Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Jan 2017 22:55

The Mig-29ks are extremely good planes which are also extremely difficult to keep in the air. But recently, the availability of the su-30s were brought up from 40 odd percent to 65 odd percent. The goal is to get to 75. So why cannot the same be done with the Migs.

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Jan 2017 23:02

Cosmo_R wrote:
Russians play games line this
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articl ... 9-2013.asp

Bite the bullet and replace them with F-35Bs Just make sure that the deck plating can absorb the heat.

Crap! I never trusted the Russians but I felt sick after reading about Algeria canceling their "brand new" MiG-29 order after finding out they were composed of substandard and fake parts. How many of our pilots have suffered injury and death from shit parts just like what the Algerians rejected? We had always just complained that the MiG-21/27 were just old. But it might be far more insidious than that because we have massive issues with the MKI as well.

I feel absolutely sick and really want someone punished. I hate the fvcking Russians but worst still are those babus insisting on buying dangerous crap from them. Natasha on their mind and lun no doubt. I want them drawn and quartered.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 20 Jan 2017 23:48

I just love the Roosi Rakshaks on BRF!! Hail Mother Roos!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Jan 2017 00:10

Making the 322 LRU's at home for MKI will probably cut down counterfeiting and really allow the SME infrastructure to develop atleast of critical components.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jan 2017 00:14

Crap! I never trusted the Russians but I felt sick after reading about Algeria canceling their "brand new" MiG-29 order after finding out they were composed of substandard and fake parts.

That is what you do when your nose is about to go under water and you have no shame left!!!

I think the only aircraft left for MiG to be in the game could be single engine version to accompany the PAK-FA.

The MiG-35 may have some life left, but not for too long.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jan 2017 00:15

Cosmo_R wrote:Bite the bullet and replace them with F-35Bs Just make sure that the deck plating can absorb the heat.

Deck plating is not a problem - they can just lay out some AM-2 on the landing zones and they'll be fine.

The real problem is the width of the elevator. If its less than 11 m (which it might be), the Rafale will become a non-option as might the F-35B.

The only choice in that case will be between the MiG-29K, Super Hornet and the F-35C.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2017 00:21

INS Vikramaditya to become first ever warship with ATM on-board
http://www.news18.com/news/india/ins-vi ... 38590.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2017 00:27

Indian Navy plans to induct two Scorpene Class submarines this year
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 029_1.html

First submarine is Kalvari, second is Khanderi and third one will be Vela. We plan to induct two Scorpene submarines this year and launch third one into Indian waters," he said.

The naming scheme is quite interesting. Because the Foxtrot Class came in two batches of four boats each. Kalvari Class boats that all started with K (Kalvari, Khanderi, Karanj and Kursura) in the late 60s and Vela Class boats that all started with V (Vela, Vagir, Vagli and Vagsheer) in the early to mid 70s. Mix it up!

chola · Post by **chola** » 21 Jan 2017 00:28

Rakesh wrote:INS Vikramaditya to become first ever warship with ATM on-board
http://www.news18.com/news/india/ins-vi ... 38590.html

Was the Navy paying in small notes before DeMo(di)?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2017 00:48

India aims to induct two new conventional submarines this year
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr

The French F-21 and German SeaHake torpedoes are the main contenders in the fray, while the Black Shark torpedoes are also theoretically in contention because the government is yet to actually scrap or withdraw the original tender.

If the above is true, then this is the height of stupidity!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2017 01:05

PM Modi pledges to make India the sole dominant power in the Indian Ocean
http://defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249988

chola · Post by **chola** » 21 Jan 2017 01:08

Rakesh wrote:India aims to induct two new conventional submarines this year
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr
The French F-21 and German SeaHake torpedoes are the main contenders in the fray, while the Black Shark torpedoes are also theoretically in contention because the government is yet to actually scrap or withdraw the original tender.
If the above is true, then this is the height of stupidity!

Submarines to be inducted without torpedos, yes that scales the height of stupidity. The subs were delayed five years and yet even with so much extra time something as important as the main armament has not been decided yet. The babus in procurement undoubtedly thought since the construction was late they can just wait until the thing was completed first . . .

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2017 01:15

I am surprised as to why have two new contenders, when the MoD has not even scrapped the original agreement? What is wrong with these people?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Jan 2017 01:20

i think the newspapers will make noise and this will allow the govt to scrap the investigation and justify urgency and just buy from the blacklisted company.

chola · Post by **chola** » 21 Jan 2017 01:47

Scorpene first of class was due in 2012. VVIP scandal broke out in 2013 with Black Shark procurement in doubt.

Sub delayed to this year (2017) and yet no heavy torpedo selection? What is the game? To pile on delays?

wig · Post by **wig** » 21 Jan 2017 10:19

http://tribuneindia.com/news/nation/chi ... 53320.html

Chinese subs permanently sailing in Indian Ocean

Posing a fresh challenge to India, one or two Chinese submarines are now permanently sailing in the Indian Ocean, testing New Delhi’s abilities to keep an eye on under-sea threats.
The Navy has flagged the matter to the government about the continuous presence of Chinese submarines, floating either in the Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea or the Bay of Bengal. Though the subs are in international waters, the visits are no more sporadic in nature.
For the past one year or more, submarines of the People Liberation Army Navy are constantly noticed, Navy has told the government. The world’s busiest sea lane of communication runs from the west of India and passes through the Bay of Bengal. China’s trade moves on these routes and so does India’s and Japan’s, among others.
With submarine technology becoming more sophisticated, tracking these under-sea vessels is a challenge. China has 61 submarines, including nine nuclear-powered, allowing longer endurance. At present, China is just testing waters and there is no aggressive posturing, sources said.
A submarine, under-sea, can ‘pin down’ six-seven warships just by instilling the fear of unknown and track ship movements. The Navy’s most potent ability to track submarines is the Boeing P-8I maritime patrol aircraft. Eight are in the fleet and another four are on order. The aircraft have the ability to quickly search a wide area of water.
Such is the threat that the Navy wants even the planned 100-odd naval utility copters to carry an anti-submarine weapon. The Kalvari class diesel-electric submarines have ASW suites. The Kalvari and Khanderi, the first two of the subs, will be commissioned within this year.
A new set of ASW-capable helicopters are on the anvil. An ASW helicopter with its sea-dunking sonars is a favoured platform for detecting a submarine as an over flying copter itself cannot be found or targeted by a submarine. The ASW-capable Kamov 28 copters are being modernised, sensors upgraded and the copters will undergo a technical overhaul to enhance the copter’s life.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jan 2017 12:04

Apart from PLAN subs,there will now be Chinese built subs belonging to 3 nations permamently in the IOR as well.Pakistan with *YUans,Bangladesh with 2, and now Thailand with 3.Just wait for China to sell Sri Lanka subs too! This will enable Chinese naval personnel to also be based on a more or less permanent basis in these countries in support of these sub ops,with Chinese submariners also undertaking patrols in :training" exercises.A brilliant strategy to encircle India underwater.patheticaly,we have offered sub training to BDesh in a knee-jerk reaction after the event,when we cannot evven provide them with a single old sub!

Our Scorpenes,3 perhaps to be commissioned before the year end will sail majestically without their main armament torpedoes! The blacklisting of AW and its parent co. ,Finnmecc.,also defies logic.Rolls Royce has now been found guilty of bribing Indians to get the Hawk deal with RR engines for the same. Will RR now be boycotted? They've reportedly paid a fine. The helo division of AW should've been made to pay a stiff penalty,but banning products from the conglomerate has only hurt India and the IN. With huge mergers of def. cos all over the world,esp. in the EU crossing national boundaries,a more discerning and focussed ban/penalty should be imposed upon cos. that indulge in bribery,etc.The GOI/MOD should've long ago amended the policy on the same ,so that other divisions of a conglomerate are not affected,esp. when there are no desi alternatives readily available. In this regard,why are the indigenous "fish" developed by the DRDO unsuitable for the Scorpenes? On which subs then will they be used? Similarly,when a Kilo refit (second refits by the way) ,literally rebuilding an old sub first taking it apart is costing is approx $100M a boat,to extend the life another 10 yrs only,isn't it better to acquire new boats which are built at the rate of one/yr. at a cost of just $300+M? These new boats would serve us at least another 25 yrs.

More on the Thai acquisition:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/01/when-are ... -thailand/

When Are China’s Submarines Coming to Thailand?
2017 could finally see some progress on a high-profile deal.

7XRzjYON
By Prashanth Parameswaran
January 20, 2017

In a surprise move back in June 2015, Thailand’s navy elected to buy three submarines from China in what would be one of the most expensive single acquisitions in the country’s history (See: “How Did China Just Win Thailand’s New Submarine Bid?”).

Since then, although the debate about the wider strategic significance of the billion-dollar deal has continued, the proposed purchase itself has been repeatedly delayed, thereby further postponing the country’s dream of acquiring a capability it has lacked for more than six decades (See: “Thailand Eyes Submarine Fleet”).

As we move into 2017, however, indications are we could finally see some progress on this front.

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As I’ve detailed previously for The Diplomat, the initial plan to purchase the submarines floated in mid-2015 was put on hold after fierce domestic opposition and international scrutiny. A revised plan was then floated in 2016, and the submarine purchase was also included in Thailand’s 2017 defense budget approved last September (See: “The Truth About Thailand’s 2017 Defense Budget ‘Hike’“).

2017 has already seen more steps towards making this a reality. For instance, earlier this month, the RTN released a reference price document which detailed specifications regarding the purchase of the first of the three submarines, including anticipated costs. That document stipulated that the first submarine would cost 13.5 billion Thai baht ($376 million) and would include weapons systems, spare parts, technology transfer, and other items, with the total program reaching over $1.1 billion.

That document will then pave the way for an agreement between Thailand and China for the purchase of the first submarine. A final proposal was supposed to be submitted later this month, with all related administrative processes completed by the first quarter of 2017 and the contract inked later this year. If that occurs according to schedule, we could see the first submarine delivered to Thailand by the early 2020s.

Following some media reports, IHS Jane’s cited unnamed sources this month confirming that specifics were being laid out in a broader 11-year procurement plan is being finalized by the RTN. Funding for the first submarine would be sourced from the 2017 defense budget, and orders for the two other ones were expected before 2021 or 2022, with payments to China continuing until 2027.

These specifics are certainly a lot more than what we had even six months ago and they suggest that there continues to be political will to see this purchase through in spite of lingering concerns in some circles. But for those familiar with Thailand’s decades-long quest for submarines, that also still leaves plenty of time for even more hiccups further down the line.

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Jan 2017 12:17

Rakesh wrote:PM Modi pledges to make India the sole dominant power in the Indian Ocean
http://defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249988

Interesting boss ... India 's maritime buildup will match her heritage ... looking forward to the deployed nuclear subs with mirved missiles in the India China Sea

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 21 Jan 2017 12:22

Singha wrote:rather than pining for unobtainium like san antonio or mistral ships, these basic LPD of dutch design like rotterdam class 15000t x 170m armed with 6 large helicopter is just what we need as ASW squadron leaders. it has room for 600 marines and 32 MBTs, and a well deck for LST. it also has a hospital.

we can use some of the room it has for marines and tanks to house more of ASW mission suite, more fuel, more powerful engines, command flag staff and so on...while retaining a secondary marine support option.a couple of rapid fire 127mm guns in the front.

we should retire the trenton, build 4 of these type and empower our ASW task forces ... its definitely the cheapest LPD option out there. unmanned piranha ships can also use the well deck in future.

Instead can't we modify the hull of the VC11184 project for those ASW task force leaders?? Extend the hull by another 20 meter if you need it to be larger but I guess that wouldn't be required, pack it with the weapons and electronics suite that is present on the Shivalik class or the talwar class for self defence or target prosecution and use the extra space for helo ops.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jan 2017 12:35

No problem. They are very similar in size and shape but means addl design work for the air component and various warship level gear .... rotterdam license will be plug and play with kinks ironed out

Either way we need to move along

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 21 Jan 2017 17:12

SpokespersonNavy ‏@indiannavy 6h6 hours ago
Happy Anniversary INS Deepak, the Fleet Replenishment Tanker

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 21 Jan 2017 17:18

SpokespersonNavy ‏@indiannavy 5h5 hours ago
Happy Anniversary INS Saryu.Designed 4 Fleet support ops+coastal/offshore patrolling +ocean surveillance

nits · Post by **nits** » 21 Jan 2017 17:29

Gurus - Above ships like INS Saryu or Tankers have limited defence capabilities as there main purpose is support / surveillance; so does such ships sail along with other more powerful ships which can help them to defend if required ?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2017 03:40

Very nice pic. Rare to see ALH Dhruv embarked on sea.

titash wrote:Looks like the Dhruv is being embarked on smaller ships...does anyone recall if the folding blades issue was resolved? Or can they use only the helipad but not the hangar?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Jan 2017 15:54

The Indian Navy dry docks ships for Republic Day parades too with yellow & blue nylon ropes. And Delhi isnt the only parade...

From a previous year,

There are colourful floats too

More here http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... Gallery%29

Sadly not covered by major newspapers

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jan 2017 19:04

Pl read the report in full.China possesses the largest fleet of modern corvettes of any navy,will have 3 large carriers,plus 60-80 new subs and its take-over of Indo-China Sea islands and atolls has been kilened to the Russian takeover of the Crimea.

http://www.news18.com/news/world/china- ... 39175.html
China Expands Naval Fleet, Commissions 31st Stealth Warship
Press Trust Of India
First published: January 22, 2017,

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jan 2017 22:28

some old articles (from 2016)...but worth a look (if you have not already seen them)...

DRDO delivers four ‘Made in India’ SONAR systems to the Indian Navy which will provide ears in operational waters
http://iadnews.in/2016/11/drdo-delivers ... al-waters/

INS Kadamba: The Crown Jewel of the Indian Navy
http://iadnews.in/2016/11/ins-kadamba-t ... dian-navy/

Strengthening Andaman and Nicobar Command Key to India’s Mission in Checking the Adventurous Dragon – PLAN
http://iadnews.in/2016/09/strengthening ... agon-plan/

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Jan 2017 22:45

nits wrote:Gurus - Above ships like INS Saryu or Tankers have limited defence capabilities as there main purpose is support / surveillance; so does such ships sail along with other more powerful ships which can help them to defend if required ?

Tankers at war - where at sea or in the air - operate not on the frontline but a certain distance behind. Ships & aircraft go back to refuel and then come forward. Needless to say, tankers have their own escort.

OPVs are like police constables armed with 0.303 rifles. Their job is peacetime law and order maintenance, blasting a Somali pirate or Pakistani jehadi here & there for which a BrahMos would be economically unviable

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2017 04:27

Indigenization slows India's quest for new minehunters

The Indian Navy’s long-standing quest for a new-build, modern class of mine countermeasures vessels (MCMVs) continues to flounder amid government demands regarding technology transfer and indigenization.

A $5 billion project to build 12 MCMVs through state-owned Goa Shipyard Ltd is currently stalled as South Korea’s Kangnam Corporation balks at the Indian Ministry of Defence requirement for transfer of complete intellectual property rights of the ships.

With India’s naval sector lacking the technology to build a specialized MCMV, a foreign partner is a necessity.

..

The earlier 2008 tender had also been won by Kangnam, which beat out Italy’s Intermarine in the process. However, a later investigation into the tender by the Indian Ministry of Defence discovered irregularities involving middlemen in the negotiations, a no-no in Indian defense deals.

This resulted in the entire tender being scrapped in 2014, only to be renewed a year later under the “Buy and Make (India)” procurement category. This category allows local vendors to tie up with foreign suppliers regarding a select procurement item provided production is fully conducted with the domestic Indian company.

The longer-term Defence Ministry vision is for the 12-ship MCMV order to eventually double to 24 vessels. In return, the Indian MoD seeks full intellectual property rights as a means of growing a local capability to produce the niche-mission warship. With Kangnam unwilling to bend to the MoD demand, the negotiations are currently at a stalemate. ...

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Jan 2017 06:55

Rakesh wrote:some old articles (from 2016)...but worth a look (if you have not already seen them)...
............
INS Kadamba: The Crown Jewel of the Indian Navy
http://iadnews.in/2016/11/ins-kadamba-t ... dian-navy/
................

Since INS Kadamba is always topic of interest to me, found some articles related to it. Also I was interested to find out spot for proposed Naval Air station and found one too.

The Naval Air station is being built on 52 hectares at Alageri village near Ankola,in Karnataka aprox 15 km from Naval Base Karwar.

The Airport will be built by the Indian Navy at Alageri village near Ankola,in Karnataka aprox 15 km from Naval Base Karwar. The Airports Authority of India (AAI) will operate a civil enclave at the Naval Air base which is part of the Navy’s Rs 10,000 crore Phase 2 of Project Seabird. The area will develop faster view connectivity of Mangalor-Goa National Highway (NH 17). The highway authority working very fast and it may be completed by 4-5 years.

The Naval Air station is being built on 52 hectares primarily to cater to the Navy’s large, ship-based helicopter units and Dornier 228 aircraft that will be stationed at the base. The commissioning of a Naval Air Station at Karwar will decongest INS Hansa at the nearby Dabolim Airport which is a front line Air Station that is highly congested with both operational and training flying. The resulting restrictions on civil commercial air traffic has met with opposition from civilian quarters since Goa is a popular tourist destination.

Seabird project expansion to commence next year(2017)

The Karwar Naval Base will be the largest naval base in Asia by 2021 and a sum of Rs 19,600 crore has been kept aside for the second phase of its development, said Rear Admiral K J Kumar, VSM, Flag Officer Karnataka Naval Area.

Addressing the media on board of INS Aditya at Karwar base on Saturday, he said phase IIA work of the Seabird Project is expected to commence in Karwar next year and the integrated base will be completed by 2021 or 2022.

Under the second phase of development, eight more operational jetties will be developed. Karwar will be the station for more Naval ships and a lot of submarines will operate from here. The Naval air station will also be built at the base and it will be helpful to increase logistics transportation by helicopters and medium aircraft, he added.

Apart from this, INHS Patanjali Hospital will upgrade from 141-bed to 400-bed under the phase-IIA project, and also another Kendriya Vidyalaya is planned inside the base.

Governor Vajubhai Vala will come to Karwar Naval Base to participate in the celebration of ‘Navy Day 2016’ on Sunday (December 4). As part of the Navy Day, a week-long programmes like health camps, sports meet and swimming competition were organised and also public were allowed to visit the base.
He thanked Indian Coast Guard, State Marine Police, District Administration, District Police and other stakeholders for their support to the Navy.

-Ankit

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jan 2017 14:24

^ I hope karwar naval base will be sealed off to outsiders with walls and wires. No civvies movement except for kendriya vidlaya school.bus.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2017 18:00

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18300/ ... 96M8[quote]
India To Test Long Range Submarine Launched Nuclear Missile Next Week
Our Bureau10:56 AM, January 23,

India To Test Long Range Submarine Launched Nuclear Missile Next Week - A +
India’s Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will test launch its long range nuke-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) K-4 from an underwater platform at the end of this month.
The indigenously built underwater missile, having a strike range of around 3,500 km, will be test fired from a submerged pontoon, which is almost identical to a submarine on January 31, New Indian Express reported today.
The missile has been designed to be launched from a depth of 50 metres. However, this time the scientists are planning to fire it from the undersea platform nearly 20-30 meter deep in the Bay of Bengal.
“While the preparation for the test is going on in full swing, tracking equipment has been moved in ships to be placed at test location and point of impact,” a defense official was quoted as saying by the news daily.
K-4 missile weighs around 17 tonne and is capable of carrying a warhead of around two tonne. Further it has a length of 12 metres and diameter of 1.3 metres.
Basically a ballistic missile, the K-4 combines the aspects of both cruise and ballistic missile, which use multiple-stage rockets to exit the atmosphere and re-enter in a parabolic trajectory.
The country’s first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant, which has already been inducted in the Indian Navy, will be equipped with the K-series missiles.

Apart from the 700-km range K-15, renamed as B-05, which has been test fired several times and K-4, India has one more missile in the series.
SLBM K-5 having a striking capability of over 5,000 km is under development.
All the K-series missiles are faster, lighter and stealthier. The missiles are far more difficult to tackle as they skulk clandestinely undersea (?

) and manoeuvrable thus minimising the chance to be shot down by the enemy.
Apart from the K-series missiles, India has the submarine version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal to boost its second-strike capabilities. The DRDO is also developing the air version of K-series missiles which can be fitted with fighter aircraft.
The DRDO is expecting a successful trial of the missile as it would strengthen the country’s position in the exclusive club of six nations including Russia, USA, France, Britain and China which have the capability of firing missiles from air, land and undersea..[/quote]

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jan 2017 21:35

IIT students may give the Indian Navy its next big thing: an intelligent unmanned submarine
https://qz.com/889388/iit-students-may- ... submarine/

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Jan 2017 18:50

It’s Official: Indian Navy Wants 57 Carrier-borne Fighters

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 25 Jan 2017 21:45

so F-16 factory sets up in India and we order F-35 (b or c?).

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Jan 2017 21:48

Or more likely, Rafale-M.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 25 Jan 2017 22:47

Rafale please if Vishal is CATOBAR.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 25 Jan 2017 22:49

Can someone document the issues with the Mig-29K. Not issues in its basic capabilities or fit thereof, but issues with the performance of the aircraft as it is designed or expected to work. Any references and validation will be helpful. Thanks in Advance.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2017 22:59

It is either Rafale M or F-18E/F. My bets are on Rakhi Sawant over Katrina.

And I agree with Orville Prins - LM's VP of Biz Development (India) - on the Sea Gripen.

It is a paper plane. I have been calling it Paper NG for the longest time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2017 23:05

ShauryaT wrote:Can someone document the issues with the Mig-29K. Not issues in its basic capabilities or fit thereof, but issues with the performance of the aircraft as it is designed or expected to work. Any references and validation will be helpful. Thanks in Advance.

Auditor's Report Card Fails Navy's New Flagship Fighter, MiG-29K
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/auditors ... rs-1436614

In its latest report, the auditor has said since the induction of the 12 aircraft in 2010, as many as 40 engines fitted on them had to be withdrawn because of "design related defects or deficiencies".

Also, the reliability of their electronic flight control system proved to be as low as "3.5 per cent to 7.5 per cent" between July 2012 and June 2014.

What is perhaps even more worrisome is that the "serviceability" of MiG 29K - which indicates how often an aircraft is available for operations and is not undergoing repairs -- varies between 16 per cent and 39 per cent. This means out of a fleet of 10 fighters, only one to 3 jets will be normally available for operations. The rest of the fleet would be gone for repairs.