Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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chetak
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 16 Dec 2017 22:39

Rakesh wrote:Chetak: There are people - having seen the brutal effectiveness of American CBGs - think it can be so easily replicated by India. Just one data point to put into question this entire discussion.

You know how much the newest American carrier - the USS Gerald Ford - costs? Almost $13 Billion....for ONE vessel! And R&D cost another almost $5 Billion. We are not even talking about the battle group that protects the vessel, which runs to yet even more billions. Congress is whining about Rafale deal, imagine this.

No wonder the MoD balked at the Navy's idea for a nuclear powered aircraft carrier, earlier this year. And I am glad they scaled it down to a conventional carrier. The cost of a CBG is not cheap. Better off investing that money in various platforms, including cheaper carriers.


I am aware that the sheer body of expertise that the USN has built and accumulated over the decades, including design, construction, fleet integration, operations of both the carrier battle group itself and its air arm, the global reach of their logistics, their training facilities as well as the CBGs very effective exploitation in variously troubled scenarios and last but not the least, its hugely capable and stupendous MIC that sustains such complex platforms and keeps on relentlessly pumping out newer and more advanced platforms like the Gerald Ford can never ever be duplicated by India. I have absolutely no illusions in this regard.

But one day, I am certain that the IN will also go nuclear for some of its surface ships, smaller though they be, in comparison to the USN.

The congis and the commies want a jantha class IN complete with reservations and all capital ships replaced with refurbished wooden fishing trawlers. They well understand that the invaders who came here were all emboldened by our weak militaries and though we were prosperous because of trade, we were never able to protect our national, commercial and social interests without the strong military to back us. Times are changing now.

The hans would have long ago had us for breakfast if not for our launch capabilities. Even now they are very unsure of their footing with this new govt.

They had successfully caged and domesticated the congis for decades now, traitorously aided by the commies who are ideologically and financially aligned with them. That's one of the reasons why the Indian commies habitually punched much above their weight category.

Since the arrival of Modi on the scene, the commies are fearfully lying very very low, trying to protect their coveted RS seats which they got with the help of other political parties.

For the hans, aligning closely with the commie parties in various countries and subverting them has paid rich dividends for such meagre investment.

So, when any party in India talks of cutting defence expenditure, Its that hans who are pushing the agenda in the background.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 16 Dec 2017 23:23

Good to know they quantified the damage to radiated noise frequencies, the French have the Spectra, I believe its active cancellation technique in the RF domain for the incident waveforms, wonder if they have such a thing in the acoustic domain for radiated noise? Or this is inspite of applying such techniques? if the French can do something about it maybe more Scorpenes can be built?

and If MDL can put together the Scorpenes, albeit with a five year delay, HAL cannot do it for the Rafales? Which runs counter to the French argument that they cannot guarantee the build quality.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 00:04

Navy to double aircraft fleet to 500 in next decade
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-4985862/

The aviation arm of the Indian Navy will double its aircraft fleet in the coming decade to nearly 500, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba said in Hyderabad on Saturday. “We have a naval air wing, which has 238 aircraft at the moment. It has a combination of fighters, helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft, both- long range and short range. And we have a plan in place…in a decade’s time this Naval air wing will grow to close to 500 aircraft of different types,” Lanba said at a press conference.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby KrishnaK » 17 Dec 2017 01:28

chetak wrote:
KrishnaK wrote: Have analysts look at images of vast swathes to figure out which are targets of interest ? The Indian ocean is 27.24 million mi² (google) let's assume only 100k sq miles. After something looks interesting then look at higher resolution ? Or assume the actual target has been identified and passed on to the targeting vessel - it's 500 miles away. A subsonic cruise missile takes an hour to get there.

Real time radar pickup (I guess that means MPA) picks up a target of interest, transmits info, gets shot down. By the time reinforcements are scrambled, it'll could be hours. I'm totally ignorant and this is all guess work on my part - but I don't see any evidence at all this tracking business is easily done.


Please read up and come back. Guesswork doesn't make up for discussions.
Ran out of handwaving room huh ? I have posted CIA analysis on Soviet ability to counter their CBGs. Guesswork can very well make for discussions, so long as it's treated as such and can be countered with facts. The claims of attacking CBGs with missiles or from INS India while possible, is not easily done. In open ocean it's near impossible. Satellites, Kilos with Kalibirs, missile cruisers chock full of anit-ship missiles are not going to change that.

P.S. Rakesh - ack. Using two embedded posts this time just so there's history enough to follow it. Hope that's ok.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2017 01:54

Rakesh wrote:Vikramaditya Carrier Battle Group (please refer to fourth picture from right) -->
http://www.harpia-publishing.com/galler ... index.html

Very cool pic although I think a Shivalik is more likely to run point.

Interestingly, I'm wondering if there would be more than one bubble provided by the kamovs since there will be quitee a few carried by the cbg. Just the vikad could carry about 8-10 of these along with 24 fulcrums.

I wish they had managed to install IFR capability on the kamovs. Good little capability but needs more endurance. Imagine their versatile uses and the size of the protection bubble if four are used simultaneously.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2017 02:01

Rakesh wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Saw reports that the Scorpene leak is really damaging. Seems like every phoren maal has its own baggage attached. I am all for addition of many Kilo class, we can build them in numbers too in India.

From a veteran Indian Navy submariner - Vice Admiral A K Singh (Retd);

Scorpene Leak: Safety of Indian Crew Depends on Radiated Noise Frequencies Remaining Secret
https://thewire.in/61297/frances-dcns-b ... data-leak/

In initial comments, Vice-Admiral A.K. Singh (retired), a former submariner, told The Wire on Wednesday that the documents were “no doubt being closely studied in Islamabad and Beijing … I am going through them slowly but I reckon this has saved the Chinese and Pakistanis 20-30 years of espionage.” Singh later modified his assessment and said the damage may not be as great as he had initially feared “as long as the frequency of the submarine’s radiated noise” – which The Australian redacted – remains a secret. If the frequency were to leak, that would be disastrous for the crew as that would enable an enemy to use different sonar buoys to locate and identify the submarine, which otherwise has a noise level that is below the noise of the sea, he said.

Most of the data leaked is all design related, especially pertaining to sensors and combat management, and India will not be in a position to change those parameters in response to the leak without embarking on design changes that will cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, said Singh. But “at least 90% of the information on the Scorpene’s combat suite, weapons data etc is already more or less available to armed forces around the world,” he said. “What we don’t want to compromise at any cost is the frequencies of the radiated noise. Here, a major mitigating factor is that the frequencies have been blanked out,” he added.


Great. So the safety and the ability of Indian boats and it's Crew is entirely dependent on the goodness of Australian hearts. Looks like the proverbial nuts are available for oz to squeeze whenever it wishes to.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Ankit Desai » 17 Dec 2017 05:43

Scorpene submarines lack torpedoes, Navy initiates secret procurement

The defence ministry has issued a secret Request for Information (RFI) to global torpedo firms, for supplying over 100 heavyweight torpedoes for the Indian Navy’s Scorpene submarines, the first of which — INS Kalvari — was commissioned on Thursday.

Prospective vendors are unwilling to speak, since they have signed a non-disclosure agreement. However, three sources in the defence ministry and industry have verified this development.

While the torpedo RFI was issued in August, and replies received in November from at least three global “original equipment manufacturers” (OEMs), a long wait lies ahead before the new torpedoes become available to arm the Kalvari and five more submarines that will follow it into service. The defence ministry’s Defence Procurement Procedure of 2016 allows 114 weeks (two years and three months) for concluding a contract — in practice, an over-ambitious target. After the contract, manufacturing and delivery would take another 2-3 years.

Until then, the navy’s six Kalvari-class boats (as the navy refers to submarines) will share 64 obsolescent SUT torpedoes with and four HDW Shishumar-class vessels. This is woefully inadequate if the submarine fleet has to fight a war.

Further, there are question marks over the efficacy of the SUT torpedo, even though German OEM, Atlas Elektronik, was contracted in July 2013 to upgrade 64 SUT torpedoes and extend their service life by 15 years.

Business Standard learns the navy’s new torpedo RFI went out to 5-6 torpedo OEMs but will boil down to a contest between French OEM Naval Group, which is offering its F-21 torpedo, and German firm Atlas Elektronik with its Seahake Mod 4. It is understood that Russian and Japanese OEMs, and Swedish company Saab were also sent RFIs. However, the Japanese did not respond; the Russian torpedo does not meet the Indian Navy’s specifications; nor does Saab’s, which is driven by a combustion engine while the navy wants an electrically-driven torpedo.

The heavyweight torpedo is a submarine’s weapon of choice for sinking warships and submarines, which it typically engages from 50-100 kilometres away. Fired from a torpedo tube, it is driven through the water by a motor powered by electric batteries. It is guided towards the target by signals conveyed through a wire that unspools behind it. Approaching the target, the torpedo switches to “active guidance” using the on-board sonar. When it slams into a target, an explosive charge detonates, creating an underwater hole that often causes catastrophic flooding, sinking the target vessel.

Besides torpedoes, submarines also carry anti-ship missiles (ASMs) such as the Kalvari’s SM39 Exocet missile. ASMs are fired through the same tubes as torpedoes, and they emerge from the water and fly, skimming the sea, towards their target. But ASMs can be intercepted, and they are less lethal since they strike above the waterline.

The navy’s torpedo deficit has arisen due to the blacklisting of Italian conglomerate Finmeccanica, after allegations emerged in 2012 of bribery in the sale of twelve AW-101 helicopters to India by a Finmeccanica subsidiary, AgustaWestland. The defence ministry, on August 26, 2014, banned all new contracts with Finmeccanica group companies, including WASS, which had been chosen to supply 98 Black Shark torpedoes to India for the Scorpene fleet.

Global torpedo manufacturers believe India could be their largest customer. Although the current procurement is for only 100-plus torpedoes, industry experts say the navy actually requires 400-600 torpedoes. These are needed to arm six Scorpenes currently being rolled out, six Project 75-I submarines that are on the anvil, and a planned fleet of up to ten nuclear submarines.

With the cost of a heavyweight torpedo hovering around $2-3 million apiece, that represents a business opportunity of $800 million to $1.8 billion — a mouth-watering prospect for torpedo makers.

If the cost of the torpedoes the navy is currently buying tops Rs 2,000 crore ($311 million), the OEM will incur a 30 per cent offset liability. This would involve ploughing back 30 per cent of the contract value into Indian defence production. Since each torpedo costs an estimated $2-3 million, a 100-plus-torpedo order would be on the offset threshold.

Industry sources say buying torpedoes piecemeal — initially for the Kalvari-class, then for Project 75-I, and separately for the nuclear boats — would disadvantage India. Instead, a single order that combines India’s torpedo requirements would result in cheaper prices through economies of scale; and also create a compelling industrial logic for transferring torpedo production to India.


-Ankit

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2017 06:42

Well tell that to MoD and Navy.

What happened to DRDO developed torpedoes going in for a long time?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 07:14

Cain Marko wrote:Great. So the safety and the ability of Indian boats and it's Crew is entirely dependent on the goodness of Australian hearts. Looks like the proverbial nuts are available for oz to squeeze whenever it wishes to.

please see below. I will need more confirmation (homework for me) than kit's observation, but nevertheless a point to note.

kit wrote:You would know the radiated noise "fingerprint" of a submarine only after its built and goes under !!! ..otherwise its guess work looking at blue prints .. precisely for that reason navies devote immense resources on sub hunters. I suspect the finger prints would vary after each refit / upgrade.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 07:18

ramana wrote:Well tell that to MoD and Navy.

What happened to DRDO developed torpedoes going in for a long time?

If you are referring to Varunastra, reports from 2016 advised that a submarine version is to be tested soon. But you know how things work in India :) Please see below...

Indian Navy inducts indigenous heavyweight torpedo 'Varunastra'
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 03629.html

The project Director added that the torpedo, which has already been test-fired from ships, will soon be fired from a submarine. "We will soon be test-firing the torpedo from a submarine. Some minor modifications will be needed for that," he said.

Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba stressed on the need to tighten the time frame for completing projects. "We need to move towards more reasonable time-frames for completing projects," Admiral Lanba said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby uddu » 17 Dec 2017 08:10

^^^Rakeshji, so you are saying is that torpedo is inducted? After seeing how things move in India under the leadership of Nitin Gadkari from 2 km to 30km per day of national highways, I will consider it that way. Also this could be a fine example of Shivji's observation about Indian's way of thinking about ourself.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 09:12

Udduji, see what Admiral Lanba has said above on completing projects :)

I do not know if Varunastra has been tested yet from a sub. I am not even sure if the Varunastra will be compatible aboard the Scorpene. BRF's naval gurus will have to answer that one. But I will say that the French F21 torpedo is the best to get for the Scorpenes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 09:46

Great work by the MOD of the UPA era in banning in haste the whole group and not just the AW helo co.The GOI of the day should've swiftly redressed the same, but were perhaps wary of doing so for political reasonsusing it against the Cong. as this is a v.clear cut case of bribery and corruption exposed in Italy itself! Removing the ban may have looked hypocritical and suspicions aroused.But there should be nothing in principle getting guarantees from Finnmecc. or for that matter any other supplier reg. the same. What happens if another supplier is caught with some illegal acts?

We need torpedoes for several types of subs.One fish may not fit all subs.It would be better to have two families of torpedoes, those designed for Russian subs - their latest torpedo has a 100km range, and those for Western subs which usually have a std. NATO size.Where our V'sastra fits in is anybody's guess.The IN/ DRDO should've long ago done some R&D whether western torpedoes could be used aboard Ru/Sov. subs, vice versa, tests if possible.The results would've been interesting.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2017 11:09

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Great. So the safety and the ability of Indian boats and it's Crew is entirely dependent on the goodness of Australian hearts. Looks like the proverbial nuts are available for oz to squeeze whenever it wishes to.

please see below. I will need more confirmation (homework for me) than kit's observation, but nevertheless a point to note.

kit wrote:You would know the radiated noise "fingerprint" of a submarine only after its built and goes under !!! ..otherwise its guess work looking at blue prints .. precisely for that reason navies devote immense resources on sub hunters. I suspect the finger prints would vary after each refit / upgrade.

Phew. So there is a fig leaf cover the unmentionables. Thank God for small mercies. Now i can sleep easy.:) To think they'd have to be at generosity of the Aussies of all the people.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 12:15

The Scorpene leaks is a grave problem along with the French assuring OZ that we would never get superior sub tech to what they would give OZ.In the light of both of these factors normally building extra Scorpenes should be avoided.German U-17boats served us well for 3 decades.Time to consider them again also cheaper than French subs.Two lines One western and another Russian will give us the best of both.By 2030 we should design our own conv. boats combining the best features of all tech available.

However shallow waters in the IOR littoral require a diff. solution from far away blue water ops best served by N- subs.Here at least work has officially "begun" on our 6 SSNs.

CNS: "500 aircraft and helos within 10 years".Right now we have 230+ of all types.We know that the current reg. is 200+ helos , LUHs and multi-role ASW types.Add to that another 60+ carrier fighters and you get 260.The balance 240 would be around 60 trainers, both BTs and AJTs, more helos to replace legacy ones retiring, plus adding to the inventory another 40+ surface warships which the IN aims to have 200-250 vessels of all types.I would assume also doubling the number of LRMP and other med. and light patrol aircraft and acquiring some amphibs.This means acquiring between 30-40 new aircraft and helos per year,assuming that in a decade's time at least 50% of the current inventory will have to be replaced .

That's going to be a v.challenging task given local production rates of HAL which also has huge incoming orders for the LCH, armed ,ALH,LUH of two types and developng its own MH.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 Dec 2017 11:17

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... rpedo.html

SoKo's supercavitating torpdo in action/tests,taking its cuefrom Russia's Shkval. The unique feature of the SoKo UW projectile,is that it is only 125MM in dia. compared to Shkval's 533mm.It could be leveraged also into an anti-torpedo hard-kill defensive system ,something that is urgently reqd. by subs should their acoustic decoys fail.On wonders why the IN has not embarked upon developing supercavitating torpedos of its own.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Dec 2017 13:19

Good vclip fature of French UW tech/products at Naval Group's St.Tropez facility.See the latest F-21 torpedo,Scorpene tunes,LW MU-90 torpedo,etc. Some of these products will definitely end up in Indian Scrpene subs,etc.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... ility.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby krishna_krishna » 20 Dec 2017 19:08

When did this happen, Varunastra accepted for Sindhughosh class (Kilo) and will enter production. Jingo khush Hua, that explains delay in buying torpedoes. Awesome news if true, Jingo khush Hua :D :D :D

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/varu ... 83780.html

The ship-launched anti-submarine torpedo called Varunastra, from Sindhughosh submarines, has been accepted and will be going into production phase, the Defence Research and Development Organisation said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sum » 20 Dec 2017 19:40

Misleading headline. Ship launched one was accepted and the sub launched one was only kicked off in design phase

Not sure of its status since didnt hear of any prototype till now

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2017 19:55

main difference is a sub launched one will be awash in sea water and be rigged to quietly swim out on own power (low setting) than be shot out by a capsule of compressed air like old U-boats and ship launched HWT.
diameter and length will be same.
not a big change imo but some testing is certainly necessary. maybe new electrical interface to hook into the submarine FCS.
its storage, handling and repair in the torpedo room mechanized racks also needs certification.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Anoop » 21 Dec 2017 00:00

Has IN 325 (P8I) already joined service? I ask because i saw it in an unexpected airport.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 21 Dec 2017 00:08

Anoop wrote:Has IN 325 (P8I) already joined service? I ask because i saw it in an unexpected airport.


Did it have IN roundel ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 05:37

What this arrangement does is provides the range to search within. For fingerprinting individual subs, yes, you will need that subs particular idiosyncracies. But now the Aussies (and who knows who else) have the range within which the Scorpene emits and they can tailor their eqpt accordingly. Its a data breach of epic proportions and the greedy DCNS guys are squarely responsible for compromising our security. We should not order a single more Scorpene sub and as harsh as it may be financially, we have to shift to Project 75-I at the soonest. Until and unless, DCNS at its own cost, provides us a revamped Scorpene design with several different design and performance parameters.


Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Great. So the safety and the ability of Indian boats and it's Crew is entirely dependent on the goodness of Australian hearts. Looks like the proverbial nuts are available for oz to squeeze whenever it wishes to.

please see below. I will need more confirmation (homework for me) than kit's observation, but nevertheless a point to note.

kit wrote:You would know the radiated noise "fingerprint" of a submarine only after its built and goes under !!! ..otherwise its guess work looking at blue prints .. precisely for that reason navies devote immense resources on sub hunters. I suspect the finger prints would vary after each refit / upgrade.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Dec 2017 05:39

When is macaroni visiting dilli? Maybe we'll get some things to chew on then
..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 05:59

Yes, will I hope that results in a follow on order for a few more Rafales - but I won't be holding my breath.

Gujarat election results mean last pre-election year will have more sops and populist measures, so that is a firm indication money will not exactly be flowing for big-ticket foreign purchases.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2017 06:12

I have a strong feeling every french system is compromised to cheen either direct or via moles in australia or arab nations

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 21 Dec 2017 11:01

Don't the Chinese have the Kilo signatures (given that they operate it too) ? I'm sure TSP can get the U209 signatures from Turkey.

If it is foreign-made much less a foreign design, we must assume that our adverseries are going to get it.

The only difference in Scorpene was that it was publicly available and became headline news. I don't have too much liking to DCNS (esp after reports that they won't sell advanced Barracuda stuff to India) but singling out Scorpenes is unfair.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Anoop » 21 Dec 2017 13:16

Karthik S wrote: Did it have IN roundel ?


Yes and Nau Sena written in Hindi.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 13:51

srin wrote:Don't the Chinese have the Kilo signatures (given that they operate it too) ? I'm sure TSP can get the U209 signatures from Turkey.

If it is foreign-made much less a foreign design, we must assume that our adverseries are going to get it.

The only difference in Scorpene was that it was publicly available and became headline news. I don't have too much liking to DCNS (esp after reports that they won't sell advanced Barracuda stuff to India) but singling out Scorpenes is unfair
.


Its not that straight forward. It was not merely signatures, but almost everything regarding the sensor suite.
The Aussies now know where the scorpene operates it, what it typically can emit, what kind of sensors and bands it has and so forth.
Their detection and other systems have an entire preloaded library and their anti-sub ops know have a complete overview of the scorpene class.

Our Kilo class subs have a mix of Indian and German and European electronics and local batteries at least.

Most of this stuff, for submarines is heavily classified. For fighters, tanks, at least you get some basic data. For subs, even that is only released under strict commercial terms of non disclosure to other parties. Scorpene data is now available happily with our good old friends worldwide.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby hnair » 21 Dec 2017 14:28

It is not the emission alone of the Indian sub, because they can be distorted or queered up by jugaad. Plus as someone pointed out above, each sub will have its own tune and wont be known until it is extensively mapped under various speeds and sea conditions by naval snoops.

So I think we need to go beyond "what if the find me?" for such issues and think of the offensive pic. The scorpene data for aussies means if an aussie sub needed to be hunted down by an Indian scorpene, the oz sub will know exactly what is the range or capability of the Indian sub's sensor suite and easily evade detection, by operating just beyond its range or spectrum.

At the same time, it will know the blank spots in the sensor suite of the Indian sub and sneak upon it to turn hunted-became-hunter. If some oz (and they are nation of betting types) decides to sell that info in the open market, that is even worse.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 14:35

Yes, exactly.

They know every darn thing about operating conditions of the Indian sub.

They detect a single pulse from an unknown contact - it will automatically correlate to some data from the leak and be classified as scorpene. Now the rest of the data on the class and hence tactics can be tailored accordingly.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/mul ... 84577g.jpg

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 14:37

22 thousand pages of documentation.

Is anyone still kidding themselves more Scorpenes should be ordered?

Are we really that stupid.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 21 Dec 2017 14:38

Apologize for the continuing naive question. Wouldn't that be an issue with our Kilo's as well ? Given that Chinese too operate them.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 14:42

Srin - our Kilos have Indian sonars plus a lot of custom IN fitments. Our Kilos are also different from the PRC ones. Extent of local mods will only be known post retirement.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 14:51

I wont even put up the specific redacted images from the data leak. It will give everyone severe depression and anger issues. Its a data breach of completely bizarre proportions. Radiated noise at specific speeds, detailed technical manuals of each and every weapons sensor system, list goes on and on and on.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 21 Dec 2017 15:03

^^^
It got released by a reporter and became known worldwide even to the general public. Otherwise all these info would be in the secret hands of American, European and their close allies. Time to stop importing.

I remember reading a story long time ago about how the British got the French to reveal information on how to counter the Exocet during the Falklands War. All hush-hush of course.

It's basically an open secret. If you import, then don't fight that country and its allies. They will know classified specs. You won't win using those imported weaponary.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 16:20

^^ High time MOD created a billion $ fund for import replacement program for state of art fighter radars, submarine sonars and sensors plus select weaponry. This import reliance has become a complete farce.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2017 16:26

Forget fighting French allies or NATO, the DCNS crook was hopping around Asia in 2011 with the entire set of classified data, shopping it around to everyone. Clearly the PRC and if them, even TSP will have a set.
We don't have any negotiating power whatsoever or the financial capability to renegotiate sensor and other detail fitment on our Scorpenes, so we are stuck with them.
In 1980's also, HDW shared our classified data on 209 subs with South Africa or some other country.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shaun » 21 Dec 2017 17:56

What if secrets of our nuclear boats gets leaked out from the house of LnT by some ex employee. What would have been our reaction ???

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby krishna_krishna » 21 Dec 2017 18:25

^^ It would amount to being charged for waging war against the nation. Anyways if you run mind horses amok, you can think about n number of possibilities.
Karan M wrote:^^ High time MOD created a billion $ fund for import replacement program for state of art fighter radars, submarine sonars and sensors plus select weaponry. This import reliance has become a complete farce.



Karan M: My anger on this is more when people peddled more scorepenes. What we need is more Indian design SSK and SSNs with selective foreign components (torpedos, sensors etc). What I do not understand is top brass is still interested in getting this compromised "maal " for our SSN's, any reason why we are eager ?


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