Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2016 08:15

Karthik S wrote: Shiv ji, we can't and need not use backfires for patrolling, but they have their purpose as missile carriers, we may not use them for carpet bombing hostile country's territory, but they can be utilized in entirely ASh role.

This is OT. Carpet bombing is a useless exercise and has failed to win any wars. That aside - what are we going to carpet bomb with Tu-22s? Please name a few targets

Karthik S wrote: But let's consider in a hostile scenario, through credible intelligence reports or radars or dedicated satellites we pick up a CBG and some is approaching our shores through Malacca straits. How would you go about tackling this threat. We can argue that a battery of BrahMos and/or Nirbhay ( in future) located in AnC Islands can take care of it, but that will be the only and last line of defense to stop the hostile force. Indeed, a pack of attack submarines will also be a strong defense in these scenarios. But, talking about fighter jets vs dedicated bombers in such cases, would we really want to utilize MKIs to neutralize this threat? The MKIs that otherwise could have been used for their main AD role over main land? And how many MKIs would be required to sanitize 10 ships including the fighter wing of the CBG. This is just a simple scenario about the threat from one direction, we got 2 more directions to contemplate about.

Let me reduce the complexity of this by saying that we have no submarines to hit an attacking fleet and it must be hit by aircraft only or other defences

Which means do we have?

If the fleet comes as close as 300 km to the shore then we can hit them directly with Brahmos from land.

At a range of about 500-1000 km from our shores we can use Jaguars

At a range of 1000-1500 km away we can use Sukhois

At a range of 1500 plus km we can use Tu142 or P-8

Add refuelling in some cases - to increase the range.

Of course we can make the following excuses for each of these

We will need to reserve our Brahmos for land war
We need to reserve our Jaguars for land war
We will need our Sukhois elsewhere
P-8 and Tu-142 are not adequately armed
We cannot sink an aircraft carrier
Planes will get shot down

Once we start having such excuses we should not actually fight war and stick to ahimsa

What is the exact role envisaged for the supersonic bomber? We could certainly do with more refuelers though

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Dec 2016 10:57

shiv wrote:Patrol aircraft are designed to fly and loiter. Supersonic bombers are quick in and out. Low slow flight allows visual observation AND allows the observed fleet to see and recognize who is watching them - which is en essential part of showing the force. You can't fly past at 500 feet at 800 kmph and expect the people on a ship to know who flashed past. Even the nationality of the ship/s may not be easy to recognize by simply flashing past in a race car so the plane may not know what ships it has just flashed past

Saar, the Tu-22MR is exactly a patrol aircraft by your definition. In fact the Soviets considered it the "obvious" choice (Gordon, 1998) to replace their recon and maritime patrol subsonic Badgers - the Tu-16. The variable geometry wings allows for this slow speed handling. The versatility of the bird was a nice thing to have and it was used in a variety of roles - missile carrier for supersonic slash and dash type attack, maritime recon and patrol carrying a variety of optical, infrared and electronic systems plus an ELINT role.

So once an aircraft spots a hostile naval force it must attack right away (if hostilities are on) or else it will lose the plot.

Again this is something that the backfire can do better than any other. You equip it as a maritime patrol aircraft (it equals or betters the current IL-38 used by the IN in this capacity), and task it to carry 2 Brahmos externally (instead of the piddly sea eagle), + a number of Kh-15s (300km Ashm) internally as well. The moment hostiles are spotted, it can go into attack mode instantly.

The ocean is huge and the naval force will simply disappear without trace. Even ships close to the coast well within the range of every damn aircraft we have have the nasty habit of vanishing and here we are talking of keeping tabs on naval forces 2000-3000 km away. How do you keep track? You need to recognize them first and then track them.As I see it the only possibility is to have 2-3 dedicated Indian ocean satellites that sweep the ocean every 4 hours or so. Still - the ships can vanish at night or in cloudy weather. So this business of using dedicated supersonic bombers for routine patrol sounds like a futile dingdong waving exercise to me.

Yes, the oceans are huge, and this is an issue for sure. Apart from satelite capability a large number of MPAAs along with monitoring of sealanes and chokepoints is essential. The Japanese employ around a 100 P3Cs! and we are working towards a piddly 24. The Tu-22s would definitely boost this capability.

What the IN and defence forces need in a hurry is an increase in the budget.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Dec 2016 11:05

If they can incorporate Brahmos on all our MPA ,IL-38 ,Tu-142M and P-8I it would have a significant impact in both Anti-Shipping and LACM role , With range of extended range brahmos of ~ 600 km , that would have significant deterrent on stand off capability and the protection bubble offered by such system and consquently inverse impact on AD system of hostile forces

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Dec 2016 11:49

^ yes it would certainly help. I'm surprised they haven't even got the bears equipped with brahmis.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Dec 2016 12:45

Cain Marko wrote:^ yes it would certainly help. I'm surprised they haven't even got the bears equipped with brahmis.

^^ Maybe because EOL of Bears in IN service is fast approaching and felt not worth the effort to re-kit and spend $$?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Dec 2016 14:24

shiv wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:If IN really wants some strategic teeth in double quick time, there is hardly a better and faster option than the Tu-22M3 adequately MKIized. The newer uprgraded variants (M3M?) seem like very useful machines - newer radar (novella from the IL 38 Sea Dragon Suite) and weapons, easier maintenance, iirc. They have immense range and payload (no MKI comes close) and could easily carry 3 X Brahmos. More investments into MPAs along with a sqd of these will be of great deterrent value for PLAN surface assets. .
Unfortunately the best analogy is a stud farm. You get the best stud and mate him with the best mare and hope for the best. You will get something good if it all works out

It's not about how capable the aircraft is - it is about maintenance, uptime and spares.

Tu-142M retirement process started this year for these very reasons - mission availability, maintenance effort and maintenance cost.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Dec 2016 15:01

They should integrate Brahmos-ER with P-8I and Il-38 atleast both will be serving for a long time more so for P-8I , Potentially even Nirbhai when it is available.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Dec 2016 15:02

Azerbaijani Armed Forces are successfully tested a long-range air defense missile system Barak 8

Azerbaijani Armed Forces are successfully tested a long-range air defense missile system Barak 8 Israeli development.

The complex is able to repel any air attack on a maximum range of 70 km (according to some sources, up to 90 km). "Barak-8" was developed by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), in partnership with Elta Systems, Rafael and other companies. Azerbaijan ordered a terrestrial version of SAM - 12 PU trailer chassis MAZ (6x6) and 75 rockets.

link

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Dec 2016 15:02

Note the speed of Barak-8 , it is easily doing close to Mach 5

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 26 Dec 2016 15:06

I would have thought they would have ordered another 8 p8-I as replacement for the tu-142, but we ordered only 4 more. Perhaps the coast guard order of 6 will help with this. Here is a news report that says that it will be the C295 planes.

http://www.businesstoday.in/current/eco ... 43034.html

Here is a nice website that links cost of all MPA ever produced. The costs don't seem to have date next to them, nor do they seem to be inflation adjusted. http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/-m ... craft.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2016 19:49

Cain Marko wrote: Saar, the Tu-22MR is exactly a patrol aircraft by your definition. In fact the Soviets considered it the "obvious" choice (Gordon, 1998) to replace their recon and maritime patrol subsonic Badgers - the Tu-16.

Please provide me with a link. Many refs including one you posted earlier lead to the earlier Tu 22 (Blinder) which was a failed bomber/MR aircraft and I need to see who this Gordon guy is and what he said. The later Tu 22M was designated "Backfire" and not many refs about its being applied as a dedicated patrol aircraft. Since production of the Tu 22 ended in 1993 - this "Gordon 1998" thing is something I would like to read for myself

The Tu 160 - also swing wing, has been involved in patrols as recently as 2016 IIRC

Once again I suspect that the Tu-22 (Blinder), Tu 22 (Backfire) confusion exists in your post, but I am willing to be corrected.

I found the Gordon ref. I cannot get the book but there is one review on Amazon which again speaks of the older Blinder as the Recon aicraft
https://www.amazon.com/Tupelov-Tu-22-Bl ... 1857800656

For the aviation enthusiast the end of the Cold War was a time of mixed emotions, OK, the west had won, less threat of nuclear war, but so many neat projects died, planes scrapped etc. On the other hand we were suddenly able to find a lot more about those exotic shapes from behind the curtain.
This publication gives a typically Aerofax detail on two intriguing shapes, Samolet 105 Tu-22 Blinder (NATO reporting name was originally Beauty and most apt too, but was felt to be over complementary). Similar in timescale to Convair's amazing B-58 Hustler, the Tu-22 was always more of a tactical than a strategic system. The first half details the Tu-22's evolution from supersonic level bomber to missile launcher to recon / ecm platform. Fascinating aircraft, and the front view showes why the pilots nicknamed it the "Awl"
The second section traces how the swing wing Tu-22M arose as a 2nd generation Tu-22, and why the changes were made.
Many excellent detail shots for modellers, and the ESCI kits will be reissued sometime. This is all the reference you will need on these types (to date at least. Definative.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Dec 2016 20:10

https://www.amazon.com/Tupolev-Tu-95-Tu ... 185780046X

This is the book available via Scribd. I'll see if I can copy paste the relevant sections.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Dec 2016 20:55

Cain Marko wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Tupolev-Tu-95-Tu ... 185780046X

This is the book available via Scribd. I'll see if I can copy paste the relevant sections.

In the meanwhile here is a pic of the backfire on patrol over what I think is the Pacific with a Japanese f-15 escort

http://www2.rocketbbs.com/301/files/pomkin@1273.jpg

Okay, I'm unable to copy paste the scribd book section via my phone. I'll just type a relevant excerpt from pg.60 titled tu-23m3r reconnaissance aircraft:

The vvs and av-mf badly needed a modern recon aircraft to replace the aging tu22r and tu22rdm to say nothing of the hopelessly outdated tu16-r badger. The tu-22m3 was the obvious choice for a new elint aircraft. In the mid 1980s the tupolev okb came up with the tu-m3r advanced recon aircraft with the latest radar and thermal imaging technology with plenty of room for future upgrades.

It seems though that the break up of the FSU meant that not many birds were converted for this role, which would explain the sparse information available regarding it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2016 21:31

Cain Marko wrote:
The vvs and av-mf badly needed a modern recon aircraft to replace the aging tu22r and tu22rdm to say nothing of the hopelessly outdated tu16-r badger. The tu-22m3 was the obvious choice for a new elint aircraft. In the mid 1980s the tupolev okb came up with the tu-m3r advanced recon aircraft with the latest radar and thermal imaging technology with plenty of room for future upgrades.
It seems though that the break up of the FSU meant that not many birds were converted for this role, which would explain the sparse information available regarding it.

Elint and recce has a completely different flight profile from maritime patrol. A large number of attack aircraft serve as "strike/recce" aircraft. Almost every Vayusena show in Tilpat or Pokhran featured a Jaguar or MiG 27 or some such plane doing a high speed fly-by followed by the delivery to the President an hour later a photo of him/her sitting in the audience taken during the high speed fly-by. The logic of having a strike aircraft for recce is as pre and post attack assessment of targets and damage

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Dec 2016 00:07

Recce does not always have to be some high speed aircraft zooming low and taking pictures and assessing battle damage. Nor does elint. There are a number of snooping elint aircraft that can't go supersonic. Nor do you need radar to take pictures.

My point is that the backfire we are looking at has a lot of versatility and can clearly been kitted out for patrol, strike recon, elint roles. Perhaps not with the endurance of a tu95/142, but it is hardly a purely low dash and smash type thing. There are enough pictures of this bird in patrol over the Pacific and north Atlantic.

The m3 versions are actually being equipped with the same system as one of the INs main maritime patrol assets...The novella sea dragon suite, which the il38 had been upgraded to.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Dec 2016 02:34

Looks like construction Paradip and Porbandar hasn't started yet whereas construction of Mormugao and Visakhapatnam started in very short intervals. Are we looking at next generation destroyers right now or is it a delay because of other reasons.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 27 Dec 2016 05:44

Shiv wrote ^^^"It's not about how capable the aircraft is - it is about maintenance, uptime and spares." Yeah! who woudda thunk? 314 SU 30 MKIs = ~160 available a/c.

+1

I continue to be amazed at how we on BR look to the past for solutions to our future problems. Used Qatari M2Ks (my favorite--they always come up as gap fillers and understudies), TU-22-M3s are next—on a mission to destroy non-existent CBGs (parts are available on EBay). A little further along are the wet dreams of a joint venture to restart production of TU-160 Blackjacks (updated with AESA radar of course) to eliminate targets yet unknown, flying across Thailand to ??

What IN needs are more subs: Scorpenes, Arihant-based SSNs and SSGNs. The last is the most important IMHO. Stealthy, creep up and deliver 24-48 Nirbhays/Brahmos at a distance outside the 700 nm protective envelope of future PLAN CBGs.

It's also what we know how to make and manage.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Dec 2016 07:39

What IN needs are more subs: Scorpenes, Arihant-based SSNs and SSGNs.

Sure, and these cost how much? And how are scorpenes supposed to patrol the IOR? The entire conversation started with the question - how do we increase India's strategic reach in the IOR?

Sure SSNs and SSGNs are a great idea. But last I checked, we don't have any nor are they available in quick time or at cheap prices.. What BR posters are doing under these rather straitened circumstances is exploring options.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Dec 2016 07:44

Cosmo_R wrote:Shiv wrote ^^^"It's not about how capable the aircraft is - it is about maintenance, uptime and spares." Yeah! who woudda thunk? 314 SU 30 MKIs = ~160 available a/c.

+1

I continue to be amazed at how we on BR look to the past for solutions to our future problems. Used Qatari M2Ks (my favorite--they always come up as gap fillers and understudies), TU-22-M3s are next—on a mission to destroy non-existent CBGs (parts are available on EBay). A little further along are the wet dreams of a joint venture to restart production of TU-160 Blackjacks (updated with AESA radar of course) to eliminate targets yet unknown, flying across Thailand to ??

What IN needs are more subs: Scorpenes, Arihant-based SSNs and SSGNs. The last is the most important IMHO. Stealthy, creep up and deliver 24-48 Nirbhays/Brahmos at a distance outside the 700 nm protective envelope of future PLAN CBGs.

It's also what we know how to make and manage.

You kind of answered yourself. Submarines are a must nobody here suggested to go for backfires instead of submarines. Soviets had hundreds of submarines, yet they maintained many strategic bombers carrying cruise missiles. All we are talking about here is fielding a dozen backfires for anti ship missions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2016 07:54

Cain Marko wrote:Recce does not always have to be some high speed aircraft zooming low and taking pictures and assessing battle damage. Nor does elint. There are a number of snooping elint aircraft that can't go supersonic. Nor do you need radar to take pictures.

Absolutely true - but the aircraft that do go supersonic and take pictures are not the ones that are suitable for loitering around millions of sq km of oceans. Just because the word "reconnaissance" is common in Maritime reconnaissance and strike/reconnaissance does not mean that same aircraft can be interchangeably used for both purposes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2016 08:46

Cosmo_R wrote:
What IN needs are more subs: Scorpenes, Arihant-based SSNs and SSGNs. The last is the most important IMHO. Stealthy, creep up and deliver 24-48 Nirbhays/Brahmos at a distance outside the 700 nm protective envelope of future PLAN CBGs.

.

Don't ignore stealthy creep up and deliver a couple of torpedoes to sink queen bee. That was how the Belgrano was sunk. Of course Argentinian Exocets worked too against British ships

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 Dec 2016 10:31

In fact the Backfire may be suitable for dash to a reconnaissance target and then a leisurely patrol. Although the swing wing was a poor choice for fighter aircraft, it may have been appropriate for the Backfire.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Dec 2016 11:10

Air power at sea is pre-eminent.WW2 and post war conflicts.However,the lethality of LRCMs from stealth subs,Gorshkov's answer to the CBGs remains valid. With the Liaoning on its first patrol outside home waters and the next carrier,001 on course for launch,Chinese CBGs will inevitably be a regular feature in the IOR.The IN must have the capability to destroy the PLAN battle groups before they ingress into our "pond".Subs (essential) will complement the effort,but supersonic strat. bombers in a maritime role too ,like the Backfires ,armed with LR supersonic and (future) hypersonic missiles,cannot be shot down by enemy subs!,whereas surface combatants and subs can be detected and attacked. Remember also that subs take a long time to transit to their operational zone and to have a permanent offensive patrol requires a large sub inventory,esp. N-subs,which can stay on patrol for 90+ days.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 27 Dec 2016 14:07

Meanwhile some 36K up in the sky, lonely Rukmini (GSAT-7) goes about her job silently and wonders when she will have some sisters for company ...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 06:01

Navy begins work to set INS Betwa upright
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/N ... 951987.ece

“Work is going on 24x7 on war footing. It will take time,” sources added.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 06:18

Suspected submarine data thief eludes international manhunt
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 890e00b97f

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Dec 2016 06:19

Rakesh wrote:Navy begins work to set INS Betwa upright
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/N ... 951987.ece

“Work is going on 24x7 on war footing. It will take time,” sources added.

By fluke, I had imagined that this would be the method employed.

Indranil wrote: Also, I don't believe that the draining the dock will increase the stress on the ship. The buoyancy provided by the water in this condition is very limited. My theory is that they will insert deflated airbags in the gap between the ship and the dock floor generated by the dock blocks. They will drain the dock and then come up with a way to set the ship upright.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 Dec 2016 06:28

Karthik S wrote:

You kind of answered yourself. Submarines are a must nobody here suggested to go for backfires instead of submarines. Soviets had hundreds of submarines, yet they maintained many strategic bombers carrying cruise missiles. All we are talking about here is fielding a dozen backfires for anti ship missions.

It's always one or the other: money. Guns or butter, Backfires or subs. We don't have resources to get a little bit of everything.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 29 Dec 2016 06:48

^^ I doubt that "we don't have money" is how our defense forces, planners, mod, mof, etc. think.

If Navy justifies it, it would be obtained. Different matter whether we have specific missions that are in our national interest that justifies the investment/acquisition.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Dec 2016 07:38

a gentle reminder of maintenance and uptime headaches

Saurabh Joshi
‏@SaurabhJoshi
Raha on tanker tender: 'IL-78 availability not so good. Some anomalies in acquisition of tankers. Fresh one to be floated very soon

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 29 Dec 2016 08:43

<POOF>

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Dec 2016 10:55

Saurabh Joshi
‏@SaurabhJoshi
Raha on tanker tender: 'IL-78 availability not so good. Some anomalies in acquisition of tankers. Fresh one to be floated very soon

Of course, it is the fault of the dumb Indians who dont know how to use it.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 30 Dec 2016 11:55

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago
GRSE says it will deliver the first Project 17A stealth frigate built by it in 2022-23.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Dec 2016 12:05

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Dec 2016 16:50

Chief of the Naval Staff Interview

"The Indian Navy's Perspective Planning is Designed to Deliver Capabilities Commensurate with Our Maritime Interests"

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jan 2017 08:44

Indian Naval Academy to have new Principal
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/k ... 971288.ece

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jan 2017 08:45

Indian Navy to get 100 warships next year
http://pragativadi.com/indian-navy-get- ... next-year/

Indian Navy gears up to induct more submarines, warships in 2017
http://www.asianage.com/metros/mumbai/0 ... -2017.html

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 02 Jan 2017 11:38

Rakesh wrote:Indian Navy to get 100 warships next year
http://pragativadi.com/indian-navy-get- ... next-year/

This news item is of GRSE delivering its 100th vessel to the Indian Navy in 2017. Unfortunately, the reporter wasn't smart enough to pick that up, unnecessarily giving us SDREs palpitations that Navy is getting 100 ships this year.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jan 2017 12:10

Do these include tiny patrol craft? IL-78s are being replaced with the new IL-476 platforms.Two are being acquired for the extra Phalcons which have just been confirmed. The existing IL-78s were based upon the legacy IL-76 platform,whereas the new ones are being completely built in Russia. Costwise they would be cheaper than any western bird,plus with similar aircraft being acquired for the AWACS role,would be easier to maintain and operate rather than acquiring yet another type.

Where are the new subs going to come from this year? Expect just another Scorpene that's all,unless we're going in for leasing more subs from Russia.Any deal signed o this year will see (from the west) subs appearing post 2020.

Since the KA_226 has been chosen for the IA,200+ to be built in India,the new naval variant could be another winner for the IN's light helo requirement.It would simplify acquisition,been built in India,and training and logistic support v.easy.

https://www.rt.com/news/372048-ka-226tm ... -produced/

1st naval Ka-226 modular light helicopter produced in Russia
Published time: 28 Dec, 2016
1st naval Ka-226 modular light helicopter produced in Russia

The first Kamov Ka-226 helicopter designed for deployment at ships has been produced this year in Russia. The version with foldable rotors is meant for the Russian border guards and potentially the navy.
The Ka-226 is a light, highly-maneuverable multipurpose helicopter featuring the signature twin rotor of the Kamov rotorcraft, which eliminates the need for a tail rotor. Derived from the design of the Ka-26, the helicopter has interchangeable pods for passenger transportation, medical evacuation, air patrol and other types of mission.

The ‘TM’ version is the latest for the helicopter. Like the ‘T’ model, the Ka-226TM has a French power plant more powerful than the one used in the basic design, but adds the foldable rotors necessary for naval aviation.

The Federal Security Service (FSB), which among other things is responsible for protecting Russia’s borders, planned to buy at least 10 Ka-226TM for their coast guard ships. There is also a strong export potential for the rotorcraft, says its producer, which rolled out the first helicopter of this model in 2016.

“This year our plant produced its first naval Ka-226T light helicopter,” said Aleksandr Mikheev, the head of Russian Helicopters holding, while touring the Kumertau plant in Bashkortostan, where the advanced helicopters are built.

“We expect high demand for it for it from our Russian and foreign customers interested in using it for coast guard and other law enforcement missions. We estimate that this helicopter has large export potential,” he added as cited by the company’s website.

Ka-226s are used in Russia by both civilian operators and the military. India also placed a substantial order for its armed forces.

The first helicopter of the basic design made its maiden flight in 1997, while later variants came in the 2010s.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Jan 2017 15:32

Ka-226 is ideal for IN, given the long pedigree and history of Kamov helicopters in naval service.

Picture of the beast: