Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 26 Jun 2018 08:21

Well there was plan (project) for our own MPA based possibly on the on the C295, not sure what happened to it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 08:52

chetak wrote:How is airframe obsolescence connected to hydraulic failure??. It was a one off.

The nose wheel did not extend. The main gear did.


What I meant was all subsystems - airframe related - are long in the tooth. Given what's been written about IL-38 inventory and similar Russian platforms of similar vintage, I wouldn't be surprised if these issues occur every now and then.

The airframes have gone through a life extension program, the engines are OK and the avionics gets upgraded when it does.


The complete and total disastrous failure of the flying IL-38 which occurred IIRC was one of the new upgrades.
I don't have much faith in the Russian system doing a 100% job on such old airframes given many of the OEMs which existed during the FSU have either stopped making things or been handed over to some other country.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 08:55

This is the IL-38 also in a nutshell.

Because of the fact that the P-3C is honestly trying to break, catch on fire, or generally kill you during any given flight, we have to devote a great deal of energy simply to operating it safely. This isn't a hit on the P-3C, any airplane of that generation is like that, and the fact that some of these birds are over 40 years old is a testament to the engineers who designed them and our maintainers who keep them flying. Because reliability is baked into the P-8, we can focus more on tactical effectiveness. The result is higher situational awareness (SA) and much better mission performance in the new jet.


In the incident in question, almost all electric systems on the IL-38 had a complete failure with most backup systems also failing, it was due to a sheer miracle and cool headed persistence of the IN flight crew (b@lls of steel), that the aircraft didn't crash and actually somehow landed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 26 Jun 2018 09:37

An aircraft failure can happen any time and can happen to any aircraft new or old there are many cases of even new aircraft failing for one reason or the other , thats the risk of flying and the failure of recent IN IL-38 front landing gear incident was on a trial test program as part of post SD upgrade and air frame extension so this was not a regular flight.

The flight crew was all Russian doing the upgrade testing from the company near Zukhovoski there was no Indian crew in there and yes they had the balls of steel to land

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/aircraft-il38-in-russia-for-overhaul-mid-life-upgradation-navy/articleshow/63958829.cms

An Indian Navy official said the IL-38 aircraft was on initial test flight and that the extent of damage to the plane in the incident is being ascertained. The Russian-built IL-38 is an anti-submarine warfare aircraft.

"The aircraft is in Russia for Overhaul (OH) and Mid-Life Upgradation (MLU). No Indian Navy crew was onboard during the sortie though they are present in Russia. The aircraft was on initial test flight with all Russian crew," the official said.

The incident had taken place yesterday. According to Russia Today, the plane, which was bracing for the emergency landing, emitted quite dense smoke and was seemingly dumping fuel in order to reduce the chances of catching fire.

It said all the people - four pilots and three technical specialists - on board the aircraft walked away unharmed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 13:29

Austin, I am speaking of a different, serious incident where the crew showed amazing skill and bravery.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&sourc ... tmErboUta4

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 13:32

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&sourc ... MLhm&ampcf

Aboard the massive IL38 aircraft and in the face of cloudy weather, the IL38 — for the first time in the history of its operations in India and Russia — encountered a situation where all the generators on the aircraft failed one after the other. The aircraft experienced what is known as a total electrical failure. The oil radiator shutters were stuck in closed position and the radiator was unable to perform its function of cooling the engine.
This, not surprisingly, led to an imminent possibility of the engine catching fire in case of prolonged flight at low altitude.
"It's very difficult to keep one's mind cool and display professionalism in such a scenario, which Cdr Yadav managed to do," Pillai said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 13:34

Tu-142 and Il-38 both are long past by their sell by date, and newer airframes will be welcomed by the Navy. If not the P-8, then some cheaper turboprop. The upgrades will make them soldier on for a few more years, then the reliability issues will really start kicking in.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby mody » 26 Jun 2018 13:52

With regards to MH60R and S70, the Navy preferred the S70 for some reason. The MH-60R is just the latest upgraded version of the S70. However it does not have MAD sensors. The S70B has them. For some reason, the USN is leaving MAD sensors out of the latest P8's and MH60R, but IN wants them.

Even in 2011, the US at the time had offered MH60R instead of S70B, if we wanted. Don't know if the price was to remain the same or not. However, IN insisted on S70B only. Also, the 2011-14 contract was to be for 16 helicopters, with a option for an additional 8. Now it seems, we are going to go for all 24 in one shot. Makes sense. Hopefully it will go through.

Indian weapons like our advanced light torpedo can be integrated with US platforms, but that will happen only at a latter date. All platform purchases will come with a complement of weapons systems. No getting around this.

Don't know if 12 additional P8I are to be procured or not. We always had the option for 4 more built into the original contract. Maybe Boing is now offering 12 more, at the same terms.

For our MRMP need, using the C295 as a platform makes sense. Though the contract for 56 C295s for the Avro replacement itself, has not been signed as yet.
In fact I would have preferred if a consortium of Indian companies like Mahindra or Tatas would have bought out the assembly line and technology of C-27J from Allenia. There are no more customers for this plane and unlikely to get big orders in the future. We could have got the entire tech and assembly line and then used the basic design to replace the Avros, develop a 15-18 ton enlarged version to replace the AN-32s and also develop our own MRMP platform.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Jun 2018 13:56

Well,barring the tragic collision at Goa during a flypast where we lost 2 IL-38s,we've never lost any of them,TU-142s included. In contrast the IAF have lost a new C-130J,and a couple of AN-32s.These legacy platforms are very tough and enduring.Otherwise we need to look for a newer turboprop platform much cheaper than a P-8I or at least the cost of an IL-38.There aren't that many around.There are a few dozen new IL-38s mothballed why I've put forth the idea as a cost-effective solution.

There is a need for a 4-engined turboprop which has a multi-use capability.The Chinese have a bird ,the KJ-200 AEW &C ,similar to an AN-12,which they've placed atop an AEW radar similar to that aboard our EMBs. Such a platform could be used for LRMP ops,AEW platform,transport/spl. forces,and even as a tanker. The C-130J is a great platform but expensive.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 26 Jun 2018 14:22

People don't understand the fleet utilisation for different platforms. Our p8 fleet has already been utilised in such a fashion that they had reached a 3 Rd of the flight hours accumulated for the 142 in just a few years. When the 142 was in service for over 30 years.

I don't want to know the utilisation rates for the IL 38. Now that the navy has expressed a desire to pick up additional p 8s.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Chinmay » 26 Jun 2018 14:33

Tu-142s flew a total of 30000 hrs from 1988-2017, AFAIK. The P8I fleet accumulated 10000 hrs from 2015-2017..

Clearly, fleet availability is a big problem with the Russian aircraft, unlike US stuff. We pay more for US kit, but we get stuff which is more reliable and uptimes are clearly increased as well.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 26 Jun 2018 15:50

Chinmay wrote:Tu-142s flew a total of 30000 hrs from 1988-2017, AFAIK. The P8I fleet accumulated 10000 hrs from 2015-2017..

Clearly, fleet availability is a big problem with the Russian aircraft, unlike US stuff. We pay more for US kit, but we get stuff which is more reliable and uptimes are clearly increased as well.


This is also partly due to the increased threat perception from Chinese subs in our neighborhood which earlier was little to none and solely concentrated on the western sea board for our neighbour there.

There is also a whole load of ships, including those of our adversaries, patrolling off the Horn of Africa who can make it to indian waters in less than 3 days of sailing at economic speeds which need to be monitored. We also need to monitor their transit from the eastern sector to their patrol areas. All this is causing the increase in the utilisation of the flight hours.

The Tu142 could achieve the same nos too but that would have entailed a very significant increase in OpEx which is why Navy switched over to the P8's since their OpEx is significantly lower in comparison.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 26 Jun 2018 16:45

mody wrote:Don't know if 12 additional P8I are to be procured or not. We always had the option for 4 more built into the original contract. Maybe Boing is now offering 12 more, at the same terms.
.


Jan 13, 2018: Navy may acquire more ‘submarine killers’ Boeing P-8I: Admiral Lanba

The Navy had ordered eight P-8I aircraft in 2009 for $2.1 billion along with a training package. Weapons and torpedoes were extra as needed, and then, under the Options Clause, four more aircraft were ordered in August 2016.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 26 Jun 2018 17:36

JTull wrote:
mody wrote:Don't know if 12 additional P8I are to be procured or not. We always had the option for 4 more built into the original contract. Maybe Boing is now offering 12 more, at the same terms.
.


Jan 13, 2018: Navy may acquire more ‘submarine killers’ Boeing P-8I: Admiral Lanba

The Navy had ordered eight P-8I aircraft in 2009 for $2.1 billion along with a training package. Weapons and torpedoes were extra as needed, and then, under the Options Clause, four more aircraft were ordered in August 2016.


india would be probably be the second largest operator of the P8s then

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Jun 2018 18:16

2 years ago the approval for 4 more P-8 Is was fixed at $1B. 12 more would cos us $3B. A P-3 Orion cost approx. $40M only and an IL-38 is in the same class.Assuming even if $40 to 50M was the cost of a modernised IL-38, and the latest upgrades have been deep, an IL-38 last year fired a KH'35 ASM and sank a ship in a naval EXERCISE for the first time, we would get 4 to 5 ILs for the price of just one P-8I.

That's my point.If we reduce the no. of P-8s to even 8 at $2 B, we could acquire another 12 IL-38s for just $500M.
This would give us approx.16 of each type a very good number .Remember that the IL-38 carries 20t of a variety of weapons including ASW and ASM weaponry and even BMos.Its sensors have a range of 320km for warships, 90km for airborne targets and a range of 9000km.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 26 Jun 2018 19:47

Philip wrote:Remember that the IL-38 carries 20t of a variety of weapons including ASW and ASM weaponry and even BMos.Its sensors have a range of 320km for warships, 90km for airborne targets and a range of 9000km.


Can you please show at least one picture of IL-38 with Brahmos? The IL-38 got the KH-35 just recently after being in service for many many years and I doubt if it will fly with Brahmos before retirement

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 26 Jun 2018 20:10

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:How is airframe obsolescence connected to hydraulic failure??. It was a one off.

The nose wheel did not extend. The main gear did.


What I meant was all subsystems - airframe related - are long in the tooth. Given what's been written about IL-38 inventory and similar Russian platforms of similar vintage, I wouldn't be surprised if these issues occur every now and then.

The airframes have gone through a life extension program, the engines are OK and the avionics gets upgraded when it does.


The complete and total disastrous failure of the flying IL-38 which occurred IIRC was one of the new upgrades.
I don't have much faith in the Russian system doing a 100% job on such old airframes given many of the OEMs which existed during the FSU have either stopped making things or been handed over to some other country.


The complete and total disastrous failure of the flying IL-38 which occurred IIRC was one of the new upgrades.


What's this about, care to elaborate, please??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 26 Jun 2018 22:21

Kakarat wrote:
Philip wrote:Remember that the IL-38 carries 20t of a variety of weapons including ASW and ASM weaponry and even BMos.Its sensors have a range of 320km for warships, 90km for airborne targets and a range of 9000km.


Can you please show at least one picture of IL-38 with Brahmos? The IL-38 got the KH-35 just recently after being in service for many many years and I doubt if it will fly with Brahmos before retirement

I can speak about that it was shown off an CGI picture which later turned out to be complete PR ploy, the CGI picture also showed Mig-27,29,Tu-142 all carrying Brahmos, we know the former two are incapable of carrying Brahmos air launched variant.

As for IL-38 keep in mind IN wanted to base the maritime surveillance fleet around it originally we signed the upgrade contract on 2001 and rebuffed US original offer of P-3 orion. However the upgrade was badly badly botched by Russia, they never really sorted out specs and avionics properly (some blame at DRDO as well from what i recall) by the time the first plane was readied it almost took over 9 years and even then not everything was in. By this time IN got fed up and threatened to pull the money but a compromise was worked it (likely for political reasons) and IN decided to accept the upgraded IL-38. However further procurement plans were canned and even Tu-142 upg was postponed because of this. Boeing approached with P-8I and rest is history.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 22:37

chetak wrote:
Karan M wrote:
What I meant was all subsystems - airframe related - are long in the tooth. Given what's been written about IL-38 inventory and similar Russian platforms of similar vintage, I wouldn't be surprised if these issues occur every now and then.



The complete and total disastrous failure of the flying IL-38 which occurred IIRC was one of the new upgrades.
I don't have much faith in the Russian system doing a 100% job on such old airframes given many of the OEMs which existed during the FSU have either stopped making things or been handed over to some other country.


The complete and total disastrous failure of the flying IL-38 which occurred IIRC was one of the new upgrades.


What's this about, care to elaborate, please??


I have the link above. Complete and total electrical failure. To my mind this shows the design challenges or reliability challenges in the IL-38, that such an improbable event could occur and did, without any redundancy or failsafe kicking in. That it occured, could be due to many issues, reliability/TD/HE etc but that it spiraled into a complete systems failure is a design issue. Also, the Sea Dragon suites started being delivered in 2010, if memory serves. The description of the mission seemed to indicate it was one of the upgrades. Even otherwise, the basic architecture of the aircraft/design was retained.. wouldn't be surprised if even after the upgrade, most of the legacy systems were retained, if not the generation, then the hydraulics or other basic architectural items. Hence the Russian crash landing also shows the challenges in upgrading these old legacy aircraft. Same way, that even with the MiG-27 upgrades the basic aircraft issues retained, forcing the IAF to retire the aircraft.

"Aboard the massive IL38 aircraft and in the face of cloudy weather, the IL38 — for the first time in the history of its operations in India and Russia — encountered a situation where all the generators on the aircraft failed one after the other. The aircraft experienced what is known as a total electrical failure. The oil radiator shutters were stuck in closed position and the radiator was unable to perform its function of cooling the engine.
This, not surprisingly, led to an imminent possibility of the engine catching fire in case of prolonged flight at low altitude.
"It's very difficult to keep one's mind cool and display professionalism in such a scenario, which Cdr Yadav managed to do," Pillai said."


Edit: The flight occurred on 22 May 2009, so likely a pre-upgrade aircraft.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 26 Jun 2018 22:42

The single biggest reason to go in for the P-8I from the Navy's perspective is the reliability of the Boeing 737 platform. The second reason is the availability of spares and consumables.

Hundreds (maybe even Thousands) of these aircraft have flown worldwide in dozens of countries. There's a robust supply chain and an assured grey market spare parts supply even with an embargo in place.

Add to that a decent radar, sonobuoys, and decent torpedoes...and you have a winner.

Did I forget to mention the crew comfort factor? Anyone would take a (relatively) wide-body high altitude jet 737 over a noisy high-vibration cramped turboprop.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 26 Jun 2018 22:51

Having said that, it does appear that the navy is committed to keeping it's IL-38's operational for a few more years - with cutting edge upgrades that too.

India's Il-38 Mpa To Receive Newly Developed Comint System

http://defencebuzz.org/2018/06/india-s-il-38-mpa-to-receive-newly-developed-comint-system-a3cfecfc-d3c3-4899-83eb-4b7fff43f653.html

India’s Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is seeking a vendor to perform “platform modification and installation” of the Sarvadhari communications intelligence (COMINT) system aboard the Indian navy’s IL-38 maritime patrol aircraft (MPA)...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 22:53

John wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Can you please show at least one picture of IL-38 with Brahmos? The IL-38 got the KH-35 just recently after being in service for many many years and I doubt if it will fly with Brahmos before retirement

I can speak about that it was shown off an CGI picture which later turned out to be complete PR ploy, the CGI picture also showed Mig-27,29,Tu-142 all carrying Brahmos, we know the former two are incapable of carrying Brahmos air launched variant.

As for IL-38 keep in mind IN wanted to base the maritime surveillance fleet around it originally we signed the upgrade contract on 2001 and rebuffed US original offer of P-3 orion. However the upgrade was badly badly botched by Russia, they never really sorted out specs and avionics properly (some blame at DRDO as well from what i recall) by the time the first plane was readied it almost took over 9 years and even then not everything was in. By this time IN got fed up and threatened to pull the money but a compromise was worked it (likely for political reasons) and IN decided to accept the upgraded IL-38. However further procurement plans were canned and even Tu-142 upg was postponed because of this. Boeing approached with P-8I and rest is history.


IIRC DRDO has had nothing to do with the Sea Dragon suite apart from providing the onboard ESM suite, and BEL likely provided the usual IN specific Link-2 datalink. All the rest of the items are Russian, the radar, optics, the mission suite & other tactical sensors.
Its been some seven years now, I would presume the IN has (mostly) fixed the avionics related issues?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 26 Jun 2018 23:02

funds permitting the ruN wanted to replace the IL38 with a variant of the Tu214 which is their most advanced civilian bird and closest to a max model 737.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 26 Jun 2018 23:09

Philip wrote:2 years ago the approval for 4 more P-8 Is was fixed at $1B. 12 more would cos us $3B. A P-3 Orion cost approx. $40M only and an IL-38 is in the same class.Assuming even if $40 to 50M was the cost of a modernised IL-38, and the latest upgrades have been deep, an IL-38 last year fired a KH'35 ASM and sank a ship in a naval EXERCISE for the first time, we would get 4 to 5 ILs for the price of just one P-8I.

That's my point.If we reduce the no. of P-8s to even 8 at $2 B, we could acquire another 12 IL-38s for just $500M.
This would give us approx.16 of each type a very good number .Remember that the IL-38 carries 20t of a variety of weapons including ASW and ASM weaponry and even BMos.Its sensors have a range of 320km for warships, 90km for airborne targets and a range of 9000km.


It's 20,000 pounds, not kg...you read Wikipedia wrong :rotfl:

And the no way does it have a 9000km range, certainly not with weapons payload.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 26 Jun 2018 23:12

Karan M wrote:
John wrote:I can speak about that it was shown off an CGI picture which later turned out to be complete PR ploy, the CGI picture also showed Mig-27,29,Tu-142 all carrying Brahmos, we know the former two are incapable of carrying Brahmos air launched variant.

As for IL-38 keep in mind IN wanted to base the maritime surveillance fleet around it originally we signed the upgrade contract on 2001 and rebuffed US original offer of P-3 orion. However the upgrade was badly badly botched by Russia, they never really sorted out specs and avionics properly (some blame at DRDO as well from what i recall) by the time the first plane was readied it almost took over 9 years and even then not everything was in. By this time IN got fed up and threatened to pull the money but a compromise was worked it (likely for political reasons) and IN decided to accept the upgraded IL-38. However further procurement plans were canned and even Tu-142 upg was postponed because of this. Boeing approached with P-8I and rest is history.


IIRC DRDO has had nothing to do with the Sea Dragon suite apart from providing the onboard ESM suite, and BEL likely provided the usual IN specific Link-2 datalink. All the rest of the items are Russian, the radar, optics, the mission suite & other tactical sensors.
Its been some seven years now, I would presume the IN has (mostly) fixed the avionics related issues?


I believe there were delays with ESM from DRDO I am recall from discussion a decade ago so my memory could be hazy.

As for Brahmos people forget A dozen of P-8I can make quick work out of Chinese fleet if they venture into Indian ocean when they are deployed in maritime strike role, they can carry 4 AGM-84L each and can fire the missiles them 250 km away (in low flight profile so enemy ships won't even be able to detect them till 20-30 km away) and scoot out of there safely. Granted i would still rather use the flankers since they are much more expendable.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 23:25

The actual performance of the system as versus "contract"

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Avia ... -Il38.html
A number of media outlets reported in September 2007 that the Indian Navy has suspended payments for the $150 million contract, as the Sea Dragon suite has not lived up to expectations. The system allegedly failed to discover a submarine that was at the target distance from it and thus the Indian Navy has asked for additional tests to be conducted before further payments and delivery of aircraft take place. Viktor Livanov, CEO of the Ilyushin Aircraft Construction Company, states that there is nothing wrong with the system or the aircraft and that the Indian Navy is putting forward more demands to the technical characteristics of the aircraft not stipulated in the contract. He noted, "All the functions of Sea Dragon were proven during live tests, but India continues to insist on further improvements. But that can't continue indefinitely." :roll: It remains to be seen how this issue will be resolved, as the Indian Navy desperately needs additional maritime surveillance platforms to monitor its long coastline.


On the plus side, the same sort of issues occurred with IN ship SAMs and the IN forced the Russians to fix them. There were issues with Klubs on the submarines as well - don't know whether that was fixed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 26 Jun 2018 23:34

titash wrote:Having said that, it does appear that the navy is committed to keeping it's IL-38's operational for a few more years - with cutting edge upgrades that too.

India's Il-38 Mpa To Receive Newly Developed Comint System

http://defencebuzz.org/2018/06/india-s-il-38-mpa-to-receive-newly-developed-comint-system-a3cfecfc-d3c3-4899-83eb-4b7fff43f653.html

India’s Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is seeking a vendor to perform “platform modification and installation” of the Sarvadhari communications intelligence (COMINT) system aboard the Indian navy’s IL-38 maritime patrol aircraft (MPA)...


Indian Navy will have to maintain IL-38 till the new MRMP arrive. As i understand the gov decided to develop a DRDO MRMP based on C-295 to be built in india, but since the private sector C-295 project has not moved forward for long time the New MRMPs are going to take some time

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2018 23:41

John wrote:I believe there were delays with ESM from DRDO I am recall from discussion a decade ago so my memory could be hazy.


Very possible, but it would be more interesting to see if the system worked. The suites on the IL-38, Tu-142, helicopters, Do-228 were all part of Project Sangraha. If my memory serves, the ones on the bigger platforms (ships, aircraft) and even the helicopters were ok. The ones on Do-228 were not as the airframe was too small to fit in extra antennae, so a new project was to be undertaken to redesign the ESM suite layout or add more antennae for better location fixing. Given IN is ordering more stuff from DLRL, it does seem basic issues were mostly resolved, as other wise like we have seen with other programs IN would have sought alternatives from Israel etc.

As for Brahmos people forget A dozen of P-8I can make quick work out of Chinese fleet if they venture into Indian ocean when they are deployed in maritime strike role, they can carry 4 AGM-84L each and can fire the missiles them 250 km away (in low flight profile so enemy ships won't even be able to detect them till 20-30 km away) and scoot out of there safely. Granted i would still rather use the flankers since they are much more expendable.


48 Harpoon strike, and if there are 24 P-8Is, 96 Harpoons. Our Jingo dreams. :D

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 27 Jun 2018 01:24

In brochures P-8 is listed as capable of carrying 6 AGM-84l but IN P-8I carry only 4 not sure if that is due to MAD?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jun 2018 01:59

John wrote: Granted i would still rather use the flankers since they are much more expendable.


Can you please explain what you mean by 'expendable'
Last edited by Kakarat on 27 Jun 2018 02:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 27 Jun 2018 02:12

Kakarat wrote:
John wrote: Granted i would still rather use the flankers since they are much more expendable.


Can you please explain what you mean by 'expandable'


John said expendable .... i.e happy to lose one of them instead of a P8I
you are saying expandable...

was that a typo ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jun 2018 02:15

Khalsa wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Can you please explain what you mean by 'expandable'


John said expendable .... i.e happy to lose one of them instead of a P8I
you are saying expandable...

was that a typo ?


Sorry my mistake

But the question remains
none of the Indian equipment can be considered expendable especially the ones with pilots in it
We are not US using drones which they might be considering expendable

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 27 Jun 2018 02:19

Kakarat wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Can you please explain what you mean by 'expendable'

War is about making calculated risks every mission you need to weigh risk vs reward. Less Risky is probably better word than expendable, Su-30mki is less riskier option than P-8I. Su-30mki cost a fraction of P-8I and you are talking about crew of 2 vs 9 with very low probability of escape in case of emergency shoot down.
Last edited by John on 27 Jun 2018 02:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 27 Jun 2018 02:21

Call it a better bang for buck fellas.
I don't think either of you are going to shed less tears for two IAF bodies vs 9 IN bodies.

For us Rakshaks, even when a Sepoy dies. its way too much.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jun 2018 02:22

John wrote:
Kakarat wrote:

Su-30mki cost a fraction of P-8I and you are talking about crew of 2 vs 9 with very low probability of escape in case of emergency shoot down.


Then why buy P8 and why not Su-30 MKI insted

none of the Indian equipment can be considered expendable especially the ones with pilots in it
We are not US using drones which they might be considering expendable

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 27 Jun 2018 02:24

Korea has chosen the P-8I
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-south ... KKBN1JL0V7

New Zealand is also thinking of going with 4 X P8I to replace 6 X P3C

The NZ example shows the workload capability of the P8 over P3.
I personally worked with a specialist in the NZ P3C. While he was full of praise for the aircraft.
He said that the days of Russian bear hunting were over. NZ now actively patrols its economic zone, assists in disasters and trains highly cooperatively with the Australians and USA. Plus they packed extra folks in the aircraft to manage shifts and workload.

They also have a common unspoken threat on the horizon.
China.

P8 is the platform of choice.
Just imagine the lack of stress the IN Ordinance Corps equivalent must be feeling for just the basic spare parts acquisition effort.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 27 Jun 2018 02:28

Kakarat wrote:
John wrote:Su-30mki cost a fraction of P-8I and you are talking about crew of 2 vs 9 with very low probability of escape in case of emergency shoot down.


Then why buy P8 and why not Su-30 MKI insted

none of the Indian equipment can be considered expendable especially the ones with pilots in it
We are not US using drones which they might be considering expendable

Su-30mki is not a ASW platform but when you need to perform maritime strike both platforms are capable of doing that. But choosing which one will come down to risk and situation. P-8i is better equipped to strike longer range (2000 km radius), Flankers would need tanker support and possibly better intelligence on enemy fleet ( P-8i gave better radar suite to detect enemy fleet). Perhaps even joint operation of P-8i and Flankers is a better option.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jun 2018 02:37

John wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Then why buy P8 and why not Su-30 MKI insted

none of the Indian equipment can be considered expendable especially the ones with pilots in it
We are not US using drones which they might be considering expendable

Su-30mki is not a ASW platform but when you need to perform maritime strike both platforms are capable of doing that. But choosing which one will come down to risk and situation. P-8i is better equipped to strike longer range (2000 km radius), Flankers would need tanker support and possibly better intelligence on enemy fleet ( P-8i gave better radar suite to detect enemy fleet). Perhaps even joint operation of P-8i and Flankers is a better option.


I do understand the capability of both the aircraft, I am not comfortable with the word expendable.

Su-30MKI is better for maritime strike especially with Brahmos and speed but we cannot expect a Su-30MKI escort for P-8I always

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 27 Jun 2018 04:10

The P8 Neptunes should be able to transmit targeting data to any Su MKI at stand-off ranges .. if IN and the IAF works together , those MKIs based in Andaman could become deadly to any hostile ship in the Indian ocean .. or the Indo China sea :mrgreen: .. imagine a hypersonic Brahmos appearing out of nowhere :((

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Jun 2018 07:08

The P-8Is had high rez SAR/ISAR modes removed. Our domestic radars should be able to do better if given resources (XV2004 showed pretty capable ISAR/SAR and there were plans to put it on the Tu-142). The strike capabilities have been heavily downgraded.
https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=115057&x=.

That counts against using these for long range strike..in a cluttered environment. I wouldn't be surprised if the existing ELTA radars on the Tu-142 were better. Thoughts?

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:
IIRC DRDO has had nothing to do with the Sea Dragon suite apart from providing the onboard ESM suite, and BEL likely provided the usual IN specific Link-2 datalink. All the rest of the items are Russian, the radar, optics, the mission suite & other tactical sensors.
Its been some seven years now, I would presume the IN has (mostly) fixed the avionics related issues?


I believe there were delays with ESM from DRDO I am recall from discussion a decade ago so my memory could be hazy.

As for Brahmos people forget A dozen of P-8I can make quick work out of Chinese fleet if they venture into Indian ocean when they are deployed in maritime strike role, they can carry 4 AGM-84L each and can fire the missiles them 250 km away (in low flight profile so enemy ships won't even be able to detect them till 20-30 km away) and scoot out of there safely. Granted i would still rather use the flankers since they are much more expendable.


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