LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 04:01

^^ Ohh its VEM not WEM as has been written in every single news item I saw regarding that new plant in AP. Thanks for that.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 04:08

Admiral, tensions are already simmering over the OROP issue. IMHO, forcing the Tejas to the IAF, will not be received well. Regarding war, after Uri & GOI response, I think the gloves are off against TSP. Perhaps not now, but in 4-5 years time who knows. I suspect IAF/IA/IN preparedness is a key issue now being tracked at PMO level. Supposedly they were amongst first to make presentations on state of affairs to Modi post him coming into power. Now, I still dont agree with the 90 aircraft MII stuff. IMHO its rubbish. Buy double the Rafales, guarantee the spares, invest the rest in Tejas and that may still get you a deal with the AF.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 04:09

This buying 36 Rafale and 90 MII is penny wise pound foolish stuff. Double the investment in base infra, TOT costs and who knows what else.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 04:12

Exactly! Just double the Rafale order and end this tamasha of another 90 single engine aircraft. It is amazing...whine and complain that there is no money to fund the LCA or order extra Rafales. But another new phoren toy and money just magically appears.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 04:17

IAF seems to prefer Gripen NG. Jokes on us, since proven Gripen NG will be available years from now and it will end any plans for Mk2. Brazil with Raven AESA was told better part of next decade to even get that kit up and running. ANd now they are proposing us a new radar which will be magic. No ARM. No integration of multiple weapons currently on IAF aircraft, we do all that inhouse with Tejas.

And F-16? All very nice till we decide to smack TSP. Then the fun will begin. Spares will run dry.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 04:19

Karan M wrote:Modi and Parrikar inherited a disaster.
.
.
But BJP political capital is not infinite.


Fully agree on these points. We see such hue and cry being raised on every stupid issue and make it look like its a political suicide by BJP, when in reality most of the times its only mis-information being peddled. Modi have to be conscious of political implications as he has to win 2019 and we cannot blame him for that, since he could only do good for Desh if he remains in power.

Only problem is Aerospace investment in relatively long terms. And every delay results in opportunities being lost. Pity as a country we cannot concentrate on the single most important thing which contributes highest to the comprehensive national power for whatever reason. I hope to see Railway type transformation and investment levels in Defense/Aerospace at least after 2019.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 04:20

Rakesh wrote:Exactly! Just double the Rafale order and end this tamasha of another 90 single engine aircraft. It is amazing...whine and complain that there is no money to fund the LCA or order extra Rafales. But another new phoren toy and money just magically appears.

+1

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 04:23

That video - Shekar Gupta apart - needs to be put at the beginning of every Tejas thread in BRF. For all newbies like myself to dispel any myths about the program. The confidence shown by Air Commodore K A Muthana and HAL Chief - T S Raju - is mind blowing.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2016 07:21

Kartik wrote:Link to the 'Walk the talk' show on NDTV

Walk the Talk with team of HAL

Good video.

For me the new info was the statement that LCH -"first limited sqn" will be formed in 2018. That is good news - because MD Raju has been very reserved when he refers to LCH - the only statements I hear are "Weapons integration going on as per user requirements" and I have heard this on 2-3 diff occasions from diff sources. Have firm orders been placed for LCH at all?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sankum » 15 Oct 2016 07:34

65nos for IAF and 97nos for IA but I think the test pilot got LCH mixed up with Rudra.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sankum » 15 Oct 2016 07:37

For make in India it seems MOD is just bargaining on price points as leverage. It is either 80nos Rafale or 120nos Gripen/F16 with Sukhoi30 production to end in 2020 and may be 80nos more LCA order to take the figure to 200nos. Things will be clear by March 2017.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2016 08:11

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby hanumadu » 15 Oct 2016 08:14

Karan M wrote:IAF seems to prefer Gripen NG. Jokes on us, since proven Gripen NG will be available years from now and it will end any plans for Mk2. Brazil with Raven AESA was told better part of next decade to even get that kit up and running. ANd now they are proposing us a new radar which will be magic. No ARM. No integration of multiple weapons currently on IAF aircraft, we do all that inhouse with Tejas.

And F-16? All very nice till we decide to smack TSP. Then the fun will begin. Spares will run dry.


Going with Gripen NG may turn out to be good, especially if it results in delays. That way there will be more time for Tejas mk1A and mk2 to come good. If domestic industry ramps up, just cancel the orders. Kinda works with f16 too.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sankum » 15 Oct 2016 08:15


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Oct 2016 08:26

hanumadu wrote:Going with Gripen NG may turn out to be good, especially if it results in delays. That way there will be more time for Tejas mk1A and mk2 to come good. If domestic industry ramps up, just cancel the orders. Kinda works with f16 too.

The individual aircraft - Block 70 and NG - themselves may have their strengths and weaknesses, but both are bad for the Tejas. Only in India will we willingly malign a perfectly good desi plane for something phoren. For all the weaknesses the JF-17 Fundaar has, I have yet to see a single PAF officer - retired or serving - put it down. In India, we have many retired officers who do the exact opposite...Air Marshal Matheswaran comes to mind. Those links I posted in the Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc thread...they way they extol the virtues of the Fundaar is like there is none like it.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sankum » 15 Oct 2016 08:33

For Indian retired officers one thing is true, price be dammed, desi product be dammed. We want the best and the country has to pay through its nose as defence is a holy cow.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Pratyush » 15 Oct 2016 08:44

Are people on brf forgetting the Arjun vs T 90 saga. when they call for a make in India forign fighter, over any iteration of Tejas.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 15 Oct 2016 08:45


It is VEM, not WEM as reported. The site is offline atm: http://www.vemtechnologies.com/

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kakarat » 15 Oct 2016 12:03

shiv wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cuxmp1NUAAM37EK.jpg


It seems the Refueling probe is being integrated into LSP-8 and not LSP-7 as said by CMD in the video

ADA has released more photos in LCA Tejas FB Page

Image

Image

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 12:44

sankum wrote:For Indian retired officers one thing is true, price be dammed, desi product be dammed. We want the best and the country has to pay through its nose as defence is a holy cow.


Acchaa - you met everyone and you speak for all of them?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 12:50

Bhaskar_T wrote:Shekhar - "Can we go up and look from top". After climbing up, CMD to Shekhar - "Why don't you sit in"

CMD instructs like a teacher - "First, put your hands here, put both the hands here"

...


This is required for first timers/untrained people. Those are ejection seats there. Mistakes are not good. That CMD could go there and handle that shows how hands-on he is with that project.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 12:54

Karan M wrote:...

OROP agitation is not yet fully done - money is required there as well.. let alone things like BMD, this, that..



Karan, no disagreements, but a correction. OROP did not have IAF invested in it and there is no question of MOD requiring any political capital with IAF.

OROP was a veterans issue, contested and argued by those who have retired. Serving members were at best info addressees only.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 15 Oct 2016 13:08

Not sure if this video was posted here. This is the "Walk the Talk" by Shekhar Gupta with ADA director CD Balaji and scientist Girish Deodhare (Chief who has led control laws). The video is obviously for abduls but I like the confidence and enthusiasm which these people have in Tejas.

Balaji explains that it has 6 weapon stations (3 on each side), 1 centre-line station (BVR missile, fuel carrier tanks) and one laser-sighter. He goes on to say that tandem pylon bomb testing has been effectively tested in Jaisalmer, i.e. (2 X 1,000 pound bomb on 2 stations. Total 4,000 pound bomb drop)

Girish explains that Tejas has complete carefree maneuvering & currently can go to 8G with further opening up on envelope will be done soon (we are optimising G's and AoA). Balaji adds that Tejas is a multi-role aircraft. It is the most unstable aircraft in the world.

I learnt a new thing that Tejas computer automatically changes the configuration of control laws once the bombs are dropped. They explained that computer exactly knows which weapons are on-board and say when 1/2 A2G bomb is dropped, the computer will automatically change the control laws so that for remaining (say return to home), the aircraft can defend (A2A) in a better way.

Balaji -"ADA has been a culprit understating the Tejas performance. Our predictions were conservative, aircraft performs much better. I will give you example. 4 weeks back, we were at Leh, two seater aircraft, 2 pilots (hot conditions, 28-29 DegC, high altitude). The aircraft took off easily with 2,000 lbs, 2200 liters fuel drop tanks, with 2 pilots and aircraft had still some margin."

Balaji - "Original script was that Raha will take control after the aircraft was airborne. However, Raha was so comfortable that at line-up point, that he wants to take-off since he has (also) controls from rear seat. He also performed 4.5-5G maneuvering".

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/walk-the-talk/walk-the-talk-with-team-tejas-434144?vod-related

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 15 Oct 2016 13:15

Was just looking at Tejas pics on their FB page and saw this pic that really gives a good idea of the kind of rear visibility for the Tejas pilot. Not the F-16 or F-15 style canopy but really very good view

Image
Last edited by Kartik on 15 Oct 2016 13:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 15 Oct 2016 13:17

Bala ji - "AMCA Feasibility studies have been completed. There are some gaps in areas and we have been asked to develop those. All the weapon stations on AMCA are concealed."

Girish - "We can tackle, complete and achieve all the gaps. We have come over long journey - Thanks to Tejas. The basic technologies for stealth technologies are available. We are also achieving success in Naval LCA which is also equally challenging, we have mastered the Naval LCA launch in May (not sure what he is referring to)."

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 15 Oct 2016 13:58

What does this weapon integration facility do or would be doing? Any idea? Why a big piece of 350 acre land (i.e. a square of 1.4 km X 1.4 Km land) been acquired by them? 560 Crores order worth of what -any guesses?


VIJAYAWADA: A weapons integration facility to manufacture Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), said to be the first-of-its-kind in the country in the private sector, will be set up in West Godavari district of Andhra Pradesh at a total cost of Rs 2,135 crore.

Wem Technologies Private Limited is partnering with Lockheed Martin, the largest defence equipment manufacturer in the US, to set up this facility, Chief Minister N Chandrababu Naidu said.

"We have decided to allot 350 acres of land for this facility spread over Vatluru and Bhogapuram villages near Eluru in West Godavari district. In the first phase, they will invest Rs 635 crore and provide employment to 650 persons. In all, 2510 jobs will be created when the facility becomes fully operational," Chandrababu told a press conference here last night. Wem currently has orders worth Rs 560 crore on hand, he said.



Marten wrote:

It is VEM, not WEM as reported. The site is offline atm: http://www.vemtechnologies.com/

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sankum » 15 Oct 2016 14:52

Sorry Deejay, my bad. It was for small minority of lobbyists. My apologies.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 15:00

sankum wrote:Sorry Deejay, my bad. It was for small minority of lobbyists. My apologies.


I know Sankum jee and I also most retired folks are not friendly to the lobbyists. There was an environment which enabled such people to grow and their voices to become stronger. Hopefully, we won't see that again.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 15 Oct 2016 15:19

Deejay - Many thanks for pointing out about the fact that those ejection seats need to be handled cautiously. They did mention about Matrin Baker 0-0 ejection seats (which I forgot to mention). I think this is one area, where India is not aiming to be indigenous, right? I think decision has been made the ejection seats will always be imported since we don't feel that we should be building every small component related to aircraft production.

PS - Since the day you have answered "How does the fighter squadron works" me in newbie thread, I have been following you like (Mirage Chase fighter). Since sending message on BRF isn't easy/allowed, please remember this abdul appreciates your posts.

deejay wrote:
Bhaskar_T wrote:Shekhar - "Can we go up and look from top". After climbing up, CMD to Shekhar - "Why don't you sit in"

CMD instructs like a teacher - "First, put your hands here, put both the hands here"

...


This is required for first timers/untrained people. Those are ejection seats there. Mistakes are not good. That CMD could go there and handle that shows how hands-on he is with that project.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 15 Oct 2016 15:52

Tejas - LCA fb webpage says, SP4 is schedule to be delivered in Dec 2016. Do not know how authentic is the word from the page. It would be an awesome start for HAL to deliver 3 SP's this year in 2016.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 16:25

In the HAL "Walk the Talk" Video, it was mentioned that the FCS of LCA can take control if the aircraft departs from allowed envelopm limits and regain the control (may be level it off?) and pass the control to the pilot.

This seems different that "FCS doesn't allow pilot to go out of flight envelop". Does the above sound like the Automated recovery system we saw on F16 in one of the recent videos posted in International Aerospace thread?? If yes, it would be incredible. :mrgreen:

I have to say I do not like the IFR probe prima facie. Looks too far extended out to my eyes. May be its the color contrast, dunno. I hope in finished version it will blend in better.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 17:08

Bhaskar_T wrote:What does this weapon integration facility do or would be doing? Any idea? Why a big piece of 350 acre land (i.e. a square of 1.4 km X 1.4 Km land) been acquired by them? 560 Crores order worth of what -any guesses?


It looks like its the mid-fuselage assembly facility as what TSR mentioned in the video above. This "Weapon Integration" looks like a DDM thing. Atleast it didnt make sense to me previously. After watching this Walk the Talk show, it makes sense that it would be a mid-fuselage assembly.

As such Weapon integration is ADA's job. Not a Tier1 supplier.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kakarat » 15 Oct 2016 17:16

Bhaskar_T wrote:Tejas - LCA fb webpage says, SP4 is schedule to be delivered in Dec 2016. Do not know how authentic is the word from the page. It would be an awesome start for HAL to deliver 3 SP's this year in 2016.


The Tejas - LCA fb page is run by ADA if I am right

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 17:24

Kakarat wrote:
Bhaskar_T wrote:Tejas - LCA fb webpage says, SP4 is schedule to be delivered in Dec 2016. Do not know how authentic is the word from the page. It would be an awesome start for HAL to deliver 3 SP's this year in 2016.


The Tejas - LCA fb page is run by ADA if I am right


I think its run by the PR agency they have hired for multimedia and all. Of coarse they could always access people at ADA/HAL and give authentic info.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby deejay » 15 Oct 2016 17:46

Bhaskar_T wrote:Tejas - LCA fb webpage says, SP4 is schedule to be delivered in Dec 2016. Do not know how authentic is the word from the page. It would be an awesome start for HAL to deliver 3 SP's this year in 2016.


I think the target was 04 for the first year. Financial Year should end by Mar 2017. It will be great if we have 04 by then. SP2 was in the last financial year IIRC.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 15 Oct 2016 18:58

I am sure this has been addressed before, but if someone can enlighten us on Tejas low flying capabilities, specifically say flying at about 30-50 ft off the ground in sustained flight say over water or over the desert? Another related question, is LRDE or someone working on TFR? What is the plan for it?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby abhik » 15 Oct 2016 20:01

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:IMHO, its a mixed bag. I am one of those who wants 250 LCAs today. But BJP political capital is not infinite. Forces cannot be dictated to. IAF cannot be forced to buy LCA instead of MMRCA. And yet, Jaitley will cry bloody murder if additional LCAs are ordered and sq limit raised beyond 42. OROP agitation is not yet fully done - money is required there as well.. let alone things like BMD, this, that..

Saar I am naive on this issue, so I have to ask. Do the forces not report to the Govt in power? Who is the boss here? I realise that there is an acute shortage of fighter aircraft. But like ranjan.rao said we are not going to war tomorrow. Can the air force not be told that Tejas it is, warts and all.

The air force will induct as many LCAs as the government will buy. The idea that the government will have to spend political capital to push through LCA is complete BS. Will the IAF personnel who are today operating Mig-21/27s go on dharna because they are getting SDRE LCAs instead of TFTA f-16/Gripens? The only people who will make noise will be the usual suspects.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Dileep » 15 Oct 2016 20:04

It was LSP-08 that is getting the IFR probe. It is the plane I went up close to see the wiring loom routing. The probe was not there when I saw it.

And yes, there is automatic recovery if you manage to spin/stall the plane. I did that during my simulator flight. Forgot to retract landing gear and tried to pull up too much. Stall warning came up on HUD, and message of Automatic Recovery came on HUD. The stick and rudder went unresponsive, and the plane went to level flight. Then stick control came back.

Another thing I noticed is that the rudder doesn't seem to do much when you make a turn by stick. But it makes yaw movement in level flight. The plane makes perfect turns by stick alone.

What I don't know is whether the simulator was in a 'newbie mode' or not. My previous experience is only flying fsgear on a PC using keyboard.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2016 20:06

Image

Image

Image

HAL begins integration of mid-air-refueling probe on Tejas ......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... s-1.924537

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 20:09

deejay wrote:
Karan M wrote:...

OROP agitation is not yet fully done - money is required there as well.. let alone things like BMD, this, that..



Karan, no disagreements, but a correction. OROP did not have IAF invested in it and there is no question of MOD requiring any political capital with IAF.

OROP was a veterans issue, contested and argued by those who have retired. Serving members were at best info addressees only.


Well my point was that BJP really cannot "shove" things down the services decision making chain just like that, when many things are happening in parallel. OROP agitation + media people hue & cry + reports of riding rough shod over services decision making = bad perception through rank and file in wider chain esp. those who are not aware of nitty gritties of issue.

You'd remember the coordinated media attack on obsolete LCA at time of announcement of its selection. IMHO, it started even confusing rtd folks who started wondering why this was being done, without consulting IAF etc. It was a deliberate attempt to sabotage Parrikar/GOIs significant achievement in pushing the LCA through for 120 aircraft, something which UPA crooks couldn't or wouldn't do.

At end of day, civilian govt is paramount, agreed, but personally, a soft touch is preferable & cooperation vs mere top down decision making (though sometimes, like with LCA that may be necessary). There is a propaganda war out there, and IMHO BJP led GOI is fighting on multiple fronts.

I just posted how some $50Bn of orders have been placed. How little of that has been reported by media, if any? Instead, constant complaints of how nothing has been done or orders placed. IMHO, this is deliberate because the ones who benefit from "quick fixes" are really the arms dalals not the forces, who'd rather get something that works than a quick solution which doesn't (which is why we have the huge summer-winter-etc trials process). Yet, the forces rank and file are sought to be convinced nothing has changed (via media PR) and a case is made for quick imports. And at the same time, talk of how its the indigenous programs which are "holding up national security".

You'd recall the stratpost "discussion" where several folks were lambasting LCA etc for holding up plans while of course, the Rafale was the ideal solution. Not one person actually went into the cost differential/strategic aspects or what had been achieved in entirety. The media is complicit, so are certain vested interests and the whole issue has over the years become a minefield, where honest intentioned, blunt spoken people like Parrikar et al will be trapped & their words twisted to maintain an anti-forces image.


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