Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Jan 2017 20:47

nits wrote:From Rediff

Minor fire on Navy warship INS Pralaya, no injuries: A minor fire was reported on board Navy warship INS Pralaya at Naval Dockyard in Mumbai on Tuesday afternoon.

The fire was reported in the gyro compartment and was extinguished immediately, a defence spokesperson said. There were no reports of any injury, the spokesperson added.

^^^ she is the last of the Veer Class corvettes --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veer-class_corvette

Her sister - INS Prahar - sunk off the coast (as a result of a collision with a merchant vessel) of Goa in 2006.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 10 Jan 2017 23:17

Singha wrote:Cvn ships apart from soft and hardkill measures have classified anti torpedo armour packages in the bottom levels underwater. They have lot more weight and volume budget in play.

My boo boo theory is the large 12000 teu container ships and tankers full loaded will be able to survive a hwt hit. They have good watertight compartments, strong trucklike chassis and spine and in tankers case huge reserve buoyancy from the fuel. Atleast i support the tanker riding it out....may sit low in the water and look weak but ww2 proved tankers are very hard to put down...sometimes the fuel would catch fire and burn out and the ship still be recovered. Gas tankers carrying cng i would abandon ship asap. Almost all tankers are double hull and large internal volumes absorb explosions well.

Given a volume budget of 2x todays mbt, people claim they can easily use basic spaced armour concepts to defeat any apds from any angle.


A tanker may, as it has more water tight compartments, has a double hull, and because its full of crude which as you know is lighter than water. But a container ship has no watertight compartments to speak of.. The containers are simply stacked one over the other in one (or two) giant compartments. Even a small hole that overwhelms the pumps and you can say bye bye to the container ship.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby gashish » 11 Jan 2017 01:24

P8-I tracked "Shang" from Malacca straits to Karachi

Now for the first time, details are emerging on how the Indian Navy has been able to track the movement of Chinese submarines, which first started operating in the Indian Ocean in 2013, a clear signal of how Beijing intends to expand its strategic reach to include areas of the Indian Ocean which New Delhi has typically considered its own backyard.

The P8-I is a US-made maritime surveillance aircraft
The Chinese 'Shang' class submarine, which docked in Karachi, entered the Indian Ocean through the Malacca straits off Singapore between April 19 and 20. Picked up almost immediately by the Indian Navy's US-made Boeing P8-I maritime surveillance aircraft, the submarine - accompanied by a large 10,000 ton fleet support and replenishment tanker - was constantly tracked on its way to Karachi.

The P8-Is dropped sonobuoys across the projected route of the submarine. Sonobuoys - small listening devices that transmit the sound of submarines to reconnaissance aircraft operating overhead - are key to detecting submarines.

Interspersed with the 'passive' sonobuoys deployed by the P8-Is, were 'active' sonobuoys which ping the ocean with sound waves reflecting off the submarine surface.

Using a combination of both sensors, the Navy's P8-Is were able to force the Chinese submarine into making evasive maneuvers.


The exact location of the submarine was also passed on to India's own submarines, which were also monitoring the movement of the 'Shang'.

The 'Shang' entered the Karachi harbour on May 19, its exact location constantly plotted by the Indian Navy's assets, which have determined that the sound radiated by the Shang class is higher than the considerably quieter new generation American or Russian submarines, which are tougher to detect.

The 'Shang' and its support ship spent seven days in Karachi, leaving on May 26. It was during this period that Pakistani Navy sailors and officers were allowed access to one of the Chinese Navy's most sensitive assets.

It's still unclear if the 'Shang' returned to Karachi to disembark the Pakistani Naval personnel or whether they were transferred to another vessel as the submarine proceeded south along the Indian peninsula before setting course for the Malacca straits.

On June 14, the 'Shang' submarine exited the Indian Ocean region.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2017 01:27

great find ashish! Good job by the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 11 Jan 2017 04:23

Considering Karachi is crawling with western spies great job China advertising the sub to the world. Better do a complete walk through and check to see no devices got tagged to the submarine.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 11 Jan 2017 05:08

And now the IN is interested in getting sonobuoys for the Il-38SD fleet as well.

More teeth for IN's Il-38 fleet

January 11, 2016: With plans to beef up anti-submarine warfare doctrines in the coming year, the Indian Navy, as part of a comprehensive modernisation plan, has decided to draw in all platforms for an rapid ramp-up in capabilities.

In line with this, the Indian Navy has revived its interest in procuring 1,000 Passive Directional Sonobuoy systems to hunt submarines for its Il-38SD maritime surveillance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft fleet.
The sonobuoys are primarily intended as an aid for search, surveillance and localisation of submarines using the sonobuoy receiver system already integrated on the Il-38SD aircraft.

The navy has stipulated that the sonobuoys should be passive directional and should be capable of being operated with the sonobuoy receiver system of Il-38SD stationed at INS Hansa, Goa. The sonobuoy should have a minimum detection range of 6 km and it should be able to operate for minimum 2 hours post deployment. The sonobuoy should have the facility to select depths at which the hydrophones can be deployed with the maximum depth that the hydrophone of the sonobuoy should be able to operate being not less than 300 metres.

The Navy's Il-38s are expected to participate in a series of maritime exercises scheduled for 2016-17 with South East Asian and Western nations.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 11 Jan 2017 10:35

Very interesting specs for sonobuoys. Especially depths 300 m i.e. 1000 feet

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nick_S » 12 Jan 2017 08:38

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Jan 2017 08:41

SpokespersonNavy ‏@indiannavy · 54m54 minutes ago

@SpokespersonMoD @makeinindia Khanderi....Second of the Project 75 Scorpene Submarines all set for launch

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 12 Jan 2017 08:49

Nick_S wrote:Image


Look at the P-15B INS Vishakapatnam next to it...very solid progress. Hull construction appears finished and outfitting to start.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Jan 2017 09:23

Sandeep ‏@SandeepUnnithan · 12m12 minutes ago

Khanderi in the tricolor. In '71 war sub of same name was tasked to shadow US 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jan 2017 09:45

Some how the boat looks more complete when compared to the pictures of kalwari. Any way good job. Let's commission all the boats quickly.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 12 Jan 2017 09:51

Nice Looking Submarine , Godspeed !

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 12 Jan 2017 10:16

abhishek_sharma wrote:Sandeep ‏@SandeepUnnithan · 12m12 minutes ago

Khanderi in the tricolor. In '71 war sub of same name was tasked to shadow US 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal.


Indeed Khanderi was shadowing US CBG during 71 war , A foxtrot class submarine ... I am not sure of USN because aware of its presence.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bheeshma » 12 Jan 2017 10:23

Yup nice sub and ship. Pity the sub is only armed with exocet for missiles.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 12 Jan 2017 10:39

Is the propeller of the Sub in some kind of a duct? Or its just covered by a tarp?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby wig » 12 Jan 2017 10:45

INS Khanderi Launched
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 49432.html
excerpts
2nd Scorpene-class submarine Khanderi launched
The state-of-the-art features of the submarine include superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack on the enemy using precision guided weapon.
The attack can be launched with torpedoes, as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles, whilst underwater or on surface. The stealth features will give it the invulnerability unmatched by many submarines.
The submarine is designed to operate in all theatres, including the tropics. All means and communications are provided to ensure interoperability with other components of a Naval task force.
It can undertake multifarious types of missions typically undertaken by any modern submarine, that is, anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare, intelligence gathering, mine-laying, area surveillance, etc.

and
The submarine is built according to the principle of modular construction, which involves dividing the submarine into a number of sections and outfitting them concurrently.
The equipment is mounted in a special manner and then embarked into the sections. The complexity of the task increases exponentially as it involves laying kilometres of cabling and piping in extremely congested compartments.
All equipment has been installed in the submarine, with 95 per cent cabling and piping also being completed.
Pressure-testing, setting-to-work and commissioning of various systems of the submarine is currently in progress, and would continue after the launching of the submarine.
The important safety milestone of vacuum-testing was completed in the first attempt itself, and within a single day on January 5.
This matched the record of ‘Kalvari’, which also completed the vacuum test in one go.
Till December, the submarine will undergo rigorous trials and tests, both in harbour and at sea, while on surface and whilst dived.
These trials are designed to test each system to its fullest capacity

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2017 10:50

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146759192 ... res/w2iB5b

Khanderi mean Swordfish in Marathi and the crest shows a swordfish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordfish

Khanderi Island off Alibaug was the Headquarters of Kanhoji Angre, and the fort was never taken by war. It has a temple decorated by Swordfish tusks given by local fishermen.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sooraj » 12 Jan 2017 11:03

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2017 12:14

subs would likely prefer to use torpedos than ASMs against ships. a ASM would be easily picked up by a ships radar further out than passive sonar detects the inbound torpedo. and ships have better active measures against ASM than a torpedo. a ASM hit from a exocet can be absorbed by bigger ships but not a hwt

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2017 12:22

The national flags at the bows and flanks shield the shape of the sonars from prying eyes. Std. practice in western navies.Similarly the screw may be covered in a shroud.

Reg. torpedoes,here's a dated but relevant description of modern torpedo warfare.Some options discussed.The French are known to be developing/developed a v.long range torpedo that can stay in the water for sev. hours repeatedly tracking the surface target/sub ,making repeated attacks until the target is hit.The Russians have their well known super-speed Shkval torpedo with newer variants in the offing. Other new torpedoes have been developed since the article was written,esp. the new usage of UUVs.

http://www.asiapacificdefencereporter.c ... do-options
FUTURE SUBMARINE TORPEDO OPTIONS.

In ASPI’s well-respected 2011-2012 Defence Budget Brief a suggestion was made that Defence would mandate equipping Australia’s future submarines with US AN/BYG-1 combat systems and US Mk 48 Mod 7 CBASS torpedoes. In fact, the use of the Mk 48 was “a given”. The source of this claim was not provided. Neither was an explanation as to “why”.

31st Aug 2011
Future submarine torpedo options.

Introduction
In ASPI’s well-respected 2011-2012 Defence Budget Brief a suggestion was made that Defence would mandate equipping Australia’s future submarines with US AN/BYG-1 combat systems and US Mk 48 Mod 7 CBASS torpedoes. In fact, the use of the Mk 48 was “a given”. The source of this claim was not provided. Neither was an explanation as to “why”.

Torpedo Role and Requirements
Torpedoes are the traditional tool used by submariners to engage both surface targets and submarines. They are the most potent ship killers; missiles may cripple, but torpedoes sink ships. Additionally, torpedoes are the only choice for encounters with other submarines.
But how are they employed and what are the key requirements for submarine-launched torpedoes?

The torpedo’s employment story starts well before it is launched. Using the combat system the submarine’s crew first compiles the tactical picture and decides which of the contacts, if any, need to be targeted. Once raised to target status, the submarine’s command then determines a strategy for engagement, moves the submarine to the best possible firing position and obtains a relatively accurate solution to the question of the target’s range, course and speed. In some circumstances, this pre-launch process will necessarily happen in a very short period and so the torpedo must either be continuously available or have a very short warm-up period.
After the torpedo is warmed and has been loaded with targeting data, it is launched. The launch should ideally be silent, although getting a torpedo weighing one and a half tonnes from stationary to more than 25 knots in a very short time frame inevitably generates noise. Whether the torpedo is swim-out or starts after it has been discharged positively can impact on launch noise levels.

After launch the torpedo then needs to run-out to the target, possibly via waypoints. The run-out can vary in range from very short to over-the-horizon, although it must be understood that most nation’s rules of engagement would require visual identification of a surface target before engagement. Run-out should be done at the lowest speed tactically possible, which will vary depending on the launch geometry, in order to minimize the amount of noise that the weapon generates. In the case where a high speed target is opening, the maximum speed capabilities of the torpedo must be sufficient to catch up to it; a nominal speed ratio of 1.5:1 is desirable. The run-out would normally be as deep as possible to minimize cavitation but with due consideration as to the best overall counter detection depth.
The run-out to the target is carried out in a relatively “dumb” mode. Once close to the target the torpedo will come to a best search depth and speed and then switch on its sensor circuits. A search for the target will commence; passively against a noisy surface contact or actively against a quiet surface contact or a submarine. Target acquisition should occur almost immediately after the search has commenced if the search point has been determined correctly. The torpedo must then be able to track multiple targets, including other own submarine torpedoes operating in the vicinity for situations where a salvo has been used. It must be able to do all of this in deep or littoral water environments.

Assuming the torpedo acquires and holds the target, it will increase speed and commence homing. It must resist any countermeasures employed by the enemy; but it should be understood that the best anti-countermeasure technique is to avoid counter detection in the first place. Once the torpedo arrives at the target, the warhead, triggered by influence sensors or contact, will explode and sink the vessel. If the torpedo misses the target or has been fooled by countermeasures, it should attempt a re-attack on the target. Sufficient reserves of energy for conducting re-attacks is a consideration in the design of the torpedo.
A wake-homing search is also possible against a surface ship; wake-homing allows for firing at targets without the need for an accurate solution or in datum fleeing situations. These torpedoes are aimed astern of the target with instructions to turn either left or right after wake is encountered such that it can be followed to its source. Wake homing torpedoes are relatively immune to most soft kill countermeasures.
It should be noted that most modern torpedoes are wire guided. This allows the torpedo to receive command guidance and pass information back to the submarine throughout its run-out, search, homing and re-attack phases.

Best Weapon
In relation to the Mk 48 being considered “a given”, in reality it would be misleading to argue that it is the best or even the correct torpedo choice for all situations. (KYM TO TASHA, BPS) To illustrate this it is worthwhile looking at the continuously evolving Mk 48 against a couple of new entrant torpedoes; Atlas Elektronik’s DM2A4 and the WASS Black Shark.
The Mk 48 has some real strengths in the ultimate torpedo quest. Some of these strengths come from its cold war heritage, where it served as the principal weapon for use against high speed Soviet nuclear powered submarines. A fundamental decision was made in the early stages of the Mk 48 program to use a thermal engine for propulsion as opposed to an electric motor. This decision was made because the thermal engine had much greater power density than a battery/electric motor solution; a thermal engine was critical in meeting the speed and endurance requirements of the USN. This decision was further amplified when, as a result of a competition held between a turbine-based propulsion plant and a mono propellant Otto II fuel engine, the Otto II engine was selected on account of its efficiency; the trade-off being the noise made by its swash plate reciprocating design and associated exhaust. Noise was less of a consideration for the USN on account of the acoustics superiority it enjoyed at the time but as this superiority eroded, it became the Achilles heel of the weapon.

In 1988 the USN began developing a new closed cycle Mk 48 propulsion system but the program was terminated in 1991. A fallback engine noise quieting program, which proposed dampening of the engine and fitting an exhaust muffler, was then initiated. Although this program proceeded, a 1995 US Accounting Office report opposed it on the grounds that it was unlikely the noise could be reduced sufficiently. Noise presents two problems to the torpedo user. It can have significant effect on the counter detection ranges of the torpedo and can affect the performance of the torpedo’s own sonar, particularly in shallow water when own noise reflects back off the surface and sea bed.
Very few recently developed torpedoes use thermal engines; the Russian UGST being the exception. Both the DM2A4 and the Black Shark employ electric motors fed by batteries. The DM2A4 uses a modular and operator configurable set of silver zinc oxide (Zn-AgO) batteries and a 90% efficient permanent magnet motor that develops 300 kW. This motor can vary its rotation speed continuously and without any steps over the entire range from slow to extremely fast drive, and the variation is virtually noiseless. This feature is useful throughout the entire torpedo run including during the launch phase, where cavitation can be avoided by carefully controlling acceleration, a particularly important capability in shallow water. A similar configuration is found on the Black Shark although it uses a slightly different battery technology; aluminium silver oxide (Al-AgO). Whilst radiated noise details are classified, it is reasonable to assume the electric propulsion of these two European designed weapons is quieter than that of the Mk 48. Additionally, the power to weight advantage of the thermal weapon has all but disappeared. Electric torpedoes are now achieving speeds only a few knots slower than the Mk 48, but with improved noise characteristics, greater speed control and no exhaust gases to contribute to what should otherwise be a minimally visible wake trail.

Returning to Mk 48 positives, Cold War reasons also have blessed it with a competition-winning 800 metres maximum operating depth. The Mk 48 was modified in the early 80s to enable it to attack deep diving Alpha class submarines, with the engineering trade off being greater weight. The current Mk 48 weights around 1700 kg. By comparison, the Black Shark weighs around 1200 kg and the DM2A4 sits somewhere between the two. Underway, torpedoes must use speed to generate enough body lift to overcome their negative buoyancy. This has a couple of significant implications. Firstly, higher speeds come at the expense of range. Range is linearly related to fuel capacity, but increased speed demands a rise in power following a cube law. For example, an increase in speed from 45 to 55 knots calls for a doubling of power delivered to the torpedoes’ propellers or propulsors. A relatively light Black Shark is capable of speeds below 20 knots with associated gains in range. The second weight implication relates to noise. A relatively heavy Mk 48 must have a faster minimum speed, which makes an already noisier propulsion system noisier.
The next big differentiator between torpedoes is the onboard processing. The reality is that all torpedo designers are similarly constrained by the size of the weapon with respect to sonar performance and processing capabilities. The size of the sonar array on a torpedo is limited by the 533 mm diameter of the weapon and further by hydrodynamic constraints at the front of the torpedo. Given the need to have sonar beamwidths smaller than 10 degrees to achieve reasonable targeting accuracy and resolution along with reasonable detection ranges, the frequency range of heavyweight torpedo sonar is generally constrained to between 20 kHz and 30 kHz. Signal processing can make some differences. All modern torpedoes have steered beamformers, multi-frequency capabilities, various filtering techniques, returning pulse analysis and other signal processing techniques; both in the passive and active domains which they can all easily switch between. The Mk 48 designers have sought to go broadband with CBASS processing in order to improve signal-to-noise in a reverberation limited environment; something necessary to improve performance against modern submarines operating in the littorals.

The DM2A4 camp claims advanced processing centred on the torpedo’s conformal array as does the Black Shark camp with its Advanced Sonar Transmitting and Receiving Architecture (ASTRA) technology, although there is little information about either of these in the public domain. The truth is that it is hard to assess what the differences are in processing performance across these torpedos – although noting that signal-to-noise ratio is the main parameter affecting the performance in all applications of target detection and parameter estimation, one could easily surmise that the noisier Mk 48 is starting with a handicap.
It is known that both European weapons have wake homing capabilities which can be combined with acoustical homing and communication wire related command guidance to assist in better tactical decision making. (KYM TO TASHA, BPS) The Mk 48 does not have this capability at present.
One clear area of difference between the US and the European torpedoes is the communication link between the submarine and the weapon. The MK 48 has a copper wire guidance system while the DM2A4 and Black Shark have fibre optic systems. In addition to the increase in cable length possible given its smaller storage volume and lack of signal attention, the higher data rate of the fibre optic link allows full bandwidth sonar data to be transmitted back to the combat system in the submarine.
This brings a number of benefits. It provides the opportunity for more advanced sonar processing to take place on-board the submarine. The highly variable speed control of permanent magnet motors allows torpedo speed to be set in response to the sonar search and homing performance being observed or listened to by the submarine operator. Information from the torpedo, which may have a different aspect to the target, can be fused with data from the combat system. Shaft and blade rates and other identification data can be compared with the data from the submarine’s on-board sensors to ensure the torpedo’s acquired contact is in fact the intended target. Finally, when countermeasures are used, it allows for the submarine operator to assist in deciding what is the countermeasure and what is the target using additional combat system information. A recent Navy News article revealed that the RAN has been assisting the US in Mk 48 fibre trials so there is respite here for the Mk 48 advocates, but it is clear that at this stage other torpedo manufacturers are well ahead in this regard.

Best Choice
The performance of any torpedo will be a compromise between all possible design parameters like size and shape limitations, required thrust, efficiency, range of operations speeds, cavitation conditions and noise reduction.
But in the end, it’s not always just about the performance of the torpedo. Other factors will weigh into the selection. Australia is part of a torpedo armaments cooperation program with the US and that no doubt brings benefits, not the least being access to an evolving design (albeit at a price). Then there is the fact that the Mk 48 is the incumbent weapon. Investment has been made in relation to infrastructure such as the Torpedo System Centre at DSTO in Edinburgh and the Torpedo Maintenance Facility at Garden Island in Western Australia. RAN personnel are very familiar with the weapon and that counts for something.
And the reality is that submarine warfare is asymmetric. Only in very few circumstances will the full capabilities of a modern torpedo be put to the test. Perhaps reliability of the torpedoes is far more important, as has been discovered in wartime by both the Germans and the US. Perhaps the 8,600 Mk 48 in-water exercise firings really count for something.

Options and Competition
A quiet weapon for a quiet platform; is it now time to make the switch to an electric torpedo?
Perhaps Raytheon could tender the Mk 48 Mod 8 for Australia coupled with a program for an indigenously designed and developed Mk 48 “Lite”.
The Italian Type 212 submarines have a Combat System capable of firing the DM2A4, the WASS A184 Mod 3 and the Black Shark. Maybe a mix of weapon firing capabilities for the SEA 1000 design is something to be considered?
Perhaps an option put on the table by WASS to build and support both Australian and regional Black Shark would be attractive to Defence, Industry and politicians alike?
Maybe we should all wait until there is greater clarity in the torpedo capabilities being designed into the F21 by DCNS, possibly in co-operation with Atlas Elektronik, for the Barracuda program and already sold to Brazil?

Summary
Noting the torpedo capability issues and other logistic aspects presented in this article, it would be prudent for Australia to consider all options for Australia’s future submarines. We want the best for our submariners. Advocates for any torpedo should not fear a competition, Mk 48 included. A competitive analysis should be conducted.
Our submarines will be used for a number of different roles. Even if the decision is made that Australia’s future weapon will be the Mk 48, that decision need not, nor should it, dictate the designer or design of boat that we select. That would be like having the tail wag the dog.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2017 14:04

The Chinesse sh*tworms warn India against defensive SAM sales to Vietnam while they plan to see the Pakis an N-sub a[part from the 8 conventional AIP Yuan class! The GOI should now on aw ar footing also increase mil support to Vietnam and other friendly nations threatened by China.Malaysia which was once close to India is being aggressively wooed by China with the visit of a PLAN sub.

This thus explains the long visit of the PLAN's Shang class SSN to Karachi were Paki naval officers were given a detailed tour of the sub.The UW launch of a cruise missile was obviously another PLAN stunt,intended to eventually beef up the PN with further anti-India UW N-capability,currently missing in the Paki arsenal.

https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&u ... YZ0CoF4gkA


China likely to sell nuclear submarine to Pakistan as part of its strategic plan

MG Singh
Published on:10 January 2017

sChina likely to sell nuclear submarine to Pakistan as part of its strategic plan
Information is received that China is likely to help Pakistan acquire a nuclear submarine to match Indian naval power.
In Its Biggest Arms Deal, China to Sell Pakistan Eight Submarines

china has a two-fold strategic plan. It would like to box in the Indian navy, and, at the same time, match US naval power. In addition, China wants to patrol and control the Indian Ocean through which massive trade and shipments (including oil) pass onward to China.
China has very little oil and is solely dependent on oil imports (90% of which pass through the Indian Ocean). For this reason, China is scouting for bases and has two significant ones at Gwadar in Pakistan and Hambantota in Lanka. The Chinese are planning to give a nuclear submarine to Pakistan to give the Pakistan navy muscle to face the Indian Navy. Presently the Pakistan navy is not a match for the Indian navy which operates aircraft carrier and nuclear submarines. As part of the exercise to familiarize the Pakistan naval personnel with nuclear submarine operation, a Chinese nuclear submarine docked at the Pakistani port of Karachi. This was announced by the Indian defense ministry on Friday.

Nuclear sub for Pakistan
The Chinese nuclear-powered submarine if given to Pakistan will alter the balance of power in the Indian Ocean, which his heavily skewed in favor of the Indian and US navy. The Indian navy is sure that this docking of the nuclear submarine is part of a plan to give one to Pakistan, and some sailors and officers were taken on board the secret submarine in order to familiarize themselves with operations.

The Chinese have been flexing their muscles, but it is only now that the Chinese navy has blue water capability. Pakistan has also signed a deal for 8 conventional diesel-powered submarines, 4 of which will be built in Karachi. In the last major war with India in 1971 the Indian navy bottled up the Pakistan navy and the result was that East Pakistan was completely cut off. The war ended with the creation of Bangladesh. Pakistan would not want to see something similar happen again.

Last word
The submarine likely to be sold to Pakistan is the "shang class," with 6 torpedo tubes, it displaces 7000 tons. But the full operational capability of the Pakistan navy to operate a nuclear submarine is still years away at best.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jayasimha » 12 Jan 2017 14:26

Print ReleasePrintXClose
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
12-January-2017 11:47 IST
Kalvari Class Submarines a Key Milestone in Self-Reliance and Indigenisation for Country: Dr Subhash Bhamre

Submarine ‘Khanderi’ Launched

Khanderi, the second of Indian Navy’s Scorpene’ class stealth submarine, was ‘launched’ today by the Hon’ble Raksha Rajya Mantri, Dr Subhash Bhamre paving the way for her sea trials. Admiral Sunil Lanba, Chief of the Naval Staff and a host of other dignitaries witnessed the launch at Mazagon Dock Shipyard Limited today.
The submarine is expected to be delivered to Navy by the year end. She has been christened after her illustrious predecessor, an erstwhile ‘Foxtrot’ class submarine decommissioned in 1989, which is as per the traditions of Indian Navy. The construction of six Scorpene submarines is presently being progressed at Mazagon Dock Shipyard Limited (MDL), under Project 75 with Transfer of Technology from M/s DCNS, France as the Collaborator. The first of the class submarine, Kalvari is presently undergoing sea trials and likely to be commissioned into Navy by Mid 2017. These submarines, post induction, would form the core of Navy’s conventional Submarine Arm.
Speaking on the occasion Dr Subhash Bhamre said that Project 75 Kalvari is a key milestone in self reliance and indigenisation for the country. Admiral Sunil Lanba, Chief of the Naval Staff said during his address that the fact that Submarine ‘’Khanderi” compares with the best in the world, speaks highly of the experience and expertise our shipbuilders have gained over the years. He added that as Indian Navy celebrates Golden Jubilee of the submarine arm in 2017, the induction of Project 75 submarines would mark the beginning of a new chapter in our submarine capabilities.
The launching of Khanderi also marks a critical milestone event for the Shipyard which earlier has delivered two Shishumar class submarines in the 90’s and has now strengthened its position as a submarine building yard for Indian Navy. Started as a small dry dock facility for East India Company, MDL today has established itself as a forefront Defence Public Sector Undertaking, with indigenous construction of several ships and submarines for Navy such as P 15 B Destroyers and P 17 A class stealth Frigates being the latest.
*****
DKS/RS/SDR/NPV

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2017 18:53

The MOD fisco reg. torpedoes for the SCorpene subs has to be fast tracked.There was an earlier report which said that the DM was aware of the critical situ and that the acquisition has beeen approved in principle.Is there any further news on this score?

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/no- ... -submarine
No Torpedoes for India's Second Scorpene Submarine
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, January 12, 2017 (Photo Credit: Indian Navy)
NEW DELHI — India has launched the second French Scorpene-class submarine, but the Khanderi will not be equipped with torpedoes because the $200 million tender to buy them remains undecided by the Ministry of Defense (MoD) since it was created five years ago.

The MoD has put on hold the acquisition of 98 Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes, to be mounted on Scorpene submarines from WASS, a subsidiary of Italian firm Leonardo.

Plans to procure Black Shark torpedoes for the Indian Navy from WASS was canceled in May, an MoD spokesman confirmed with Defense News last year. The decision came in the wake of corruption charges involving another subsidiary of Leonardo, AgustaWestland and the Indian National Congress political party.

With the Khanderi's launch on Thursday, the sub is set to undergo rigorous trials until the end of the year. When the trials are over, the sub will be commissioned into the Indian Navy as INS Khanderi, an Indian Navy official explained.

Defense News
Indian MoD: Black Shark Torpedo Deal for Navy Cancelled
The MoD expects the sub to be delivered to the Navy by mid-2017.

"The force strength of submarines is very low at this point. The reason for this situation is the closure of Shisumar (German HDW) class project and delay in the Scorpene project. The existing submarines are less than 25 years old. With this background, launch of the second submarine at [state-owned Mazagon Dock Limited] MDL is of great importance," retired Indian Navy Captain Shyam Kumar Singh offered.

However, Anil Jai Singh, a retired Indian Navy commodore and defense analyst, believes there is still room for improvement in India's submarine industry. "Submarine construction in India will truly come of age when we are able to design and build our own submarines. The first two Scorpene submarines have been built in India to complete specifications provided by DCNS France. In this case, most of the submarine is imported with some indigenous content," he said.

The Khanderi is part of six Scorpene-class submarines being built by MDL under a $3.5 billion contract signed in 2004 between India and DCNS of France.

The Scorpene-building program is behind by more than three years and its cost has escalated by more than $1 billion. The first of the six Scorpene-class subs, Kalvari, is at sea but is yet to be officially inducted, the Indian Navy official noted.

The program's delay has been attributed by MoD officials to low-level absorption of complex technology during its early years, augmentation of MDL infrastructure and procurement of MDL-purchased material.

Defense News
Submarine Data Leak Roils Three Governments
An Australian newspaper on Aug. 24, 2016, reported that thousands of pages of presumably secret submarine documents were on the loose. The news threatened the operational security of India’s new Scorpene-class submarines, prompting India's MoD to decide against mounting French air-independent propulsion systems on the last of the two Scorpene subs, leaving the possibility of additional orders remote.

"Considering the time frame of first submarine to be commissioned by 2018 and optimistically one every year, the current program will go on till 2023. Placement of further orders with old specifications may not be prudent at this stage," Singh said.

The strength of the Indian Navy's submarines has dwindled from a total of 21 submarines in the 1980s to 13 conventional submarines plus one homemade Arihant-class nuclear submarine and one Russian Akula-class submarine operating on lease. China, in comparison, has a strength of 65 subs, which "is a matter concern," the Indian Navy official said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 12 Jan 2017 19:05

Delete.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2017 21:08

sudeepj wrote:Is the propeller of the Sub in some kind of a duct? Or its just covered by a tarp?

propellors are usually (actually almost) always covered in tarp. I could be wrong, but the number of blades gives some crucial info to the enemy. tsarkar or some other informed poster should be able to provide some more detailed info. but till then, refer to below....

http://gentleseas.blogspot.ca/2016/05/secret-german-high-tech-submarine.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2017 21:16

Nick_S wrote:Image


That Make in India banner looks so sick! Too bad they have to take it off.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 13 Jan 2017 00:22

Rakesh, you meant "slick" right?

Anyway, not sure if this was posted here or not

Life Extension for 4 Kilo class subs

October 19, 2015: After nearly two years in discussions, the Indian government has finally agreed to push through a long-standing Indian Navy demand for a life extension of at least four of its eight effectively remaining Kilo-class submarines.

A deal is to be signed shortly with the Rosoboronexport that involves the upgradation/life-extension of the INS Sindhukesari at Zvevdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk Russia, with the other three boats to be refitted and updated with new weaponry and combat systems at a shipyard in India. A separate contract will be signed at a later stage for the additional three submarines, once a shipyard has been identified.


The refit/upgrade move will be the second major programme on the Kilos contracted by the Indian Navy in the 1980s. While the submarines remain formidable platforms (Kilos are among the quietest conventional submarines in the world at slow speeds), depletion in strength has severely affected the Indian Navy's submarine arm, given its over dependence on a diminishing fleet of old generation boats. Following the tragic accident on board the INS Sindhurakshak in 2013, it became obvious to the Navy that it needs to fire on all cylinders to rescue the submarine force. The Kilo upgrade, coupled with a speeded up Kalvari-class (DCNS Scorpene license-build at MDL) delivery schedule should go some way in shoring up strength figures ahead of a larger induction of force units.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2017 00:25

Kartik wrote:Rakesh, you meant "slick" right?

I meant sick onlee. Means the same as slick :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Jan 2017 00:28

Philip wrote:The Chinesse sh*tworms warn India against defensive SAM sales to Vietnam while they plan to see the Pakis an N-sub a[part from the 8 conventional AIP Yuan class! The GOI should now on aw ar footing also increase mil support to Vietnam and other friendly nations threatened by China.Malaysia which was once close to India is being aggressively wooed by China with the visit of a PLAN sub.


+1 Also, make a trumpesque phone call to Taiwan. Possibly even engage with the Taiwanese wrt micro-electronics (AESA TRMs) in exchange for some MTCR compliant brahmos or Prithvi, Prahaar. Perhaps even LCA.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 13 Jan 2017 01:36

Notice the superstructure changes in Vishakapatnam confirms the CGI image that was released.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem » 13 Jan 2017 07:43

TV Channels now openly showing Arihant, declaring it was fully operational in Feb and officially commissioned in August.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyANed7s7CQ

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2017 08:08

Rakesh wrote:propellors are usually (actually almost) always covered in tarp. I could be wrong, but the number of blades gives some crucial info to the enemy.

Rakesh although covered - that prop has 6 blades - easy to see from the image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Sabyasachi » 13 Jan 2017 08:21

Have you guys missed INS Visakhapatnam in the back drop ^ ! :D

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Sid » 13 Jan 2017 08:24

At this point of time isn't all data related to our Subs already compromised? What's the point is hiding them anymore.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 13 Jan 2017 08:24

Sabyasachi wrote:Have you guys missed INS Visakhapatnam in the back drop ^ ! :D

I think you missed others incl myself commenting about it 8)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2017 08:27

vizag seems like a warship of fairly vast proportions. like a P15 juicing itself up on protein shakes and gym work daily for a year.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2017 10:58

Sid wrote:At this point of time isn't all data related to our Subs already compromised? What's the point is hiding them anymore.

That is a misconception. Lose it fast :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 13 Jan 2017 12:38

Image

Better view of INS Visakhapatnam and INS Mormugao

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 13 Jan 2017 12:45

INS Betwa updates

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 043576.cms

18 December

MUMBAI: The navy is in the process of constructing blocks in the dry dock to rest the frigate-class warship INS Betwa...

....After the mishap, officials of three foreign salvage companies arrived to hold meetings with the naval authorities....

A senior official in the navy said the three salvage companies, after assessing the situation and studying the position of the warship, advised the authorities to construct new dock blocks. "These blocks will help in resting the warship and there will be no further damage after the dry dock is de-flooded. The extent of the damage will be known only after the water is removed," an official said.

The navy wants to lift the ship after the blocks are built and the vessel is docked.

"About one-fourth of the ship is in water. After placing the ship on the new blocks, deflooding of the dock and ship will be done. The assessment done is in the first phase of salvage operation. After the ship is placed on the new blocks, machinery will be used to make her upright by flooding it after the damaged portion is sealed.At present the water is present in the dock and cannot be deflooded because it could further damage the hull. Also, the dock cannot be flooded because the water ingress through the damaged part will further create problems," the official said.

While the Board of Inquiry (BoI) is expected to establish the exact reason for the mis hap, officers said the incident could have happened because of the failure of the "dock block mechanism" or miscalculation of the "load distribution equilibrium" required in the complex and delicate undocking procedure. The role of the dockmaster and other officers from the "naval constructors" wing as well as the frigate captain and crew will be examined by the BoI.

"The navy has taken a very serious view of the incident, and those found guilty will be held accountable. Such a mishap, which left the frigate heavily damaged with at least 25% flooding in its compartments, has never been witnessed in India before," an officer said


The bold part answers those who were doubting accountability.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... p-4462847/

7 January

Inflated floats have been brought in to ‘right’ the capsized Indian Navy Ship (INS) Betwa...

Sources said nearly 25 per cent of the frigate was flooded after the accident, but the water has now been pumped out to avoid any reaction from the flood water mixing with chemicals on the ship and emitting poisonous fumes...

The capsized vessel now rests on inflated floats and the water that had flooded it has been drained out completely....

“The main mast of the ship, which contains a few sensors, has been broken in the accident. Some antennae have also been damaged,” he added


http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-ne ... tPdZM.html

13 January

NS Betwa, which tipped over during a refit at the Naval Dockyard in Mumbai last year, will be operational again by September 2018.....

.....According to officials, a contract would be signed this week with a foreign firm to salvage the ship. The cost of its repairs, that is, to put the ship upright had been negotiated and has been pegged at Rs20 crore,...

...Phase 1 of the entire process was completed on January 11, and the ship is resting on the ground again with water being removed from the dock....

Fortunately, the ship did not have any armaments or critical electronic suites on board as it was undergoing the refit


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