Make In India" (whatever that means). But if someone asks you, so what exactly is this " Make in India", we made Gnats, Mig 21, 23, 27, Jaguar and Su 30s in India. So what is new here ? Sounds like old wine in new bottle or rather rebranding the the old "Be Indian, Buy Indian" I used to see painted everywhere (including trucks).

But shhh.. Don't ask. You will be called names. We are told that the Modi Sarkar would do ground breaking things. I can only see them doing the same things they did for the past 60 years, only calling the same things with new names.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 01 Nov 2016 13:46

Unless foreign single engine fighter plane imports are banned,
and a commitment made to finish the LCA project meeting its target specifications,
I don't see much hope for India developing a domestic R&D aerospace base.

If the country cannot mass produce a fighter plane now, it is not likely
that it will succeed with an even more complex design. Besides, who in their
right minds would keep allocating funds to indigenous projects that are either
abandoned or sunk in some cases just as they are making headway.

After the LCA is sidelined, the announcement that India will try to build yet
another indigenous fighter plane will be seen as a joke.

At some point it has to be recognized that import addiction is destroying
not creating industries & innovation. That alone is a strategic threat. Any monkey
can pick planes out of a catalog and hand over bags of wealth to foreign producers.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Nov 2016 13:53

Neshant wrote: After the LCA is sidelined, the announcement that India will try to build yet
another indigenous fighter plane will be seen as a joke.

So what ? Two things I can say in favour of a good joke.
1. Jokes are funny
2. Everyone enjoys a good joke

At some point it has to be recognized that import addiction is destroying
not creating industries & innovation. That alone is a strategic threat. Any monkey
can pick planes out of a catalog and hand over bags of wealth to foreign producers.

Who cares about "creating industries & innovation" , and who must "recognise" whatever. There is no rationale for anything. Modi has made a huge noise about "Make in India" . So everything that is imported and assembled now is "Make in India" (as if it wasn't earlier) . Modi has to show something came out of all that noise. Until now there has been nothing except noise.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 01 Nov 2016 14:16

It has been a rather disappointing to see indigenous MIC making not much progress. I too like many had hoped that after NaMo took over, indigenous products would get a major fillip. I think probably there is a massive rationalization of major indigenous programs happening internally. Perhaps, programs which are not likely to succeed, either due to disinterest by the forces (Arjun) or inability to make breakthroughs (Rustom, Nirbhay etc) are slowly meeting their natural end. Hopefully, funding is being improved for streams where we are delivering satisfying products to the services (avionics, missile systems).

I have a grudging admiration of the Chinese...their resolve to keep going at it.

Anyways, have to learn to disengage emotionally from the happenings of the Indian MIC...

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 01 Nov 2016 16:22

Given the state of our military we should have had a technocrat defence minister who has domain expertise in the field or some sort of project management expertise in related fields. The current defence minister although better than his predecessor is not someone who has attention to detail, indepth understanding of the issues and a person with long term vision. We should have had someone like Piyush Goyal or Suresh Prabhu as defence minister who can make structural changes rather than continuing with the old failed policies. Sadly I guess we will have to wait for more time. There is no hope from the current crop atleast for me personally. We should keep our fingers crossed that we don't have to face a full blown war in the next 10 years

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 01 Nov 2016 17:04

Gyan wrote:My working theory is that HAL has messed up setting up the production line for LCA and it can max achieve 2-3 LCA per annum. That's the main reason for Indian Govt going for second line of single engine aircraft. This mess up is not unique to HAL; and BDL has done same to AKASH, OFB to PINAKA.

You've made a good observation - the slow rate of production of LCA at HAL, Akash at BDL and Pinaka at OFB. However, you draw an incorrect conclusion that the three agencies - HAL, BDL & OFB - are incompetent.

What you or others don't realise is that an aircraft or missile or torpedo or anything else is designed three times.

The first time designers put something that tries to meet design specifications. That is Tejas IOC-2. However, it is not something that can be mass produced. Also, DRDO subcontractors build in lab quantities and cannot scale up. So production agency has to develop new subcontractors who can manufacture in an industrial scale.

The second design happens at HAL or BDL or OFB. The design is not the outer design but the inner design, which is why people dont notice.

BR Member MAK made the following report.

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1373414

The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.)

“In the next aircraft, around 100 panels and 700-plus pipelines will be in the ICY standards,” says an official

If 100 panels and 700 pipelines are not interchangeable, its simply not standardized for production.

That is also the reason why the first squadron is based at Sulur Coimbatore near Bangalore. Because parts will need to be custom built for SP-1, 2 & 3. No way those aircraft can be deployed to Jaisalmer or Tezpur for extended periods.

100 panels and 700 pipelines indicates a major internal redesign. Its almost akin to changing the circulatory system and skin of a human being while keeping outward looks intact.

That is what HAL is busy doing. Which is what BDL has to do for Akash and OFB for Pinaka.

Also, the KPA of DRDO labs does not include support while productionizing. Hence they have a hand's off attitude.

Any DRDO chap deputed to a production agency will lose out on promotion prospects at the lab since the time spent production-izing will not be counted as R&D, thus losing seniority.

Refer below Manohar Parrikar's public voicing of frustration on this at the launch of production of Varunastra torpedo.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/anti ... 03783.html

Parrikar directed the DRDO not to have a hands-off approach now that they have developed the torpedo, and handed over the technology to BDL for production.

"You cannot be a hospital where a child is born. You will have to stay along at least till the child is able to stand up and run around," Parrikar said as he suggested placing a small DRDO team with state-run BDL for a limited period.

This is the reason for delays in production of Tejas, Pinaka, TAL, etc. And no amount of orders will eliminate the time required to make something production ready.

He rued that the light-wight torpedos did not come at par with the quality expectation of the navy.

Many members will face cognitive dissonance when reading the above comment from Manohar Parrikar

After all, there were reports of tests being successful. And so many tests. Has Mr. Parrikar fallen prey to the charms of Natashas? That is the standard BRF diagnosis for anyone criticizing indigenous.

No, the reason is making something work at labs and making it mass productionable is a whole new ball game. One can manufacture propellant of high quality in lab quantities at HEMRL Pune. Mass producing at same purity standards at BDL is the challenge.

The third design iteration will happen at IAF BRD to make the aircraft more maintenance friendly.

Even the Chinese face this - which is why the J-10 has never been exported - and Pakistanis are mum about JF-17 and their squadrons fly JF-17 and F-7 together to maintain pilot operational proficiency.

And Pakistanis are desperate for F-16s. When US denies them new planes, they buy third hand life expired fighters from Jordan. Shows how good the Chinese fighters are.

Seasoned designer + manufacturing agencies like Dassault or LM can combine the first & second design iterations, but only to a point. The F-35B had a bulkhead problem, F-35C had a slat problem that needed to be rectified.

Neshant wrote:foreign single engine fighter plane imports

Typically why HAL & IAF like this option is because it removes the first and second design iteration, that would've happened at the time and expense of the OEM and home country air force. The IAF is measured on operational parameters, not R&D. Its mandate is to defend the aerospace 24 x 7, not do R&D.

Even the Navy does this. INS Vishakhapatnam traces its lineage to Type 61M Kashin class hull. INS Shivalik is an evolution of Krivak 1, 2 & 3 hulls. And NDB help was taken in reducing a deck level from the previous class http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/04/ ... tened.html

Neshant wrote:IAF is hard at work destroying India's fledgling aerospace R&D base.

Pray, what can IAF do if 100 panels and 700 pipelines are not interchangeable and unfit for mass production?

Will 80 or 800 or 8000 orders cut down the time required to re-design the panels and pipes to make them fit for mass production? No

What the Chinese and Pakistanis are doing is building LSP or SP standard aircraft that are built one off and are a pain to maintain. Which is why J-10 has never been exported. JF-17 has two crashes and reasons are not disclosed.

J-20 doing a flypast means zilch. The F-22 did flypast in the 90's. It deployed to Turkey only in 201x, 20+ years after flypast.

The above information is in public domain, maybe you could read and understand instead of making an emotional rant.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Nov 2016 17:08

Tsarkar amazing post.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Nov 2016 17:13

Is there news on the J-20 regarding the following parameters

1) Composite material, FBW control software

2) Max speed with dry thrust

3) Weapons firing trial videos where are the internal carriage bays etc

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Nov 2016 17:30

tsarkar wrote:
Neshant wrote:IAF is hard at work destroying India's fledgling aerospace R&D base.
Pray, what can IAF do if 100 panels and 700 pipelines are not interchangeable and unfit for mass production?

. . .

Will 80 or 800 or 8000 orders cut down the time required to re-design the panels and pipes to make them fit for mass production? No

What the Chinese and Pakistanis are doing is building LSP or SP standard aircraft that are built one off and are a pain to maintain. Which is why J-10 has never been exported.

If the chini air force is willing to take 400 plus hard-to-maintain J-10s to advance their industrial base then WHY can't the IAF do the same for Tejas? Is the IAF less able to maintain aircraft with variances than the PLAF? Look at the immense variety we have in the Air Force, man!

If you do not order more then you basically do not give HAL any incentive to fix production issues. Why the hell would they bother if there is no future in it?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 01 Nov 2016 18:16

chola wrote:If the chini air force is willing to take 400 plus hard-to-maintain J-10s to advance their industrial base then WHY can't the IAF do the same for Tejas?

Are those Chinese aircraft operationally deployed? Atleast in Indian borders, they deploy Su-27 and Su-30. IAF is doing the same for Tejas in Sulur.

chola wrote:Is the IAF less able to maintain aircraft with variances than the PLAF? Look at the immense variety we have in the Air Force, man!

Wrong comparisons. Most aircraft in IAF or IN Service - Jaguar, MiG-21, MiG-27 and even Sea Harrier have well established support BRDs.

However, SP-1 will need custom build panels and pipes every time a part needs replacement. Similar planes in Chinese service never see operational deployment.

chola wrote:If you do not order more then you basically do not give HAL any incentive to fix production issues. Why the hell would they bother if there is no future in it?

HAL being Govt Owned never needed incentives to fix production issues. Its doing them none the less. The only impact of "fixing production issues" is the slow rate of production. There are sufficient orders - 20 IOC + 20 FOC + 80 Mk1A - to fine tune production.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Nov 2016 18:20

tsarkar wrote:What you or others don't realise is that an aircraft or missile or torpedo or anything else is designed three times.

The first time designers put something that tries to meet design specifications. That is Tejas IOC-2. However, it is not something that can be mass produced. Also, DRDO subcontractors build in lab quantities and cannot scale up. So production agency has to develop new subcontractors who can manufacture in an industrial scale.

The second design happens at HAL or BDL or OFB. The design is not the outer design but the inner design, which is why people dont notice.

I have written on this multiple times over the past 10 years on the exact same thing on multiple occasions on the VERY same thread. What the Tejas program is using is the traditional , "old as the pyramids" engineering methodology of the west , popularly known as the "Waterfall Method" with huge layers of Indian bureaucracy and artificial command control org driven idiocy thrown in.

This is all so 1930s. Even when I was in undergrad (I am middle aged now, RBose claims he is young, but he is not though..if I am middle aged), industry globally had moved on to Concurrent Engineering and Design for Manufacturability and the rage back then was things on the lines of "Total Quality Management" -TQM and other quality management systems. Indian industry (on civil side) made a massive leap in capability on these lines since the mid 80s (village idiots don't realise that and throw around same hackneyed nonsense of oh , we don't make an engine.. we do and pretty good ones , Tata is bad quality , Mahindra is bad.. no .. they are not. TVS and Bajaj suck.. no they are great in their product segments and right there with the best) . However, to do these, what is needed is HUGE SEAMLESS communication, open teams, integrated project teams with cross functional members, and a product focus.

tsarkar wrote: If 100 panels and 700 pipelines are not interchangeable, its simply not standardized for production.

That is also the reason why the first squadron is based at Sulur Coimbatore near Bangalore. Because parts will need to be custom built for SP-1, 2 & 3. No way those aircraft can be deployed to Jaisalmer or Tezpur for extended periods.

100 panels and 700 pipelines indicates a major internal redesign. Its almost akin to changing the circulatory system and skin of a human being while keeping outward looks intact.

That is what HAL is busy doing. Which is what BDL has to do for Akash and OFB for Pinaka.

Also, the KPA of DRDO labs does not include support while productionizing. Hence they have a hand's off attitude.

Any DRDO chap deputed to a production agency will lose out on promotion prospects at the lab since the time spent production-izing will not be counted as R&D, thus losing seniority.

Ah. NOW we come to the crux of the problem and I had written about this earlier. The STRUCTURAL problem we have is that we developed a "Soviet" style command and control org setup . The ADE/ADA/NAL /CSIR/Univs will do "research and development" while the "manufacturing" will be done by "HAL/Shipyards/OFB" .. The IAF /IA/Navy will be the swaggering "Pshaww.." -- "Koi Hai" Harrumping throwing weight types, who cannot build a screw or change a flat tyre if their lives depended on it . Throw in Huge Organisational egos , with a layer of IAS Baboons and Mantri Mahodays.. this is a god awful mess , both in the defence side and R&D on the govt PSU side (little wonder those heroes of yesteryears are mostly dead, except the monopolistic oil marketing sector) . Such a structure CANNOT succeed, despite herculean efforts.

tsarkar wrote:Parrikar directed the DRDO not to have a hands-off approach now that they have developed the torpedo, and handed over the technology to BDL for production.

"You cannot be a hospital where a child is born. You will have to stay along at least till the child is able to stand up and run around," Parrikar said as he suggested placing a small DRDO team with state-run BDL for a limited period.

But Parikkar is yelling at the WRONG guy here ! The problem is NOT DRDO , but rather STRUCTURAL. If you want to work ACROSS cross org boundaries, either you merge manufacturing and R&D under one roof and measure them on product output , AND put a product specific Program Management Office with strong powers (learn from the Brits, US and the West here, not the Sovietized fetish we had ) under IA, IAF and IN respectively to manage their projects using modern project management methodology and continuous engineering or whatever the modern version is.

Days of Laad Saab giving spending a night with a copy of Janes and and glass of Whiskey over an evening and reading up some stuff and then jotting down "preliminary" requirements and then look in after too years and then Harrumph and jump around just wont do.

This is the reason for delays in production of Tejas, Pinaka, TAL, etc. And no amount of orders will eliminate the time required to make something production ready.

NOT TRUE . Unless you pay upfront (and not dribble feed) and commit to quantities upfront on the product, you CANNOT have industrial partners and NO industrial partners, you WILL have only hand crafted "Khadi Gram Udyog" stuff. Forget it. They will NOT sign up for any concurrent engineering and also invest in tooling and production, if at the time of production, you take the specs of what they have developed and like the current practice , get "cute" and call for "open tenders" and dole it out to L1 (with dole and patronage on the side) .

The third design iteration will happen at IAF BRD to make the aircraft more maintenance friendly.

Refer to concurrent engineering. The IAF Chief will not come before FOC and Harrumph about "improvements" in capability and "maintainability" at the last minute. His team SHOULD be there along with the designers, telling about his when the design is on the CAD work station, along with the manufacturing guy!

Typically why HAL & IAF like this option is because it removes the first and second design iteration, that would've happened at the time and expense of the OEM and home country air force. The IAF is measured on operational parameters, not R&D. Its mandate is to defend the aerospace 24 x 7, not do R&D.

And HENCE can never develop anything worthwhile and will ALWAYS import and be held hostage and pay through their nose on the lines of the "For want of a nail.. a shoe was lost.. for want of a shoe........"

Pray, what can IAF do if 100 panels and 700 pipelines are not interchangeable and unfit for mass production?

FIRST, ACCEPT responsibility of piss poor project management skills and temprament with all humility and confess that they dropped the ball in their part of program management and that their active hostility and indeed sabotaging of the project deserves condemnation. Accept with all humility that they aren't the Gods when it come to designing and building aircraft and where their input was most needed (in terms of weapons fit, capability, ownership and maintainability etc) , the simply dropped the ball.

And this is the state when the Tejas program had a FSED stage and a TD stage , due to the insistence of the IAF.

Will 80 or 800 or 8000 orders cut down the time required to re-design the panels and pipes to make them fit for mass production? No

YES it will. Please refer to the previous lines.

What the Chinese and Pakistanis are doing is building LSP or SP standard aircraft that are built one off and are a pain to maintain. Which is why J-10 has never been exported. JF-17 has two crashes and reasons are not disclosed.

J-10 has been built in 100s. So perish the thought. It would be built on proper tools and jigs and will be well manufactured.

J-20 doing a flypast means zilch. The F-22 did flypast in the 90's. It deployed to Turkey only in 201x, 20+ years after flypast.

Ah.. But the J10 is in it's 3rd Gen. They have deployed 2 earlier Gens. The F16 went from Blk A to BLk V (which we want to buy). But the IAF and IA are "single" block customers. All they can do, is take a budget and go and shop in the global arms bazaar for a product that fits their wants. Perish the thought that the French went from Rafale A/B to the current offering , or the Typhoon was inducted into service with a concrete in the nose where the Radar should have been and both the Rafale and the Typhoons (and also F16s) don't have active arrays in their home service, but the IAF wants an LCA to be inducted into service in strength with an ASEA radar! Talk about asking for the moon, when YOU cannot even have the grace to accept at IOC that the plane is maturing , but stood at the sidelines sniping and waiting for the other guy to fail, while you could go on a shopping junket. SHAME.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 01 Nov 2016 18:27

Good post Tsarkar, but the point is that HAL has been working simultaneously with DRDO on LCA for only 35 years, hence there is no excuse for additional delay. HAL "installed" capacity is 4 LCA per annum presently and keeping in view general competence of HAL, they will not manage more than 2-3 in 2017-2018. My guess is that the first squadron of 20 IOC will not be completed before 2020-21.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Nov 2016 18:36

J-20 doing a flypast means zilch. The F-22 did flypast in the 90's. It deployed to Turkey only in 201x, 20+ years after flypast.

The first production F-22 flew in 1997. The early 90's saw the flight of a technology demonstrator in support of the ATF program design down select. The aircraft passed IOC in 2005 and was rotating OCONUS a couple of years later. It performed its first Bear intercept in 2007 while on a NORAD mission out of Alaska.