Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Jan 2021 10:24

Welcome v_raman! It’s got something to do with corruption and colonial past.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Jan 2021 15:06

Does anyone have news regarding the proposed DRDO/HAL Super Sukhoi upgrades ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Jan 2021 20:35

kit wrote:Does anyone have news regarding the proposed DRDO/HAL Super Sukhoi upgrades ?

wig · Post by **wig** » 09 Jan 2021 23:08

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 21676.html

India and France have decided to intensify defence cooperation with Paris offering to shift 100 per cent assembly line for Panther medium utility helicopters as well as 70 per cent of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under “Make in India” rubric with full transfer of technology, people familiar with the matter said on Saturday.

further

Officials said there was a real possibility that India, which has a contract for 36 omni-role fighters, could buy more Rafale jets in light of the French offer to bring 70 per cent of the assembly line including local vendor development. This would reduce the cost of subsequent acquisition of the fighter jets.

The French offer to make the Panther choppers in India also works well with the government which has been looking to buy medium helicopters for the Indian Navy. The Airbus’ AS565 MBe is an all-weather, multi-role medium helicopter designed for operation from ship decks, offshore locations and land-based sites.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Jan 2021 23:11

wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 21676.html

India and France have decided to intensify defence cooperation with Paris offering to shift 100 per cent assembly line for Panther medium utility helicopters as well as 70 per cent of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under “Make in India” rubric with full transfer of technology, people familiar with the matter said on Saturday.

dont think India needs a panther, another batch of Rafales maybe

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Jan 2021 01:02

India cannot buy friends! Need to look for interest alignment. You cannot kill domestic industry because a 3rd rate power wants to sell their friendship!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jan 2021 11:51

IDRW reports that apart from the 80+1As to be finalised this week, another 170+ Mk-2 Tejas fighters are required by the IAF.The first prototypes will arrive in '22/'23,and by 2026 or so production to start using idle Mk-1A lines.

There is another open req. for 124 AMCAs whose development is being accelerated to also arrive around 2026! Now we know that a v.serious fund crunch is with us, therefore can we really afford two lines of aircraft? The Mk-2 at best will be a 4th-gen+ bird,of which we already have 3 types ( M2Ks,MIG-29s and Rafales,with upgraded Jaguars) ,and the real req. should be that of a 5th.-gen. bird. One or a combo of them could suffice

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Jan 2021 15:59

Philip wrote:IDRW reports that apart from the 80+1As to be finalised this week, another 170+ Mk-2 Tejas fighters are required by the IAF.The first prototypes will arrive in '22/'23,and by 2026 or so production to start using idle Mk-1A lines.

Marshal., look at the bright side., at least we are talking only about Tejas and its variants

..not Eurofighter F21 Gripen etc

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 10 Jan 2021 16:15

Vivek K wrote:India cannot buy friends! Need to look for interest alignment. You cannot kill domestic industry because a 3rd rate power wants to sell their friendship!

Thats unfair. As mercantile as France has been (nothing wrong in that per se), they are much more of a trustworthy and principled ally to India since many years now, and in many ways beyond mil equipment. And they don't crow about it, neither do we.

It would be nice if posters are able to go beyond twitter reflex on BRF.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Jan 2021 21:25

You miss the point entirely - the alignment with other Nations should not be based on who will sell us new screwdrivers but on a shared worldview. Killing off Indian industry every time someone wants to sell another screwdriver to us will keep the masses poor and low tech.

India needs to approach future alliances from a position of strength. We’re at the cusp of technology in every field. So alliances must be formed based on current and future threat perceptions and a vision to grow Indian influence.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 10 Jan 2021 21:30

The Kashmir issue in UNGA ...to some extent requires us to pay jaziya to france, USSR, USA IMHO to keep china nee Pakistan at bay? No doubt French maal is super good but so are the prices. We are not self sufficient in many aspects of def technology and require their equipment. Which country would not like to have India as a customer ..hard cash in advance.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Jan 2021 22:22

And really how much hard cash does India have? With the struggles to fund our own industry - which is at the cusp of technology, if the limited funding is diverted to ridiculously expensive imports - several local programs will suffer delays and ultimately die off.

Invest in yourself rather than throw money on developing other nations' industries. Kashmir has been with the UN since 1947. China has been in occupation of Tibet for as long - they don't seem to be worried. They've invested in themselves and built up their industry. We can beat them at their own game.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jan 2021 23:56

Kit,no problem with that! I would however prefer larger nos. of the Mk-1A and its SE variants than 4th-gen.TE Mk-2 which will be inferior to the 5th-gen.AMCA appearing at around the same time. It will cost the IAF less too,cheaper Mk-1A SE variants than TE Mk-2s. Secondly, the advent of drone warfare has changed the scenario completely.No loss of pilot, killed or captured,swarm attacks will be the order of the day,some in concert with manned aircraft, with many being kamikaze drones like Harop,etc. The IA is talking of using heavy transports as carriers to launch drone swarms. As former USN CNO Adm.Greenert famously said a few years ago," you don't need a sports car when a bomb truck will do!"

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 11 Jan 2021 01:56

Vivek K wrote:And really how much hard cash does India have? With the struggles to fund our own industry - which is at the cusp of technology, if the limited funding is diverted to ridiculously expensive imports - several local programs will suffer delays and ultimately die off.

Invest in yourself rather than throw money on developing other nations' industries. Kashmir has been with the UN since 1947. China has been in occupation of Tibet for as long - they don't seem to be worried. They've invested in themselves and built up their industry. We can beat them at their own game.

we are not stressed for money and no matter how much money we invest in our own technology it is not going to save us from Global blackmail viv-a-vis Kashmir. Comparison with China on Tibet is not equal as china had a veto to protect and full-proof itself.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 11 Jan 2021 02:10

Philip wrote:IDRW reports that apart from the 80+1As to be finalised this week, another 170+ Mk-2 Tejas fighters are required by the IAF.The first prototypes will arrive in '22/'23,and by 2026 or so production to start using idle Mk-1A lines.

There is another open req. for 124 AMCAs whose development is being accelerated to also arrive around 2026! Now we know that a v.serious fund crunch is with us, therefore can we really afford two lines of aircraft? The Mk-2 at best will be a 4th-gen+ bird,of which we already have 3 types ( M2Ks,MIG-29s and Rafales,with upgraded Jaguars) ,and the real req. should be that of a 5th.-gen. bird. One or a combo of them could suffice

Mk1 and 1A are literally replacement for MIG21s...
Mk2 is same class as Mirage 2k and is replacement for MIG29s, M2ks and older Jaguars...

Mk1A has limitations in terms of range and payload compared to these jets (though it is superior technologically)...
AMCA will be ideal for replacing Su30s...
IAF need Single Engine jets for atleast 1/3rd of its fleet...
Si, Tejas Mk2 is ideal replacement...
----
Anyways, AMCA won't be ready for production by 2026... They are targeting a production date of 2032 and it may well take a couple of years more...

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jan 2021 02:15

Vips wrote:we are not stressed for money and no matter how much money we invest in our own technology it is not going to save us from Global blackmail viv-a-vis Kashmir.

Really? Speechless! So the entire Indian defense posture is only to save Kashmir?

Comparison with China on Tibet is not equal as china had a veto to protect and full-proof itself.

So what will the world do? Lets say they come out and say that Pak must get Kashmir, what then? Is India done?

titash · Post by **titash** » 11 Jan 2021 03:02

Vivek K wrote:
Vips wrote:we are not stressed for money and no matter how much money we invest in our own technology it is not going to save us from Global blackmail viv-a-vis Kashmir.
Really? Speechless! So the entire Indian defense posture is only to save Kashmir?

Comparison with China on Tibet is not equal as china had a veto to protect and full-proof itself.
So what will the world do? Lets say they come out and say that Pak must get Kashmir, what then? Is India done?

India represents 1/6 th of humanity, and is the home of the world's oldest and 3rd largest religion. And it has nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons with which to defend itself if threatened.

The UN was constituted because the League of Nations was unable to prevent armed conflict. The current UN will fail as well if it can't prevent armed conflict. Then a new world order will be born with the victors as the new PX members of the new world body.

How many countries, OIC & non-OIC, are willing to commit troops and GDP resources to help transfer Kashmiri land from India to Pakistan? That is the only thing that matters, irrespective of UNSC resolutions.

If nobody has the ba**s to take on the North Koreans, I guarantee you no one is signing up to take Kashmir away from India by force. This is the reason why Homi Bhabha, Raja Ramanna, Rajagopala Chidambaram, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam have their Padma Bhushans, Vibhushans, and Bharat Ratnas

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 11 Jan 2021 03:25

Vivek K wrote: Really? Speechless! So the entire Indian defense posture is only to save Kashmir?

Any why not. If you cannot give it your all to save what you say is your 'Atut ang' then what is your Defence posture or your armed forces for- To march down the Rajpath every 26th Janurary?

Vivek K wrote:So what will the world do? Lets say they come out and say that Pak must get Kashmir, what then? Is India done?

It is not just the military aspect. My point above of Global blackmail was with respect to the Economy. Is India really sanction-proof if the G5 get together(hypothetical scenario)? With dependency for POL products at 88% we will be on our knees in 30-40 days after exhausting our strategic reserves. Then you think whether India is done or not. Fact is without having the Veto or paying Jiziya we are vulnerable.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 11 Jan 2021 04:32

If we keep paying "Jiziya" for veto, we'll be vulnerable too. What if (hypothetical scenario) P5 decide that the current Jiziya is not enough and goad china to attack us. And then what if the US, France and Russia get together and send in their catobars and boreis to ensure we can't use any of our zoo of equipment against the chinese? We'll be on our knees in 1 day.

The "what if" scenarios are infinite and Agni-5 and smiling buddha (our own equipment) ensure why we shouldn't have to worry about them.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Jan 2021 13:57

सोमवार, सुरक्षित, सत्यनिष्ठा

दूरदर्शी ...आक्रमक....त्वरित
भारतीय वायुसेना....सदैव प्रस्तुत

#भारतीय_वायुसेना

Nice. Been waiting for something like this.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 11 Jan 2021 19:02

titash wrote:
India represents 1/6 th of humanity, and is the home of the world's oldest and 3rd largest religion. And it has nuclear, ~~chemical, and biological weapons~~ with which to defend itself if threatened.

india does not have chemical and biological weapons. This the GOI position. India destroyed her stocks sometime in past.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jan 2021 21:18

Vivek K wrote:India cannot buy friends! Need to look for interest alignment. You cannot kill domestic industry because a 3rd rate power wants to sell their friendship!

they make among the best weapon systems in the world including ships, submarines and aircraft. They have a superb space program that is very profitably commercialized.

their stuff is very very good, design wise, quality wise and utility wise and also very very expensive.

I wish India was a 3rd rate power too

maybe we should take them up on their offer and leverage our own industries to try and catch up with them.

is there anything in their proposal stopping us from doing that, upgrading our production and design facilities using French technology.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jan 2021 21:48

Self deleted - Let's keep buying French! Sorry to have interrupted proceedings.

Venky · Post by **Venky** » 11 Jan 2021 22:05

Didn't ISRO start with french sounding rockets in the fifties? We are playing catchup and there should be no false pride involved in leapfrogging

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jan 2021 22:11

Venky36 wrote:Didn't ISRO start with french sounding rockets in the fifties? We are playing catchup and there should be no false pride involved in leapfrogging

Is ISRO still using French rockets? Or has it learnt and developed its own tech? The IAF started with British and French fighters including Jaguars (Anglo French Development). What do you recommend - keep buying French forever?

Buying Indian - which we've never really done in any large magnitude and duration, I agree is false pride. We should be importing.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 11 Jan 2021 22:12

jamwal wrote: Nice. Been waiting for something like this.

looks charming on ground and menacing in air!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Jan 2021 22:24

Great photograph kamaal! Thanks.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jan 2021 23:03

Vivek K wrote:Self deleted - Let's keep buying French! Sorry to have interrupted proceedings.

If they are offering, let's see how we could leverage it to benefit us.

If there is a case for us to benefit, let's use it.

If not, let's smile, say thanks and move on.

It's no one's argument that we stop all our own production work and surrender completely to the french.

The amerikis offered just about the same thing; to move some ameriki assembly lines to India. We have not moved on that offer.

It appears that we are happy with our antiquated production facilities, complete with unionized, politicised, unskilled and lackadaisical workers being paid full over time for sitting around in their striped undies, listlessly supervised by disinterested sarkari management.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jan 2021 23:07

Venky36 wrote:Didn't ISRO start with french sounding rockets in the fifties? We are playing catchup and there should be no false pride involved in leapfrogging

Sirji, where do you think that the ISRO's vikas engines came from

titash · Post by **titash** » 12 Jan 2021 00:10

ArjunPandit wrote:
titash wrote:
India represents 1/6 th of humanity, and is the home of the world's oldest and 3rd largest religion. And it has nuclear, ~~chemical, and biological weapons~~ with which to defend itself if threatened.
india does not have chemical and biological weapons. This the GOI position. India destroyed her stocks sometime in past.

Yes, agreed on official position.

But any physical invader should read between the lines and reflect. If you currently make insecticide for agriculture, and have made large quantities of Sulphur Mustard in the past with in-house expertise, then all bets are off. Likewise on biological weapons - any COVID vaccine R&D / Manufacturing country has in-house capabilities, irrespective of whether they exploit it or not.

No one, P5 or otherwise, is signing up to physically expel a united India from Kashmir. The trick is to continually attack that unity, which is what the BIFs are all about.

titash · Post by **titash** » 12 Jan 2021 00:12

chetak wrote:
Venky36 wrote:Didn't ISRO start with french sounding rockets in the fifties? We are playing catchup and there should be no false pride involved in leapfrogging
Sirji, where do you think that the ISRO's vikas engines came from

I thought it was a quid pro quo. We send scientists (as labor) to work in France on that project, and the French give us the engine in return

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2021 00:15

titash wrote:
chetak wrote:
Sirji, where do you think that the ISRO's vikas engines came from
I thought it was a quid pro quo. We send scientists (as labor) to work in France on that project, and the French give us the engine in return

first I'm hearing of it.

any more details, saar.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2021 00:51

It's a pity to come here and find a discussion on how the Panther is a potentially good buy for India! Today?! Seriously?

Imagine a news article in France: France considering to buy Dhruvs MKIII. The French will laugh at it. The reverse is not true in India.

And by the way, Dhruv is WAY more technologically advanced!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Jan 2021 01:11

Indeed, Indranil, cant believe we are discussing making an end-of-line helicopter, when same class exists in India and is evolving well into a world class product line.

chetak wrote:
titash wrote:
I thought it was a quid pro quo. We send scientists (as labor) to work in France on that project, and the French give us the engine in return

first I'm hearing of it.

any more details, saar.

After reading a few of your above posts, a friendly advise: you need to go easy on looking at Indian programs with that sort of derision when comparing with french tech, chetak-saar. While in service, you might have bad experiences in past due to immature PSU leading complex projects, but the turning point has been reached and we should show more faith in how our taxes are spent

Do consider this as a personal request.

Much as I like France and most of their products or culture, the french does produce terrible products, including some of their cuisine, cheese, movies and certainly weapons (chauchat being the most giggled at mass produced weapon in history).

Coming back to your question, the Vikas project staff was based out of Vernon and contributed significantly to the IP of european hypergolic and earth-storable engine programs during their stay there. The french never admit publicly nowadays, but in the '80s, the staff was considered as a joint R&D program between ISRO and CNES. You might have to dig up old Flight or Space magazines to get firsthand articles of those era, if you dont trust old ISRO publications.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Jan 2021 01:12

wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 21676.html

India and France have decided to intensify defence cooperation with Paris offering to shift 100 per cent assembly line for Panther medium utility helicopters as well as 70 per cent of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under “Make in India” rubric with full transfer of technology, people familiar with the matter said on Saturday.
further
Officials said there was a real possibility that India, which has a contract for 36 omni-role fighters, could buy more Rafale jets in light of the French offer to bring 70 per cent of the assembly line including local vendor development. This would reduce the cost of subsequent acquisition of the fighter jets.

The French offer to make the Panther choppers in India also works well with the government which has been looking to buy medium helicopters for the Indian Navy. The Airbus’ AS565 MBe is an all-weather, multi-role medium helicopter designed for operation from ship decks, offshore locations and land-based sites.

Panther has 4300 KGS MTOW, whereas Dhruv is somewhere between 5000/6000 kgs MTOW. Who wants this rubbish? The tail folding was shown a few weeks back and auto-folding is in the works. IN better get onboard or wait forever for anything useful.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2021 02:36

hnair wrote:Indeed, Indranil, cant believe we are discussing making an end-of-line helicopter, when same class exists in India and is evolving well into a world class product line.

chetak wrote:

first I'm hearing of it.

any more details, saar.
After reading a few of your above posts, a friendly advise: you need to go easy on looking at Indian programs with that sort of derision when comparing with french tech, chetak-saar.

You guys may have the wrong end of the stick.

or even more likely, my choice of words may have contributed to the misunderstanding.

I have not advocated the purchase of any foreign aircraft or even the requirement make such proffered aircraft in India. All I said was examine the offer and leverage it to see if it benefits us to improve our production systems.

no one, least of all the french are going to offer cutting edge products to us. If at all, they will pass off almost end of life aircraft as current stuff.

And again, they are as virtuoso as the israelis in finding systemic loopholes, achilles heels and lynchpin babooze or brasshats with the wandering eye looking for the main chance and always combined with some ministerial machinations.

all I meant was upgrade the infrastructure and the production ecosystem which includes development of the supply chain, even if it required the help of the french or the amerikis, if such help were to be forthcoming.

In the course of my misspent life, I have worked some years with airbus and many years with french aircraft. My considered opinion of their quality and design excellence stands. the vikas story was told to me by some senior ISRO guys and it details the many struggles that ISRO and their local contractors went through because of active misdirection of the frenchies. ISRO finally got the hang of things after examining quite a few destroyed engines resulting from failed tests because of outrightly wrong or slyly incomplete documentation.

nothing ever came to ISRO on a platter. That's why I remain their loyal fan.

one thing I do agree wholeheartedly with you is about french food.

It's worse than terrible and vastly overrated.

and regarding PSUs, the IN always knew the factory blokes whose testimonials were to be singled out for the extra TLC. The flurry of inflated bills for work not done but charged handsomely dried up in a hurry. There were unofficial but detailed written instructions on how to deal with such financially creative artists and what to look for as telltales.

sadly, some bad taste still lingers.

BTW, there are very different design philosophies at play when dealing with russian and western origin equipment and their design objectives.

very few are actually aware that japan entered WWII with ships and planes that were technologically better than many of their opponents including those of allies like the germans and eyetalians.

During the initial years of the war with japan, the amerikis crapped their pants regularly because they could not match up to the japs both in skill of their crews and their superior weapon platforms

Russian design is also excellent and many a time more advanced than equivalent ameriki stuff. The inspired conceptual work that was evident in britshit designs of yore was also evident in russian system concepts and they have produced some exceptional aircraft and ships, and submarines now copied by many others.

Industrial production has always been influenced by a country's social mileu and the soundness of its basic education infrastructure. Higher education comes into its own for design only after the production foundation is able to translate drawings into parts with specified tolerances and do this repeatedly using different workers in different factories as and when required.

This is always assuming that the required raw materials are available or we will wind up with sad examples like the early chinese shenyang MiGs that had a total airframe life of roughly 150 hours because the hans simply could not figure out the complexities of the russki metallurgy when the hans painstakingly copied the stolen russki MiGs rivet by rivet.

In WWII, the amerikis were experts in mass producing ships, engines and planes in different factories and shipyards using identical drawings and turning them out in identical timeframes.

a feat that we would be hard pressed to duplicate in 2020, even for fairly simple products.

I work with many of these private guys on the shop floor helping them to improve the very things that I am complaining about.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2021 04:00

Chetak ji,

One thing that I can say for sure is that you are a valued member here. I assign weightage to your posts and that's why they matter to me.

The problems with Dhruv have taken 20 years to lick. They are still licking it. But the knowhow that they have gained for designing, for building is VERY VERY IMPORTANT to maintain. Please make no mistake Dhruv is not just a worldclass product, but a world beating product in many respects. The Panther is way more contemporary in that respect. A very mundane rotorcraft. The French are trying to make virtue out trying to make the last possible profits on a production line that they are to retire pretty soon.

I can't open my mouth much, but you will very proud of the products that will come out of the rotary wing division of HAL in the next decade. To start with if raghuk's team delivers the goods, you will have the capability of a cheetah in a 200 kg RUAV. And that's just the start. Let me leave the rest to your imagination. This is the time to consolidate around this knowhow rather than getting distracted by yet another license production.

And just so you know I vehemently protest the license production of Ka-226. The fact that it comes from HAL makes me oppose it even more. I have been doing so for a decade now.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2021 04:08

@Indranil ji

I may not always have been as diplomatic as I should have been but irrationally, I sometimes wish that more priority would have been given to what bothers the core of this forum in terms of infrastructure, budgets, human resources and intent.

If you perchance have some old contacts at RWRDC, from the time when the MBB design team was still around, and if you can coax them to talk freely, then you may get the Dhruv story.

mistakes made then and lessons not learned.

open forum, so no more.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2021 05:08

Be rest assured sirjee I have had the good fortune of talking to a few.

But lessons not learned? Are speaking of design or culture?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2021 05:26

Indranil wrote:Be rest assured sirjee I have had the good fortune of talking to a few.

But lessons not learned? Are speaking of design or culture?

sadly saar,

design by ignorance and culture by default