LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

[K_Rohit]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From the annual report above, a small tidbit caught my attention.

"One Derby BVR missile was fired in the
unguided mode, successfully over the sea
at an altitude of 30000 ft & 0.8 mach to
study separation and plume characteristics.
Python-5 CCM was not fired as
vibrations were experienced at 0.9 mach.
Analysis of test results is in progress"

Anyone heard more on this?

[tsarkar]

Something on program management, with a more recent success -

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdu ... story.html

Retired Rear Adm. Thomas J. Cassidy Jr., who shepherded General Atomics Aeronautical Systems from a tiny startup to a leading maker of drone aircraft for the military, has retired as president of the Poway company.

Dave Fulghum, a defense analyst with Aviation Week magazine, said the Predator platform is the most successful UAV program to date. He credits Cassidy with getting the drone off the ground by building the first ones the way the company thought was best, without waiting for the Pentagon to mandate features.

“He knew enough about the military and Navy acquisition system to know if you built what they asked for, you’d go broke,” Fulghum said. “Instead, you create something that is useful as possible, is scalable and can have things tacked onto it.”

The drones, which today carry everything from surveillance and communications equipment to missiles, got their start in Bosnia in the mid-1990s, under the auspices of the Central Intelligence Agency, Fulghum said.

“That was really tight relationship, which was another extremely clever thing for him to do,” Fulghum said. “It was easier for the military to step in after all that work had been done on the intelligence budget.”

Cassidy, a Vietnam combat veteran, served in the Navy for 34 years, including duty as commander of Miramar Naval Air Station when it was a Top Gun school. When makers of the 1986 Tom Cruise movie needed a gruff character to play the role of a Navy admiral, Cassidy was chosen for a bit part in the film.

[ramana]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From the annual report above, a small tidbit caught my attention.

"One Derby BVR missile was fired in the
unguided mode, successfully over the sea
at an altitude of 30000 ft & 0.8 mach to
study separation and plume characteristics.
Python-5 CCM was not fired as
vibrations were experienced at 0.9 mach.
Analysis of test results is in progress"

Anyone heard more on this?

This was discussed at that time around March this year? However cause was not known. It could be flutter at Mach 0.9.

[Dileep]

Folks.. sorry to bring bad news again. Apparently, this MII eff-up solah has poisoned the waters terribly. MK2 injins are here, but people don't know what to do with them. Nothing is sanctioned. Nothing is moving. The only good thing that happened is, several scientists got promoted to Sc-H!!

Meanwhile, question to all the Scientist-CH here. ("Scientist - Chair" is the grade at DRDO/ADA equal to the rank of "Chair Marshal" in IAF). What would be the challenges in integrating the IFR probe?

The only good thing I have personally is, some little "science project" that I proposed is getting some traction.

[srai]

Folks.. sorry to bring bad news again. Apparently, this MII eff-up solah has poisoned the waters terribly. MK2 injins are here, but people don't know what to do with them. Nothing is sanctioned. Nothing is moving. ...

Seen this too many times

[tsarkar]

Folks.. sorry to bring bad news again. Apparently, this MII eff-up solah has poisoned the waters terribly. MK2 injins are here, but people don't know what to do with them. Nothing is sanctioned. Nothing is moving. The only good thing that happened is, several scientists got promoted to Sc-H!!

This is what happens when Finance Minister runs the show. Why invest in two similar fighters? Someone like Manohar Parrikar who could've made a case for indigenous technology to Arun Jaitley and Narendra Modi is no longer in the picture.

Scientists too are kept happy by promotions.

I heard this rumor about six months back, NaMo wants to portray he has improved IAF before 2019 elections, and Rafale and F-16 are his way of doing it. NaMo desperately needs US support at NSG and now against China. IAF loves US & French logistics and comprehensive training syllabus. Sadly, the Tejas gets a raw deal.

IAF is like kids going to US Ivy League Universities vis-a-vis those going to new IIT/IIMs. Faculty/Infrastructure is not up to strength and no 100% placements, so despite a IIT label, they're unemployed. I'm sure 5-10 years down the line, these institutions would be great, but that would be of no help to the kids now.

Atleast GoI is still investing in new IITs unlike the Tejas program.

A bit like George Fernandes buying Gorshkov as TINA since previous governments did nothing after old INS Vikrant decommissioning and Kargil and Op Parakram suddenly occurred.

We never learn as a nation. Even nationalistic politicians I voted for are screwing Indian interests. Frustrating!

[disha]

^^ Sometimes - one has to take tactical retreat to push forward a strategic goal. India cannot fight all battles alone. It needs allies.

[NRao]

Folks.. sorry to bring bad news again. Apparently, this MII eff-up solah has poisoned the waters terribly. MK2 injins are here, but people don't know what to do with them. Nothing is sanctioned. Nothing is moving. The only good thing that happened is, several scientists got promoted to Sc-H!!

They have been saying they do not have enough resources to work on the MK2.

As far as funding, the MK1A needs to be funded and completed ahead of the MK2. So where is the MK1A?

What would be the challenges in integrating the IFR probe?

Real estate.

But, have they not accomplished this?

[YashG]

We never learn as a nation. Even nationalistic politicians I voted for are screwing Indian interests. Frustrating!

There are no nationalistic politicians - just politicians. Just like business, politics is a different type of business with an outsized CSR department & captive customers.

[Bala Vignesh]

Folks.. sorry to bring bad news again. Apparently, this MII eff-up solah has poisoned the waters terribly. MK2 injins are here, but people don't know what to do with them. Nothing is sanctioned. Nothing is moving. The only good thing that happened is, several scientists got promoted to Sc-H!!

Meanwhile, question to all the Scientist-CH here. ("Scientist - Chair" is the grade at DRDO/ADA equal to the rank of "Chair Marshal" in IAF). What would be the challenges in integrating the IFR probe?

The only good thing I have personally is, some little "science project" that I proposed is getting some traction.

Well that was the fear when the discussion on the F16 line started!! May be Arun Jaitley needs to just stand up and say to Modi that he needs to get a full time DefMin in place to sort out this issue. The offer of the F16 line just as the Mk2 gets rollin is highly suspect in timing I feel.

As far as the integration of IFR goes, i believe there would be the aerodynamics issue first followed by structural issues of finding enough space to route the requisite plumbing​ in an easy and hassle-free manner.

[NRao]

??????

viewtopic.php?t=7263&start=1560#p2114245

Feb, 2017. LSP1

[Prasad]

Meanwhile, question to all the Scientist-CH here. ("Scientist - Chair" is the grade at DRDO/ADA equal to the rank of "Chair Marshal" in IAF). What would be the challenges in integrating the IFR probe?

Getting in close, maintaining stable flight behind the tanker, plumbing equipment good enough to refuel as quickly as possible and then disengage flawlessly and get out of the way. Could be anywhere. Any hints?

[negi]

We never learn as a nation. Even nationalistic politicians I voted for are screwing Indian interests. Frustrating!

Actually this is one area where even good 'politician' can fail as too many facets need to come together to make Tejas a success. It will need politicians in MOD who can give HAL a much bigger role at the table with more authority to use funds. It will also need MOD to call for IAF to be involved with the program in a much more formal way where there are incentives for people to succeed as well as repercussions of failing same with HAL. It will need top brass in IAF which has interest in Tejas's success akin to what IN has had in surface ships . Programs like Tejas cut across tenures of multiple service chiefs so it cannot be left to mercy of few individuals IAF as an institution needs to be brought into the indigenous fighter AC program as a stakeholder currently Tejas is just a science project for IAF where officers get deputed to it on a fixed tenure. Finally it will need a HAL which would work on Tejas as if it's life depended on it , I think all maintenance work which HAL undertakes needs to be assigned to a separate entity (split the org) whoever or whichever team works on Tejas or fighter AC development in general should focus on only that , one cannot be involved in 10 things and deliver them all it's a fundamental aspect of product development.

[gauravsh]

Noob pooch - If major problem with Tejas concerns our manufacturing ability and also the transition from a r&d project to production, why can we not have a single institution taking care of the whole cycle.
Ruskies has Sukhoi and Mig competing between them but both r&d and production were handled by the same guys.

P.S.
I am nanha mujahid scared of opening my mouth on this dhaga.

[srin]

Folks.. sorry to bring bad news again. Apparently, this MII eff-up solah has poisoned the waters terribly. MK2 injins are here, but people don't know what to do with them. Nothing is sanctioned. Nothing is moving. The only good thing that happened is, several scientists got promoted to Sc-H!!

This is what happens when Finance Minister runs the show. Why invest in two similar fighters? Someone like Manohar Parrikar who could've made a case for indigenous technology to Arun Jaitley and Narendra Modi is no longer in the picture.

Much as I admired MP, this joke of single engine fighter procurement started during his tenure.

[brar_w]

The idea was no doubt developed during MP's term and is merely being followed by the current RM -

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... roFeN.html

[NRao]

X quoting my own post from SE thread:

1) LCA Mk1 :: GE F404 IN20 :: Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar ............................ In production
2) LCA-MK1A :: GE404 IN20 :: Elta + HAL EL/M-2052 AESA radar ............................. Some elements completed (???)
3) LCA-MK2 :: GE F414 INS6 :: (DRDO?) Uttam (1 of 8 engines - delivered) .................. TBD
4) NLCA-MK1A :: GE F404 IN20 :: ????? ............................................................... Mature, discontinued(?)
5) NLCA-MK2 :: GE F414 INS6 :: Uttam (EOL platform) (2 of 8 engines - delivered) ........ Cancelled after tech demo
6) LCA MKXX :: Kaveri with Safran assistance :: (Any radar - so assume Uttam) ............ Hope they write the manuals in English

7) AMCA (tech demo?) :: GE F414 INS6 :: Uttam++(?) (made that up). 3 AMCAs could be powered by 6 INS6 engines GE will deliver - soon.

8 ) AMCA (prototypes) :: GE F414 INS6 "enhanced" :: Uttam++

9) F-16

10) F-18

I had stated before that even the IAF will cancel their LCA MK2 "interest". So, if what Dileep says is true, then all it means is that the entire MK2 stream is not being inducted.

But, that still leaves the MK1A stream, including the one with the French Kaveri engine.

And, even with the MK1A, IF (big if?) they can reduce weight, that lighter weight LCA MK1A should be around teh capabilities of the MK2.

I think they will produce at least 200 "LCA"s and continue to upgrade them to the new MK2 standards. I would not be surprised if they produce more than 200 LCAs.

In addition I fully expect 200 F-16 to complete the "Light" category.

And around 100 F-18s (plus the 36 Rafale) to make up the "Medium".



I think it is time to move ADA to full time AMCA - a naval and AF version. And, if I can dream a SE AMCA - ALCA.

[srai]

^^^
Don't wake up from your dream

[Philip]

If we can't produce a decent LCA Mk-whatever no.,it's a fool's paradise to expect us to develop a 5th-gen/6th-gen stealth bird when we haven't even mastered a basic light fighter MIG-21 Bison+ std.! No engine,no radar,wanting full IP rights,stealth tech for any deal for the FGFA,how are we going to develop the AMCA? Secondly,the AMCA in current config. has serious limitations on size of weaponry that can be carried in its weapons bay.A larger bomber version/new design is far better prospect esp. if some deal-even a Rafale type deal comes out of all the FGFA deliberations,the FGFA being afar more weapons -delivery capable bird than a much smaller AMCA.Even the ACM's AMCA expecttations are post 2030.What do we do for the decade in-between?

[tsarkar]

The idea was no doubt developed during MP's term and is merely being followed by the current RM -

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... roFeN.html

Srin, Brar,

MP's vision was to fund Mk1A, Mk2, Mk2 Navy AND induct a single engine fighter to make up for MMRCA shortfall - as cited in the link.

The difference NOW is that Tejas is directionless and without funding since he left.

[srai]

If we can't produce a decent LCA Mk-whatever no.,it's a fool's paradise to expect us to develop a 5th-gen/6th-gen stealth bird when we haven't even mastered a basic light fighter MIG-21 Bison+ std.!

Phrase used was MiG-21++ ... missing that important extra +

[tsarkar]

What would be the challenges in integrating the IFR probe?.

With regards to inflight refuelling probe, we've done it - in chronological order - for Mirage 2000, Jaguar retractable & fixed, Sea Harrier, MiG-29UPG, starting with CFD studies jointly with OEMs to actually retrofitting the equipment and flight testing. Very easily doable.

Unless new challenges have emerged in 1. Internal plumbing and 2. Flight dynamics not detected during CFD studies.

[Philip]

+++ if need be!

[NRao]

.
The difference NOW is that Tejas is directionless and without funding since he left.

Why is it directionless? Mk1 is in production and no one has said the the Mk1A is a no go.



Let me say this, for the world's largest democracy, Indian politicians (talking of India only), behave like some Masters, descendents of some Sun God.

srai,

Hope that dream only has that one craft.

[nirav]

The idea was no doubt developed during MP's term and is merely being followed by the current RM -

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... roFeN.html

Srin, Brar,

MP's vision was to fund Mk1A, Mk2, Mk2 Navy AND induct a single engine fighter to make up for MMRCA shortfall - as cited in the link.

The difference NOW is that Tejas is directionless and without funding since he left.

I remember Sh.Arup Rahas press conference when this decision for mk1a was announced.
from his replies it was clear to me that MK2 might not see light of day.
He was just keen about the LCA and wanted them inducted ASAP.

we must not forget that the mk1a was born out of ADA/HALs realisation that they will not be able to meet their own timelines wrt mk2.Hence a souped up 1000 KG weight reduced MK!a with AESA and SPJ was proposed.

since then, theyve sat in water wrt the 1000 KGs weight reduction. There is *no clarity* on how much weight reduction they will indeed go after and achieve.

I had highlighted in the SE thread of a Sukhoi being used to shoot down a paki balloon. That it was used because the balloon was close to the base are just excuses for the failure of LCAs timely production and delivery.

people repeatedly keep talking about 200/300/400 odd LCAs building local MIC.

Id genuinely like to ask - what is the benefit of such a MIC which goes on to contribute to an inferior product ? We have people comparing MK2 with Gripen E - NG .. the MK2 is JUST A PAPER PLANE.Maybe even god doesnt know when it will fly. They will probably start retiring bandars and early gripens by the time the MK2 hits squadron service.
and yes, the radar,engine,actuators,MFDs,weaponry,HMD,Ejection seats,radome will still be foreign .. what is the POINT ?

this whole ADA/DRDO/HAL circus needs to be given a serious review.
Rather than AMCA, they should probably focus on just MCA and get that inducted ASAP rather than engaging in yet another decades old tareekh pe tareekh with the AMCA.

the requirement back in the 80s was 200 LCA + 20 Trainers. we havent heard much on the IOC/FOC of the trainers yet.

[abhik]

The idea was no doubt developed during MP's term and is merely being followed by the current RM -

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... roFeN.html

Srin, Brar,

MP's vision was to fund Mk1A, Mk2, Mk2 Navy AND induct a single engine fighter to make up for MMRCA shortfall - as cited in the link.

The difference NOW is that Tejas is directionless and without funding since he left.

He also wanted a double engine MII fighter while being open to signing up for FGFA. Don't know if he was BSing or the Goan stuff he was smoking was especially strong.

We were also told that there were going to be significant orders for Arjun tank by some chaiwalls, now we know that ain't happening, we just signed up for more tin cans.

MP was definitely better than than the likes of AKA but I don't get the need to put him in a pedestal and shift blame for the turds he left.

[nirav]

I disagree.
MP is solely responsible for keeping the LCA alive with the mk1a compromise.
Had that not been done, we would have ended up seeing the whole decades worth 'effort' into a technology demonstration project.

[Zynda]

Hence a souped up 1000 KG weight reduced MK!a with AESA and SPJ was proposed.

since then, theyve sat in water wrt the 1000 KGs weight reduction. There is *no clarity* on how much weight reduction they will indeed go after and achieve.

A 1000 Kg weight reduction involves significant change in stiffness of airframe components. Will need extensive engineering, testing (ground & flight) to revalidate...heck the certification authorities may demand recertification. I doubt Mk.1A will include significant weight reduction. Some of the reduction may come from using lighter secondary structures and avionics.

[nirav]

Hence a souped up 1000 KG weight reduced MK!a with AESA and SPJ was proposed.

since then, theyve sat in water wrt the 1000 KGs weight reduction. There is *no clarity* on how much weight reduction they will indeed go after and achieve.

A 1000 Kg weight reduction involves significant change in stiffness of airframe components. Will need extensive engineering, testing (ground & flight) to revalidate...heck the certification authorities may demand recertification. I doubt Mk.1A will include significant weight reduction. Some of the reduction may come from using lighter secondary structures and avionics.

Indeed.
Theres a need to hold the people responsible for making such tall claims to account.
They make promises of all sorts. couple years down the line, once they've gotten the orders for mk1a, they will come and tell IAF, sorry saars 1000KGs reduction nawt paasible in the given timeframe.
bliss to accept as is.

what will the IAF do ?

[Cain Marko]

I had stated before that even the IAF will cancel their LCA MK2 "interest". So, if what Dileep says is true, then all it means is that the entire MK2 stream is not being inducted.

But, that still leaves the MK1A stream, including the one with the French Kaveri engine.

And, even with the MK1A, IF (big if?) they can reduce weight, that lighter weight LCA MK1A should be around teh capabilities of the MK2.

I think they will produce at least 200 "LCA"s and continue to upgrade them to the new MK2 standards. I would not be surprised if they produce more than 200 LCAs.

In addition I fully expect 200 F-16 to complete the "Light" category.

And around 100 F-18s (plus the 36 Rafale) to make up the "Medium".

I think it is time to move ADA to full time AMCA - a naval and AF version. And, if I can dream a SE AMCA - ALCA.

I think it will be Rafale instead of f18, especially if 200 16s are bought and kaveri comes through with French.

Yes, it is time to move to AMCA

[Manish_Sharma]

^^^
Don't wake up from your dream

No dream. Just different standards for american maal.

I might get kicked out for repeating one example too many times:

"Rafale would be too obsolete, too outdated from 2036 onwards, so don't buy/manufacture here in Desh; just lease them till 2036 !

Now we have not only f16 but f18 too for IAF. Same poster is vying for these two more advanced and un-obsoletable a/vs then Rafale. We must manufacture them here and they won't be obsolete even in 2070.

[JayS]

Hence a souped up 1000 KG weight reduced MK!a with AESA and SPJ was proposed.

since then, theyve sat in water wrt the 1000 KGs weight reduction. There is *no clarity* on how much weight reduction they will indeed go after and achieve.

A 1000 Kg weight reduction involves significant change in stiffness of airframe components. Will need extensive engineering, testing (ground & flight) to revalidate...heck the certification authorities may demand recertification. I doubt Mk.1A will include significant weight reduction. Some of the reduction may come from using lighter secondary structures and avionics.

An ADA person told me during AeroIndia that HAL is quite confident on 800kg number. I never believed one bit on that figure until then. But lets not forget HAL has designed majority of LCA subsystems and they have better idea about the weight reduction potential. Lets see how much they can actually reduce now.

Regarding this Single engine, Twin engine MII jets, I always felt MP never really wanted it and was never comfortable with it. It was more like the decision was taken at PMO level (maybe with feedback from all stakeholders in picture) and imposed on MoD that this is to be done. How is MoD to decide. The way he has always maintained from his early days as RM until the end of his tenure the position on these MII projects, I feel the decision of buying one SE and one TE jet has been taken quite a while ago by Modi himself, in 2015 itself. All that is left now with others is how to execute the things.

[sankum]

The LCA 16/year production line will not remain idle after 2025. It is just not economical to close the production line. Either LCA mk1a or mk2 production will continue.

While SE fighter production @12-20/year in 2020-30 timeline if 120nos-200nos is the likely order while Su 30 line will close down in 2020.

[RKumar]

Come on HAL, we need your support now then ever .... God speed and deliver LCAs/Su-30/Dhruv/LCH .... as fast as you can ....

[NRao]

CM,

F-18 is coming. No two ways about that. Cannot discount the USN contribution for the carrier. People will be surprised.

JayS,

Wow! A couple of observations.

There is a 2015 article which claims HAL surprised both ADA and IAF by declining to participate in the Mk2 effort. HAL's reason: the reduction in weight for the Mk1A should place that plane around the recs for Mk2. (HAL needs to be part of any solution, but can go it alone on the Mk1A. As you state HAL is responsible for many parts or sub systems.)

Secondly, "my understanding" is that the major problem HAL is facing for the Mk1A is finding space for placing the cooling unit for the AESA radar. One of the problems with the PCS is real estate. And that problem is rearing its head to throw a wrench into their plan.

[Kartik]

Hence a souped up 1000 KG weight reduced MK!a with AESA and SPJ was proposed.

since then, theyve sat in water wrt the 1000 KGs weight reduction. There is *no clarity* on how much weight reduction they will indeed go after and achieve.

A 1000 Kg weight reduction involves significant change in stiffness of airframe components. Will need extensive engineering, testing (ground & flight) to revalidate...heck the certification authorities may demand recertification. I doubt Mk.1A will include significant weight reduction. Some of the reduction may come from using lighter secondary structures and avionics.

it doesn't involve ANY weight reduction. On the contrary, a very slight weight gain, due to the higher weight of the AESA and its cooling. I don't know where this "1000 kg weight reduction" rumour started off. Certainly not from the HAL Chairman, Suvarna Raju, who in an interview with India Strategic clearly stated that the then Tejas Mk1P would be net 50 kgs heavier

link

The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos

[nirav]

Kartik Saar,
The 1000Kg reduction was not a rumour when Mk1A was announced.. I remember making a post then that it could be a journo error in which they might have said 1000 pounds and not kgs, which seems plausible btw.

If indeed that's not going to happen, then what's the difference between mk1 and Mk1A ?
Just the radar and spj?

This is in contrast to what JayS ji posted. Without weight reduction, there is no significant difference between mk1 and Mk1A..

Edited mistake in quoting poster.

[Zynda]

Karthik, a significant weight reduction number was definitely thrown around for Mk.1A...even then we had similar discussions about the challenges involved in achieving that number. Seems like a ADA person at AI 2017 has confirmed their intentions of significant Mk.1A weight reduction to JayS as well.

I am not aware of this Mk.1P variant...

JayS, I hope they can pull it off...will be awesome engg feat especially if they stick to the proposed schedules as well.

[ramana]

Wasn't the under carriage over designed?
There was some weight loss there too.

[NRao]

Unless I missed it, what about the weight of the old radar?

The article Kartik posted seems to only trade the ballast for a radar + EW systems.