Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[Cain Marko]

They let us do that as it doesn't meet our needs without the modifications. They recognize that and instead of fixing it, let us mod it to meet our needs. Its not out of goodness of their heart. They leave the headache of integration to us so that they are not held responsible for making it all work.

So true. They give us a 80% product and watch from the sidelines as we fall over ourselves trying to fix their missing bits. And then take all the credit for the hard work we do in making the aircraft or tank or whatever work to begin with. So if IAF beats USAF in some exercise, no mention of ROE or Indian ingenuity in tactics. Its always how great Russian gear was. If anything doesnt work, those blasted Indians can't do it and then comments about how India is no longer appreciating Russia and all sorts of snide commentary about our programs.
Yes, behind the scenes there has been some really positive cooperation, but we have paid in hard cash for that. As our economy grows (and is not mismanaged), the line of folks who want to work with us, will steadily increase. Russia simply doesnt seem to understand that without proper service and spares, they will lose their hold on the Indian market.

While your larger point is well made and taken, the point that nobody recognizes Indian tactics or jugaad is a thing of the past. Even the mighty USAF had to acknowledge the IAFs innovative tactics.

The true usp of Russian hardware is the fact that not only can we customize their wares, but the costs are considerably cheaper than Western counterparts.

There is a reason why the IAF never got the mirage in the 90s and instead landed up with the mki, which even though, was hardly an mki at the time. Even so, a plain su30 or 27 too will be more than a match for any mirage.

So, this whole thing about Russian hardware being bakwas compared to Western maal is a no go, at least not in terms of performance.

Furthermore, it's not like India didn't have to fix and tweak Uber Western gear. The Jaguar is a good example.

[Philip]

....and the Brits had broken the German codes and new exactly where each U-Boat was when Berlin sent orders!

Before we get to leveraging Malaysia and Indonesia,look what happened in our very own backyard in Sri Lanka.Hambantota is now under Chin rule.We were offered the port first,sneered at its poor commercial value but forgot totally about its strategic value-priceless! The Chins are moving in and when they number thousands upon thousands,that part of the island will in effect have become a Chinese overseas territory for 99 years.Long enough for them to achieve their plan of global dominance. Colombo's Port City-also hocked to the Chins,is now to be a "Financial City".Another Macao,full of vice and spice,just off India,with independent financial rules akin to Dodge City. Watch India's money run over there.Next on the List is Trinco.Watch this space.We could yet again "drop the catch".Decades ago I warned everyone about the future Chin gameplan. A close sr.dpl. pal of mine while agreeing with me,said that "Delhi viewed things differently and don't listen to us..." Even gents on BRF around 18 yrs. ago sneered at me when I said that we would see Chinese subs and warships on a regular basis in the IOR within a couple of decades.Another prediction-that the Chins would head for the Gulf through Pak also came through with Gwadar. My insight into the Chin mind has been talking with those who've known them for a long time. One FM ,pal of India,just back from China was worried and admonished me , warning me -this was just after the millennia,that China was planning a huge breakout and for our size India and our MEA were behaving (diplomatically) like a midget.

And let's not talk about the Maldives.I tell you this though.This sad state of affairs would not have happened on RG's watch. It's now 3 years into the NDA-2's innings and it has had enough time to rectify much in our neighbourhood. While Mr.Modi has done well traversing the globe restoring ties with many old friends,nearer at home the challenge has been far greater and we've had few successes. Sadly the situ has deteriorated further.Small gains by the MEA like an ICJ seat won is nothing comparable to your allowing worst enemy camping outside your backdoor,the route that the Europeans took when they conquered India.Nepal has just voted in the anti-India commies and the sh*t will soo hit the fan when the Chins flock to Nepal in large Nmuber as "tourists".In retrospect,India's foreign affairs have been disastrous over the last few decades.We have the Cong./UPA primarily to blame.The hope when mr.Modi was elected as PM,was that swift,concerted focussed action would be taken especially to sanitise the neighourhood,but it is precisely here where the situ has worsened .

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 380382.ece

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 872370.cms

CBGs are vulnerable to sats,LRMP and now long-endurance drones.As rightly said,all it takes is for the detected task force's position to be relayed from Command HQ/NHQ and let its most capable assets take it out through massed missile strikes including those from subs. The Syrian conflict has shown us both Kilo subs launching Kalibir missiles far inland in Syria and little corvettes doing the same from the Caspian Sea! The success of the latter is making the RuN churn out at fast rates, more corvettes armed with Kalibir and other cruse missiles,a much cheaper alternative than building large numbers of expensive capital ships. The Sov. era Oscar class,still being rehabilitated,one built for every US carrier,could carry 20 LR N-tipped anti-carrier supersonic missiles. Once the CBG was located,..."let go!" Every IN platform large enough that can accommodate anti-ship/land attack missiles ,should be so armed.They could start at the Tarantula class replacements right upto capital ships,including OPVs.Even CG assets must be able during wartime to perform coastal MCM and ASW duties. After all we've leveraged our OPVs to fire Dnanush.

[Prasad]

China already has one OTH radar in Hubei to look at the Pacific. Coupled with monitoring satellites, that gives them decent surveillance capability. Their latest facility in Inner Mongolia is another OTH radar that is supposed to look at NK, Japan, SK sector. Another in SE china to look at our side may not take too long.

[Philip]

....and the Brits had broken the German codes and new exactly where each U-Boat was when Berlin sent orders!

Before we get to leveraging Malaysia and Indonesia,look what happened in our very own backyard in Sri Lanka.Hambantota is now under Chin rule.We were offered the port first,sneered at its poor commercial value but forgot totally about its strategic value-priceless! The Chins are moving in and when they number thousands upon thousands,that part of the island will in effect have become a Chinese overseas territory for 99 years.Long enough for them to achieve their plan of global dominance. Colombo's Port City-also hocked to the Chins,is now to be a "Financial City".Another Macao,full of vice and spice,just off India,with independent financial rules akin to Dodge City. Watch India's money run over there.Next on the List is Trinco.Watch this space.We could yet again "drop the catch".Decades ago I warned everyone about the future Chin gameplan." Even gents on BRF around 18 yrs. ago sneered at me when I said that we would see Chinese subs and warships on a regular basis in the IOR within a couple of decades.Another prediction-that the Chins would head for the Gulf through Pak also came through with Gwadar. My insight into the Chin mind has been talking with those who've known them for a long time. One pal of India,just back from China was worried and admonished me , warning me -this was just after the millennia,that China was planning a huge breakout and for our size India was behaving (diplomatically) like a midget.

And let's not talk about the Maldives.I tell you this though.This sad state of affairs would not have happened on RG's watch. It's now 3 years into the NDA-2's innings and it has had enough time to rectify much in our neighbourhood. While Mr.Modi has done well traversing the globe restoring ties with many old friends,nearer at home the challenge has been far greater and we've had few successes. Sadly the situ has deteriorated further.Small gains by the MEA like an ICJ seat won is nothing comparable to your allowing worst enemy camping outside your backdoor,the route that the Europeans took when they conquered India.Nepal has just voted in the anti-India commies and the sh*t will soo hit the fan when the Chins flock to Nepal in large Nmuber as "tourists".In retrospect,India's foreign affairs have been disastrous over the last few decades.We have the Cong./UPA primarily to blame.The hope when mr.Modi was elected as PM,was that swift,concerted focussed action would be taken especially to sanitise the neighourhood,but it is precisely here where the situ has worsened .

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 380382.ece

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 872370.cms

CBGs are vulnerable to sats,LRMP and now long-endurance drones.As rightly said,all it takes is for the detected task force's position to be relayed from Command HQ/NHQ and let its most capable assets take it out through massed missile strikes including those from subs. The Syrian conflict has shown us both Kilo subs launching Kalibir missiles far inland in Syria and little corvettes doing the same from the Caspian Sea! The success of the latter is making the RuN churn out at fast rates, more corvettes armed with Kalibir and other cruse missiles,a much cheaper alternative than building large numbers of expensive capital ships. The Sov. era Oscar class,still being rehabilitated,one built for every US carrier,could carry 20 LR N-tipped anti-carrier supersonic missiles. Once the CBG was located,..."let go!" Every IN platform large enough that can accommodate anti-ship/land attack missiles ,should be so armed.They could start at the Tarantula class replacements right upto capital ships,including OPVs.Even CG assets must be able during wartime to perform coastal MCM and ASW duties. After all we've leveraged our OPVs to fire Dnanush.

[Karthik S]

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Indigenous Submarine Kalvari to be Commissioned tomorrow at Mumbai

[Philip]

A signal moment.Finally after 3 decades we are commissioning a conv. diesel sub! The success of the
ATV programme with the launch of the second Arihant class sub, a far greater achievement is being taken for granted instead.Well one supposes the huge veil of secrecy about the same.

[ArjunPandit]

A signal moment.Finally after 3 decades we are commissioning a conv. diesel sub! The success of the
ATV programme with the launch of the second Arihant class sub, a far greater achievement is being taken for granted instead.Well one supposes the huge veil of secrecy about the same.

with multiple submarines coming 'online' IN will have its hands full in training in the coming years, will it require recruitment or being the 'designer's navy' they would have planned well ahead about everything

[Karan M]

While your larger point is well made and taken, the point that nobody recognizes Indian tactics or jugaad is a thing of the past. Even the mighty USAF had to acknowledge the IAFs innovative tactics.

There is a reason the US won the cold war. They acknowledge the best of whatever the other guy has, and quickly incorporate it. The attitude of some Russian firms though - seems to merely regard India as a captive market & in their cozying up to PRC, Indian interests are often forgotten.

The true usp of Russian hardware is the fact that not only can we customize their wares, but the costs are considerably cheaper than Western counterparts.

Well, our MKI is two decades into customization and we are having to fix the fact the Russians have no modern RWR + SPJ combo. And the Russian purchased systems are too heavy and wont work with other ones either. Their AAMs dont work either. So where are the cheaper costs.

There is a reason why the IAF never got the mirage in the 90s and instead landed up with the mki, which even though, was hardly an mki at the time. Even so, a plain su30 or 27 too will be more than a match for any mirage.

A plain old Su-30 or Su-27 will struggle against an equivalent Mirage 2000 V of the same era (Su-30 K vs Mirage 2000-5) because the latter has an integrated EW suite, a fully multirole RDY radar, proper ARH missiles & everything works. In the Su-27/30, the missiles were SARH, the EW suite was lackadaisical.

The breakup of the FSU did a number on the Soviet MIC & their corrupt folks in Rosoboronexport clearly didn't feed back enough for the missing pieces to be properly fixed either.

So, this whole thing about Russian hardware being bakwas compared to Western maal is a no go, at least not in terms of performance.

Great performance in some areas but as complete platforms, the Russian ones are often delivered with missing pieces which the customer has to run around for. Its ok if you are an Israel with a complete avionics complex plus weapons, but for India, which wanted mature capabilities off the shelf, the Russian alternative often turns out no better than the so-called immature Indian one.

How many T-90s have fully capable, as in all-weather TI sights which don't conk out in the heat? This is two decades after induction. The Russians could not or would not fix a sight issue while selling over 1500 tanks to a primary customer. They refused to transfer basic tech for gun barrels, armor.. the list went on & on &

Furthermore, it's not like India didn't have to fix and tweak Uber Western gear. The Jaguar is a good example.

The difference is in the quantum of the fixes. And the criticality. Western gear, top of the line items, usually come more mature with better spares.

And the threat of sanctions.

And the threat of EJs running around telling pagan Yindoos how to behave. Like Sarkozy hectoring MMS.

The only answer to all this is to grow our own MIC and integrated sets of capabilities - eg radar, EW, weaponry so we can retrofit those items into Russian or other platforms without having to shop around for solutions in a 100 places. Invest in ourselves.

I like Russian gear but am really fed up of the attitude of Russian companies treating Indian requirements as "chalta hain" and providing slip-shod service and support plus acting all high and mighty when it comes to even JVs such as PAK-FA (IAF not getting real access to the aircraft). They are forcing India to turn to alternative suppliers.

[Karan M]

The CBG article is written by some naval academy kiddo. His numbers are all over the place, JF17 and Mirage have combat radius of 1200km and Su 30 MKI has 1000km combat radius.

Keeps talking about some mythical A2/AD edifice that Pakistan posses making it’s entire coastline impregnable but does not define it. What would those MPAs would do but to run with their tails tucked under their wings when they see a carrier and its supersonic fighters coming for them. MPAs are great for terrorizing surface ships or even subs but it’s nothing but a death wish for them to ever encounter a CBG with fighters on combat patrol. Having a carrier with a squadron of 4+ gen aircraft in the back makes every ship in that entire theater so much more capable, informed and secured that CHG doesn’t even need to directly fight anything.

Now no one buys a small carrier to use it to conquer an entire nation by itself but one can write a very compelling article beating up this straw man argument of one’e own creation.

A few Styx from a bunch of small boats literally sank a chunk of the PN and set Karachi oil tankers ablaze. And he insists that 20+ MiG-29s wont do anything to damage Pakistani infrastructure? This with todays Urans & PGMs.

[Cybaru]

While your larger point is well made and taken, the point that nobody recognizes Indian tactics or jugaad is a thing of the past. Even the mighty USAF had to acknowledge the IAFs innovative tactics.

The true usp of Russian hardware is the fact that not only can we customize their wares, but the costs are considerably cheaper than Western counterparts.

There is a reason why the IAF never got the mirage in the 90s and instead landed up with the mki, which even though, was hardly an mki at the time. Even so, a plain su30 or 27 too will be more than a match for any mirage.

So, this whole thing about Russian hardware being bakwas compared to Western maal is a no go, at least not in terms of performance.

Furthermore, it's not like India didn't have to fix and tweak Uber Western gear. The Jaguar is a good example.

What comes to my mind is the 80/20 rule. The amount of work remaining to make sensors work together or sensor fusion is a lot. Given that we don't own lots of source code, it really does become difficult. I am not even sure how we manage it, but we do. Given that we manage doesn't mean we should have to do it. Super MKI will see a lot more sensor integration than before, all that work will be left to us, individual components will be supplied and how we make sense of it is our headache. In a way it is good as we get experience, but had we bought F-15/F-18 instead of MKI, all this would be standard. We may still would have to integrate signals coming out of these platforms on the AFNET, but that goes without saying that is true for all platforms we buy.

For that reason alone I think IAF recognizes that the PAKFA in the current form has a lot of work remaining and most of it will be done by HAL-led-consortium. If we are successful with either SAFRAN or RR to create a 120-130KN engine for AMCA and if uttam is successful, we will probably be ahead of the game as the remaining bits would be same with AMCA. I do feel the Pakfa will end up becoming Stealthy Super-30 and both will end up getting exactly the same avionics and electronics. One will have lower RCS than other, that's about it. There aren't different grades of sensors available with ruskies to create a differentiation in products. IAF needs to insist that it is same/similar to ensure pilots are qualified on one version of platform to make going between squadrons easier.

So the true USP of buying russian hardware is like buying a unfinished kit and spending time finishing it as we see fit. Each persons kit and the performance differs due to the nature and effort put into the finishing process! Western manufacturers customize and ship you finished product. Each has its own reasons and pros/cons, but none of it are dictated by the goodness in their heart. That is what their industry is geared to provide.

[KrishnaK]

Something I've been pointing out to the forum submarine champions. SSKs score against carriers only in exercises,
where the rules will be skewed to make it easier for the SSK to detect and track carriers. How otherwise can an SSK track
down a CBG in the vast expanse of an ocean without enormous amounts of luck ? Even nuke subs with their endurance should
find it extremely hard to track down a CBG, the area that needs to be covered is vast. It seems this probability can be skewed in the
submarine's favour through only intelligence or external input of some sort.

A carrier group can fairly easily be tracked by satellite and it cannot hide. Along with many other countries, we also have such capabilities.

Most non Indian men of war are anyway tracked by the IN in its area of interest

The sub can be vectored to intercept the carrier if it is fortuitously placed in relation to the carrier

Do not claim to be an expert - I think not. It's not easy to detect naval ships and then track them at all.

Is it possible for a nation to track all the US aircraft carriers by satellite in real time

Its then very difficult for satellites to do the combined job of detecting, identifying and tracking a ship contact. The platform has to get the wide area detection of a target in an orbital path 90mins in duration, that is advancing over the surface of the globe itself and against a target set that’s moving 20knts or so in any direction it chooses. It then has to determine which of the many hundreds of blobs on the scope are likely to be the ship you are looking for. Then a follow up pass at higher resolution setting has to be made hoping that the target hasn’t moved out of your field of regard during the backside of the orbital path.

You can mitigate some of this by having multiple satellites in a constellation with second and third satellites a few minutes behind each other in the orbital path. That allows multiple contacts to be imaged, but, is still no guarantee that you’ll catch the correct contact in the first place.

Satellites are one platform for trying to follow ships at sea. They have some huge limitations though. Theoretically then if you had enough satellites on orbit…probably dozens of constellations (and in context the Soviet Union never had more than 3 US-A satellites on orbit at any one time I can recall) you could hold multiple tracks on US carriers. In reality though its wildly impractical.

But most importantly, when the shooting starts, it wouldn't be too hard to shoot those satellites down. If satellites could do persistent tracking, in real time, almost all warfare could be reduced to firing missiles. That hasn't happened yet.

[KrishnaK]

CBGs are vulnerable to sats,LRMP and now long-endurance drones.As rightly said,all it takes is for the detected task force's position to be relayed from Command HQ/NHQ and let its most capable assets take it out through massed missile strikes including those from subs. The Syrian conflict has shown us both Kilo subs launching Kalibir missiles far inland in Syria and little corvettes doing the same from the Caspian Sea! The success of the latter is making the RuN churn out at fast rates, more corvettes armed with Kalibir and other cruse missiles,a much cheaper alternative than building large numbers of expensive capital ships. The Sov. era Oscar class,still being rehabilitated,one built for every US carrier,could carry 20 LR N-tipped anti-carrier supersonic missiles. Once the CBG was located,..."let go!" Every IN platform large enough that can accommodate anti-ship/land attack missiles ,should be so armed.They could start at the Tarantula class replacements right upto capital ships,including OPVs.Even CG assets must be able during wartime to perform coastal MCM and ASW duties. After all we've leveraged our OPVs to fire Dnanush.

I understand you're excited about Russia flexing its muscles, but there's nothing very special about the Kalibir. ISIS dumps are not the same as tracking and hitting a CBG. Tracking CBGs isn't going to be easy at all even by satellites, let alone LRMPs and drones. They will get shot down.

[KrishnaK]

Soviet Capabilities to Counter US Aircraft Carriers - May 1972

This is pretty dated, but still makes for a good reading.

A carrier on the open ocean probably could avoid surveillance, at least during the initial stages of hostilities. Strict control of communications and other electronic emissions would prevent tracking by the Soviet radio direction finding network, and the efforts of Soviet reconnaissance aircraft could be defeated by a combination of air defenses and the extensive area to be searched. Soviet aircraft flying peacetime reconnaissance missions, for example, are frequently intercepted by fighters based in Iceland, the United Kingdom, and Japan, as well as by carrier-based aircraft. Although aerial reconnaissance efforts are supplemented by the use of surface ships and submarines in some areas, this tactic is less feasible in the open ocean.

Another problem for the Soviets is the breakdown in command and control systems could seriously hamper anticarrier operations, which depend on coordination of dispersed forces for effectiveness.

No satellites here, but all this is very close to what brar_w has mentioned multiple times. Tracking CBGs during peacetime is one thing, tracking them during war, especially when the other party has decided to initiate hostilities will be entirely something else.

[Philip]

The article on IN "light" carriers is a curious piece.Like the "curate's egg".That phrase came from a cartoon in the sadly extinct satirical mag " Punch", where a bishop and curate are having breakfast.The Bish. tells the curate that he's got a bad egg, but the curate replies that "parts of it are good!".The good parts being sanitising choke points, etc.

So our modest CVs are simply useless against Pak's mighty airfleet, never mind if a dozen 29Ks armed each with 2 ASMs are able to sink the bulk of the PN in just one sortie! The author has forgotten that RN Harriers were conducting strikes in Afghanistan too.HMS Ark Royal conducted day and night ops in a 5 yr. campaign by the RN against the ungodlies with their modest STOVL Harriers, less capable than our 29Ks.Imagine the plight of Gwadar or even Karachi attacked from the sea in a combined 2 carrier strike, accompanied by a coordinated LR missile strike of salvoes of BMos .BMos-L/NG is on the cards and 29Ks will be able to carry possibly 2, at least one. Remember that the earlier 300km range is now passe.New estimates give at least double the exg. range, some even talk of a 900km possibility!

And we aren't talking about what tune the IAF will be playing in the combined "orchestra " to the Paki audience.Remember that in '71 we had both bands playing their tune at Karachi on the same night.
Not a firangi sardine is going to brave breaking an IN naval blockade knowing that 2 IN CVs are operating in the Arabian Sea, where fate can arrive in the short warning time of less than 20 secs.The PN's P-3s unless protected by PAF fighters able to extend their range for the P-3s to be effective, will be easy pickings to IN carrier aircraft.In fact , LR land attack missile strikes against PN/PAF air bases to nobble its LRMP assets among other things, will be part of the opening "music.Chinese assets in the IOR attempting to assist Pak will be swiftly stir-fried.

The IN is going to use all its assets together as a combined force, to bring max. destruction upon the enemy rather than independent carrier ops.Even if the CVs were operating on their own- accompanied by a supporting cast of escorts, only the PN's subs would stand a chance of surviving and all their principal naval bases attacked from the seaUnderestimaing India .They too would be relentlessly hunted down by IN subs, including our Akula SSGNs and conv. HUKs.In time to come, even more SSNs and HUKs to be added to the UW fleet.

Underestimating the capabilities of the IN's carriers is good news for us.The author appears to have a Chin "forefather".Therein lies the possible answer.

[Philip]

PS: PAF aircraft will find it v.difficult searching for the IN CBGs operating around 700km+ off the Paki coastline moving around constantly .Their AWACS/AEW assets will principally be used in monitoring IAF aircraft in the air-ground war on their eastern borders.Pak's principal naval assets are its sub fleet.The sooner we obtain our ASW helos to equip the fleet , the shorter the lifespan of Paki subs will be.

[Cybaru]

I don't think we have to put fleet in water to enforce blockade of Pakistan. Brahmos with 900 kms range can be fired from ships in port or from ground based assets. P8I with MKI escorts can direct whatever needs directing. what am i missing?

[Philip]

Hunting Paki naval assets operating in the Arabian Sea, exterminating them so that free movement of our merchant/tanker fleet from the Gulf is ensured, also cutting off their oil supplies and destroying their bases on the Makran coast, turning them to toast.Gwadar to be obliterated , terminating the Chin gambit.Our fleet must put out to sea and become invisible.Remaining in port is inviting trouble.

[brar_w]

No satellites here, but all this is very close to what brar_w has mentioned multiple times. Tracking CBGs during peacetime is one thing, tracking them during war, especially when the other party has decided to initiate hostilities will be entirely something else.

One must also understand what the offensive role of a CBG is during a near peer conflict. It isn't, and wasn't FDOW decapitation strike. It has and will always be sustained operations after your first few salvos have exhausted your VLC capacity and you require volume to be brought in, in a sustained manner. The remaining mission focus is sea control and defensive protection to seapower operating in a theater. This means that they can leverage stand off distances to their advantage till a point that the initial VLC salvos have, hopefully, allowed them to get closer with lower risk.

[Rakesh]

PM Modi to commission 'Kalvari' into Indian Navy today
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 728480001/

Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Thursday will commission India's first indigenous Scorpene-class submarine, Kalvari, into the Indian Navy at the Naval Dockyard here, in the presence of other officials. Kalvari is a potent Man o' War capable of undertaking offensive operations spanning across the entire spectrum of Maritime Warfare. The overall length of the submarine is 67.5 metres and is about 12.3 metres in height. The construction of the submarine, designated as MDL Yard 11875 commenced in December 2006. The 'Boot Together' of the submarine wherein the five separate sections were welded into one was completed in July 2014. Kalvari is the first Indian Naval vessel to be built using the modular approach of construction. It was hauled out on Pontoon from the East Yard Dry Dock of MDL in the presence of the then defence minister Manohar Parrikar in April 2015. The submarine was first put on sea on May 1, 2016, following which it underwent a comprehensive trial schedule to validate her capability to float, to move, and to fight towards the last. Equipped with cutting edge technology, the submarine is compared to favourably with the best in the world. The hull form, the fin and the hydroplanes are specifically designed to produce minimum underwater resistance. Kalvari's 360 battery cells (each weighing 750 kg) power the extremely silent Permanently Magnetised Propulsion Motor and its stealth is further enhanced through the mounting of equipment inside the pressure hull on shock absorbing cradles.

It's undersea warfare capability comprises a cluster of advanced weapons and sensors integrated into the Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System (SUBTICS). The sonar suite is Low Frequency Analysis and Ranging (LOFAR) capable enabling long rage detection and classification. The submarine may also choose to engage the enemy by utilising either the sea skimming SM 39 EXOCET missiles (Flying Fish in French) or the heavy weight wire guided Surface and Underwater Target (SUT) torpedoes. On the other hand for self-defence, Kalvari is fitted with mobile C303/S anti-torpedo decoys. It also has two 1250 kW MAN Diesel Engines for rapidly charging batteries. The crest of Kalvari, like all other Indian Naval ships depict three sail ships at the top commemorating India's rich maritime heritage, which is followed by the Ashoka Chakra flanked by a Horse and a Bull on either side. The third depicts Kalvari a Tiger Shark in Malayalam, which symbolises agility, strength and predatory prowess. The motto of the submarine is "Ever Onward" and its logo comprises of three distinct yet closely interlinked elements. The external ring in grey symbolises the port hole of an enemy warship. A fearsome steel grey tiger shark representing Kalvari herself is depicted surging through the enemy porthole with deadly intent. The sea in the background is aflame subsequent to the attack. The pattern of the waves in black and orange pays tribute to the Tiger Shark's namesake the Royal Bengal Tiger.

[Rakesh]

What Good Are the Indian Navy's Aircraft Carriers Against Pakistan?
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/what-go ... -pakistan/

The Indian Navy is devoting enormous resources to the development of an effective, multi-ship carrier force. It remains unclear, however, precisely how the Indian Navy would use that force in the event of a rekindled war with Pakistan. A recent Naval War College Review article by Ben Wan Beng Ho sheds some light on the problems that India’s carrier force might have in taking the fight to Pakistan. Long story short, India’s carriers would face enormous risks in undertaking offensive operations, with very uncertain benefits. Ho argues that the need for self-defense, combined with limited deck space, make it very difficult for INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya, either separately or in tandem, to threaten Pakistani land installations. Pakistan’s A2/AD network, including submarines, aircraft, and surface ships, poses a credible threat to the carriers, making their use in offensive operations very risky. Conceivably, Pakistan could even attack Indian carriers with tactical nuclear weapons, if the war developed in that direction. The Indian carriers would struggle to execute a close blockade of Pakistani ports, destroy the Pakistani surface fleet, or do much damage to Pakistani military targets on land. Ho suggests that the carrier fleet would be better employed as a decisive late-war weapon, after Indian Air Force assets had worn down Pakistani defenses. This would have the benefit of enabling India to bring its entire carrier force to bear. Ho also argues that the carriers could play a productive role in sea lines of communication (SLOC) protection, which might also allow them to threaten Pakistani lines of communication. Ho details the problems associated with small-deck carriers, especially the limited number of aircraft to share offensive and defensive missions. The need for self-protection is not entirely problematic; Indian carriers will undoubtedly receive a great deal of attention from potential opponents, drawing resources away from other military operations.

Other Indian naval forces could either use this misdirection to conduct offensive operations, or could rely on the defensive umbrella provided by the carriers. But some core problems remain. Indian naval strategy envisions three operational carrier battle groups undertaking more or less the same tasks. But Indian naval procurement has produced a plan to acquire three carriers with radically different capabilities, meaning that the actual utility of the carrier battle group in crisis conditions will depend upon which carrier is operational at a given time. We also have no clear idea regarding the reliability of the two existing ships. Vikramaditya is an old Russian hull that underwent controversial late-life transformation into a STOBAR carrier; Vikrant is a purpose-built STOBAR carrier, but will be the largest warship ever constructed in India, with all of the potential reliability issues that this entails. The two ships are similar but not identical, meaning that maintenance and flight procedures will vary in potentially consequential ways. This makes sharing aircraft and pilots a dicey proposition. Moreover, as Ho notes, the reports we have regarding readiness in the naval aviation program are not great. The MiG-29K has been a carrier aircraft for less than a decade, and has never been subjected to a demanding, up tempo set of combat operations. Anecdotes from the Russian experience do not suggest optimism. While Vikrant and Vikramaditya will provide important opportunities for learning, the Indian Navy may need to wait for the commissioning of INS Vishal, projected in the 2030s, to have a real offensive capability against Pakistan. By that time, however, the lethality of Pakistan’s A2/AD umbrella may have significantly increased.

[Rakesh]

Some good shots of INS Kalvari who is being commissioned today. I wish her happy "carrier" hunting

She is beautiful. Very nice finish. Great job!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ-jm3sU8AALTeN.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ-Aex2U8AIBrw8.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ7WjltUEAA467U.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ-ZDKZVoAMLTce.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ-ZEDmVQAAQyDS.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ-ZE9GVAAAQKFd.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ-ODJuV4AAeTKq.jpg

https://twitter.com/sandeepunnithan/sta ... 6458592256 --> 17 yrs! Commodore Rajesh Sarrin, CO of last conventional submarine INS Sindhushastra inducted in 2000, with Commander Srikrishna Mehendale, CO of INS Kalvari.



https://twitter.com/onlysarang/status/9 ... 8255196160 --> And the CO of the erstwhile INS Kalvari. Commander K S Subramanian, attending today's commissioning.

[Rakesh]

Q. Do we have similar courses for IAF and Army officers in their respective fields?

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 1982147587 --> 25 officers of the Indian Navy and 1 officer of the Indian Coast Guard got their Post Graduate Diploma Degree in Naval Construction: Warship and Submarine Design (Architecture) at IIT Delhi.

[ArjunPandit]

Not to play spoilsport on a good day, just want all of us to remember the security leak on these submarines..hope navy took care of the resulting issues...

[Manish_P]

Happy hunting, INS Kalvari. May your invisible presence show up as visible fear on the faces of the enemy. Ever onward.

[Philip]

A day of great satisfaction.Great to see the present and past COs together.That link between the past and present is essential for the gorious traditions to be passed down and on to future generations of servcicemen.

Back to the carrier debate.Land based missiles like BMos-and we also have Prahar and (Pralay to come?) don't come cheap,plus the inventory will be limited.No point in using an elephant to kill a rat,or pig! It isn't just eliminating the PN's assets,but also preventing their merchant fleet from operating using a blockade.That factor ,esp. oil supplies is critical.During Kargil,I was told by a sr. officer that Pak's supplies would run out within a few weeks,we'd intercepted their commns.,and that the PN was told to avoid at any cost clashing with the IN! Lloyds also (during '71) allegedly refused to insure traffic heading for Pak after the Karachi attacks. Starved of oil and supplies,the Paki mil machine would run out of steam v.fast and the stress upon the civvy establishment feeding and supplying the population adding to the problem.Just a couple of "flaming datum" in the Arabian Sea would scare off even firang merchantmen. As Brar has pointed out ,sustained ops (I've mentioned how the RN used its Harriers in Afghanistan for 5 years!),can only be delivered by carrier based aircraft unless you have a friendly nation willing to let you use their air bases for your air force,as the US enjoyed against Iraq and the Russians in Syria and Iran just recently.

The IN does require a 3rd carrier and fast,(Chin's second local built CV ,a clone of the Varyag/Liaoning has arrived)as the 65K CV may take too long to build and cost more than we can afford right now.A sister ship of the Vikrant-2 ,with improvements,is perhaps "low hanging fruit",which could be built in 5-7 yrs time at CSL,also affordable,arriving by 2025.Two larger N-powered CVs could be planned for 2030+.3 med sized CVs ,plus sufficient land-based long-legged LRMP and Backfires operating out of "INS India" and the islands will compensate as "unsinkable" carriers .The Russians are flying Bears out to test British/NATO airspace regularly from the Arctic bases.

[mody]

Which torpedoes does INS Kalvari have?
Most reports claim wire guided heavy weight torpedoes? Have they installed any torpedoes or are we waiting for Varunastra to be qualified for submarines?
Also, have Varunastra been installed on any of the surface vessels as yet?

[Philip]

Unless a G-to-G deal is swiftly sealed our Scorpenes will be relatively toothless,equipped only with a few Exocets! This recent report says that 3-4 yrs will it take for the fish to arrive! It was asinine to punish the naval arm of the Leonardo Group when the AW issue is with the helo division only.Most EU defence manufacturers have now consolidated themselves into huge MNCs.The same has been done in the US and Russia too. AW alone should've been punished ,a penalty/fine imposed as per the agreement,and a limited ban.For a co. once banned for illegal activities,it would be most careful not to do so the next time a tender came around. The GOI should've been pro-active and brave in going ahead with the original order,especially as these fish were supposed to also serve aboard out new SSBNs!

It was hinted not too long ago that as an interim measure,perhaps the German fish used on the U-boats would be sued on the Scorpenes.

Navy scouting for torpedoes for Scorpene submarines in ₹2,000-cr deal
NAYANIMA BASU

French Naval Group, Germany’s Keil, Swedish major SAAB among contenders

NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 1:
The Navy is once again scouting for torpedoes for its Scorpene-class submarines in a ₹2,000-crore deal, after the Defence Ministry cancelled a deal in 2015 in the wake of the AgustaWestland scam.

The Navy is believed to have sought proposals from leading torpedo makers in France, Germany, Russia, Sweden and Japan for a total 150 torpedoes. These are to be mounted on the six Scorpene submarines built by Mazagon Dock Ltd via transfer of technology with French Naval Group (formerly DCNS) under the Project75 (P75) programme, sources told BusinessLine.

The companies have been asked to respond by October 9 with details of how the torpedoes are going to be integrated with the French-designed submarines and the concurrent cost associated with it, said the sources.

The company selected for P75 will also be allowed to supply torpedoes for the Navy’s ₹60,000-crore P75(I) programme, under which the government plans to build more contemporary and upgraded submarines, as the Scorpene programme is already decades old, as are the submarines.

“The challenge is going to be that of categorisation. The tender process itself will take three years and then the torpedoes will have to be integrated with the submarines, which will take another two-three years, if not more. Unless there is a government-to-government deal, things are expected to drag on,” said a representative of a leading Indian defence firm, requesting anonymity.

The Centre is believed to have approached Germany’s Keil, a unit of thyssenkrupp, which produces SeaHake torpedoes in collaboration with EADS; France’s Naval Group, which makes the F-21 heavyweight torpedoes, and Swedish defence giant SAAB.

All six Scorpene submarines are expected to be commissioned by 2020. The first of the Navy’s submarines — NS Kalvari — is expected to be commissioned by September-end. The second — INS Khanderi — was launched in January and is presently undergoing sea trials. It is expected to be delivered by next year.

However, these submarines will be commissioned without torpedoes. During their sea trials, the Navy had used 20-year old torpedoes from its inventory.

Under the previous deal, the Navy was to acquire 98 Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes from WASS, a subsidiary of Italian firm Leonardo. WASS had won the deal over Germany’s Atlas Elektronik, but it was ultimately scrapped.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 840281.ece

[Chinmay]

Which torpedoes does INS Kalvari have?
Most reports claim wire guided heavy weight torpedoes? Have they installed any torpedoes or are we waiting for Varunastra to be qualified for submarines?
Also, have Varunastra been installed on any of the surface vessels as yet?

SUT

[sarang]

whats SUT?

[Rakesh]

SUT --> https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... RC_ID=1821

[Austin]

Five years late, Scorpene submarine INS Kalvari joins navy

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 14th Dec 17

After 11 years in construction at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL), the first Scorpene (French for scorpion) submarine, INS Kalvari, was commissioned into the Indian navy by Prime Minister (PM) Narendra Modi in Mumbai on Thursday.

The Kalvari is the first of six conventional submarines for which the navy signed a Rs 18,798 crore contract in 2005 with French-Spanish submarine consortium, Armaris. That company was taken over by France’s Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS), and its cost went up to Rs 23,562 crore. In June, DCNS changed its name to Naval Group.

All six Scorpenes were to be delivered between 2012 and 2015, but that schedule has slipped to 2017-2020. The second vessel, INS Khanderi, is currently undergoing sea trials and is on track for delivery in March. The other four are scheduled for delivery, according to the defence ministry, at nine-month intervals till mid-2021. Naval Group however said in a statement on Thursday that the Scorpenes “will be delivered at a rate of one every 12 months. By that estimation, the last Scorpene would be delivered in early 2022.

Compounding the five year delay in building the Kalvari, the submarine has been languishing for almost three months after it was handed over to the navy, fully built and tested, in September. Since then, it has awaited the PM’s availability for half a day for the commissioning ceremony.

In the event, a galaxy of VIPs attended the ceremony, included Maharashtra governor, Vidyasagar Rao, Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, Minister of State for Defence, Subhash Bhamre and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval.

According to the “commissioning warrant”, read out by Kalvari’s first commanding officer, Captain SD Mehendale, the vessel has joined the navy’s Western fleet. This means it will primarily operate in the shallow waters of the Arabian Sea, blockading Pakistani ports and naval bases in wartime and sneaking up on enemy warships to destroy them with torpedoes and anti-ship missiles. It could also be used to blockade shipping from West Asia, entering the Arabian Sea through the Strait of Hormuz.

In a war with China, Indian submarines would blockade four major south east Asian straits – Malacca, Lombok, Sunda and Ombai Wettar – preventing Chinese warships based in the South China Sea from crossing into the Indian Ocean.

Even in peacetime the Indian Navy has, since June, continuously maintained a submarine and a surface warship off the Andaman Islands on “Malacca Domain Awareness” patrols, as part of a new posture of “mission based deployment”.

In fulfilling multiple operational tasks, the six Scorpene boats (as navies refer to submarines) will be a welcome addition to the navy’s aging fleet of 13 conventional submarines. These include four 20-30 year-old, German-origin HDW 877 EKM boats (called the Sindhughosh-class); and nine 10-20 year-old, Russian-origin Kilo class Type 209 vessels (called the Shishumar class).

The Kalvari is being commissioned almost exactly on the Silver Jubilee of the navy’s submarine arm. On December 8, 1967 the navy commissioned its first submarine, a Soviet Foxtrot-class boat that was the original INS Kalvari. That boat’s captain, Commodore (Retired) Subramanian attended the commissioning in Mumbai today.

The new Kalvari is a technological marvel compared to its forebear. Displacing 1,565 tonnes, it is 67.5 metres long and 12.3 metres high and is powered by a quiet “Permanently Magnetised Propulsion Motor” that drives it underwater at 20 knots (37 kilometres per hour, or kmph) and, while surfaced, at 12 knots (22 kmph). There are plans to equip the last two Scorpenes with advanced “air independent propulsion”.

A submarine’s key attribute is stealth, since it is extremely vulnerable once an enemy detects it. Stealth comes from reducing engine noise and from silencing the boat’s internal systems. In the Kalvari, systems are mounted on shock absorbing cradles to dampen vibrations and reduce its noise signature.

The defence ministry says the Kalvari is armed with the heavyweight, 533-millimetre, wire-guided Surface and Underwater Target (SUT) torpedo, an old German armament acquired in the 1980s for the navy’s four 877 EKM (Sindhughosh class) submarines. The navy had initially chosen the modern Black Shark torpedo, built by WASS. That option fell through when the defence ministry banned all buys from Finmeccanica group companies (including WASS) after Italy began investigating corruption by Agusta Westland (a Finmeccanica company) in selling VVIP helicopters to India.

Besides the outdated SUT torpedo, the Kalvari packs the Exocet SM39 anti-ship missile, built by the Franco-British-Italian conglomerate, MBDA. The defence ministry says the Kalvari has already “undertaken successful torpedo launch as well as the navy’s maiden SM 39 Exocet combat missile firing on 02 Mar 2017.”

Like all underwater predators the Kalvari is superbly equipped to detect targets. It uses sonar and ranging equipment that is integrated into a digital Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System (SUBTICS). This includes a Low Frequency Analysis and Ranging (LOFAR) sonar, which detects and classifies targets at long ranges (exact ranges are a closely guarded secret). Its periscopes are equipped with infrared and low light cameras and laser range finders.

Naval Group says the Kalvari is the fifth Scorpene submarine in the world. It has already delivered two each to Chile and Malaysia. In addition, four are under construction in Brazil.

While commissioning the Kalvari, the PM described INS Kalvari as a prime example of “Make in India.” In fact, Project 75, as the Scorpene procurement is named, pre-dates “Make in India” by 18 years. In 1999, the cabinet approved the navy’s 30-year submarine building programme, which involves the indigenous construction of 24 submarines by 2029. Project 75, to build six submarines, is the first part of that.

Alongside Project 75, six more submarines with “air independent propulsion” are to be indigenously built under Project 75-I. The defence ministry has allocated this to the private sector under the “Strategic Partner” policy, and a Request for Information has gone out to global vendors. Subsequently, Project 76 would kick off, which envisages the indigenous design and construction of 12 more submarines.

[VKumar]

Q. Do we have similar courses for IAF and Army officers in their respective fields?

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 1982147587 --> 25 officers of the Indian Navy and 1 officer of the Indian Coast Guard got their Post Graduate Diploma Degree in Naval Construction: Warship and Submarine Design (Architecture) at IIT Delhi.

IIT KGP had a B. Tech in Naval Architecture.

[ashishvikas]

INS Kalvari’s Commissioning Marks The Revival Of Diesel-Electric Submarine Construction In India

By Saurav Jha - December 14, 2017

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... -in-india/

[Gagan]

INS Kalvari commissioning video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvz4xfQ55x0


PMs speech at the commissioning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY2kUTtr6Rw


Pl disregard the "Parmanu" word here. The uploader of this video is not aware.

[Aditya G]

repluggin my post on Vikramaditya in Indo-Pak scenario ...

A lot of people simply assume that a carrier has no utility in the Indo-Pak naval theatre. Further, we are simply no match for the chinese fleet and hence no point in having a carrier at all.

Pakistan Navy's strategy will be to create a safe zone close to their coastline to provide for security to their ports and ships. IN's objective will be to penetrate it by killing PN's ships and destroying their defences. This will be done by the surface navy sailing for the Paki coastline at different points. Both PN and PAF can challenge them as they will have 'home advantage'.

The Vikramaditya's captain claimed that he can provide a 250Km radius protective bubble around himself. I have juxtaposed the same against PN's cordon. Once can clearly see that Gwadar, Pasni, Ormara, Karachi will all be 'bottled up' by the carrier task force place in the northern Arabian Sea. When this happens prior to start of hostilities, it will have to weigh in on their planner's mind - hence power projection value of the carrier.

The carrier can also in this position counter any offensive moves by PN P-3s and PAF Mirages who will be looking to break out and attack Bombay High and Trombay.



Caveat: this is an amateur's analysis. Both IN and PN have better qualified people to decide what they have to do in war!

[sudeepj]

Since we are doing amateur analysis, let me put in my two cents

First strikes on Pak naval assets will be carried out by shipborne missiles, both Brahmos and Nirbhay, launched from cheaper platforms such as the Kashin/Talwar class. The carrier will only provide defensive CAPs and AEW during this phase, staying a hundred or more knots away from the forward deployed platforms. Its role will be to protect the Kashins/Talwars from any counter strikes. The targets will be Pak LRMP assets, their lone squadron specializing in marine strikes, submarine communication facilities, sub support facilities and the subs themselves.

During this time, the IAF shall also be pounding the PAF and once PAF capabilities are degraded enough, the next phase of ops, this time with the carriers in an offensive role will begin. We may see a seaborne invasion of Karachi with our large Magar class and the forthcoming copies of Trenton/Jalashwa playing a major role. The pukes will be dared to nuke Karachi since they are so fond of doing tael malish of their 'tactical nukes'.

[Philip]

Nice to see AS mix up the HDW U-209s as Kilos and vice versa!

Knowing the IN, to imagine that the IN will use its carriers against Pak in a defensive supportive mode only is erroneous.From our past experience of '71 , with the venerable Vikrant with its gammy boiler and vintage Sea Hawks and Alizes, pounded the Paki naval establishments at Cox's Bazaar and it's riverine ports inflicting great damage. It will pick holes in Paki defences and will attack in strength using all its naval assets especially its carrier strike aircraft. Tactics and real time data will determine which assets go into action first or with combined coordinated a trikes.
If you remember the '71 attacks there was total confusion with the Pakis , not knowing whether it was IAF air strikes or naval action that was causing the destruction and chaos.

I would ideally like to degrade the Paki ability to sanitise a 300km zone from its coastline as much as possible , which would mean probably BMos attacks from 600+ km out by warships and at closer range by aircraft ( depending upon the range of its stand-off ASMs) at the principal air bases and naval air establishments, which support its air assets of PAF aircraft ,naval LRMP Orions and it's AEW aircraft, These would be its first line of defence against a repetition of '71.The PN also posseses missile craft and frigates armed with decent Chinese anti-ship missiles butt with inferior range and speed compared with the variety of anti-ship missiles in the IN's arsenal.BMos will be its
principal strike weapon both against naval and land targets, to degrade defences allowing follow on strikes from all quarters.PN warships and missile craft if venturing outside its protective air umbrella would be inviting disaster.We may see however missile duels between PN and IN warships for the first time.The sub war is also going to be quite intense with the IN on overdrive to locate and destroy the Paki's sub fleet, it's principal asset.

[Philip]

PS: Amphib ops against the Paki coastline v.unlikely as we are yet to possess dedicated amphib assault ships.They would also require huge air support for the invading forces and here the limited aircraft aboard the two carriers would be felt.Instead, we may see special forces action, MARCOS commandos ( from subs) engaged in surgical strikes at specific targets which would add to the confusion.

PPS : The US won the Cold War becos it successfully outspent Moscow in arms procurement.Reagan's "Star Was" programme beggared the SU as its state regulated conomy could not compete with the US's vibrant free market.

[Rakesh]

IIT KGP had a B. Tech in Naval Architecture.

Thanks, but wanted to know if similar courses exist for IAF and Army officers in their respective fields?

i.e. Crystal Blade Technology. Very crucial for modern engines. So courses in metallurgy.

[Philip]

Some media angst reg absence of fish on the sub."toothless tigershark" and huge delay in the Scorpene programme.Adm.Bhagwat gives some v.intg. info on hiding in thermal climes ideal depths for summer and winter, and news that the GOI is negotiating with for Black Sharks yet again.

In the 12 years it has taken to build our first Scorpene, China has built 40 subs!