Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

chola · Post by **chola** » 29 Jun 2017 18:52

JTull wrote:
Philip wrote:Chola,or are we backscratching Boeing by flying more hours so that they can rake in support costs?
This is like your comment in the artillery thread about need to buy guns but there not being any logic in expending 'pricey' shells. Perhaps that's why you love Russkie hangar queens so much as they're really cheap to buy and (since they can't be used much) really cheap to operate!

Except they are not that cheap even as hangar queens!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jun 2017 19:20

Which ones are hangar queens? All Russian aircraft are flying,even MKI availability has significantly increased.New service centres for all Sov/Ru weapon systems are being set up in India ,stocked with adequate spares,etc.,so that support is immediate. I don't recall saying the quote in the arty td. All I can recollect is the report about OFB ammo being below std. and the fact that we had to make urgent purchases of arty ammo from abroad.

WE are backscratching Boeing over the last C-17,as they were hunting for a sucker to buy the last bird for over two years.US reports. We are finally buying it for the princely sum of $366M.Instead of buying the "lone ranger", you can instead buy 12-10 MIG29UG std./35s for that price,or 6-8 MKIs/Gripens.Sadly,for the same price you can get only 1.5 Rafales.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Jun 2017 19:26

Why is the MOD bankrolling the Russian OEMs by buying spares for the aircraft, something needed to improve availability?

WE are backscratching Boeing over the last C-17

Or rather exercising an option baked in from the start and cleared by the IAF but not in time for Boeing to produce additional aircraft. Boeing announced back in 2012 or 2013 that it would eventually close down the Long Beach California facility and that it plans on producing 10 White-Tail C-17s. Others lapped 9 of those up leaving just 1 for the IAF against a sanctioned purchase of 3 since IAF did not get the nod to buy additional aircraft till two years after Boeing made the announcement. The acquisition process took 2 additional years from when the IAF was cleared to buy additional aircraft and when the FMS notification showed up.

This was a competition to see which acquisition system could move fast enough and pick up aircraft before others. Another way around this could have been to pay a deposit down or work with the US Government to make a G2G guarantee that additional aircraft would be procured so that a similar order could be placed with Boeing by the USG. In the absence of this, Boeing produced a finite number of aircraft it determined it could sell without overextending itself or taking too much financial risk. In the end, as it turns out they underestimated the demand by 2 aircraft since the MOD would have ordered them had they existed.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 506624.cms

EDIT -

Boeing announced in September 2013 that it would complete C-17 production and close the Long Beach final assembly facility this year. The manufacturer produced 10 “white tail” aircraft that did not have prior customer commitments. Nine of those aircraft since have been claimed. Qatar’s air force ordered four new C-17s, adding to the four it acquired earlier; with two ordered by Australia, one by Canada and two by an unnamed country in the Middle East. The final unclaimed C-17 is stored at San Antonio, Boeing said. LINK

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jun 2017 19:49

Some good news about the Betwa..Hopefully the return to service will take place on time.

Please,don't put words into my pen. The Bears were acquired 3 decades ago and the security situ was very different then compared to now. I've explained in detail the difference.The IN has lauded the aircraft's incident free performance for over 30 years. Enough said bu it. In fact,similar aircraft are still being used regularly by the RuN testing NATO and US allies both east and west. Bears of both variants,TU-95 bombers and TU-142 Bears carrying ASW weaponry as well as cruise missiles,recently tested Japanese defences.

It would be most interesting to see how many patrols were made of P-8Is ,tracking intruding subs.That would give us a good idea of how many PLAN/PN subs are testing our UW defences each year.There was a report some time ago mentioning a number of 7. But whether that was a total or annual number isn't too clear.P-8Is extra flying could also be explained by the numerous intl and bi-lateral exercises we've been holding in recent years,which never happened during the last two decades. Training flight crews on a new ASW aircraft could also explain the high usage.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Jun 2017 04:06

Philip wrote:Some good news about the Betwa..Hopefully the return to service will take place on time.

Please,don't put words into my pen.

Don't need to. You did say this did you not?

Chola,or are we backscratching Boeing by flying more hours so that they can rake in support costs?

Come on. Own it. You are accusing the IN of corruption here. Plain and simple. Just to explain why the P-8Is fly more than Tu-142s. Totally unnecessary. But you did it anyway.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Jun 2017 05:28

Philip wrote:But whether that was a total or annual number isn't too clear.P-8Is extra flying could also be explained by the numerous intl and bi-lateral exercises we've been holding in recent years,which never happened during the last two decades. Training flight crews on a new ASW aircraft could also explain the high usage.

Its a far more highly available platform since its built on a commercial airline frame. It is designed for near continuous ops! 12 of these are probably worth 30-40 bears just from an uptime perspective. The bears were hanging around at Goa airport in various stages of dismantlement over the past 10 years. It was great for its time, but the tempo, need and usage pattern for IN has changed in the past decade significantly. They served well. Hopefully IN can add 22-40 HALE UAVs and another 12-20 of these puppies to own Indian Ocean.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2017 08:08

why do the qataris and emiratis have so many C17? they have no global deployments , and their own countries are a 1 hr drive - by car.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 30 Jun 2017 08:31

Singha wrote:why do the qataris and emiratis have so many C17? they have no global deployments , and their own countries are a 1 hr drive - by car.

Ego. No way do these tiny countries with no expeditionary capabilities, need 8 C-17s.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2017 08:44

maybe they rent these out to USAF to fly in supplies to the huge bases like al udeid? these heavies would be co-located in such places.

or maybe petro dollar recycling back to west in exchange for guaranteed protection the US provides.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 30 Jun 2017 09:20

And Qatar was in the race to get the last C-17 that we are getting now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2017 12:14

i guess they have other issues on their mind now

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jun 2017 13:37

That was in jest note the

.But seriously,one would like to know the reasons for the heavy usage of the bird.New type,certainly extra usage for training flight crews,putting the aircraft through its paces,etc. How much time has been spent on patrols would be of interest (would be classified) and the number of intruding subs from the PLAN and PN sub ops.If we get the extra 4 P-8Is,it would add upto a total of 17 LRMP aircraft,including the upgraded IL-38SDs.We also have the large number of DO-228s used for MRP etc.

However,I have an interesting idea.The length of a DO-228,which we're manufacturing in large qty. is shorter in length than a MIG-29K.Though the wingspan is larger,folding wings could be designed and its height is just over a foot higher than a 29K,but less than a Sea King ASW helo,and length the same,so it could theoretically fit aboard our carrers.We could develop an AEW version of it and possibly fit the same planar radar/modified version ,of what we've used aboard our EMB AEW birds.The radar appears to be around 8-9m long and could easily fit on the Do-228. What we have to test is whether a DO-228 can first take-off from a ski-jump given for ex.,IAC-1's flight deck dimensions. This way,we could develop our own carrier AEW bird without being dependent upon any foreign manufacturer.It would cost a great deal cheaper too,with both aircraft and radar indigenously developed and already in service! I am sure that it would take just a year or so to be able to design and build a prototype of the same.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Jun 2017 14:42

^^ The payload capacity of D0-228 is peanuts - 2,340 kg - with the required structural strengthening and addition of radar, power & processing, the payload will be easily exceeded. Possibly a folding picket radar like Ka-31 could be fitted.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2017 14:50

also its undercarriage and overall structure (low slung) look unsuited. the hawkeye/C2 for its size has massive engines and a high ground clearance. however the older grumann tracer was a much smaller bird and might even be suited to our smaller carriers with a balance beam radar if we can get a similar size and shape of bird

on balance I would say its worth it navalising the Do228 with a new powerful engine and stronger longer legs. the radar processing and control stations can be downlinked, with a single operator up there to save on weight. it will be much faster and loiter long than KA31 and its radar aperture bigger.

while we may be able to buy some 4 E2 from usa, with a dornier based solution we can make as many as we want and get complete seaward surveillance. even if its not made carrier capable, we still need something below the vaunted C295 MRMP of which i have not seen hide or hair for a while

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 30 Jun 2017 15:57

I highly doubt the IN has the funds and wants to carrier-qualify a design which has never been used for a similar role. Testing a Do-228 for STOBAR, as an AEW system using the same radar as a Ka-31? Why??

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Jun 2017 20:37

Singha wrote: on balance I would say its worth it navalising the Do228 with a new powerful engine and stronger longer legs. the radar processing and control stations can be downlinked, with a single operator up there to save on weight. it will be much faster and loiter long than KA31 and its radar aperture bigger.

while we may be able to buy some 4 E2 from usa, with a dornier based solution we can make as many as we want and get complete seaward surveillance. even if its not made carrier capable, we still need something below the vaunted C295 MRMP of which i have not seen hide or hair for a while
]

Chinmay wrote:I highly doubt the IN has the funds and wants to carrier-qualify a design which has never been used for a similar role. Testing a Do-228 for STOBAR, as an AEW system using the same radar as a Ka-31? Why??

Better loiter time.

I fancied the dornier option earlier but realized that the bird needs a lot more power for STOBAR ops. Maybe a rato type solution.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 30 Jun 2017 20:59

chola wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Recall seeing SJha's tweet that we are designing next gen destroyers/cruisers. Let's wish atleast now they'll not design a ship that's under-armed for its size.

I hope the MOD or IN public relations department or whomever is in charge of propaganda could do these serial PR revealings of our upcoming systems as well as the ChiComs.

Since I've been following the chini war machine in earnest, I notice things occur in a pattern again and again that inevitably ends with a payoff to reward the watchers.

Things always begin with a few tantalizing pictures of what could be coming. In both the Type 001A carrier and the Type 055 DDG, they were pictures of landbased training platforms. Then came rumors of what they might be. Which led to endless discussions and hypothesizing with tons of photoshopped fanboyisms. Then hints from satellites and fleeting pictures taken from grown level. Soon you start getting more and more photos as you watch the thing get put together. Until it looks complete and you are anticipating a launch any day. And finally the thing launch and you get an explosion of photos from official sources.

These scripted revealings pull in a large international community of chini mil watchers. At PDF, the chini forum chief and head cheerleader is a German. Another resident expert runs well respected blog in French. Lots of Americans, of course, including an ex-USAF who pours some needed cold water when the Hans become too full of themselves.

I would love to see us reveal, say, the P15B followon in a similar fashion. Not that I want us to run things like a communist dictatorship with f--ing propaganda agency but having a "China Watchers" international community does give the PRC prestige and perception as a power that should be "watched." It would be nice to have "India Watchers" just saying.

Btw, I hear that the Vishakatapanam class at 7000 tonnes has provision for 32 more Barak 8 And 8 more Brahmos VLS. That can bring the total VLS tubes to 88.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 30 Jun 2017 21:01

I saw a tweet from Vijainder Thakur claiming that. BTW Kolkata class itself displaces 8100T ( saw a commander saying that to a news crew), I'd assume Vizag class will be around the same.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 01 Jul 2017 19:26

Cain Marko wrote: Better loiter time.

I fancied the dornier option earlier but realized that the bird needs a lot more power for STOBAR ops. Maybe a rato type solution.

anything that does not look traditional is a difficult proposition, RATO type solution with the rockets modded around existing missile boosters such as Pinaka might be helpful in moving over that 'initial evaluation' stage.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Jul 2017 21:13

Karthik S wrote:I saw a tweet from Vijainder Thakur claiming that. BTW Kolkata class itself displaces 8100T ( saw a commander saying that to a news crew), I'd assume Vizag class will be around the same.

Wikipedia says :
7,400 t (7,300 long tons; 8,200 short tons) full load[

Same for both Kolkata & Vishakhapatnam

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 01 Jul 2017 21:47

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Karthik S wrote:I saw a tweet from Vijainder Thakur claiming that. BTW Kolkata class itself displaces 8100T ( saw a commander saying that to a news crew), I'd assume Vizag class will be around the same.
Wikipedia says :
7,400 t (7,300 long tons; 8,200 short tons) full load[

Same for both Kolkata & Vishakhapatnam

Jump to 00:14, you'll get the figure.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Jul 2017 22:06

abhijatT · Post by **abhijatT** » 02 Jul 2017 00:25

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/nirbha ... 195215.ece

On the naval variant of Tejas–Mark II (light combat aircraft), Dr. Christopher said the prototype was ready and had fullfilled the parameters of ski-jump on board aircraft carriers. But the Navy had been insisting on twin engines and they were working on the power of the engines. “We are also looking for strategic partners and the partner may be a foreign firm that would provide back-end support,” he said.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 04 Jul 2017 09:05

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/amid-bo ... 432702.cms

Amid border stand-off, Chinese ships on prowl in Indian Ocean

"Indian naval satellite Rukmini (Gsat-7), long-range maritime patrol aircraft like Poseidon-8I and warships have monitored at least 13 Chinese naval units in the IOR over the last two months. They range from the latest Luyang-III class guided-missile destroyers to the more benign hydrographic research vessels," said a source.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Jul 2017 09:18

CJ-10 and YJ-18 missiles are formidable threats.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 04 Jul 2017 10:17

CAG reported mig29 k have availability rates approaching to 8%. IAF doesn't want to back scratch Russians.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Jul 2017 10:49

Its probably those Indian pilots who push the planes too hard!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2017 11:27

DO-228s to carry not the KA-31 AEW radar but a version of the planar radar used in our AEW&CS aboard the EMB's ERJ-145 platform.As mentioned the size of the aircraft is smaller than an ASW Sea King and would be compatible with the hangars aboard the VikA and IAC-1. STOBAR trials could be carried out using the land facility at Dab Goa. IN any case there's plenty of time for dev. as IAC-1 is a few years away from being commissioned and IAC-2 expected only around 2030.LR UAVs another option,but would not have on board AEW operators,consoles,etc. relying upon data transmission back to the carrier/base.''TOI reports that the PLAN have sent a surge of around 13 warships,hydrographic ships,etc. into the IOR just as the temp. heats up in the Himalayas. It appears that they're taking the threat of India responding in the maritime dimension v.seriously. I'm sure that our Bears,just retd. could in a crisis be back in the air ,as they can carry a much larger and more deadly load of anti-ship missiles,etc. than the P-8Is.

If the IAF is looking (sensibly) for a twin-engined naval fighter,then its bye-bye Sea Gripen.

PS:I found some v. interesting stats for Bear ops during the Cold War from old US sources. In the late '80s,18/17 USN subs detected (by Bears) for two consecutive years,with annual 13K-14K+ hrs. ops from dozens of sorties.It indicates the high level of sub ops during the CW,which have dropped off a lot since then.With the huge Chinese expansion of its fleet and Russian return to CW sub patrol time,ASW is seriously back in biz.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Jul 2017 11:29

Katare wrote:CAG reported mig29 k have availability rates approaching to 8%. IAF doesn't want to back scratch Russians.

We must pay a billion dollars a month to the Russians to support the 29 k in order to make it work. You know it is not the fault of Russians is the requisite ransom was not paid to them. In order to make the 29K fly.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Jul 2017 11:32

Philip wrote:DO-228s to carry not the KA-31 AEW radar but a version of the planar radar used in our AEW&CS aboard the EMB's ERJ-145 platform.As mentioned the size of the aircraft is smaller than an ASW Sea King and would be compatible with the hangars aboard the VikA and IAC-1. STOBAR trials could be carried out using the land facility at Dab Goa. IN any case there's plenty of time for dev. as IAC-1 is a few years away from being commissioned and IAC-2 expected only around 2030.LR UAVs another option,but would not have on board AEW operators,consoles,etc. relying upon data transmission back to the carrier/base.''TOI reports that the PLAN have sent a surge of around 13 warships,hydrographic ships,etc. into the IOR just as the temp. heats up in the Himalayas. It appears that they're taking the threat of India responding in the maritime dimension v.seriously. I'm sure that our Bears,just retd. could in a crisis be back in the air ,as they can carry a much larger and more deadly load of anti-ship missiles,etc. than the P-8Is.

Recall our discussion about use of backfires, how I wish we had those now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2017 11:33

i think the russians themselves are at a loss wrt to the Mig29K given the deployment of the kuznetsov off syria last autumn.
it failed to generate a single combat sortie and 2 ac had to ditch in sea before it turned tail for its lair in the barents sea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2017 11:35

Bears/Backfires are not qualified to carry the current brahmos and the lighter one is nowhere to be seen, nor is the nirbhay which anyway lacks a anti ship seeker. unless we have a range of qualified weapons, platforms are moot point. 2+0 != 4

so our best bet is torpedoes and Klubs from submarines to tackle serious matters.

my vision would be large nos of long range SLAM-ER/JASSM type weapons - subsonic but smart and accurate to be fired from all fighters and heavies, SSKs and smaller ships
and smaller number of klubs, brahmos and hypersonic weapons from the larger ships , subs and flankers.
all of these can be timed by the airborne strike commander on P8 to arrive on the radar horizon of the enemy fleet at same time to complicate it, like "MRSI" in the artillery playbook.

lacking our own weapons and platforms the integration and support matrix is complex.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Jul 2017 11:37

Wow...8%. Must be a new record of sorts

I remember how Negi-ji had mentioned that the 29Ks were a lemon at the time of induction based on his chaiwallh sources and was pooh-poohed by a few folks saying its just induction niggles. Guess the story is much worse than that

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2017 11:44

there is a record of few Su33 from Kuzzy launching a strike on Idlib/Homs with 500kg bombs using gefest bomb sight, but none at all of the equal number of Mig29k doing anything useful over Syria.
1 Mig29K and 1 Su33 were lost due to arrester wire problems.

we btw have the very same kit on vikky.

my proposal would be
- use the Mig29K as a naval strike squadrons from land spread the 60 or so across 4 squadrons - 2 in car nicobar/panagarh and 2 in guj
they can also help the IAF in defending the guj/raj front as they have all the systems for over the sea ops.

- convert the vikky into a arsenal ship by putting in some 60 brahmos cells and 60 shourya & pralay missiles into where the hanger are.
being a speedy ship, she can accompany the DDGs at 30 knots easily.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2017 11:57

Singha wrote:i think the russians themselves are at a loss wrt to the Mig29K given the deployment of the kuznetsov off syria last autumn.
it failed to generate a single combat sortie and 2 ac had to ditch in sea before it turned tail for its lair in the barents sea.

The Mig-29K and Su-27 flew 400 combat sorties and hit about 1000 targets in Syria during Medetarian Ops by MOD

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18397/ ... VswhlFLeHs

The only reason they had to ditch is because the arrestor hook broke off in one case and second case they did not sent it back to land think it would be fixed and it ran out of fuel

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Jul 2017 11:57

Singha wrote: my proposal would be
- use the Mig29K as a naval strike squadrons from land spread the 60 or so across 4 squadrons - 2 in car nicobar/panagarh and 2 in guj
they can also help the IAF in defending the guj/raj front as they have all the systems for over the sea ops.

The Mig 29 K (Kakkoose) should be handed over to the IAF to be inducted into squadron service with the wing fold mechanism frozen and welded down. Maybe the IAF can maintain and run it.

convert the vikky into a arsenal ship by putting in some 60 brahmos cells and 60 shourya & pralay missiles into where the hanger are.
being a speedy ship, she can accompany the DDGs at 30 knots easily.

The Adm. Gorshkov (and also Kuzentsov) had such unreliable machinery that they always ventured out in accompanied by a ocean going tug , including the recent Syrian deployment ! That probably is as much a large Kakkoose as the Mig 29K and SU 33K it carries.

The only consolation is that the Cheeni Liaonig /Ding dong has the same machinery and even crap*ier planes it carriers. Not much otherwise out of the whole dreary saga.

Pride of Russian Navy Kutzentsov Doing 30 Knots (while pulled by a tug) .

And the Navy wants to buy more of these kind of Kakkoose .

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 04 Jul 2017 12:09

Katare wrote:CAG reported mig29 k have availability rates approaching to 8%. IAF doesn't want to back scratch Russians.

Is there a difference between the availability rates and the serviceability rates ?

As per this 2016 CAG report, the serviceability reports for the MiG29Ks hovered between 15.93 per cent to 37.63 per cent (page 75).

The reliability of the fly-by-wire was very poor, ranging from 3.5 per cent to 7.5 per cent between 01 July 2012 and 30 June 2014 (page 73)

Truly atrocious. No wonder the IN is looking for other options

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2017 12:17

Yes,the babus in MOD must be scratching their heads right now.What lack of foresight.WE were offered Backfires by Brezhnev!

Incidentally,in the Ru weapons td.,there's news of new advanced MBU rounds been developed for anti-sub/decoy/anti-torpedo purposes.These can in the future replace exg. round that we have on our ships which have ASW MBU systems.The rounds can descend to 1000m deeper than any sub can dive.

Nirbhay,as reported failures due to recycled material used for the wings! I did comment about the poor quality of the missile when first revealed,esp. when compared with BMos. BMos is a separate corp. entity,JV with Russia,while Nirbhay is a DRDO project.Therein lies the difference.

Laugh at the Kuz,its tugs,etc.but it did the biz in Syria,something that the entire might of the US couldn't do at all!The Russians ,using tough,reliable,easy to operate eqpt. from Sov. days including Bears,Backfires,Blackjacks,Kilos,SU_25s,etc.,used old and new weaponry like Kalibir missiles,to turn the tide Assad's way,plus shrug off the attempts of the so-called "Syrian rebels",Western/Arab mercenaries to poach on Syrian interests.

Reg. 29K problems,an excpt. from a report .I've said before since Russia is acquiring a few doz. of them for the RuN,we should (if the problems are not rectified) return them to be rep[laced by new perfected ones. There must be guarantees in the contract for any such defects. Whatever aircraft the IN acquire,should be used both aboard our carriers as well as from naval air stations in the A&N theatre for example. Russia,China have considerable numbers of frontline strike aircraft which operate from land bases as well as LRMP types.

"The engine-design defects should be rectified with the utmost urgency at the Russians' cost," Prakash said. "Any respectable company, conscious of its reputation, would attend to this. But the oligarchs who control the Russian military-industrial complex are too brazen, for two reasons: (a) they know that India has not choice and (b) they are confident that Indian politicians will never turn the screw on them."

However, retired Indian Navy commodore and independent defense analyst, Sujeet Samaddar, gave no credence to the CAG report.
"I firmly believe auditors have no experience or professional ability to comment on technical matters of a modern state — just putting numbers and percentages."

A Ministry of Defence official would not comment in detail on the CAG report, but said: "MiG-29K will remain the primary combat fighter for the Indian Navy."

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 04 Jul 2017 12:19

vina wrote: Pride of Russian Navy Kutzentsov Doing 30 Knots (while pulled by a tug) .

Sir - it is actually a special add-on. The next gen AC ('Kangalroos'), which India will have to fund, will feature inbuilt tugboat - As soon as the AC stalls, the front section opens up.. the tug comes out.. and pulls the AC

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Jul 2017 12:46

Philip wrote:Laugh at the Kuz,its tugs,etc

Even the "Kakkooses" (i.e. the toilets) in that floating Kakkoose called Kuz doesn't work. Many reports around that the toilets are simply locked up. Dang a sailor in that Kakkoose can't even go to the Kakkoose to take a dump! It really is THAT bad.

As for Syria,the Kuz broke down some 2700 km from home on the way back in the Bay of Biscane and had to to be towed back home. In a combat situation against an effective adversary, it was toast !