Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Indranil »

I will leave out culture here.

What is the design by ignorance happening right now? They are reusing the ALH design to the hilt. If anything they are simplifying, e.g. the transmissions in LUH, IMRH. It is somewhat boring from that aspect if you leave aside the RUAVs.

I am a bit sad that they are not doing anything exciting like compound helicopters. But, then I don't know what you would have called them if they ventured so much into the unknown.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chetak »

Indranil wrote:I will leave out culture here.

What is the design by ignorance happening right now? They are reusing the ALH design to the hilt. If anything they are simplifying, e.g. the transmissions in LUH, IMRH. It is somewhat boring from that aspect if you leave aside the RUAVs.

I am a bit sad that they are not doing anything exciting like compound helicopters. But, then I don't know what you would have called them if they ventured so much into the unknown.
the design always had growth and development potential like any good far thinking design should.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by nam »

How easy or difficult is it to re-life the Mig21 Bison's?

Given the 2 front problem we are in and shortage of sqd numbers, IAF should consider re-lifing the bison to make it run at least till 2028, when the MK2 versions will be available.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Nam,2 decades ago,when the LCA was in its infancy, and the shortages became apparent,Shiv and I said that the best replacement for the MIG-21 was the .....MIG-21!
The IAF too decades earlier ago wished that they'd had more sqds. of Hunters, fast forward to the 21st century, wished more sqds. of M2Ks, requiring the long drawn-out drama of the MMRCA ending up a decade later in buying just 36 Rafales.

Many years ago I posted the account of a former Air Cmde. who was part of the IAF's evaluationof the LCA project when first touted Their conclusion was that it was too ambitious given the several advanced technologies that wasn't available in India,and that the project would be extensively delayed. The then chief was so alarmed by the findings of the team that the IAF decided to upgrade the last series on 21s built,the 21-Bis." Bison" these became,over 120 built which proved their worth in the first Cope- India exercises with the USAF allegedly scoring many " kills" of the then top weatern fighter the F-15. Had we built more Bis fighters or upgraded more legacy MIGs we would be in better shape numberswise.

Another missed opportunity was an SE light fighter baed upon the SU-27/30 offered to us for just $ 5M a pop by Ru during a visit to it by AM Masand. As the LCA programme had just begun this was not taken up seriously. It would've been a terrific cost- effective light fighter in concert with its larger brother the MKI. Dozens of mothballed MIG-29s too for a song after the fall of the USSR was another opportunity lost.

The IAF could've gone by the simple request for " more of the same", of types in service rather than wanting the latest flying "sports car" .These types could've been progressively upgraded and equipped with better sensors,radars, and newer missiles and ordnance keeping them relevant and up-to-date despite time going by. New types need to be perfected, put through their paces in service and their maintenance and support as seamless as possible. This has forced the IAF to upgrade alllegacy birds out of sheer neccessity.

However,I don't know how much life is left in the Bisons we have,the state of their airframes. The announcement of the green light for the 80+ Tejas 1As is v.v.welcome.We need large numbers of Tejas to replacd the legacy MIG-21/23/27s ,hundreds being retired other than the Bisons.However,even this fighter,the Mk-1A comes with limitations which TE med. and heavy fighters surpass.The acquisition of extra MIG-29s,MKIs and their upgrades is absolutely neccessary.The M2Ks unfortunately come with a $50 M unit upgrade costing even more than a brand new MIG-35! So we have to pursue the LCA/ Tejas manufacture with accelerated production so that in the era of 5th-gen. fighters and UCAVs, if equipped with the latest ASMs and AAMs, it remains a frontline fighter for this decade,well into the next at least.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by ramana »

Philip, In Godot terms the France's Panther is a turnip. Quite irrelevant.
I would also have called it a lizards tail.

The French offer shows they are not serious still.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by ramana »

chetak wrote:@Indranil ji

I may not always have been as diplomatic as I should have been but irrationally, I sometimes wish that more priority would have been given to what bothers the core of this forum in terms of infrastructure, budgets, human resources and intent.

If you perchance have some old contacts at RWRDC, from the time when the MBB design team was still around, and if you can coax them to talk freely, then you may get the Dhruv story.

mistakes made then and lessons not learned.

open forum, so no more.

Clausewitz wrote preparing for war is the task of the War Ministry and fighting the war that of generals.
Sadly after the C-i-C post was kicked upstairs to the President, Nehru chacha just destroyed the prepare for war task of the MoD.

All you mention fall into that bucket.
The task of the CDS is to prepare for War that Clausewitz wrote two centuries ago.

And just 12 months to the date CDS is the giving tree.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:
chetak wrote:@Indranil ji

I may not always have been as diplomatic as I should have been but irrationally, I sometimes wish that more priority would have been given to what bothers the core of this forum in terms of infrastructure, budgets, human resources and intent.

If you perchance have some old contacts at RWRDC, from the time when the MBB design team was still around, and if you can coax them to talk freely, then you may get the Dhruv story.

mistakes made then and lessons not learned.

open forum, so no more.

Clausewitz wrote preparing for war is the task of the War Ministry and fighting the war that of generals.
Sadly after the C-i-C post was kicked upstairs to the President, Nehru chacha just destroyed the prepare for war task of the MoD.

All you mention fall into that bucket.
The task of the CDS is to prepare for War that Clausewitz wrote two centuries ago.

And just 12 months to the date CDS is the giving tree.
Sir please bear with us. Sometime you are too cryptic...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Venky »

chetak wrote:
hnair wrote:Indeed, Indranil, cant believe we are discussing making an end-of-line helicopter, when same class exists in India and is evolving well into a world class product line.




After reading a few of your above posts, a friendly advise: you need to go easy on looking at Indian programs with that sort of derision when comparing with french tech, chetak-saar.
You guys may have the wrong end of the stick.

or even more likely, my choice of words may have contributed to the misunderstanding.

I have not advocated the purchase of any foreign aircraft or even the requirement make such proffered aircraft in India. All I said was examine the offer and leverage it to see if it benefits us to improve our production systems.

no one, least of all the french are going to offer cutting edge products to us. If at all, they will pass off almost end of life aircraft as current stuff.

And again, they are as virtuoso as the israelis in finding systemic loopholes, achilles heels and lynchpin babooze or brasshats with the wandering eye looking for the main chance and always combined with some ministerial machinations.

all I meant was upgrade the infrastructure and the production ecosystem which includes development of the supply chain, even if it required the help of the french or the amerikis, if such help were to be forthcoming.

In the course of my misspent life, I have worked some years with airbus and many years with french aircraft. My considered opinion of their quality and design excellence stands. the vikas story was told to me by some senior ISRO guys and it details the many struggles that ISRO and their local contractors went through because of active misdirection of the frenchies. ISRO finally got the hang of things after examining quite a few destroyed engines resulting from failed tests because of outrightly wrong or slyly incomplete documentation.

nothing ever came to ISRO on a platter. That's why I remain their loyal fan.

one thing I do agree wholeheartedly with you is about french food.

It's worse than terrible and vastly overrated.

and regarding PSUs, the IN always knew the factory blokes whose testimonials were to be singled out for the extra TLC. The flurry of inflated bills for work not done but charged handsomely dried up in a hurry. There were unofficial but detailed written instructions on how to deal with such financially creative artists and what to look for as telltales.

sadly, some bad taste still lingers.

BTW, there are very different design philosophies at play when dealing with russian and western origin equipment and their design objectives.

very few are actually aware that japan entered WWII with ships and planes that were technologically better than many of their opponents including those of allies like the germans and eyetalians.

During the initial years of the war with japan, the amerikis crapped their pants regularly because they could not match up to the japs both in skill of their crews and their superior weapon platforms

Russian design is also excellent and many a time more advanced than equivalent ameriki stuff. The inspired conceptual work that was evident in britshit designs of yore was also evident in russian system concepts and they have produced some exceptional aircraft and ships, and submarines now copied by many others.

Industrial production has always been influenced by a country's social mileu and the soundness of its basic education infrastructure. Higher education comes into its own for design only after the production foundation is able to translate drawings into parts with specified tolerances and do this repeatedly using different workers in different factories as and when required.

This is always assuming that the required raw materials are available or we will wind up with sad examples like the early chinese shenyang MiGs that had a total airframe life of roughly 150 hours because the hans simply could not figure out the complexities of the russki metallurgy when the hans painstakingly copied the stolen russki MiGs rivet by rivet.

In WWII, the amerikis were experts in mass producing ships, engines and planes in different factories and shipyards using identical drawings and turning them out in identical timeframes.

a feat that we would be hard pressed to duplicate in 2020, even for fairly simple products.

I work with many of these private guys on the shop floor helping them to improve the very things that I am complaining about.

We want our technology to succeed. Name calling a proposal doesn't resolve anything except revealing some biases. What we need are weapons/aircraft which can be used to advantage in sufficient numbers under a threat scenario or war. With all the Russian aircraft at hand whybus Mirage M2K the favourite IAF attack aircraft - bcos its battle worthy - and doesn't rest only on technical merits.

Let's achieve this proficiency
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

During in-house exercises according to AM Masand,the 29 beat the M2K every time in aerial combat when both were inducted.True,the M2K is a fine multi-role bird with superior avionics vs legacy 29s,but now with both birds upgraded,a similar exercise should be done for our own internal benefit.

The problem with French milware,v.good, is cost.Huge.We know the Rafale cost.Staggering.Almost $8 B for just 36 birds.Work out the maths yourselves for an av. unit cost.A new MIG-29UPG or 35 will not cost more than $50 M a pop.A SU-35 is available for around $60 M and the price of an SU-34 tactical bomber which we could've acquired/ built at home too is even less. The cost of upgrading all 54 M2Ks cost us $ 2.5B ,almost $ 50M unit cost and rven after this,HAL wanted more for labour ,a dispute with the IAF. What the status is on this,no official info.

Our DPSUs mothered for decades have to get lean and mean and the only way is desi private competition. Look at L&Ts excellent performance compared to Mazdock in warship delivery,ahead of schedule,while MD's orders for both subs and ships range from around 5 to 3 yrs. respectively.CSL's V-2 carrier is around 5 to 7 years delayed. LCA costs which originally were nearing that [f an MKI were beaten down substantiallyfor the Mk-1s. Desi costs cannot soar high abovd equiv. foreign equivs.The desi MKI was originally supposed to cost not more than $1M ,in a VAYU piece.It is now approx.$10+M, extra to an Ru built one, 70% of material localised .

Therefore,pvt. players should be allowed to build aircraft,a 3rd line for the LCA ,etc. , just as Tatas are going to build the C-295.This way competition will bring down costs and make it worthwhile and costeffective.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Philip wrote:..The desi MKI was originally supposed to cost not more than $1M ,in a VAYU piece.It is now approx.$10+M, extra to an Ru built one, 70% of material localised ..
Which would indicate that the precious rupiah stays within the tijori of Bharatmata rather than going out to the purse of Rodina, right?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Pratyush »

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWtYFT2a6I0[/youtube]

The link in the description is http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/archives/ ... g=jet-pack

Overall positive description of the circumstances of the IAF at present.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by rohitvats »

ramana wrote: Clausewitz wrote preparing for war is the task of the War Ministry and fighting the war that of generals.
Sadly after the C-i-C post was kicked upstairs to the President, Nehru chacha just destroyed the prepare for war task of the MoD.

All you mention fall into that bucket. The task of the CDS is to prepare for War that Clausewitz wrote two centuries ago. And just 12 months to the date CDS is the giving tree.
This is exactly what the Chinese have got correct. There is absolute synergy between the CCP's desired goals and how the armed forces are being structured, equipped and trained around them.

With respect to the army, their first priority has been re-equipment and restructuring. All happening in parallel. Equipment wise, they've equipped their Group Armies mostly with 2nd gen of Chinese designs derived off the Russians or other countries. And now, they are rolling out 3rd gen Chinese designs which are matching the western counterparts.

Sorry for the digression. But IMO, we tend to get so much into design aspect that we completely loose focus on the side of equipping the armed forces with suitable weapon at the earliest.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Vips »

chetak wrote:
Venky36 wrote:Didn't ISRO start with french sounding rockets in the fifties? We are playing catchup and there should be no false pride involved in leapfrogging
Sirji, where do you think that the ISRO's vikas engines came from :mrgreen:


And also the Shakti engines which now power a majority of our Helicopters :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

List of all operational squadrons of IAF--->
https://alphadefense.in/know-your-air-f ... squadrons/

Nice compilation
-
Current strength of IAF--->
12 Sqdns - Su30MKI
3 Sqdns - MIG29
3 Sqdns - Mirage 2000
6 Sqdns - Jaguars
7 Sqdns - MIG21 (6 Bisons & 1 Bis+M as confirmed by author in comments)
2 Sqdns - Tejas Mk1
1 Sqdn - Rafale

That is 34 squadrons, not including TACDE...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by ramana »

rohitvats wrote:
ramana wrote: Clausewitz wrote preparing for war is the task of the War Ministry and fighting the war that of generals.
Sadly after the C-i-C post was kicked upstairs to the President, Nehru chacha just destroyed the prepare for war task of the MoD.

All you mention fall into that bucket. The task of the CDS is to prepare for War that Clausewitz wrote two centuries ago. And just 12 months to the date CDS is the giving tree.
This is exactly what the Chinese have got correct. There is absolute synergy between the CCP's desired goals and how the armed forces are being structured, equipped and trained around them.

With respect to the army, their first priority has been re-equipment and restructuring. All happening in parallel. Equipment wise, they've equipped their Group Armies mostly with 2nd gen of Chinese designs derived off the Russians or other countries. And now, they are rolling out 3rd gen Chinese designs which are matching the western counterparts.

Sorry for the digression. But IMO, we tend to get so much into design aspect that we completely loose focus on the side of equipping the armed forces with suitable weapon at the earliest.
1971 war was perfect Clausewitzian war
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 56481?s=20 ---> IAF to further upgrade 59 MiG-29UPG currently it's fleet with more advanced EW/ECM suites, avionics and weapons. Another 12 Su-30 MKI will be ordered to replace the 9 lost in crashes in 20 years.

https://twitter.com/StratLogan/status/1 ... 68514?s=20 ---> The DRDO D29 EW suite I think.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

After Tejas, India moves ahead to procure more MiG-29s & Sukhois
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 320199.cms
18 Jan 2021
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 88837?s=20 --->

Indian Air Force aircraft induction from 2020 ... (only confirmed ones)

-36 Rafale
-24 Tejas Mk1 (16 FOC + 08 Trainer)
-73 Tejas Mk1A
-10 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainer
-12 Su-30MKI
- 21 MiG-29UPG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 28997?s=20 ---> Indian Air Force to upgrade it's fleet of 59 MiG-29UPG aircraft with EW/ECM suites, avionics and weapons. The 21 MiG-29s will come with AESA radar, IAF may upgrade it's current fleet of 59 MiG-29 with AESA.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 76452?s=20 ---> S-400 Pioneers are a GO for Moscow. Russian Federation Embassy in New Delhi hosted Indian Air Force personnel of the First S-400 Battery on the eve of their departure to Russia for further specialized training.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by hemant_sai »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 28997?s=20 ---> Indian Air Force to upgrade it's fleet of 59 MiG-29UPG aircraft with EW/ECM suites, avionics and weapons. The 21 MiG-29s will come with AESA radar, IAF may upgrade it's current fleet of 59 MiG-29 with AESA.
How hard it is to get GE engines on Indian Mig29s? Engine integartion won't be risky like Radar for russians? of course it sounds like loosing on money but if GE engines are going to give Migs acceptance in IAF - it is much beneficial for Russians than IAF willing to stay away from it.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Not going to happen. Not worth financially or politically.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Not going to happen. Not worth financially or politically.
But sirji it would be so cool don't you think?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

:lol:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by srai »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 88837?s=20 --->

Indian Air Force aircraft induction from 2020 ... (only confirmed ones)

-36 Rafale
-24 Tejas Mk1 (16 FOC + 08 Trainer)
-73 Tejas Mk1A
-10 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainer
-12 Su-30MKI
- 21 MiG-29UPG
9 new squadrons

Minus 6 Bison squadrons and 3 Jaguar squadrons by 2030, net zero gain/loss. Fleet stabilized at 30 squadrons with these orders.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Adm.,what AESA radar? An Ru AESA radar or the Elta 2052 same as the Tejas?,
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Philip wrote:Adm.,what AESA radar? An Ru AESA radar or the Elta 2052 same as the Tejas?,
Most probably desi Uttam
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

But upgrades of 29s have been going on for quite sometime,and the 2052 is slated for the 1As.Uttam would have to be superior or at least the cheaper equiv. If you thrown in upgrades of the 29Ks in a few years time ,one would have a combined total of around 135 29s requiring upgrades.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

I was talking about radar updates for the Su-30, for Mig-29's it will most probably be a Russian solution.

In other news a Hawk I has released a SAAW smart bomb, so PAF will have to more on guard for its jihadis uniformed or non uniformed.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by wig »

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 385067.cms

Hawk-i test fires smart anti-airfield weapon that can destroy enemy assets from 100km
excerpts
The indigenous stand-off weapon has been developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Research Centre Imarat (RCI). It is the first smart weapon fired from an Indian Hawk-Mk132.
The SAAW is an aircraft launched, advanced, precision strike weapon of 125kg category used to attack and destroy enemy airfield assets such as radars, bunkers, taxi tracks, runways within a range of 100 kms. SAAW has been earlier successfully test fired from Jaguar aircraft.
“HAL has been focusing on the Atmanirbhar Bharat campaign. The Company owned Hawk-i platform is being extensively used for certification of systems and weapons developed indigenously by DRDO and CSIR labs,” HAL CMD R Madhavan said
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by A Deshmukh »

Can slower Hawk-i be a better weapon carrier against smaller drones?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by maitya »

Aditya_V wrote:I was talking about radar updates for the Su-30, for Mig-29's it will most probably be a Russian solution.
ZHUK-AME FGA 50 is being marketed for MiG-35 ... so would be a good choice for the 29UPG further upgrades.

But trust Russia to ask for an arm-and-a-leg for them :shock: , and so MiG-29s will continue with the Zhuk-ME - or a 2052 derivative may get used instead (as Uttam's focus will be squarely on MK1A integration, and maybe later for Mk1 MLUs).
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by sajaym »

wig wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 385067.cms

Hawk-i test fires smart anti-airfield weapon that can destroy enemy assets from 100km
...With this weapon, China deploying it's aircraft to Paki airbases becomes a very stupid idea.

Also, weaponising the Hawks gives us 3-4 extra squadrons (IAF + IN Hawks) in a 2 front war, specifically for CAS leaving the heavy hitters like Raffys, M2K, SUs, 29s free for other missions.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 92576?s=20 ---> SAAW is a long range stand-off weapon that has been integrated to the Jaguar fighter. It is guided by INS+ GPS. A variant with an Electro-Optical seeker for greater accuracy is under development.

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Indranil »

A Deshmukh wrote:Can slower Hawk-i be a better weapon carrier against smaller drones?
I am really looking forward to integration of SANT on Hawks. With their slower speeds and low operational cost, they can be a way better anti tank aircraft than any other fixed wing in IAF service.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin ,
Sorry overlooked your post. What did you find cryptic?
Will answer if I know.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Kartik »

IAF Rafale, Mirage-2000 and Su-30MKI and French Rafale fighters during Exercise Desert Knight 2021

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by nits »

^ looks like the big brother ( sukhoi) taking small brothers on a tour and saying i will show u hows its done ;)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Kartik »

Those 3 are amongst the most beautiful fighter jets of all time. 2 from Dassault's stables.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Manish_P »

nits wrote:^ looks like the big brother ( sukhoi) taking small brothers on a tour and saying i will show u hows its done ;)
Not really, Nits ji. Chotta bhai Mirage has equal bragging rights post Balakot :)
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