LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 15 May 2017 20:47

nvishal wrote:My guess is that they take it apart completely and use the parts on the upgraded prototype. This also makes economic sense. Wonder why they'd leave a million dollar engine resting on an old prototype at the hanger for years. Simple logic says that they are using it again and again.

Your guess is very wrong here. It is not that simple. Test vehicles are highly regulated because of the risks involved. Clearances have to be sought for every flight. The higher the change, the higher the level of clearance required. If you swap out engines, you will be stuck with getting clearances rather than doing test flights.

They don't swap out engines out of prototypes and test vehicles.

Actually, it is not just test vehicles. Have you ever wondered why fighters in squadron services fly so often with empty pylons?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tsarkar » 16 May 2017 10:49

Adding to my earlier post - when one uses under development systems on under development platforms, the risk and delay increases exponentially. Any issue in one impacts the other.

So UD system like Astra will use a proven platform (Su-30, Bars) and UD platform (Tejas) will use proven systems (Derby).

When Kaveri is ready, it'll be most likely tested on a MiG-29 or Rafale test bed rather than Tejas with the second engine providing for safety.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Khalsa » 16 May 2017 10:57

on that tsarkar.

the people that matter should procure some old Mig-29 airframes from mother Russia (deweaponised) for testing Kaveri.
I am sure they will some old IL76 airframe as well for modification as flying test bed.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 16 May 2017 23:52

srai wrote:
nvishal wrote:...
I have yet to see 2+ tejas fighters in one room. ...


Image
Image
Image


What nonsense.... I still see no rooms. Only open spaces and a shed... Will never work.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Luxtor » 17 May 2017 16:58

^^^
LOL...how big are the rooms in your house? :rotfl:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 17 May 2017 18:07

There are 11 LCAs on this ... and it fits in a box :idea:
Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 17 May 2017 18:28

6 LCAs in a hanger
Image

(last post on this matter :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 17 May 2017 19:18

srai wrote:6 LCAs in a hanger
Image

(last post on this matter :)

One is outside. Only 5 inside :P

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Baikul » 17 May 2017 19:24

shiv wrote:
srai wrote:.......
One is outside. Only 5 inside :P


Plus,given the TFTA nature of the hangar and planes, this is clearly an Area 51 scene from the movie Independence Day.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 May 2017 20:23

Marten wrote:>>I have yet to see 2+ tejas fighters in one room.

TejaS main hoon, woh Mark (1A) hai! :rotfl:
Props: "Teja main hoon, mark idhar hai' "

Reminds me of the bollywood movies with the theme of duplicates

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2017 04:14

What happened to AESA radar tender? Submission was last month.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 22 May 2017 18:37

5 LCAs in some IAF Base at some unknown locations.. (Source - DFI)

https://ibb.co/gwaSOF

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2017 18:44

Is it unknown? :wink:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby PratikDas » 22 May 2017 21:22

ashishvikas wrote:5 LCAs in some IAF Base at some unknown locations.. (Source - DFI)

https://ibb.co/gwaSOF

Thank you, Ashish!

Is there any evidence, even anecdotal, to suggest that it might be possible to scramble the LCA faster than any other fighter aircraft in the IAF?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 22 May 2017 21:31

Elementary my dear Vasan. Why would 5 LCAs sit together in a desert environment? When did they do that? Pokhran of course? And to borrow a popular song

Mera naam hai Bangalore. Log pyar se mujhe Bengaluru kehte hain
Aur tumhara naam kya hai? Srinagar, Gwalior, Bhopaaaaal yaaaaaaa Jaisalmer
<di ding ding>

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby PratikDas » 23 May 2017 01:11

PratikDas wrote:Is there any evidence, even anecdotal, to suggest that it might be possible to scramble the LCA faster than any other fighter aircraft in the IAF?

Answering my own question...
Maintainability
For the IAF, which must mount multiple missions every day with each Tejas fighter, easy "maintainability" and "low turn-around-time" are key attributes. The HAL chief says the IAF wants the fighter to take maximum 14 minutes between landing after a mission; and taking off for the next mission, fully checked, rearmed and refuelled. Currently, the Tejas takes about 20 minutes.


Do we know from public sources how much time other fighter aircraft in the IAF inventory take?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 23 May 2017 06:39

What the report speaks of is "turnaround time" not time to scramble. As far as my knowledge goes - scramble times could be as low as 2 minutes in fully fueled and ready aircraft. There are many IAF accounts of that - I read an account recently of a sqn commander ordering that his pilots practice to be ready to be in the cockpit, strapped up and taxiing within 2 minutes of a call. In another account there was a friendly competition between a Gnat pilot and a few Hunter squadron pilots where the Gnat pilot gave the Hunters a 10 minute lead time and still was up there at 5000 feet to greet them

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby PratikDas » 23 May 2017 08:00

Thank you, Shiv ji. I did confuse turn around time and time to scramble.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 May 2017 11:55

scramble time of 4 minutes has been demonstrated on the Tejas.

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Re: Scrambling Time for fighters

Postby Abhibhushan » 23 May 2017 13:11

I do not think any fighter ever will beat a Gnat on this count.

1. 20 seconds for the pilot to jump in strap up and close the canopy
2. 25 to 30 seconds for the engine to spin up and stabilise
3. 10 to 15 seconds to enter the runway and align on the take off path
4. 20 to 25 seconds to get airborne and clean up

1 minute and 25 seconds for the smart boys. Average squadron lad used to make it easily at 1 miniute 45 seconds .
For a scramble from cockpit readiness just deduct the first item and be happy with 1' 25". :D

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Neela » 23 May 2017 13:16

shiv wrote:What the report speaks of is "turnaround time" not time to scramble. As far as my knowledge goes - scramble times could be as low as 2 minutes in fully fueled and ready aircraft. There are many IAF accounts of that - I read an account recently of a sqn commander ordering that his pilots practice to be ready to be in the cockpit, strapped up and taxiing within 2 minutes of a call. In another account there was a friendly competition between a Gnat pilot and a few Hunter squadron pilots where the Gnat pilot gave the Hunters a 10 minute lead time and still was up there at 5000 feet to greet them


I recall reading a <2min scramble time during the Atlantique incident.


Edited to add reference.
http://www.thebombaybugle.com/defence/b ... -incident/

Within 2 minutes both the pilots were airborne in their MiG-21 BIS fighters. The MiG-21 back then was the mainstay of the Indian Air Force – a beautiful flying machine, probably the best dog-fighter of the 70s and 80s but plagued in India by poor maintenance problems leading it to be dubbed the “Flying Coffins”. As the 2 birds roared onto the right course for interception, Sqn. Ldr. Bundela could now identify the Pakistani aircraft by its heat signature. After some time he could see its markings clearly. It was a Pakistani Navy (PN) Breguet Atlantique from the No. 29 Squadron. Atlantiques are a reconnaissance aircraft but also have the capability to fire Anti-ship missiles.


Added BRF's own article.
Two MiG-21 fighter interceptors of No.45 Squadron, which were on operational readiness at the IAF base at Naliya in Kutch, were brought to a higher state of scramble alert as the track approached the IB. When the track crossed the international border the first time at approximately 10:57 hrs, both the interceptors were scrambled, getting airborne at 10:59 hrs.


Timeline:
10.57 - Intrusion.
10.59 - Migs airnorne
< SOP for intruders performed>
< PAki bravado continues>
11.17 - R-60 hits intruder Atlantique on left engine.
New few mins:Atlantique spirals out of control and crashes

Allah was really pleased to see some of his followers in heaven.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 23 May 2017 15:31

PratikDas wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Is there any evidence, even anecdotal, to suggest that it might be possible to scramble the LCA faster than any other fighter aircraft in the IAF?

Answering my own question...
Maintainability
For the IAF, which must mount multiple missions every day with each Tejas fighter, easy "maintainability" and "low turn-around-time" are key attributes. The HAL chief says the IAF wants the fighter to take maximum 14 minutes between landing after a mission; and taking off for the next mission, fully checked, rearmed and refuelled. Currently, the Tejas takes about 20 minutes.


Do we know from public sources how much time other fighter aircraft in the IAF inventory take?


Not relevant for scramble or turn-around time, but good data point for maintainability and sortie rate perspective - 2 LCAs have conducted total 7 sorties in a day (was is Sulur AF base..?). I think this I read in one of the ADA reports. Away from home base of HAL, this is impressive feat.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gyan » 23 May 2017 18:25

I understand even in intense wars like 1971 or nowdays in Syria, average sorties an aircraft undertakes is 1 to 2 only per day.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 23 May 2017 21:34

There is a difference between the number of sorties that a plane may be used for for in a day versus the number of sorties a pilot may be called upon to do in wartime. It would be unusual for a fighter pilot to do more than 1-2 sorties a day except in exceptional circumstances (eg Longewala). But the aircraft themselves may be rotated and used by more than one pilot and may therefore end up being involved in more sorties per day.

But a helicopter pilot - such as those who flew missions for the Meghna and Sylhet airlifts may do 6 or 7 sorties in a single session in a day.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 May 2017 21:42

Gyan wrote:I understand even in intense wars like 1971 or nowdays in Syria, average sorties an aircraft undertakes is 1 to 2 only per day.


Depends upon who you are looking at and what missions they are supporting. At times sortie #s don't mean as much if you are doing long duration sorties, or are using IFR and maintaining orbits.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 May 2017 23:43

Kartik wrote:scramble time of 4 minutes has been demonstrated on the Tejas.


The exact quote from ADA's Annual report from 2016. ORP scramble achieved a time <4 minutes and further refinement is in progress.


Typical Operational Readiness Point (ORP) scramble practiced on Tejas (LSP7 & LSP8). Time achieved less than 4 minutes. Further refinement is in progress.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 May 2017 23:51

Gyan wrote:I understand even in intense wars like 1971 or nowdays in Syria, average sorties an aircraft undertakes is 1 to 2 only per day.


Though not right comparison but even in Indian commercial aviation, DGCA says Pilots can do up to 3 landings on domestic flights everyday.

1 or 2 sounds low for a war scenario.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gyan » 24 May 2017 00:01

Commercial aircraft fly 6000 hours a year, fighters 200 hours.

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Re: Scrambling Time for fighters

Postby tsarkar » 24 May 2017 00:11

Abhibhushan wrote:I do not think any fighter ever will beat a Gnat on this count.

1. 20 seconds for the pilot to jump in strap up and close the canopy
2. 25 to 30 seconds for the engine to spin up and stabilise
3. 10 to 15 seconds to enter the runway and align on the take off path
4. 20 to 25 seconds to get airborne and clean up

1 minute and 25 seconds for the smart boys. Average squadron lad used to make it easily at 1 miniute 45 seconds .
For a scramble from cockpit readiness just deduct the first item and be happy with 1' 25". :D

Sir, it's good to have you back in the forum and we look forward to your PoV in various military matters given your rich operational & System Integration experience.

My maternal side was also from Jessore, great grandfather was station master and grandfather retired as Financial Advisor & Chief Accounts Officer in Northern Railways. My parents, now in their 90's, love reading your blog.

My apologies to others for the OT

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 24 May 2017 03:37

No OT there!
We all love to hear Abhibhushan garu.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby PratikDas » 24 May 2017 04:08

Kartik wrote:
Kartik wrote:scramble time of 4 minutes has been demonstrated on the Tejas.


The exact quote from ADA's Annual report from 2016. ORP scramble achieved a time <4 minutes and further refinement is in progress.


Typical Operational Readiness Point (ORP) scramble practiced on Tejas (LSP7 & LSP8). Time achieved less than 4 minutes. Further refinement is in progress.

Excellent! Thank you.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Brad Goodman » 24 May 2017 18:15

Can I ask a dumb question here? Is Govt considering Tejas MK1 for Army Aviation Wing? Army has limited set of requirements for what it needs. Tejas can easily meet/exceed all those requirements of air defense role as well as domination as required. Army can never get imported fixed wing aircrafts ever because it is too costly but LCA can be affordable. Same goes with Navy if they think it cannot meet their needs for carrier based aircraft it can still meet their land based aircraft needs. If they have their own squadrons in places like Andaman's they can provide great support to fleet movements in the area. Same in Lakshadweep, Off Saurashtra coast even say in future they decide to use a foreign port they can station few birds there for quick response and recon. It also helps create a dedicated pool of trained pilots and maintenance crew who can easily ramp up to more capable fighter plane as it shows up on horizon. Are we thinking out of box to better use the resources we currently have or are we going to sulk over resources that do not meet our current requirements.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ragupta » 24 May 2017 18:39

Brad Goodman wrote:Can I ask a dumb question here? Is Govt considering Tejas MK1 for Army Aviation Wing? Army has limited set of requirements for what it needs. Tejas can easily meet/exceed all those requirements of air defense role as well as domination as required. Army can never get imported fixed wing aircrafts ever because it is too costly but LCA can be affordable. Same goes with Navy if they think it cannot meet their needs for carrier based aircraft it can still meet their land based aircraft needs. If they have their own squadrons in places like Andaman's they can provide great support to fleet movements in the area. Same in Lakshadweep, Off Saurashtra coast even say in future they decide to use a foreign port they can station few birds there for quick response and recon. It also helps create a dedicated pool of trained pilots and maintenance crew who can easily ramp up to more capable fighter plane as it shows up on horizon. Are we thinking out of box to better use the resources we currently have or are we going to sulk over resources that do not meet our current requirements.


I think IA need can be met by few 100 LCH.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Brad Goodman » 24 May 2017 20:35

Can you please help me understand why do you think LCH is sufficient for Army? Like I said for Navy even Army if it has a small but dedicated combat planes they can radically alter their strategies, especially in light of cold start. I would love even BSF to have a fleet of LCH. Airforce needs to be looking at larger picture in combat and these small Aviation wings would take over tactical lifts.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby rohitvats » 25 May 2017 11:16

I'm actually surprised people on BRF are not aware about Operational Readiness Point (ORP).

Every front-line airbase maintains about 2 fighters on 24 x 7 ORP; these scramble under 2-minutes from the word go.

Take a look at any IAF airfield in western sector - you'll see aircraft shelters right under 100 meters from runway at either end of the runway. These shelters have direct access to the runway and house the fighters on ORP.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 25 May 2017 11:46

rohitvats wrote:I'm actually surprised people on BRF are not aware about Operational Readiness Point (ORP).

Every front-line airbase maintains about 2 fighters on 24 x 7 ORP; these scramble under 2-minutes from the word go.

Take a look at any IAF airfield in western sector - you'll see aircraft shelters right under 100 meters from runway at either end of the runway. These shelters have direct access to the runway and house the fighters on ORP.

Thanks Rohit. Deejay had an interesting story on this very thread in its previous avatar:
Quoting the entire post for those wishing to enjoy it:
deejay wrote:
I have a good story about this. This meaning use of helicopters for UAV. In the story I am suitably modifying the names of places, pilots, aircraft, controllers, formations etc for no reason what so ever.

Back in 2002, post Op Parakram, things slowly limped back to normal until the ceasefire was agreed to, which was also abnormal in a way.

Those days, somewhere in northern sector, namely Jammu, I was posted in a Mi 17 unit. Among other things, my unit was tasked to man helicopter ORP (Operational Readiness Platform) for UAV incursions from Pakistan to India. Just before I had come in to the unit, one of our unit helicopter had come face to face with a Paki UAV. As it happened, without any weapons, all one can do is formation flying and that is what this helicopter did. Soon, the Paki radar picked up the MI 17 and the UAV turned and flew back in to Pakistan. Our helicopter too came back. Back on ground, the Captain of the aircraft got some solid firing from one and all -

"You idiot, you let it go? :twisted: "
"What could I have done? :eek:
"Why didn't you throw something at it, your gunner (loadmaster) could have done it? :evil: "
"What could I have thrown? :-? "
"Your briefcase maybe? :x "
"But my briefcase had my overnight kit" :((

Afterwards, everybody :rotfl: for a long time.

But, the story doesn't end here. As the wise ones say - never laugh at others, it may happen to _______

So, one year plus later, the poor soul who had done formation flying with a Paki UAV was long posted out and folks had forgotten about the incident. Most of the unit was out flying. It was around 1600 hrs. Amos (Code name)and me were hanging around waiting to call it a day and hit the bar (Bravo Alpha Romeo). Just then the phone rang - the red one. The one which should not ring. I was the junior so I dived for the phone. Peacock (another code name) literally shouted from the other side -"ORP launch". I recognised the voice from the radar unit and said " Peacock - we are not on ORP today". Peacock said " You want me to tell that to the Makkhan (codename for Paki UAV)" and I replied "Are you sure it is not Ghee (codename for Indian UAV)" Peacock said " Will you bloody launch".

07 minutes was ORP activation time if one was on ORP; we found an aircraft, got the ground crew and got airborne in 09 minutes when we were not on ORP. Not bad, not bad at all. Except, we were unarmed. Both Amos and me were very sure that we would not see anything as on so many other occasions. You see, the Paki radars would pick up the Mi 17 on take off from Jammu and their UAV's would turn back in to their airspace.

Anyways, this time our radar controller, Peacock, vectored us into the sunset, i.e. due West straight towards the IB. We were below 1000 ft planning a zoom climb close to 'Makkhan'. Suddenly, I saw something and I shouted "Cobra". Amos, started peering all around "What, snake in cockpit?" and I said "No you genius - Huey Cobra, 12 O'Clock, 02 Kms, same level". Amos was on controls and the turn he executed would shame a TACDE HCL. And as we were turning, I saw the Huey do the same and high tail it as fast as he could.

"Peacock, confirm vectoring us to Makkhan?" "Ofcourse, why have you turned?" "Peacock, request urgent meeting at Bravo Alpha Romeo, 1900 hrs sharp. Everythings on you." "Err .... but ... okkk"

And we came back - the whole welcome committee was there - CO, COO, Stn Cdr, Radar CO, Flt Cdr, STO, Security Offr, etc, etc. And the CO let us have it:
CO "WTF happened?" :twisted:
Amos "I don't know, but there was a Cobra" :eek:
CO "WTF, Cobra?" :evil:
Me " Huey Cobra" 8)
CO"Are you sure it was not a flock of birds?" :lol:
Amos "Positive" :-?
CO "So why did you not go after it" :x
Amos "And do what" :-o
Me "And Sir, we would have crossed the International Border" :P
CO "And you might have won an Ashok Chakra ..." :lol:
Stn Cdr "Or not" :lol:
Flt Cdr" For now, go to my office, write down a written warning for failing to carry out duties and sign them" :D
CO "Flt Cdr, march these two bloody jokers up tomorrow to my office" and then they all went :rotfl:

P.S.: That idiot Peacock is yet to keep his appointment at Bravo Alpha Romeo.
P.P.S.: Peacock had indeed vectored us to a flock of birds, which is not so rare. What is very rare that the Paki radar controller had vectored its helicopter to the same flock of bird thinking it was an Indian UAV, or so we guessed.
P.P.P.S.: I am positive that even the Paki was unarmed though, today I am not positive that it was a Huey Cobra. :)


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 25 May 2017 12:00

rohitvats wrote:I'm actually surprised people on BRF are not aware about Operational Readiness Point (ORP).

Every front-line airbase maintains about 2 fighters on 24 x 7 ORP; these scramble under 2-minutes from the word go.

Take a look at any IAF airfield in western sector - you'll see aircraft shelters right under 100 meters from runway at either end of the runway. These shelters have direct access to the runway and house the fighters on ORP.


Didn't know the exact technical term. But I thought its implied that IAF would maintain such readiness on the frontline bases all the time, for interception. And similar but may be little less stringent readiness level on other key AF bases for interception of any un-identified bogie.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 26 May 2017 00:06

X-posting...

Karan M wrote:http://news4security.com/posts/2017/02/aero-india-2017-rafael-scores-big-in-airborne-sdrs/

Aero India 2017: Rafael scores big in airborne SDRs

17th February 2017 – 12:58 by Gordon Arthur in Bangalore

Aero India 2017: Rafael Scores Big In Airborne SDRs

......
Yaniv Rotem, business development and marketing manager for the air superiority systems division, said Rafael is offering a suite of weapons for India’s indigenous Tejas light fighter[3]. These include Derby Mk III and Python-5 missiles plus the SPICE family of guided munitions (250, -1000 and -2000). The IAF already operates the SPYDER[4] SAM system, so outfitting the Tejas with the same Derby and Python-5 missiles would allow each other’s stockpile to be fully exploited. The Derby Mk III is an Indian version of the beyond-visual-range I-Derby ER. The improved missile with longer 100km range was unveiled two years ago at Aero India, and it features a dual-pulse rocket motor and software-defined radio frequency seeker.

The Tejas has already been successfully configured to carry baseline Derby missiles, and it is believed that the IAF is evaluating this missile type in competition with the MBDA Meteor and Raytheon AIM-120D. The SPICE 250, mounted on a quad rack and offering a 100km range, is currently undergoing acceptance testing in Israel. Rotem said it offers better range, accuracy, penetration and frangible effects than the 500-pound Mk 82 bomb. It can be used independently thanks to a data link and automatic scene-matching, or it can combine with a Litening pod to hit moving targets on land or sea. Both the Litening 5 navigation and targeting pod and the Lite Shield[5] electronic attack pod for close protection and escort jamming are on offer to India.

......

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nachiket » 26 May 2017 02:49

Marten wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I'm actually surprised people on BRF are not aware about Operational Readiness Point (ORP).

Thanks Rohit. Deejay had an interesting story on this very thread in its previous avatar:

:rotfl: :rotfl: Hilarious! But what was the point of maintaining these Mi-17 ORP's? What were the poor pilots actually supposed to do if they spotted an intruder? Didn't we have anything that could actually shoot on the base?

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Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 26 May 2017 07:10

^^briefcase could have been thrown..


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