Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Jan 2017 23:20

Rakesh: Thanks for the pointer. Attaching the full report.

(iii) MiG-29K/KUB Aircraft

The MiG-29K, which is a carrier borne multi role aircraft and the mainstay of integral fleet air defence, is riddled with problems relating to airframe, RD MK-33 engine and fly-by-wire 4 system.

Aircraft were being technically accepted despite having discrepancies/anomalies. Serviceability of MiG-29K was low, ranging from 15.93 per cent to 37.63 per cent and that of MiG-29KUB ranging from 21.30 per cent to 47.14 per cent. The augmentation of infrastructure at Visakhapatnam is still at the Detailed Project Report stage even six years after approval (December 2009). The Full Mission Simulator was assessed to be unsuitable for Carrier Qualification (CQ) simulator training for pilots, as the visuals did not support the profile.

The service life of the aircraft is 6000 hours or 25 years (whichever is earlier) and with issues facing the MiG-29K/KUB, the operational life of the aircraft already delivered would be reduced. Further, the deliveries of the aircraft under the Option Clause scheduled between 2012 and 2016 are much ahead of the delivery schedule of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier in 2023, as projected by Cochin Shipyard Limited.


2.5 MiG-29K/KUB Aircraft

2.5.1 Procurement of aircraft

MiG-29K is the mainstay of the Indian Navy’s fleet air defence, being the choice of aircraft for both the aircraft carriers, viz. INS Vikramaditya and Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (christened as INS Vikrant) as well as two naval air stations on the East and West coast.
The MiG-29K of the Indian Navy is a new generation aircraft and has a newly designed airframe with latest technology, incorporating high strength composites in its construction making the structure significantly more resilient than its predecessors i.e., MiG-29, as indicated in the Cabinet Committee on Security approval of December 2009.

The aircraft has fly-by-wire technology and its RD 33 MK engines are a definitive advancement over the MiG-29.

The Ministry concluded (January 2004) a contract with the Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) MiG for acquisition of 16 MiG-29K/KUB aircraft51 and associated equipment at a cost of USD 740.35 million (Rs 3,568.49 crore), which included 13 aircraft for Admiral Gorshkov (i.e., INS Vikramaditya).

Thereafter, the Ministry had concluded (March 2010) an Option Clause contract for acquisition of 29 MiG 29K/KUB aircraft (which included 12 MiG-29K and one MiG 29KUB for the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) at a cost of USD 1466.44 million (Rs 6,840.94 crore), estimating that the IAC would be delivered by 2014. The deliveries of the Option clause aircraft scheduled between 2012 and 2016 are much ahead of the delivery schedule of the IAC in 2023, as projected by Cochin Shipyard Limited.

Audit scrutiny of documents relevant to the MiG 29K/KUB aircraft revealed the following issues:

2.5.2 Quality of the MiG-29K/KUB

As per the Cabinet Committee on Security approval of December 2009 for acquisition of 29 MiG-29K/KUB aircraft under Option clause of the Main Contract (January 2004), the carrier compatibility of MiG-29K aircraft would be tested/evaluated 52 on the Russian carrier Kuznetsov in Russia followed by certification trials from ex-Gorshkov once she is ready.

As per Clause 1.3 of the Main contract (January 2004) and Option clause contract (March 2010), aircraft shall mean MiG-29K and KUB aircraft which are capable to be used from Project 11430 (INS Vikramaditya).

All 16 aircraft of the Main contract were delivered between December 2009 and October 2012. The first deck landing of the MiG-29K/KUB on the decks of Admiral Gorshkov was undertaken at Russia in July 2012.

Since the capability of the Main contract aircraft could not be tested/proved from the decks of INS Vikramaditya prior to exercising the Option clause, the quality of the airframe, engines as well as fly-by-wire of the MiG 29K/KUB remained un-assessable prior to exercising the Option clause.

2.5.2.1 RD-33 MK Engine

The service life of RD-33MK engine fitted on MiG-29K/KUB is 10 years/4000 hours with an overhaul life of 1000 hours.

The Navy had placed on RAC MiG a total order for 113 engines along with 45 aircraft (90 installed on aircraft53 and 23 spare engines) under Main and option clause contract. The Indian Navy accepted 21 aircraft up to September 2014.

Audit observed (December 2014) that as of September 2014, a total of 65 engines (42 with 21 aircraft and 23 spares) had been accepted. However, since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (representing 62 per cent of 65 engines) had been withdrawn from service/rejected due to design-related defects/deficiencies. The issue had serious flight safety implications, since in-flight engine defects had led to ten cases of single engine landings.

Audit further observed from the protocol (September 2014) of the 16th IRIGC-MTC54 that RAC MiG had forwarded a list of 17 modifications which they had scheduled to complete on all engines held in India by November 2014. However, as of September 2015, it was seen that four modifications (out of 17) had been implemented by RAC MiG on all engines and balance 13 modifications would be implemented as and when engines were sent to OEM at Russia for overhaul/repair.

In response to audit query about status of repairs on engines withdrawn, the Indian Navy replied (November 2015) that repairs of defective engines were being taken up with RAC MiG based on warranty/non-warranty basis, adding that repair of non-warranty engines were being progressed under IHQ MoD (N) indents.

The fact remains that up to August 2015, the number of engines withdrawn from service/rejected was 46, indicating that even as the RD-33 MK engine was considered an advancement over the engine of the MiG-29, its reliability remains questionable.

2.5.2.2 Failure of airframe parts during deck operations

Major defects arose during first (July 2012) and subsequent deck trials of the MiG 29K/KUB on Admiral Gorshkov as reported (July 2013) by Headquarters Western Naval Command, Mumbai to Directorate of Naval Air Staff.

The Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) certified (May 2014) that aircraft performance of MiG-29K/KUB aircraft under tested conditions of INS Vikramaditya operations mainly conformed to the assigned specifications, however added that weaknesses were revealed during flight tests, which were to be eliminated.

Directorate of Air Support Equipment informed (June 2014) RAC MiG that numerous defects55 pertaining to failure of airframe parts had occurred during deck operations despite modifications.

Responding to audit query (August 2014), Navy stated (September 2014) that the defects on the aircraft were being monitored and RAC MiG was being apprised of the criticality to initiate suitable remedial measures.

Audit, however observed from the protocol of the 18th Indo Russian Inter Governmental Commission – Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) (August 2015) that defects had occurred despite numerous design improvements and modifications and regular occurrence of these defects on sortie to sortie basis was having an adverse impact on Indian Navy pilots training and capability of aircraft for undertaking prolonged deployments.

2.5.2.3 Fly-by-wire system

Audit observed (December 2014) from the Agenda points of 6th Reliability and Maintainability Programme Plan (RMPP) for MIG-29K/KUB aircraft that the reliability56 of the fly by wire was very poor, ranging from 3.5 per cent to 7.5 per cent between 01 July 2012 and 30 June 2014 and measures were to be taken by RAC MiG to improve reliability of the system.

2.5.3 Delay in build-up of aircraft

As per Clause 16 of the Option Clause contract (March 2010), post delivery of aircraft, the Russian Warranty Team (RWT) has to assemble/build up57 the aircraft and offer to the Navy for technical acceptance.

Audit scrutiny revealed:

The service life of the aircraft is 6000 hrs or 25 calendar years whichever is earlier, as seen from the Option clause contract (March 2010).

Out of 19 aircraft delivered up to November 2015, 12 had been built up, with time taken for build-up ranging from two months to fifteen months.

The contract did not stipulate any timeframe for completion of build-up/assembly. Therefore, the delays in build-up would reduce the service life, thereby impacting the operational life of the aircraft.

2.5.4 Technical Acceptance of the aircraft

As per the Option Clause contract (March 2010), in case the customer’s representatives have any observations during the aircraft technical acceptance, these shall be eliminated by the supplier’s representative before the Technical Acceptance Report (TAR) is signed. As of November 2015, ten aircraft had been technically accepted.

Audit observed discrepancies/anomalies on the first MiG-29K/KUB of the Main Contract technically accepted in February 2010, continued to persist on six aircraft acquired under the Option clause as discussed below:

The Acceptance Protocols (December 2013 – March 2015) of aircraft showed discrepancies/anomalies with respect to Log cards, passport and defects during pre-flight acceptance of aircraft.

The Russian side agreed (December 2013 – March 2015) that technical acceptance had not been undertaken in the full scope of the aircraft capabilities and the technical acceptance checks as per Clause 16.6 of the contract

The Russians were paid the final 20 per cent towards the cost of aircraft even as the Navy signed the TAR prior to liquidation of limitations Directorate of Aviation Projects Management (DAPM) at IHQ MoD (N) admitted (December 2014) that various defects/discrepancies/ observations were found during the technical acceptance of the individual aircraft, however stated that they were forwarded to Russian Warranty Team for liquidation.

2.5.5 Low serviceability of aircraft

‘Serviceability’ implies that the aircraft is technically available and is not undergoing a scheduled repair or overhaul at any level.

Audit observed from the Serviceability Status Reports (SSR) of MiG-29 K/KUB aircraft at Goa, that the serviceability of aircraft was low, as tabulated below:

The serviceability of the MiG-29 in Indian service.

From the above, it is clear that the serviceability of MiG-29K was unsatisfactory, ranging from 15.93 per cent to 37.63 per cent. However, the serviceability of the MiG 29KUB, i.e., trainer aircraft was comparatively better, ranging from 21.30 per cent to 47.14 per cent.

2.5.6 Infrastructure for the MiG-29K/KUB

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved (December 2009) creation of infrastructure at Visakhapatnam for operating MiG 29K/KUB aircraft procured as complement of IAC, to be based on the East Coast at an indicative cost of `218.30 crore. As per the Option Clause contract (March 2010) 29 aircraft were to be delivered between March 2012 and November 2016.

Ten aircraft, totally approximately costing Rs 1,680 crore had been technically accepted by the Indian Navy between December 2013 and November 2015.

Audit, however, noticed that the Go-ahead sanction for preparation of Detailed Project Report (DPR) for infrastructure was accorded in August 2014 only and the expected date of submission of DPR is February 2016, six years after in-principle approval (November 2009).

2.5.7 Sub-optimal utilisation of Full Mission Simulator

The Full Mission Simulator (FMS) costing `183.16 crore, is a major training aid of the MiG-29K and is designed for the ground training of a pilot. The MiG-29K Simulator facility had been commissioned at INS Hansa, Goa in May 2013. The MiG-29K training squadron has been earmarked at Goa, the squadron however had not been fully operationalised as of September 2015.

Audit scrutiny (August 2014) of records showed that:

The simulator remained unserviceable (July 2014) due to defects in three out of nine visual channels and was being used for training for basic flying profile akin to a procedure trainer. Report No. 17 of 2016 (Navy and Coast Guard)

As per the protocol of the 16th Indo-Russian Inter Governmental Commission – Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGSC-MTC) (September 2014), un-serviceability of the simulator had prevented its optimum utilization for training of IN pilots.

In reply to an audit query, Directorate of Aviation Projects Management (DAPM) admitted (December 2014) that the simulator was assessed to be unsuitable for Carrier Qualification (CQ) simulator training for pilots, as the visuals did not support the profile which required high accuracy and fidelity. As of 31st July 2015, the OEM was still in the process of software corrections as required to make the simulator as realistic as aircraft.

CAG Report

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby suryag » 25 Jan 2017 23:21

CAG doesnt know what they are talking about and IN are incompetent and dont know how to operate the 29Ks,

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jan 2017 23:47

Navy issues RFI for 57 carrier fighters
http://www.stratpost.com/navy-issues-rf ... r-fighters

From Rajit Ohja: Conventional logic, you buy/design carrier around a/c you want to operate.
Desi logic, you buy a/c around aircraft carrier you buy/develop
https://twitter.com/y2krajit/status/824254966252453889

In response to the above tweet, Angad Singh states....

My favourite part of all this is we did a navair seminar in Delhi two years ago where IN flag officers were saying exactly the same thing.
https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 4103074816

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jan 2017 01:11

I hope someone records this and puts it up on youtube....

On-board the submarine INS Sindhukirti as the Navy counters a growing Chinese sub threat
https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/8 ... 3426384896

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Jan 2017 17:38

It looks tailor made for the Naval Rafale,but cost could scupper it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby wig » 26 Jan 2017 20:16


Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jan 2017 21:16

Wig: as much as possible, PLEASE do not post entire articles from links. Title and link is sufficient. Copyright laws are fairly stringent now. If you want to make a point, quote a portion of the article. But nothing more.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jan 2017 23:53



Ghazi is the first film that will glorify Indian Navy: Rana Daggubati
http://indianexpress.com/article/entert ... i-4491430/
India says an Indian submarine, INS Rajput, downed Ghazi, while Pakistan says an internal explosion led to the sinking of its largest submarine ever. Let’s wait till February 17 to see what Rana’s Ghazi has to say.

DDM at its best! No Indian Navy submarine was ever named INS Rajput. The old Rajput was a R class destroyer acquired in 1949 from the Royal Navy and decommissioned in 1976, while the newer Rajput is a Kashin Class destroyer - the lead vessel in the Rajput Class of destroyers.

The Ghazi Attack will get Indian Navy the glory it deserves, says lead star Rana Daggubati
http://www.india.com/showbiz/the-ghazi-attack-will-get-indian-navy-the-glory-it-deserves-says-lead-star-rana-daggubati-1784227/
The film is going to be a special one indeed, as it is one of those rare Bollywood films that does not have a heroine, special songs or comedy.

Thank goodness!!! Last thing we need to see is one of the actors do a Shah Rukh Khan pose and then sing, Ho Gaya Hai Tujhko To Pyar Sajna!

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Jan 2017 00:15

Rakesh wrote:Navy issues RFI for 57 carrier fighters
http://www.stratpost.com/navy-issues-rf ... r-fighters


deliveries of the aircraft to ‘commence within three years post conclusion of contract, and be completed within further period of three years’


57 deliveries within 3 (possibly 6) years? Rafale would be challenged to meet such a timeline with their current backlog

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 00:22

Oh my. Look who just came out of the woodwork! We missed you :)

Yes you are correct. Only F-18 and F-16 can meet that goal. The rest all are useless. We completely forgot. Thanks for reminding us.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Jan 2017 00:25

F-16 doesn't operate off carriers

That said, if the IAF can't afford more than 36 Rafales (for now), how is the Navy going to afford 57 of the most expensive variant?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 00:27

I am sure you will come up with some solution for the F-16. Only Amreeka can light the path.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Jan 2017 00:52

Some say it is as a jest, make it truth. Officially commission all of India as one giant aircraft carrier with multiple 'flight decks'.

Then the F-16 can be a carrier-based fighter.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 04:37

A festive atmosphere - Indian Navy’s Missile Coastal Battery on display at Bandra
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/8 ... 8733266944

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 27 Jan 2017 04:40

Rakesh wrote:A festive atmosphere - Indian Navy’s Missile Coastal Battery on display at Bandra
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/8 ... 8733266944

I remember these being displayed during another exhibition in Mumbai back when I was a kid. Which missiles are these exactly?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 04:44

SS-N-2 Styx --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-15_Termit

Check out the SA-3 Pechora in the background.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jayasimha » 27 Jan 2017 18:29

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
27-January-2017 16:49 IST
Navy’s Theatre Level Exercise, TROPEX 17, gets underway

The Indian Navy’s Annual Theatre Readiness Operational Exercise (TROPEX) got underway on 24 Jan 17. The month long exercise will have ships and aircraft of both the Western and Eastern Naval Commands, as also assets from the Indian Air Force, Indian Army and the Indian Coast Guard exercising together. The exercise is being conducted off the Western Seaboard. The last edition of the exercise was conducted in January 2015.

TROPEX has grown in scale and complexity over the years and will see participation of major surface combatants and air assets of the Indian Navy including the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, nuclear submarine Chakra, Landing Platform Dock (LPD) Jalashwa, the recently commissioned destroyer Chennai, the P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft operating alongside SU-30 MKI, Jaguars, AWACS, IL-78 Flight Refuelling Aircraft of the Indian Air Force and Infantry units of the Indian Army. The exercise will be conducted in various phases, both in harbour and at sea encompassing the various facets of war-fighting and combat operations.

TROPEX 17 assumes special significance in the backdrop of the current security scenario. The exercise is aimed at testing combat readiness of the combined fleets of the Indian Navy, and the assets of the Indian Air Force, Indian Army and the Indian Coast Guard. It will also strengthen inter-operability and joint operations in a complex environment.

DKS/AC

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby uddu » 27 Jan 2017 20:03


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 21:40

Indian Navy pitches for three more multirole fighter squadrons
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017012710 ... squadrons/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 21:41

Indian Navy undertakes war exercise to test combat readiness
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 885_1.html

India’s inter-service military exercise ‘Tropex’ kicks off
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... f-4494692/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 21:50

Indian Navy kicks off global search for a carrier-borne fighter
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/i ... h-for.html

The navy’s “request for information” (RFI), posted on the web on January 25, does not specify whether it wants a single-engine or a twin-engine fighter. However, the expansive role capability spelt out biases the selection towards a medium-to-heavy, twin-engine fighter.

However, Saab officials, speaking off the record, confirm emphatically that they will offer the Sea Gripen. “We have done detailed feasibility studies that encounter no problem in evolving the Gripen E into a carrier-borne fighter”.

With regards to the second quote...it is beyond me as to how Saab believes they can win this competition for 57 naval fighters. They have not one, repeat NOT ONE, plane in active service of the Gripen E and they have temerity to offer a 'navalized' Gripen E to the IN. WOW! :roll:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 22:09

Veteran fighter pilot & ex-Indian Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash thinks India should go the CATOBAR carrier way
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/824888443020775425

reading the tea leaves tells me F-18 Super Hornet....

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Jan 2017 00:09

Could (Should) be the Rafale - M since it makes sense since it will already have a logisitical footprint in the country.

Rakesh wrote:With regards to the second quote...it is beyond me as to how Saab believes they can win this competition for 57 naval fighters. They have not one, repeat NOT ONE, plane in active service of the Gripen E and they have temerity to offer a 'navalized' Gripen E to the IN. WOW! :roll:


There are very few pure 4th generation competitions left for high end fighters so expect SAAB to try to compete fiercely in all of them. Even if that means offering a paper version of an un-tested variant of an aircraft for a challenging requirement where they are essentially saying "Pay us the money and we'll convert it from CTOL to CV". :D I wouldn't be surprised if Eurofighter didnt enter and offer to do convert the Typhoon...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dY8O2tinLyU/T ... n%2BIN.JPG

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby GeorgeWelch » 28 Jan 2017 00:43

brar_w wrote:Could (Should) be the Rafale - M since it makes sense since it will already have a logisitical footprint in the country.


that's only true if the logistical savings is enough to make it cheaper than (or at least comparably priced to) the SH, which I find doubtful. Any savings in logistics are likely going to be dwarfed by higher airframe and weapons cost.

And the SH shares engines with the Tejas, so there is some logistics similarity there

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Jan 2017 01:33

That's speculative since there is little in terms of component commonality between the F404 or the F414 while there is far greater commonality on the other side . So far there has been no movement on a potential Indian GE F414 buy in terms of a firm contract. The mission systems and weapons between these aircraft aren't common either so you'll be paying for two set of upgrades and would require two set of labs to work on the mission system upgrades down the road. Unless the F-16 is purchased there is no fighter in the IAF or IN's inventory that will share weapons with the F-18 so you will have to buy platform specific weapons, and build specific logistics for them. I'm not saying it either way but it kind of looks a no brainier unless the IAF intends on buying 100+ Vipers. Then at least there is weapons commonality and you can choose other systems that are similar (not common) on both aircrafts.
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Jan 2017 01:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 28 Jan 2017 01:39

brar could be right .. Reliance and Dassault getting into the bandwagon means a fighter line is going to come up pretty soon .. the air force 36 addon and the navy's requirement could touch 100 fighters ..not bad for starters ...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jan 2017 01:54

GW: your spin won't go far with brar! The man is a living encyclopedia. Super SMART! Best of luck! :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Jan 2017 02:04

I think one needs to look at the big picture here. Is it quite likely that a few years down the road the IAF could buy more Rafale's? I think that this is quite likely. Would the IAF look seriously at yet another medium sized twin engine fighter? I think this is very unlikely. Could the single engine fighter competition result in an F-16 purchase?

That could happen given what we have heard but I'd rather wait to see more movement on that front to assume that it likely to happen. Taking all this it's much smarter to bring economies of scale on the Rafale enterprise and pay more upfront to share resources across the IAF and IN. You'll have access to the same high end weapons like the Storm Shadow, Meteor that the IAF will end up buying anyways while you could then justify spending more cash a decade or so down the road to upgrade the aircraft more extensively given that the cost and benefits will be shared over a much larger fleet.

The only way the F-18 makes sense to me is if the F-16 is purchased in the amount the current SEMRF program suggests, the MK2 is pursued and procured in quantity, and the GE-F414 EPE is chosen for the AMCA. Then at least you'll get an advanced engine for both the F-18, AMCA and Tejas, and have a chance to bulk buy weapon types to support the IAF and IN fleets of F-16 and F-18.
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Jan 2017 02:19, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 28 Jan 2017 02:17

All that by 2020, then fine. If any of these slips later than that I just do not see the value prop. Might as well go for the F-35 or a FGFA that includes a naval version.

But, glaciers move too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Jan 2017 02:24

Unless things change, you are not likely to see something come out of this in terms of a firm contract till perhaps 2022-2025 time-frame.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 28 Jan 2017 02:37

When do *you think* the first squad (IAF or IN), of 4th gen, arrive?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby GeorgeWelch » 28 Jan 2017 02:43

brar_w wrote:That's speculative since there is little in terms of component commonality between the F404 or the F414 while there is far greater commonality on the other side


Sorry for not being clear, I was of course referring to Mk 2 with 414

brar_w wrote:So far there has been no movement on a potential Indian GE F414 buy in terms of a firm contract.


True, but the Mk 2 isn't ready yet. As far as Mk 2 being speculative, IAF better hope not or that means the Tejas is a dead end

brar_w wrote:The mission systems and weapons between these aircraft aren't common either so you'll be paying for two set of upgrades and would require two set of labs to work on the mission system upgrades down the road.


That's the advantage of the SH, the USN will be funding the development of upgrade packages so India won't have to do that.

brar_w wrote:Unless the F-16 is purchased there is no fighter in the IAF or IN's inventory that will share weapons with the F-18 so you will have to buy platform specific weapons, and build specific logistics for them


If the F-16 doesn't win, then it's the Gripen NG, and the Gripen NG supports US weapons and comes with the 414 too.

But I don't think it's actually that big of a deal, most navy logistics are going to be separate anyways and the US weapons are cheaper, so you're still likely to come out ahead, especially as any infrastructure is a one-time cost while weapons are expendable so any savings there will keep accumulating

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jan 2017 03:26

NRao wrote:When do *you think* the first squad (IAF or IN), of 4th gen, arrive?

The first lot will arrive in 2019 and all 36 will be complete by 2022.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 28 Jan 2017 03:41

BW vs. GW. This should be fun.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 28 Jan 2017 06:58

Without Cats, the FA-18E/F range will probably be lesser or about equal to F-35B. What are the lift width and payload capacities for both the carriers?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nick_S » 28 Jan 2017 07:12

While Dassault will try it's best to rip off India again, Boeing would try it's best to gain entry to the Indian fighter market. Even if Boeing makes zero profit from SH sale, it would still make sense for it in the long-term.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2017 07:43

We are talking of f18 for 65000t ins vishal or throwing away the mig29k on vikramaditya and vikrant?

Either way the best future proof and vfm option is.

Vstol model of jsf for the two current carriers
Ctol model for vishal with cats

Why would we want the hornet or rafale when a superior future ready platform is available with same weapons for a similar price

Jsf all the way..we need something to deal with planaf and plaaf flankers not thundars

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2017 07:47

I would not hang my hat on the amca. Tejas mk2 itself is taking a long time while the mighty j31 flies daily to rub it in. We are 15 years behind china in fighters and uav

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 28 Jan 2017 08:15

Looking around the net. China *already* has some 10 J-20s and more to arrive within a year. I would assume a rate of 10 a year - at the very least. By 2030 I would think they would have at the very least a 100-150 J-20s.

J-31. I bet they will make them for their naval assets. By 2030 I would expect 40-50 of them.

All that in addition to Flankers, etc and a huge fleet of truly good UAVs, many armed to their teeth (http://www.janes360.com/images/assets/1 ... lities.pdf).

This slow process of tendering, waiting (potentially cancelling), just will not cut it. IF LM/SAAB cannot complete delivery of a 100 planes by 2022, it really is not worth it. The reboot will start the day the delivery of a 4th gen is completed. IAF/IN will claim being deficient in all respects and start issuing RFIs.

Somewhere in the early-mid 2020s, China will invest in the next gen, if they have not started already. Russia has kicked that ball - so they claim. And, to think India would be still fiddling with a 4th gen - no matter which one - is sad.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 28 Jan 2017 08:59

Can the JSF use the Vik lifts?


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