Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 07 Jun 2018 00:21

Everyone keeps talking about foreign influence on Indian design, so let me point out an indelible Indian influence on foreign design.

For LCA Navy, we went with a two seater design with the rear cockpit used for avionics & possibly additional fuel. The same design element was used for MiG-29K and possibly carried forward in MiG-35 that takes forward MiG-29K developments (paid by India) to land based fighters.

So whenever you see this design, remember Indians came up with it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2018 02:55

Jaysimha, our UW thingy was more the size of a torpedo if I'm right.The IN are probably looking for something on the lines of the new US long endurance drones developed to track subs for weeks and months on end. US systems are at the moment unarmed, but could change after first usage.

We need a long endurance UW surveillance system that could have at least a 30 to 60 day endurance located at the ANC monitoring any enemy subs ingressing into the IOR .They need to be integrated/ networked with our P-8Is and IL-38s apart from our subs and warships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 08 Jun 2018 00:26

Anyone knows the status of INS Shivalik post 10th Jan, 2018 fire? Is she back in active operational status?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2018 10:51

Indian Navy briefs government on urgent requirement of Landing Ships

The Indian Navy has briefed the government on an urgent requirement for warships that can transport at least 3000 fully armed troops and speedily disembark them on land.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby lakshmanM » 08 Jun 2018 11:17

VC11184, she is nearly ready (probably already is) :wink:
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby maz » 09 Jun 2018 05:22

Loads of material at DMN on Indian naval Aviation. It is a bit dated but still useful

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/ser ... -aviation/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby maz » 09 Jun 2018 05:26

Any idea of the timeframe when the OSS pix were taken? The whole ship appears to have received a new coat of paint - at least to the hull. Look by the flags. at the below picture
Image
Image

Not sure if HSL will be able to deliver the ship in 2018. After all, HSL is not exactly known for building ships on time. It took them almost 8 years 8 months to build and eliver the 51m long IPV Rani Rashmoni - seen above- to the Coast Guard. About the only vessels they built on time were two naval tugs that were completed rapidly - in time for the Feb 2016 IFR.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby maz » 09 Jun 2018 06:47

The link to the image of the Kavach aboard the Kulish is broken. Any chance it can be fixed?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 09 Jun 2018 07:03

maz wrote:Any idea of the timeframe when the OSS pix were taken? The ship appears to have received a new coat of paint - at least to the hull. Look by the flags.
Image

Not sure if HSL will be able to deliver the ship in 2018. After all, HSL is not exactly known for building ships on time. It took them almost 8 years 8 months to build and eliver the 51m long IPV Rani Rashmoni - seen above- to the Coast Guard. About the only vessels they built on time were two naval tugs that were completed rapidly - in time for the Feb 2016 IFR.



8 years 8 months !!! :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2018 07:34

A decent yard would take 1 year max for a simple ship this size

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby arun » 09 Jun 2018 07:56

lakshmanM wrote:VC11184, she is nearly ready (probably already is) :wink:

.............{Images Snipped}..............


Good on you for ferretting out these pictures 8) .

Indeed, commissioning any time soon. Article in Janes dating back to Nov 2017 indicating commissioning of VC11184 aka Ocean Surveillance Ship (OSS) in early 2018.

Looking very TFTA with that large Golf Ball radome plunked down on the deck behind the bridge:

India to commission ocean surveillance ship in 2018

Rahul Bedi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
23 November 2017

India is set to commission its indigenously designed, missile-tracking ocean surveillance ship (OSS) in 2018 to support the country’s classified strategic weapon and ballistic missile defence (BMD) programmes, official sources have told Jane’s .

Designated VC11184 after the yard in the Indian port city of Visakhapatnam where it has been under construction since 2013 by the Ministry of Defence (MoD)-owned Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL), the secretive OSS programme is under direct control of the prime minister’s office via the national security advisor.

This monitoring arrangement is similar to that of India’s secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) programme that was launched in the 1970s to indigenously build nuclear-powered submarines at Visakhapatnam.

Designed by private-sector Vik-Sandvik Design India (VSDI) and costing around INR15 billion (USD231.29 million), the 175 m-long OSS with a displacement of more than 10,000 tonnes is being fitted out by HSL before undergoing sea trials from early 2018.

Powered by two imported 9,000 kW engines – in a combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) configuration – capable of attaining a speed of 21 kt and equipped with three 1,200 ekW auxiliary generators, the OSS is fitted with primary X-Band and secondary S-Band active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar to monitor indigenously developed strategic and other missile systems. Besides gathering electronic intelligence, the ship is expected support the second phase of the locally designed multitiered BMD shield.

Manned by a crew of 300, the OSS has a large top deck with space to install multiple missile tracking antennas in addition to an embarked helicopter.

Security officials told Jane’s that only four other countries – China, France, Russia, and the United States – operate similar platforms.


From Janes:

Clicky

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2018 08:57

good pics and details of murican tracking ships...gives an idea of the vast size and power of ABM / early warning radars

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these ... 1594677657

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby lakshmanM » 09 Jun 2018 09:37

maz wrote:Any idea of the timeframe when the OSS pix were taken? The whole ship appears to have received a new coat of paint - at least to the hull. Look by the flags. at the below picture
Image
Image

Not sure if HSL will be able to deliver the ship in 2018. After all, HSL is not exactly known for building ships on time. It took them almost 8 years 8 months to build and eliver the 51m long IPV Rani Rashmoni - seen above- to the Coast Guard. About the only vessels they built on time were two naval tugs that were completed rapidly - in time for the Feb 2016 IFR.


Early 2018, The speed at which they built OSS is quite impressive (for Indian shipyard).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby maz » 09 Jun 2018 10:08

lakshmanM, yes, good job indeed for finding these pix. There is pressure from the very top to complete this ship - hence the relatively decent pace of work.;)Sadly, for the CG, I think they have no such influence :(

The Jane's piece echoed what HSL officials said at the time. Do a google search for VC 11184 and planned delivery dates. It is sometime in 2018 based on late 2017 statements. Based on experience, it is best to wait and see when the ship actually gets completed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 09 Jun 2018 12:44

Austin wrote:Indian Navy briefs government on urgent requirement of Landing Ships

The Indian Navy has briefed the government on an urgent requirement for warships that can transport at least 3000 fully armed troops and speedily disembark them on land.


Is this urgent over helicopter and minesweepers?

Where do we want to land 3000 troops?

Sometimes I wonder about IN's priorities. The Navy should be moving sky and earth for chopper, instead we get reports of urgent need of nuke carriers, lpd..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 09 Jun 2018 15:05

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default/files/tender_document/BROWSFORIACVIKRAMADITYA-1-10%281%29.pdf?download=1

DIRECTOR GENERAL NAVAL PROJECTS
PROJECT DIRECTOR & COMMANDER WORKS ENGINEERS (EQPT)1
NAVAL BASE POST, VISAKHAPATNAM - 530 014
Ref No. DG/0991/DDG(E)/GP-04/TOKEN-01OF 2018-19 dated 08 Jun 2018
Name of work: Manufacture, supply, test and commissioning of Brows (Gangways) for IAC Vikramaditya

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 09 Jun 2018 15:17

nam wrote:
Austin wrote:Indian Navy briefs government on urgent requirement of Landing Ships

The Indian Navy has briefed the government on an urgent requirement for warships that can transport at least 3000 fully armed troops and speedily disembark them on land.


Is this urgent over helicopter and minesweepers?

Where do we want to land 3000 troops?

Sometimes I wonder about IN's priorities. The Navy should be moving sky and earth for chopper, instead we get reports of urgent need of nuke carriers, lpd..




This would be an Army generated requirement, to land 3000 troops.

The IN merely provides the transportation as per the Army's requirements.


Also, I understand that the hans have army troops stationed in the maldives, in the guise of construction workers. It is also why everyone was walikng on egg shells.

That complicates a lot of things for us and knocks the very bottom out of a great many options available to us.

Some of the options left to us now have the real possibility of spiralling rapidly out of control and up the escalatory ladder.

Put 2 and 2 together.

we are just trying to get our mojo back.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 09 Jun 2018 15:30

Philip wrote:Jaysimha, our UW thingy was more the size of a torpedo if I'm right.The IN are probably looking for something on the lines of the new US long endurance drones developed to track subs for weeks and months on end. US systems are at the moment unarmed, but could change after first usage.

We need a long endurance UW surveillance system that could have at least a 30 to 60 day endurance located at the ANC monitoring any enemy subs ingressing into the IOR .They need to be integrated/ networked with our P-8Is and IL-38s apart from our subs and warships.


Our tender is asking for 15day endurance.

meanwhile reposting for records the drdo Technologies for Underwater Surveillance Systems
https://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2017/TF_Mar_2017_WEB.pdf

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 09 Jun 2018 16:23

chetak wrote:

This would be an Army generated requirement, to land 3000 troops.

The IN merely provides the transportation as per the Army's requirements.


Also, I understand that the hans have army troops stationed in the maldives, in the guise of construction workers. It is also why everyone was walikng on egg shells.



The thing is our ships won't be landing any troops anywhere, if we don't have ASW helicopters to hunt the Chinese subs which will be blowing up our LHD carrying those 3000 troops.

Similarly the Chinese will have tough time doing what they want to do, if IN SSNs are hunting the IOR.

I hope we prioritize our resources. We need helis & subs on a double. LHD, carriers can wait.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 09 Jun 2018 20:49

We should have taken the 2 Russian Mistrals when they were available. /my 2 paise

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2018 20:55

oddly enough Egypt took them. unless they want to invade Sudan via the upper Nile and jumping over the aswan dam, I dont see a use-case.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2018 21:03

Cheapest and fastest solution is to acquire dual-use ro-ro ferries, which can carry hundress of passrs, plus v.large vehicle decks which can transport juggernaut lorries, Vas, whatever.

But it is true that priorities seem misplaced.ASW helos in their hundreds required. Then conv. AIP subs and swifter completion of on-going surface ship projects, farming out more to put. shipyards.6 P-75I subs to be built at MDL as is being contemplated will be completed only by 2018 to 2030 at its rate of production.With the first of the Kilos and U- 209s ready for retirement anytime post 2025, the It's sub numbers will still be vastly inferior to that of China , barely a dozen comparatively new non- AIP Scorpenes and the 75Is and half the Kilo fleet.This still adds up to barely 16 to 18 conv. subs, plus around 6 N-subs in comparison to China's massive sub fleet of 80+ subs both nuclear and AIP.The PLAN will be able to at least match the IN one for one with subs in the IOR , not including the PN's 12 +.

This is an alarming situ and unless there are two sub lines being built in both a DPSU and put. yard, to give us at least 24 AIP conv. subs apart from our SSBNs and SSNs, we will be hard put to keep the Indian Ocean Indian.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2018 21:09

exactly , there are lot of large ferries moving around in places like mediterranean, baltic, black, ASEAN whose designs we can look at and quickly get a few for cheaply.

dont need a landing ship for every need. perfect is worst enemy of good enough.

some of these ships are drive through with the bow opening like a james bond movie for vehicular passage

we need to stop trying to do everything, reinventing the wheel and wasting time/money ---- we need ASW helos and SSNs asap

Image

Image

good enough for invading Male complete with a stock of 4x4 and BMP2.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2018 22:34

Can these withstand high sea state and have good sea keeping qualities in these conditions , can the metals on these ships withstand small arm fires and have longer life in sea conditions ? Commercial ships might be built to a standard that may not meet mil ones.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 11 Jun 2018 01:35

Austin wrote:Can these withstand high sea state and have good sea keeping qualities in these conditions , can the metals on these ships withstand small arm fires and have longer life in sea conditions ? Commercial ships might be built to a standard that may not meet mil ones.


Problem is that MoD is unable to conclude any acquisition process with a level of certainity. Apart from gold spec Juan Carlos MKI there are many other options;

- second hand purchases
- Vikrant mod for commando ops
- Russian mistral
- more LSTs
- passenger ships for uncontested port landings

Can MoD and PSU shipyard combine execute any of the above? I would take anything

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 11 Jun 2018 02:23

nam wrote:
chetak wrote:

This would be an Army generated requirement, to land 3000 troops.

The IN merely provides the transportation as per the Army's requirements.


Also, I understand that the hans have army troops stationed in the maldives, in the guise of construction workers. It is also why everyone was walikng on egg shells.



The thing is our ships won't be landing any troops anywhere, if we don't have ASW helicopters to hunt the Chinese subs which will be blowing up our LHD carrying those 3000 troops.

Similarly the Chinese will have tough time doing what they want to do, if IN SSNs are hunting the IOR.

I hope we prioritize our resources. We need helis & subs on a double. LHD, carriers can wait.


We are now into second guessing the IN's projected requirements and it's threat assessments related to acquiring of operational assets??

Is it because some believe that they know better than the IN who will be actually sailing into harm's way while we recline further on the La-Z-Boy and reach for another cold one??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2018 03:09

Why IN ? There seem to be several IN ranging from ssbn through emals to mistrals and 1 desi budget

American navy on indian budget not possible

With the jalashwa not being so hot perhaps a tarawa class used lpd is being looked at

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 11 Jun 2018 07:11

My main worry has been this:

Sandeep @SandeepUnnithan
Following Following @SandeepUnnithan
More
China is cranking out destroyers @ ‘19 DDGs in six years, or an average of just over three a year.’ we can barely produce 1 in 3 yrs.


With lowered defense budget as a percentage of GDP and pathetic state of DDG construction, 10 years down the line, we will be hopelessly outnumbered.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby yensoy » 11 Jun 2018 08:35

Singha wrote:oddly enough Egypt took them. unless they want to invade Sudan via the upper Nile and jumping over the aswan dam, I dont see a use-case.


Remember, the #1 reason for the existence of militaries of most countries is to assert control over their own population.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2018 08:38

These ferries are fantastic, can withstand Atlantic hurricanes.I was aboard such a ferry some years ago in a Force 8 to9 storm which suddenly built up when visiting the Orkney islands and the famous naval anchorage at Scapa Flow.The ship had various thrusters which kept her on a steady keel,but when we got off it we couldn't stand upright and had to virtually crawl our way to the coach taking us to Kirkwall.

Chin warship production incredible.Unless we hugely increase the naval budget, modernise asap DPSU yards and place large orders with capable put. yards like L&T, we will have no alternative but to buy a few firang vessels now and again as we're planning with the extra Talwars/ Grigs.We seem to be able to deliver smaller less sophisticated vessels easily, but complex multi- role major warships that require huge fitting out, rather poorly on delivery.The latest Chin DDGs carry 124+ missile silos each, 2 to 3 times as much as one of our latest DDGs by comparison.Not only will we have to counter the Plan's superiority in numbers but also their heavier arsenal.

BMos- H when it arrives will restore the qualitative edge but numbers as they say," have a quality of their own " .


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2018 10:51

the sea king replacement is perhaps the most urgent. not only is their ASW gear outdated, the sea eagle missile EOLed but they are unable to keep most of them in the air. what little is serviceable are being rotated between ships in harbour and those at sea. No DDG/FFG is even carrying its designed complement of 2.

if we have selected the SH70, we should ask to lease some 25 from USN stock asap to tide over immediately shortage while the final deal gets signed and production ramps up to deliver which will take 3-4 years best case. I am sure they have ample stocks lying around in training bases on land or attrition reserves. let them be equipped with the harpoon and basic ASW kit for now, while our final selection of mission eqpt will come in the new build frames.

I hope PMO goes the FMS route on this, than a ponderous global tender and trials of the SH60 vs NH90 - both are good, but SH60 has 10x the production and 10x the upgrade pipeline being a critical asset of the #1 navy - so its future proof investment like the chinook/c17/c130.

gear to defang the cheen navy is probably one area where khan will not mind passing us some good kit.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby lakshmanM » 11 Jun 2018 13:24

IAC-1 Vikrant May-2018.
Image
Image
http://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/06/iac-vikrant-images-may-2018.html
Anything about RAN-40L?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2018 16:51

Both ASW helos are good but US helos come with the threat of sanctions, etc.Esp. in the light of the latest threat
about buying from Russia.The NH-90 is the NATO favourite- thete is a Eurocopter alternative too.Safer to go with either one.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 11 Jun 2018 17:02

Philip wrote:Both ASW helos are good but US helos come with the threat of sanctions, etc.Esp. in the light of the latest threat
about buying from Russia.The NH-90 is the NATO favourite- thete is a Eurocopter alternative too.Safer to go with either one.


NH-90 is by NHIndustries in which blacklisted Leonardo (formerly AgustaWestland) is a share holder (30%+) so i doubt Indian Navy buying it. May be Airbus Helicopters H225M (EC725 Caracal/Super Cougar)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 11 Jun 2018 20:58

Philip wrote:Both ASW helos are good but US helos come with the threat of sanctions, etc.Esp. in the light of the latest threat
about buying from Russia.The NH-90 is the NATO favourite- thete is a Eurocopter alternative too.Safer to go with either one.



isnt NH 90 the expensive and troubled option?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/norway-runs-into-fresh-problem-with-nh90-helicopters-445470/

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/187669/germany-bundeswehr-grounds-nh90-helicopters-for-checks.html

Bad idea!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 11 Jun 2018 20:59

Russians helicopters are a perennial favourite

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 11 Jun 2018 21:49

I say any option is better than no option.

Pak Navy has purchased second hand Seakings ... We could have done the same. Recall talks to buy Canadian samples ... What came of that?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 12 Jun 2018 07:49

2nd hand seakings with dated engines and ASW gear will not be VFM - we need newer platforms with higher uptime and quality.

unless we want to make a mig21bison and soldier on for decades.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 12 Jun 2018 08:09

Do we have a choice ? Where is the money to buy imported expensive asw choppers, next year election season

Let the navy use asw Dhruv with upgraded seaking and Kamov


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