LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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srai
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 26 May 2017 08:15

^^^

The IAF didn't have Gaurd back then otherwise one or two Gaurd could have been carried as a sniper.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Sid » 26 May 2017 09:12

srai wrote:^^^

The IAF didn't have Gaurd back then otherwise one or two Gaurd could have been carried as a sniper.


Sniper for UAV? Unless that gun is from Mobile Suit Gundum, its as good as throwing a suitcase 8)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Manish_P » 26 May 2017 11:12

A high caliber AMR could inflict serious damage on a UAV and even bring it down, especially the types the Pakis have

IMHO however a better bet would be a machine gun in the door.. better chance of hitting a moving target whilst being on a shaky moving platform yourself, especially when you dont have a marksman on board

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby pandyan » 26 May 2017 11:44

Throw a net like catching fish and bring back home

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 26 May 2017 12:13

nachiket wrote:
Marten wrote:Thanks Rohit. Deejay had an interesting story on this very thread in its previous avatar:

:rotfl: :rotfl: Hilarious! But what was the point of maintaining these Mi-17 ORP's? What were the poor pilots actually supposed to do if they spotted an intruder? Didn't we have anything that could actually shoot on the base?
Because there is nothing else. IF ORP is not there then a) Pak will feel we dont respond and b) media and some on BR would say..what is IAF doing

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tsarkar » 26 May 2017 15:09

^^ My understanding is Mi-17s do carry a window MMG that can adequately down Falco/CH-1 type UAV deployed by Pakistan. However, if logistics taskings are high, then the MMG might be removed to save space/weight/crew. Boom mounted 23mm gun pods and 57 mm rockets too are not installed as standard for the same reason.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Sid » 26 May 2017 17:37

tsarkar wrote:^^ My understanding is Mi-17s do carry a window MMG that can adequately down Falco/CH-1 type UAV deployed by Pakistan. However, if logistics taskings are high, then the MMG might be removed to save space/weight/crew. Boom mounted 23mm gun pods and 57 mm rockets too are not installed as standard for the same reason.


I think the payload is determined by mission profile.

If the goal of ORP is to intercept, then why they are not armed adequately?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 26 May 2017 19:58

Ok. How about we get back to topic of LCA?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 26 May 2017 21:00

Let me help with some great news.

LRDE has issued an RFP for the modification of LCA SP1 Mk1 aircraft to fit and test Uttam. The modifications will be done on LSP 2 and LSP 4. They foresee 20 sorties to test air-to-air mode (in phase 1) and 180 sorties to test air-to-sea mode (in phase 2). They are targeting to finish phase 1 in one year after signing the contract (most likely with HAL).

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 26 May 2017 21:04

Indranil wrote:Let me help with some great news.

LRDE has issued an RFP for the modification of LCA SP1 aircraft to fit and test Uttam. The modifications will be done on LSP 2 and LSP 4. They foresee 20 sorties to test air-to-air mode (in phase 1) and 180 sorties to test air-to-sea mode (in phase 2). They are targeting to finish phase 1 in one year after signing the contract (most likely with HAL).


Balle balle...Thank you saar..Looks like Uttam program is going as planned.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 26 May 2017 21:08

Indranil wrote:Let me help with some great news.

LRDE has issued an RFP for the modification of LCA SP1 aircraft to fit and test Uttam. The modifications will be done on LSP 2 and LSP 4. They foresee 20 sorties to test air-to-air mode (in phase 1) and 180 sorties to test air-to-sea mode (in phase 2). They are targeting to finish phase 1 in one year after signing the contract (most likely with HAL).


Great News !!

Do you mean, LSP1, LSP2 & LSP4 all 3 planes will go modification ?

Indranil, what happened to AESA tender for MK1-A ? any information which can be shared to us ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 26 May 2017 21:12

Indranil , A curiousity question. Why does LRDE have to issue a tender to seek proposals to install the radar on the LCA SP series? HAL built the craft and they are owned by govt. So why go through another delay and cost for this effort?

Who owns LSP 2 and 4? ADA or IAF or who?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 26 May 2017 21:39

ashishvikas wrote:
Indranil wrote:Let me help with some great news.

LRDE has issued an RFP for the modification of LCA SP1 aircraft to fit and test Uttam. The modifications will be done on LSP 2 and LSP 4. They foresee 20 sorties to test air-to-air mode (in phase 1) and 180 sorties to test air-to-sea mode (in phase 2). They are targeting to finish phase 1 in one year after signing the contract (most likely with HAL).


Great News !!

Do you mean, LSP1, LSP2 & LSP4 all 3 planes will go modification ?

Indranil, what happened to AESA tender for MK1-A ? any information which can be shared to us ?

I meant LCA Mk1 aircraft. The modifications would be done to LSP2 and LSP4.

I don't know about the AESA radar for Mk1A. And even if I knew, how could I divulge it here. It has to come from an official source first.

ramana wrote:Indranil , A curiousity question. Why does LRDE have to issue a tender to seek proposals to install the radar on the LCA SP series? HAL built the craft and they are owned by govt. So why go through another delay and cost for this effort?

They have a threshold beyond which they have to issue an open tender for transparency. The cost of this contract must be above that threshold. So they have to go through this unnecessary hassle.
ramana wrote:Who owns LSP 2 and 4? ADA or IAF or who?

ADA.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 May 2017 01:24

This is amazing news. Finally an Indian owned FCR. And LRDE will only move ahead. I hope MOD continues to support such programs and drive self reliance in this field. 150km for LCA class system with fully functioning modes and local reprogrammability. Now scale that up to Su-30 size.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 27 May 2017 03:00

How many hours did they run this puppy on the Avro hack?b Any open source information>?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 May 2017 03:23

I don't think they do it on the Hack anymore..its rooftop testing for A2A targets (lookup mode). And of course the algorithms would be helped by all the AEW&C testing & the Naval surveillance radar ..

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 May 2017 03:25

This is the new avionics testbed (http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dpi ... e/nabh.pdf) BUT DRDO badly wanted a supersonic testbed...they wanted an IAF Sukhoi or one built for them...some beancounter must have sat on that.. for $60-80 Million.. effectively the cost of say 20 AESA fighter radars..

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 27 May 2017 05:08

Wouldn't the hack have been better than Dornier?
More space etc. Why did we move away from the AVRO test bed?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 27 May 2017 10:17

Cybaru wrote:How many hours did they run this puppy on the Avro hack?b Any open source information>?


I was told, they in AI2017 have tested a small scale AESA radar for entire dev cycle including flight testing on a Helicopter platform. Since this is scaled up system and SW would remain essentially the same for majority of its part for RADAR modes, the only part that is untested as far as HW and SW testing is concerned is the Flight envelop that can only be covered with an aero-plane i.e. high speed. Thats why they were very confident that it would take them only a year to debug the SW once the testing starts.

Having an aircraft, even small civilian jet would have helped them cover some of that envelop. But they don't have a dedicated platform, I suppose. But lets not forget the experience gained from the Netra AWACS also has gone into this project as well.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby chetak » 27 May 2017 11:39

ramana wrote:Indranil , A curiousity question. Why does LRDE have to issue a tender to seek proposals to install the radar on the LCA SP series? HAL built the craft and they are owned by govt. So why go through another delay and cost for this effort?

Who owns LSP 2 and 4? ADA or IAF or who?


I faced a similar situation once.

The HAL buggers charged a very hefty fee, running into tens of lakhs, claiming to be design authority or some such crap for a license built aircraft after we did a mod, built and installed it. The effers provided zilch support except sending some clown DGM with outstretched hand to "collect" the money from us.

needless to say we refused to pay.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 30 May 2017 04:07

JayS wrote:
Cybaru wrote:How many hours did they run this puppy on the Avro hack?b Any open source information>?


I was told, they in AI2017 have tested a small scale AESA radar for entire dev cycle including flight testing on a Helicopter platform. Since this is scaled up system and SW would remain essentially the same for majority of its part for RADAR modes, the only part that is untested as far as HW and SW testing is concerned is the Flight envelop that can only be covered with an aero-plane i.e. high speed. Thats why they were very confident that it would take them only a year to debug the SW once the testing starts.

Having an aircraft, even small civilian jet would have helped them cover some of that envelop. But they don't have a dedicated platform, I suppose. But lets not forget the experience gained from the Netra AWACS also has gone into this project as well.


I would think the AVRO would allow them to test this over water and land and for many more hours would crew comfort baked in. It would allow easier instrumentation as well. So how come the AVRO isn't the go to platform for testing? Its great they are testing on LCA now, but just curious.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 30 May 2017 11:51

^^^

DRDO set to acquire DO-228 as the new Flight Test Bed | HAL set to roll out modified Dornier

Image

Tuesday, March 18, 2014
By Anantha Krishnan M
Express News Service

Bangalore: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is all set to acquire a new flight test bed (FTB) in the form of a modified and custom-made Dornier (DO-228) aircraft. The DRDO hopes to reduce the dependency on foreign agencies to carry out the tests, once the desi FTB is rolled out. The platform, being manufactured by Kanpur-based Transport Aircraft Division (TAD) of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), will likely to be with the DRDO by the first week of April. With all modifications, the FTB is expected to cost over Rs 100 crore.

DRDO sources tell Express that many industries and government firms were on the hunt for a suitable platform to undertake standalone tests of critical components and systems. With the increase in indigenous aeronautical activities within the country, the initial plan was to go for a foreign aircraft and later equip it with Indian systems. "Embraer was one of the candidates we looked at. Generally the test and design data of an imported aircraft are not shared owing to the proprietary clause. We couldn't have flown our own FTB without knowing these details either. So the plane to import was shelved and DO-228 was the automatic choice. HAL's TAD Kanpur have all the expertise available with them in manufacturing the Dorniers," an official said.

With the arrival of a new FTB, DRDO hopes that the development time for various projects will come down. "The FTB will come handy for all airborne system evaluations. We hope to test all systems of Tejas, unmanned air vehicles on the FTB. In addition, radars, antennas, radio altimeters, data links and ATOL systems (automatic take-off and landing) will now take the FTB route. So far some limited Indian radars were tested with Israeli help," the official said. DRDO has put two consoles on the yet-to-be-named FTB, with the potential for adding two more.

The new FTB is expected to serve the needs to DRDO for the next 20 years. Currently, the Centre for Airborne Systems, DRDO lab, operates an Avro for limited tests. The new FTB will be on the rolls of Electronics & Radar Development Establishment, another DRDO lab, and it will be flown by the Test Pilots from Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment of the Indian Air Force.


Image
Last edited by srai on 31 May 2017 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Eric Leiderman » 31 May 2017 08:38

Hoping that within the next 5 years the army will get the go ahead to buy 2 squadrons of LCA for CAS duties.( With the F35 CAS is getting a new meaning compared to the warthog.) Leaving aside the political wrangling between the the forces. As missiles and smart bombs get cheaper ,smaller, and more widespread, Our army should get networked with their own airwing at the platoon level, the LCA will be an excellent bird for supporting them, please concentrate on the first word of this post, because that is all it is (a snowballs chance of survival in hell.)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Khalsa » 31 May 2017 11:03

@Eric ....

you are using the US Marines blueprint.
I am afraid this won't happen.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby PratikDas » 01 Jun 2017 10:56

Cross-posting from the Indian Military Aviation thread:

Sputnik: India Inaugurates Aeronautical Test Range for Next Gen Fighter Jets, UAVs
29.05.2017
Soon to be home to India’s ongoing aeronautical projects, Defense Minister Arun Jaitley inaugurated the newly-built 2.2-km-long aeronautical test range (ATR) [runway] of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The ATR, which is situated in the southern state of Karnataka, will have its runway extended in the near future by another kilometer.

The ATR is the first of its kind range in the country exclusively meant to conduct flight-tests of indigenous unmanned and manned aircrafts, developed by the DRDO including the naval and trainer versions of the Light Combat Aircraft, the unmanned air vehicles- Rustom-I and Rustom-II (Tapas); the airborne early warning & control systems (AEW&C), air-to-ground weapons, parachutes and aerostats, etc," a statement issued by India's Defense Ministry said.

It is considered that most of the trial of light combat aircraft Tejas will be conducted here from now onwards. Spread across 4,029 acres, the 28-kilometer perimeter strategic test range envisages a 2.2-kilometer runway besides other tracking and control equipment.

"We have a neighbor who has been perpetuating security threats for the past seven decades as far as India is concerned. And therefore our level of defense preparedness should be optimal, as it always is. And if your level of defense preparedness is always to be optimal, you need to eventually establish facilities that, to a large extent, can be manufactured within the country," Arun Jaitley said.

Last November, Indian scientist had successfully carried out the test flight of Tapas 201 (Rustom-II), a medium altitude long endurance (MALE) UAV at the ATR.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 01 Jun 2017 11:34

Cybaru wrote:
JayS wrote:
I was told, they in AI2017 have tested a small scale AESA radar for entire dev cycle including flight testing on a Helicopter platform. Since this is scaled up system and SW would remain essentially the same for majority of its part for RADAR modes, the only part that is untested as far as HW and SW testing is concerned is the Flight envelop that can only be covered with an aero-plane i.e. high speed. Thats why they were very confident that it would take them only a year to debug the SW once the testing starts.

Having an aircraft, even small civilian jet would have helped them cover some of that envelop. But they don't have a dedicated platform, I suppose. But lets not forget the experience gained from the Netra AWACS also has gone into this project as well.


I would think the AVRO would allow them to test this over water and land and for many more hours would crew comfort baked in. It would allow easier instrumentation as well. So how come the AVRO isn't the go to platform for testing? Its great they are testing on LCA now, but just curious.


I cannot comment on that, I didn't ask about this.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gyan » 01 Jun 2017 16:30

Somewhat like T-50 programme of South Korea, we should start developing LCA as an AJT with (non after burning low powered) Kaveri engine. As a competing programme we should have CAT (something like YAK-130) based on twin HTFE-25 engines.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gyan » 01 Jun 2017 16:39

It is easier to have new wiring and new gadgets in a New House (Dornier), rather than stripping & rebuilding an old house (Avro)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby titash » 01 Jun 2017 23:44

Given the government's support of the Akash SAM system (multiple successive orders for the Army and IAF - Jaitley just passed over imports and gave Akash a 18,000 crore order this week), one hopes that the 40 + 83 Tejas orders is just the tip of the iceberg and that we'll see over 300-400 birds in Indian colors once the platform matures.

After all if the MiG-21 can fly for 50+ years worldwide, no reason a successively updated Tejas can't do the same. The Pakis won't be flying F-22s, F-35s, J-20s, or J-31s anytime soon...and definitely not in quantity.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 02 Jun 2017 00:43

Has SP6 flown? Been seeing regular flights but unable to make out.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nirav » 02 Jun 2017 03:02

Gyan wrote:Somewhat like T-50 programme of South Korea, we should start developing LCA as an AJT with (non after burning low powered) Kaveri engine. As a competing programme we should have CAT (something like YAK-130) based on twin HTFE-25 engines.


It depends on the French.they need to deliver on their offset promise of having a Kaveri powered flight of the LCA. Iirc, the stipulated time frame was - within the year.

Fingers crossed- all a jingo can do.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gagan » 02 Jun 2017 18:25

They are developing the HTFE-40 for the Jaguar reengine!
Wow! very nice HAL.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Jun 2017 19:57

Just asking, why nt induct Tejas in place of Hawk.

IAF's aerobatic Hawk jet deal stuck for 2 years. Here's why http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indian-air ... 67928.html

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nirav » 02 Jun 2017 21:14

ashishvikas wrote:Just asking, why nt induct Tejas in place of Hawk.

IAF's aerobatic Hawk jet deal stuck for 2 years. Here's why http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indian-air ... 67928.html


Combat fleet needs trump aerobatic squadron needs.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 03 Jun 2017 04:41

JayS wrote:I cannot comment on that, I didn't ask about this.


Thanks for Info though! Much appreciated!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2017 05:54

titash wrote:Given the government's support of the Akash SAM system (multiple successive orders for the Army and IAF - Jaitley just passed over imports and gave Akash a 18,000 crore order this week), one hopes that the 40 + 83 Tejas orders is just the tip of the iceberg and that we'll see over 300-400 birds in Indian colors once the platform matures.

After all if the MiG-21 can fly for 50+ years worldwide, no reason a successively updated Tejas can't do the same. The Pakis won't be flying F-22s, F-35s, J-20s, or J-31s anytime soon...and definitely not in quantity.


Titash, well said. I am not going into many details, but the Akash is a truly world-class system. All that motivated FUD to claim IA must & should have got something else had many loopholes in it. There is stuff in Akash, which is pretty ingenious & which several foreign vendors have not incorporated. Also, in the past few years DRDO has had breakthroughs in stabilized EO sensors which can be added to systems like Akash. IMHO, the way forward now is clear, Akash, followed by QRSAM & no more ad hoc purchases of imported stuff, which doesn't work, because we didn't sign some small line item in the overall agreement, and hence if some capacitor blows, the OEM has to be paid extra to replace it, because it blew one month after warranty & the amount asked will be huge, and the eqpt will languish.

This is an IA Config Akash
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QHt9GVAUa6Q/ ... giment.JPG

So basically, 6 batteries, each with 4 launchers, 2 radars.
Another radar at command unit.
So this order is effectively for 48 launchers, 26 radars, and another bunch of C3I plus maint vehicles. Big boost for indian industry and IA combat power.

It will then be replaced by the homegrown QRSAM.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hq4uPQeLLKc/ ... Poster.JPG
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M1BUFCyN7DI/ ... AAAAAAAMfQ
/u5zqdMwaMR46EC88kKM-pg-8VsM9EA9DACLcB/s1600/QR-SAM%2BBMFR.jpg
http://thestrategictimes.com/breaking-q ... fications/

The QRSAM will do two huge things. Stabilize the Astra production line given commonalities between the two - so seeker production will get a fillip. And second, the X/C Band TRM production will also pick up.

These two items in particular have huge ramifications. I am glad the MOD is basically finally taking the leadership and reducing the import fixation India has got stuck in for decades. We would neither get TOT (of the real kind) from these acquisitions, and serviceability is a constant challenge. Now, Indian firms - public & private stand ready
Compare & contrast the attitude of even a DPSU HAL and BAe in this episode.
viewtopic.php?t=334

Another huge ramification event has been IN clearing project samudrika. It will literally lay the ground for state of the art ESM in DLRL and BEL, plus private sector. Varuna can detect LPI signals & as that tech flows to DARE, it literally will give a new breath of life to IAF's Su-30 fleet and other 4G aircraft, if their RWRs can be upgraded to digital units (if DR-118 program works) and keep them relevant in a world of JSFs and F-22s.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2017 06:38

ashishvikas wrote:Just asking, why nt induct Tejas in place of Hawk.

IAF's aerobatic Hawk jet deal stuck for 2 years. Here's why http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indian-air ... 67928.html

I would be cautious about this news item given that the media simply produce "stories" to stay relevant. As an aside that is one of the most boring and uninteresting news items I have read recently with shit like "cost increase" and "file went missing". This is the crap that is vomited in ALL Indian reporting be it a murder, cheating, love affair or defence news. Publishing such stuff that can be copy pasted from one news item to another reflects the pathetic caliber of our reporting - not just defence reporting. I wish I had not clicked the link at all. I am no wiser and am nowhere closer to knowing anything new.

We need a totally new paradigm for defence reporting that goes beyond incompetent nincompoops writing irrelevant bullshit of the sort in that "news item". It is also OT for the LCA thread

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jamwal » 03 Jun 2017 12:50

OT

Regarding those Mi17 missions, when I lived in Jammu , those helicopters were in sky almost everyday. Most of the times in clean config, but very rarely with external rocket or maybe machine gun pods.

At that time , I just though those were training and resupply flights. Now I know that they were something else too.

Our side operated UAVs a lot too. It was not uncommon to hear the shrill noise of a low flying UAV but was very hard to spot one. I always wondered why couldn't they make these drones less noisy.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 04 Jun 2017 02:38

Gagan wrote:They are developing the HTFE-40 for the Jaguar reengine!
Wow! very nice HAL.

Wow! What's the source of the info?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gagan » 04 Jun 2017 05:37

Kartik wrote:
Gagan wrote:They are developing the HTFE-40 for the Jaguar reengine!
Wow! very nice HAL.

Wow! What's the source of the info?

This article mentions them developing an engine with a 35-40kN thrust

http://idrw.org/aero-india-2017-htfe-25-hindustan-turbofan-engine-25-fired-up-at-full-thrust-hal/


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