Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 21 Jun 2018 17:34

Chota Ambani is the biggest hindrance to desh! His corruption and subservience to Chinese banks and Energy generation equipment-suppliers is unparalleled.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesha » 23 Jun 2018 14:05

INDIA LOOKING TO BUY 12 MORE P-8I NAVAL SURVEILLANCE AIRCRAFT FROM U.S.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2018/06 ... naval.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sarabpal.s » 23 Jun 2018 14:43

JTull wrote:Chota Ambani is the biggest hindrance to desh! His corruption and subservience to Chinese banks and Energy generation equipment-suppliers is unparalleled.



True 100%

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby mody » 23 Jun 2018 15:04

Hindustan Times reported yesterday that MoD has approved $2Billion purchase of 24 S-70 helicopters in outright purchase in govt. to govt contract.

The agreement for this will most likely be signed in the 2+2 meeting scheduled to take place.

Finally some progress on the helicopter front for the navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Jun 2018 15:16

Can some guru shed light on why we are not going for Ka 28 and Ka 31 ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 23 Jun 2018 16:53

mody wrote:Hindustan Times reported yesterday that MoD has approved $2Billion purchase of 24 S-70 helicopters in outright purchase in govt. to govt contract.

The agreement for this will most likely be signed in the 2+2 meeting scheduled to take place.

Finally some progress on the helicopter front for the navy.


Well, that’s a bit of mixed emotions. Finally the Navy gets their helos after more than a decade of looming deficit with the Sea Kings aging.

Melancholy that we have no Indian product considered for our shipborne helos though we knew we will need to buy in this category for years upon years now. We tested Dhruv on Viraat in 1998.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jun 2018 19:25

Good news nevertheless. I wish we had bought more, but 24 is a good start.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby barath_s » 23 Jun 2018 19:40

Karthik S wrote:Can some guru shed light on why we are not going for Ka 28 and Ka 31 ?


Extreme procurement dysfunction along with interim ratcheting navy desperation and political dog and pony show.

India has a need for 234(or more) helicopters and there are plans for 111 naval utility helicopters (NUH) and 123 naval multi-role helicopters (NMRH). (the latter including Anti submarine warfare ASW, antisurface warfare Asuw and special ops) That has wended its way through various policies, like make in india, Strategic Partnership model of the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2016 (ie Indian private corp making it with aid of foreign vendor), tie up of kamov and HAL(a public sector company) and resulting confusion will no doubt take years more to sort out. 6 major global players, major indian corporates and HAL will try to navigate,befoul others and win orders. The NMRH RFI (latest) should have been responded to by Russian helicopters,Lockheed Martin (owner of Sikorsky), Bell etc in 2017 and the NMRH RFP is probably somewhere in the future with selection of foreign partner, indian partner, then negotiation , start up etc.. (HAL and Kamov have tied up for Ka 226 in the NUH role to replace old/dwindling Cheetah/Chetak choppers, the NUH also has to be sorted out)

In the interim, recognizing that things were desperate ( With maybe 5 of 17 obsolete sea kings, and 4 of 11 obsolete Ka -28 actually serviceable in navy use), india held a competition starting ~2009 and selected S70 in 2011 or actually, 2014 under FMS model. The negotiation for 16 interim choppers for ASW broke down as NH90 was disqualified from the shortlist Augusta westland complications, leonardo going broke etc, leaving a single vendor situation, and then india couldn't come to a price agreement with sikorsky (Several years after the bid, india was looking for original price, and sikorsky to eat Rupee-dollar rate changes).

Then there came a idea to go for 24 S70 under FMS route for ASW as the 'natural selection' as the 16 S70 bid finally collapsed. That too waffled and took several months.

Now, since there are going to be 2+2 meetings between indian political establishment and the us one, something has to be shown as accomplished, and the navy is desperate (with empty pockets and chaddi since nothing was ever accomplished over all these years except slow degradation of existing obsolete plans). So up comes the proposal for 24 S70 via FMS route again, along with movement on COMCASA agreement etc.

FMS route is preferred as it can be shown as clean (with elections not far away), procurement will actually be administered by a much more professional organization (US), and supply chains etc are already much more in place at the foreign companies main plant (making it quicker, more efficient/cheaper etc)

To make it clear, I'm not knocking the S70. The S70 is a pretty good product; US avionics and engines are often better than Russian ones. I'm not sure if ASW component compatibility with P8i is present or a factor. There already was a selection of S70 for the interim ASW orders, while existing kamov have limited upgrade options . But almost any choice would be better than the current mess.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 23 Jun 2018 21:05

Karthik S wrote:Can some guru shed light on why we are not going for Ka 28 and Ka 31 ?

Russia has not offered Ka-27m they only offer the downgraded Ka-28 ( downgraded Ka-27pl) and currently just to modernize them to bring them up to standards Russia was currently asking 30 mill each ( still far inferior to Ka-27m). Ka-27m in sensor suite and capabilities is comparable to Seahawk to my knowledge it's never been offered to India. Ka-28 are known to be quite unreliable and have a high operating cost.

I am actually glad NH90 fell thru, originally was strong supporter but seeing the issues countries are having with NH90 we dogged a bullet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 23 Jun 2018 22:04

My understanding was that S70 was chosen because we didn't want FMS, we wanted direct sales. After the NMRH competition collapsed (blacklisting of all and sundry and ending up with single vendor), we're just reverting to FMS as the way forward.

However, I thought the current thinking is to get MH-60R and not S70. I actually don't know the difference between those two and if it makes any difference in capabilities.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 23 Jun 2018 23:56

The asinine procurement protocol of the MOD results in tenders being scrapped time and again ad nauseum.There's no need to list them.So ultimately when the acute crisis is on the brink of catastrophe for the service in Q, knee-jerk G-to-G deals are done, at e orbotant cost as in the Rafale deal, ammo shortage and now ASW helos. It is a pity that none of the European ASW helos were seriously considered.The USN appears to be quite successful at seducing the IN into buying US wares for I teroperability that it covertly plans, integrating the IN into its satellite navy under US control vs China.

However, the dereliction of duty reg. the long overdue ASW helo acquisition makes any bird acquired much better than nothing!

Given our precarious finances, upgrading all Ru Kamovs makes sense and the Russians do not have a decent medium sized ASW helo in the Sea King class.It remains to be seen how capable a naval KA-226 will be for the naval LUH, but costwise certainly a decent prospect considering some 200+ will be built for the IA. Twin engined also gives it a + point for a naval helo.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 24 Jun 2018 01:34

srin wrote:My understanding was that S70 was chosen because we didn't want FMS, we wanted direct sales. After the NMRH competition collapsed (blacklisting of all and sundry and ending up with single vendor), we're just reverting to FMS as the way forward.

However, I thought the current thinking is to get MH-60R and not S70. I actually don't know the difference between those two and if it makes any difference in capabilities.

S-70B is export designation we don't know what variant of SH-60B is being acquired.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 01:51

barath_s wrote:Now, since there are going to be 2+2 meetings between indian political establishment and the us one, something has to be shown as accomplished, and the navy is desperate (with empty pockets and chaddi since nothing was ever accomplished over all these years except slow degradation of existing obsolete plans). So up comes the proposal for 24 S70 via FMS route again, along with movement on COMCASA agreement etc.

FMS route is preferred as it can be shown as clean (with elections not far away), procurement will actually be administered by a much more professional organization (US), and supply chains etc are already much more in place at the foreign companies main plant (making it quicker, more efficient/cheaper etc)

To make it clear, I'm not knocking the S70. The S70 is a pretty good product; US avionics and engines are often better than Russian ones. I'm not sure if ASW component compatibility with P8i is present or a factor. There already was a selection of S70 for the interim ASW orders, while existing kamov have limited upgrade options . But almost any choice would be better than the current mess.

This purchase and the planned purchase for another 12 P-8Is is just that. To show the Amreekis that we still are their preferred buyer for peripherals - ASW helos, drones, maritime patrol aircraft. The fighters (for the IAF mainly) are another matter.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 01:52

John wrote:
srin wrote:My understanding was that S70 was chosen because we didn't want FMS, we wanted direct sales. After the NMRH competition collapsed (blacklisting of all and sundry and ending up with single vendor), we're just reverting to FMS as the way forward.

However, I thought the current thinking is to get MH-60R and not S70. I actually don't know the difference between those two and if it makes any difference in capabilities.

S-70B is export designation we don't know what variant of SH-60B is being acquired.

This is the one on offer....robust and proven platform. Will serve the navy well.

These building blocks are essential, prior to any Vishaal acquistion. 24 is a good start - the Vikramaditya, the upcoming Vikrant, the Delhi Class DDG, the Kolkata Class DDG and the upcoming Visakhapatnam Class DDG all need them.

Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/pr ... pters.html


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 02:18

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 7596787712 ----> The DRDO developed Make In India composite sonar dome being fitted to the Indian Navy's P-15A destroyers.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 02:20

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 7254093831 ---> The Make In India Advanced Light Weight Torpedo (ALWT) developed by DRDO for the Indian Navy. Designed to be launched from ships, helicopters and fixed wing aircraft.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 24 Jun 2018 03:04

Sir - all this apart, DRDO ALTAS is in user trials and has shown excellent results in detecting submarines!!
Finally.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 24 Jun 2018 03:05

Navy is getting choppers? The Indian Navy? Must be a new century.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby barath_s » 24 Jun 2018 11:59

Karan M wrote:Navy is getting choppers? The Indian Navy? Must be a new century.


With indian procurement, you not only don't count your birds until they are hatched, but until they have been flying in your backyard.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby barath_s » 24 Jun 2018 12:12

Rakesh wrote:This purchase and the planned purchase for another 12 P-8Is is just that. To show the Amreekis .


It can be a factor, but there is something even simpler. Any time any high level political meeting happens with any country, they/we have to show some achievement. Something signed. So they ruffle through files, ask private industry, come up with something.

Indian navy is desperately short of ASW platforms. Submarine hull shortfall, god knows when NMRH/ASW choppers for organic fleet protection etc will come through. The P8 works well and s becoming an international hit, too (still in production). So ask for more, as you cannot trust if any ASW will come through

In my opinion, a strategic thinker would have Incorporated, integrated and upgraded sosus in the surrounding seas. But that is 1950s achievement and drdo after some initial noise and production seems to have quietened down
.. This doesn't need airframes; it does need good signal processing, threat libraries, correlation with other signals and timely recording, analysis response , and communication

I have no idea on the exact number of P8 needed (andaman bases etc?). But it seems surprisingly feast and famine and I think land based jet cannot a replacement for ship based choppers.


Rakesh wrote:
This is the one on offer....robust and proven platform. Will serve the navy well.

.....
Wasn't my intent to damn by faint praise. Whatever I have read sounds good, the basic airframe has been around..The equipment, especially avionics has to be kept up to date..
Last edited by barath_s on 24 Jun 2018 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 24 Jun 2018 12:25

Rakesh, any dimensions weight, etc. available for our desi LW torpedo? It would perhaps determine the LUH type bought. Great achievement though, can be fitted onto heaps of smaller warships for a larger number of ASW platforms.

More P-8 Is.Do we have the money? It appears to be an excessive number given the other critical requirements.The huge number of shipboard ASW helos should come first with another 4+ P-8Is and for that cost even around 8 to 12 IL-38 platforms additionally which can be equipped with as much similar ASW eqpt. internally as on the P-8Is.They are reqd. for " low and slow " missions where jets are unsuitable.This will give us around 24 ASW LRMP aircraft at affordable cost with money left over for ASW helos.

However, if the IN wants larger numbers of LRMP birds then the amphib requirement will have to be shelved.These birds at huge cost have zilch ASW capability and are thus almost worthless countering Chin subs.
Last edited by Philip on 24 Jun 2018 12:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 24 Jun 2018 12:29

Will we be able to integrate Indian weapons/sensors (Ex: Advanced Light Weight Torpedo) on the S70, or will it come as a complete package with no changes possible now or in the future?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 24 Jun 2018 12:36

We must be be able to integrate our desi eqpt.! If we can do it to Ru and other western systems, why must the US systems be different? In any case our P-8Is have their MAD " stings" which aren't on US -P8s.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby barath_s » 24 Jun 2018 12:50

Philip wrote:We must be be able to integrate our desi eqpt.! If we can do it to Ru and other western systems, why must the US systems be different? In any case our P-8Is have their MAD " stings" which aren't on US -P8s.



The P8i uses a foreign MAD; this one https://www.cae.com/media/media-center/ ... re2017.pdf

Threat and trade off are always different. US faces Russian submarines ; Russia has practice degaussing subs and using higher degree of titanium.

Various reasons have been offered for its removal: the MAD weighed too much at 3,500 pounds, it did not fit with the high-altitude search profile of the P-8, or the new sensors on the P-8 rendered it unnecessary. However, the U.S. Navy is reportedly developing a variant of the an air launched drone, called the High-Altitude Unmanned Targeting Air System, which can carry a MAD sensor and transmit its findings back up to the P-8.


India has integrated foreign and third party systems, but to adopt and talk to some of the advanced us systems, it may need signing of comcasa

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 20:37

barath_s wrote:I have no idea on the exact number of P8 needed (andaman bases etc?). But it seems surprisingly feast and famine and I think land based jet cannot a replacement for ship based choppers.

If another 12 are purchased, then 24 is a decent number to maintain sufficient coverage.

Rakesh wrote:Wasn't my intent to damn by faint praise. Whatever I have read sounds good, the basic airframe has been around..The equipment, especially avionics has to be kept up to date..

Absolutely, we will have to pay for upgrades. But tech wise - for *NOW* - it is capable enough to meet the present threat environment from PN and PLAN subs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2018 20:49

Philip wrote:Rakesh, any dimensions weight, etc. available for our desi LW torpedo? It would perhaps determine the LUH type bought. Great achievement though, can be fitted onto heaps of smaller warships for a larger number of ASW platforms.

I have no clue. This is one for Karan Saar to answer.

Philip wrote:More P-8Is. Do we have the money? It appears to be an excessive number given the other critical requirements.The huge number of shipboard ASW helos should come first with another 4+ P-8Is and for that cost even around 8 to 12 IL-38 platforms additionally which can be equipped with as much similar ASW eqpt. internally as on the P-8Is.They are reqd. for " low and slow " missions where jets are unsuitable.This will give us around 24 ASW LRMP aircraft at affordable cost with money left over for ASW helos.

The MoD has money for everything (at least in RFI mode), except for our own products. But that having being said, the Indian Navy needs to retire the IL-38. Maintenance nightmare and a flying hazard.

Philip wrote:However, if the IN wants larger numbers of LRMP birds then the amphib requirement will have to be shelved.These birds at huge cost have zilch ASW capability and are thus almost worthless countering Chin subs.

That is incorrect. The P-8Is have a CAE AN/ASQ-508A magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 24 Jun 2018 21:25

The huge number of shipboard ASW helos should come first with another 4+ P-8Is and for that cost even around 8 to 12 IL-38 platforms additionally which can be equipped with as much similar


Please Philip stop peddling il-38 what are you going do with 8-12 obsolete airframes that are lucky to survive past 2030 and are expensive to maintain and worse they are capabilities are highly questionable ( sea dragon has failed to live up to IN expectations).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Jun 2018 06:11

Sea Dragon a failure as well? John, chai-wallah info or any available link..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 25 Jun 2018 06:50

Karan M wrote:Sea Dragon a failure as well? John, chai-wallah info or any available link..

This was back in late 2000s Sea dragon and other avionics had multiple issues. Navy wasn't too happy either refused payment and was forced to compromise at the end.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... trol-fleet

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 25 Jun 2018 17:48

I'm not "peddling" the old SD suite,but buying the platform available at low cost and equipping it with new eqpt.,similar to what is in the P-8I.Pl. read my post carefully.Jets cannot perform the "low and slow" prosecution of subs unlike truboprops. The IL-38 has great range and endurance and is still a relevant platform otherwise we wouldn't be upgrading the bids.Another 12 P-8Is will beggar the budget which is in dire need for more subs,mine countermeasure ships,and the approx. 200 SW and utility helos.The amphib req. will then have to be shelved as said before the Japanese amphibs are totally useless without any ASW capability and come at huge cost too. The P-8I is also in fact a 737 platform equipped with an ASW suite,but on the same production line as the civil versions.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Jun 2018 17:58

Philip wrote:I'm not "peddling" the old SD suite,but buying the platform available at low cost and equipping it with new eqpt.,similar to what is in the P-8I.Pl. read my post carefully.Jets cannot perform the "low and slow" prosecution of subs unlike truboprops. The IL-38 has great range and endurance and is still a relevant platform otherwise we wouldn't be upgrading the bids.Another 12 P-8Is will beggar the budget which is in dire need for more subs,mine countermeasure ships,and the approx. 200 SW and utility helos.The amphib req. will then have to be shelved as said before the Japanese amphibs are totally useless without any ASW capability and come at huge cost too. The P-8I is also in fact a 737 platform equipped with an ASW suite,but on the same production line as the civil versions.


The P-8I airframe has been strengthened for sustained low level ops, unlike the normal commercial 737s.

They may be running a separate line for it when needed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 25 Jun 2018 18:10

IL-38 has received multiple upgrades and it is not limited to SD configuration , These SD birds have flown down for Weapons and Sensor upgrade besides the usual airframe refit some indian systems with EW and ESM/Datalink has been added and this is an ongoing process ..The 315 makes these trips every 3-5 years for one reason or the other connected to airframe or avionics/weapons. The recent crashlanding of Il-38 Zhukovsky Airfield is related to the same and the airframe was there for upgrades. The initial issue of SD has been fixed and now they have integrated new Air launched Weapons and New Gen Buoys both for ASW role in recent upgrades is what I was told last year , What exactly these are they wont talk and for obvious reasons.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Jun 2018 21:38

Philip wrote:I'm not "peddling" the old SD suite,but buying the platform available at low cost and equipping it with new eqpt.,similar to what is in the P-8I.Pl. read my post carefully.Jets cannot perform the "low and slow" prosecution of subs unlike truboprops. The IL-38 has great range and endurance and is still a relevant platform otherwise we wouldn't be upgrading the bids.Another 12 P-8Is will beggar the budget which is in dire need for more subs,mine countermeasure ships,and the approx. 200 SW and utility helos.The amphib req. will then have to be shelved as said before the Japanese amphibs are totally useless without any ASW capability and come at huge cost too. The P-8I is also in fact a 737 platform equipped with an ASW suite,but on the same production line as the civil versions.


Seriously, what is with this fascination for all things Russian, no matter how obsolete they are? Kindly read the book India's Most Fearless by Aroor & Singh, and you'll know how unreliable the IL-38s have become, with a complete system failure when flying & the entire aircraft being landed by the skin of the crews teeth & sheer piloting skill.

There are other options beyond the P-8I's if cost is the criterion, with newer airframes like the C-295 or other ones. The IL-38s need to be retired asap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Jun 2018 21:41

Austin wrote:IL-38 has received multiple upgrades and it is not limited to SD configuration , These SD birds have flown down for Weapons and Sensor upgrade besides the usual airframe refit some indian systems with EW and ESM/Datalink has been added and this is an ongoing process ..The 315 makes these trips every 3-5 years for one reason or the other connected to airframe or avionics/weapons. The recent crashlanding of Il-38 Zhukovsky Airfield is related to the same and the airframe was there for upgrades. The initial issue of SD has been fixed and now they have integrated new Air launched Weapons and New Gen Buoys both for ASW role in recent upgrades is what I was told last year , What exactly these are they wont talk and for obvious reasons.


I wouldn't be surprised if the recent crashlanding of the IL-38 was again an airframe obsolescence issue with a hydraulic failure or something of the sort. The aircraft are seriously long in the tooth & hence the IN will only be too eager to replace them with higher uptime (albeit at a price) P-8Is.
As regards Indian ESM & datalink, the P-8I also has an Indian Radar Fingerprinting system onboard. Wonder whether it works with an Indian ESM suite or an US ESM suite. It also has BEL's datalink onboard.

Well, that’s where the slide above comes into play — it was in a presentation that Boeing made today to a group of us visting journalists in Washington. It illustrates just how the Indian Navy has plugged the CISMOA-induced gaps on the American platform — notably, speech secrecy kit by India’s state-owned Electronics Corporation of India Ltd (ECIL), IFF interrogator and transponder by BEL and HAL respectively, mobile satellite system by Avantel and fingerprinting kit by BEL. All very interesting.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/07 ... -p-8i.html

The fingerprinting kit is basically a radar signal analysis system, it needs to work with an onboard ESM suite to feed it data, so I wonder whether it is the same DLRL system on IL-38 or Tu-142 adapted for the P-8I.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Jun 2018 21:55

And as usual Indian journos like Aroor demonstrate how clueless they are about Indian systems and capabilities while making all sorts of conclusions over whatever imported brochure show. The Indian Navy didn't plug gaps in the P-8I due to CISMOA unlike what Aroor alleges they made a deliberate choice to use an Indian system using the INSAT for communication.

http://www.avantel.in/defence.php

Similarly, BEL's datalink is the standard datalink used by the IN and was hence used in the P-8I and is mandated for use on other platforms.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 921211.cms

The IN wasn't born yesterday, they spent decades perfecting these systems and hence have them on their platforms.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Jun 2018 22:26

How is airframe obsolescence connected to hydraulic failure??. It was a one off.

The nose wheel did not extend. The main gear did.

The airframes have gone through a life extension program, the engines are OK and the avionics gets upgraded when it does.

If the Ils are to be replaced, more P8s is not the answer.

No point in putting all the eggs in one ameriki basket which is exactly what they are pushing and goading us to do so that they can have us in an anaconda vise lock if we don't behave.

we have already paid a very heavy price with the seakings, never again should we find ourselves in a similar position. They are very specifically targeting the IN only and desperately want to have a say in specific operational areas. They are looking at some sort of wide coverage radar and ELINT imaging for which they need IN assets in place and with access to data from IN ships. The ocean flying drones and the so called foundational agreements are just to nail down this gap in their own capabilities. NATO will not be playing a part here because they have no dog in the fight as yet.

We need a useful turbo prop to fill the gap. Something like the ATR 600 or better but without ameriki involvement in either the engine or the airframe and something that can be built locally to service the needs of the IN as well as the CG. Spillover could, maybe, service the feeder or regional markets.

It has to be a turboprop. Jets don't have enough flexibility for sustained ASW work.

Why the panic to get CISMOA, BECA , or whatever signed now?? Are they not expecting Modi to come back??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jun 2018 05:24

What other aircraft is available now, in lieu of the P-8I? Anything but old & refurbished Russian aircraft, please. Is there such an aircraft that the Navy can acquire? You are well aware of how utterly dysfunctional and broken our procurement system is. Evaluating a new platform will take forever in the halls of the MoD. The Babu who shuffles the file from one desk to the next (like he shuffles a deck of cards) does not care. It is the Navy who suffers.

chetak wrote:Why the panic to get CISMOA, BECA , or whatever signed now?? Are they not expecting Modi to come back??

I guess they think RaGa has sown enough doubts about the present government being corrupt, with the numerous scams they keep fanning the fire on. They believe that RaGa may have a chance in 2019. Check the last post of mine, in the the CAATSA thread.

BTW, it is a big misconception that a jet-powered P-8 is worse off that a turbo-prop like the P-3. Please see below.

Confessions Of A US Navy P-3 Orion Maritime Patrol Pilot
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/confe ... 1598415741

Following a few deployments with the P-3C, my squadron transitioned to the new P-8A Poseidon. The P-8A is derived from the Boeing 737. The aircraft features a Boeing 737-800 fuselage mated to 737-900 wings and is equipped with raked wingtips optimized for low altitude flight and long endurance. In place of a cargo hold, the aircraft boasts additional fuel tanks and a weapons bay. The reliability, speed, and sensor capabilities equate to a significant improvement over the legacy aircraft (the P-3). In the Poseidon, the Navy married advanced sensors and communications connectivity with a modern, highly reliable and efficient airframe that already existed on the commercial marketplace.

If I sound like a Poseidon lover, well then consider me guilty. I am, and admit it honestly. The aircraft is powerful, reliable, and easy to fly. It was a challenge transitioning from a straight wing turboprop to a high altitude, swept wing jet, but I personally found the P-8A to be intuitive and comfortable to fly. The largest difference is not in flight characteristics, but rather in how the pilot interfaces with the aircraft. The P-3C is flown hands-on, with little if any automation. In the Poseidon, the pilot utilizes the Flight Management Computer and a highly advanced coupled autopilot to fly the jet. Whether flying on airway routes or positioning the aircraft to employ sensors, the Poseidon utilizes high levels of automation. This is not harder or easier than flying hands-on, simply different, and requires a different approach.

The tougher part about the jet is acting as a tactical operator and employing the sensors of the aircraft. The P-8A is revolutionary when it comes to sensor management, data fusion, and connectivity. The challenge for operators is not having insufficient sensor performance, but rather how to manage so many capable sensors, process the information, and transmit actionable data to commanders through a variety of communications networks and datalinks.

The P-8A boasts five mission crew workstations, all of which feature dual reconfigurable touchscreen displays and data entry keyboards. The ability to do any job from any workstation makes load sharing possible and is indeed critical to success during a mission. For example, during an information, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) missions we might have extra electronic warfare operators in the seats scanning for radar emitters while another operator scans the radar and maps where those emitters are located. Conversely, during an ASW mission we can place extra acoustic operators in the seats to interpret sonar signals and track a submarine. The flexibility is extremely impressive.

I won't claim the P-8A does everything better than the P-3C. For one, the controls feel very different between the two aircraft. I find the P-3C to be a bit crisper on the controls, especially at low altitude and in the landing pattern. This isn't surprising, given the Orion's thick, straight wing and the swept wing and spoilers on the Poseidon. Also, the lack of a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) aboard the P-8A is a drawback (which the P-8I has). Many folks ask if I feel less comfortable with two engines in the P-8A rather than four in the P-3C. Realistically, I'll take Poseidon any day. The reliability of the CFM-56 turbofans on the jet is generations ahead of the T-56 turboprops on the Orion. CFM-56 shutdown rates are on the order of three per million flight hours. In fact, P-8A has been flying for more than three years and has yet to have an in-flight engine shutdown. I'll take the reliability of the P-8A every time over the P-3C.

Overall, I've found the P-8A allows crew-members to focus more on tactical employment and getting every ounce of performance out of the jet's sensors and weapons. While the Orion is a very safe airplane statistically, it was designed in another age with different design philosophies. It's very hands-on and user intensive especially for pilots and flight engineers. Because of the fact that the P-3C is honestly trying to break, catch on fire, or generally kill you during any given flight, we have to devote a great deal of energy simply to operating it safely. This isn't a hit on the P-3C, any airplane of that generation is like that, and the fact that some of these birds are over 40 years old is a testament to the engineers who designed them and our maintainers who keep them flying. Because reliability is baked into the P-8, we can focus more on tactical effectiveness. The result is higher situational awareness (SA) and much better mission performance in the new jet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 26 Jun 2018 05:57

I am all for acquiring a another small-medium sized aircraft platform to fit the needs however there is fundamental shift happening with UAV with far superior range filling in more and more as for maritime surveillance. So rather than going thru long complicated mess for another aircraft it's cheaper to use P-8i coupled with UAV to fill that need.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jun 2018 06:02

John, you hit the nail on the head. Armed drones are the next piece in the puzzle. Now unless we can develop an armed drone ourselves - that fits the Navy's expectations - we have to go with what is available on the international market. The Navy appears to have zeroed in on the American one.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 26 Jun 2018 07:35

Personally, I am sick and tired of Indian money being used to subsidize a foreign MIC. But of all the options out there and suggested by members. I am most open to the p8.

Why????

Because it takes the least amount of Indian money to perfect the system as it is intended to perform.

Any other system suggested by members will take an unreliable platform and try to perfect it using Indian money.

In the end resulting in a poorly optimised system that is kept together by bubble gum and elbow grease.


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