Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 04 May 2017 01:08

^^^
Some quick remarks I’d like to offer WRT the current NoKo situation:

1. THAAD in SoKo isn’t going to do anything against NoKo artillery, which is deeply dug-into rocky mountainsides. Thousands of cheap, incoming arty and rocketry rounds from NoKo imperils the comparatively small and expensive quiver of THAAD interceptors. To be specific: There are big artillery pieces emplaced underneath 20+ meters of granite, and they fire through concrete-reinforced tubes no wider than 1 meter, all of which are hidden under trees and bushes. Given the CEP of the available weapons, and the forested and rocky terrain, these aren’t going to be easy for Khan to knock-out. Sure, after weeks of bombing, Khan could do it, if Khan is willing to exhaust the inventory of LGBs and such (which is unlikely at this time). But in the meantime, NoKo will flatten SoKo, causing a global economic shock and making DT a one-term president. No nuke nor any of fifty missions of every B-52 in service would do the job suggested by the prospect of a Khan attack on NoKo. NoKo’s conventional arty and small rocketry can imperil the vast bulk of SoKo’s economic base, if not their population. NoKo doesn’t need nuclear weapons to destroy SoKo economically, if not militarily. THAAD isn’t really anything more than a gesture of support from Uncle. Same with a sub parked dockside while the crew rests ashore.

2. RE: The 1350 US Marines going to Australia was something that was announced long, long ago (at least six months, if my memory serves, and was tied-together with Obama’s promise to resettle “boat people” held by Australia on the Island of Nauru). It is in no way any kind of anti-NoKo build-up. Look at a map and consider the distance between Australia and NoKo, and you’ll also see there are already other US Marines closer to NoKo than the ones in Australia. Part of the motivation for Australia hosting them there is for assistance with stemming the people-smuggling, as well as concerns for piracy. On a more practical level, the Marines are probably there in support of a new elint base. Given the situation, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was an ASW motivation behind it all, since it’s always nice to have long antennae near the ocean for UULF comms with one’s own subs.

3. One must tally the domestic constituencies to understand how the Khans go to war. For sure, there are those who build and sell weapons, and who profit from the effort and the aftermath alike; and these sorts are always gung ho for any military misadventure. But this is only one constituency, and it takes more than one constituency with aligned interests, to get anything major done. Given my analysis of the DT WH, WRT the NoKo situation: Critically at this juncture, there is no Israeli interest in a war against NoKo. Since a war with NoKo could distract Amreekha from an impending war on Iran and/or deeper involvement in Syria and/or Iraq and/or Libya, etc.. A US first strike on NoKo is virtually unimaginable. (Additional to this, the SoKo’s won’t have it, either.)

4. RE: The spate of failed NoKo missile tests: Have we all considered that any kind of self-destruct signal sent by Khan would probably be detectable by the NoKos? More than that, would not the missile emit a code in the telemetry data stream that would’ve indicated “SELF-DESTRUCT MESSAGE RECEIVED”? For this reason, I doubt there was an American hand in the recent NoKo missile test failures (at least not the way some Khans and some Rakshaks’ve suggested). More likely it was one or some of another million possibilities for failure of a shoddy rocket during initial boost phase. To be specific: This is when the missile is heaviest and at max thrust, as it still has plenty of fuel and is trying to overcome inertia with momentum using acceleration, which produces enormous vibration/tension/torsion on all parts of the missile.

<OT>
This is also why it is such a robust demonstration of capability, when India puts its Agnis through corkscrew rolls right after launch, beautifully controlled in one direction and than the other, while following the same overall trajectory perfectly. This shows clearly how robust is the Angi design and build, that it can maneuver so perfectly during initial boost phase. By comparison, NoKo missiles are lofted into the air largely on the prayers of atheists’!
</OT>

5. Understand the American political timing for these kinds of things: Critically, the Khans have a saying that originated in Westerns (movies) where the wisdom dictates that “You don’t change horses in mid-stream”. This is cultural code for “When America is at War, the incumbent first-term president automatically gets another four years to gloriously finish what he started.” This was the oft-repeated rationale to re-elect GWB even after “his” disastrous invasion of Iraq. According to this rationale, a first-term POTUS would prefer to have his major military operation still “on the upswing” by the time voters are returning to the polls (i.e. before too many coffins return home). This means: If said war is started too early during a presidency, voters may become too war-weary in time to re-elect the sitting POTUS. With political affaires, timing is everything. Given the American habit of amassing forces prior to attack, and the time this typically takes: America has no intention of militarily attacking NoKo anytime before the second year of the Trump presidency. (If DT faces impeachment proceedings or unseating proceedings under Article #25; he will pick a fight with whoever will serve as a distraction to “stay the proceedings” during an emergency or whatever.) THEREFORE: Now is too soon for Khan’s bombs to start falling on NoKo, for political reasons alone. (For Pete’s sakes: We’ve just passed the 100 days mark!)

6. I agree with the other Rakshaks who’ve remarked: The real point of all this is just to distract the American public from the Trump-Russia Investigations (that is supposedly ongoing). Everyone seems in suspended apprehension of the next pronouncements from FBI’s Jim Comey, which came just today and from what I heard, don’t push the public’s awareness of things very much further along at all. (US Congress and Senate seem to also be in same suspended apprehension, because they’ve not been issuing subpoenas, making inquiries, etc.) For the time being, this current level of rhona dhona seems sufficient to do the job of distracting the public from Russian election meddling. If Trump seems more and more likely to be impeached; he may even pick a fight with mine own Canada, if it distracts the American public from what he doesn’t want anyone to find out.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2017 02:37

Interesting about the Guns Of Navarone type artillery. That indicates that a few tactical nukes may be the only way other than surrender through starvation by cutting supplies. Or even a few medium-sized nukes to fill all the valleys with blast waves. To do this, US should be expected to try and induce a NoKo first strike attempt - either at the CONUS, or at the Carrier Group.

Why is it not in a POTUS' interest, given your view that this is all induced to distract attention from FBI probes, to let Seoul be devastated? Once they are done devastating Seoul, what good is the artillery? Seems like NoKo is then up for grabs, and the POTUS can declare victory, SoKo competition is out for a decade, probably China's world standing is also down the tubes, So it is win-win for American Imperialism, hey?

Regarding the "this is all to distract from FBI" line: If one follows each of the trails: (1) Carrier deployment (2) SCS antics (3) THAAD (4) NoKO missile tests (5) B-1 flights, (6) Minuteman tests, each was planned during BO tenure. So these were all planned to distract from FBI probe of ... presumed POTUS HiC, then? Interesting.

In fact I am hard put to find a single item of American initiative here that was planned after Trump came to power - except of course the DTweets and Mar Largo dinners.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 04 May 2017 03:02

^^^^^^^

SoKo isn't going to green-light a tactical nuclear first strike. It isn't going to happen; largely because nobody wants any sized nuke going off anywhere near them -- especially their homeland.

If I'm not mistaken: DT has ruffled a lot of SoKo feathers by asking for $1B payment for the THAAD. This coming Tuesday, SoKo gets a new head of state, a gentleman named Moon. He has said things publicly about how a SoKo finger should be on the trigger of THAAD, and right now that's not the case. If this cannot be worked-out, expect Moon to have THAAD removed from SoKo soil. Remember, this is costing significant sums of lost revenue due to hollowed-out demand from lock-step Chinese (who are currently boycotting all things South Korean).

As for why not have Seoul be devastated, so much the better as a distraction off of Trump-Russia ties: The fact is that a NoKo devastation of SoKo would have a terrible ripple effect on the world economy, and it is hard to see American companies picking-up that slack, or otherwise participating in any attendant reconstruction, etc. There is no upside, for America, of a devastated SoKo economy.

Regarding NoKo being "up for grabs", well, Russia isn't the only one who favours having a "buffer state" between it and the Rich Capitalists. China too wants to maintain NoKo as their own "buffer state" between themselves and those rich, capitalists democrats in SoKo.

Lastly: Don't confuse what I said: The 1350 Marines for Australia, that was planned during the BO presidency. Whatever else might or might not have been, I cannot say.

JMT.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 03:12

UB, Was listening to a Commonwealth Club, California chapter talk yesterday. One question was what to make of NoKo.
The answer by a conservative talking head. Quite famous actually.

He said Kim Young Un father was smart to get a nuke. So nothing big will happen.
Secondly need lots of precision to take out all that NoKo artillery.
Thirdly pointed out new SoKo govt is pro unification.
Fourthly China worst nightmare is Korean unification.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2017 04:52

Well... then the POTUS can REALLY set the fox among the chickens with a simple declaration:
@RealDonaldTrump: Americans want Korea to be united. So good. Divided Korea. Bad!

The fun should start then. Ramana, since you are on tweety terms with The Tweeter, could u pls pass that on? Backed by the super in-depth research that SRR/BRM were so famous for.

Speaking of in-depth research: Now someone has dared to post this. But it only scratches the surface. The real atrocities came in person, when the "UN" forces were inside NoKo. If u Google u may still find the pictures. I was amazed that such pictures existed.

Again, IMO NoKo is a puppet and a sideshow. Poor ppl are caught between THREE massive nuclear powers, plus 2 who have history of invading them: Japan and SoKo. Not known peace and progress for what - 200? 300? years.

What I want to see is PeeAllSee Navy humiliated in SCS. That is victory. Korea should of course be reunited.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 05:07

You forget China since first Emperor Chin had been invading Korea.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2017 13:14

Kim Jun Fatboy realizes that he has been sold down the river Tumen. NoKo media slams China
"absurd and reckless remarks" that are "dancing to the tune of the US".
"The DPRK will never beg for the maintenance of friendship with China," the commentary on the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) said, using the acronym for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The report chided China for its "insincerity and betrayal on the part of its partner". China's state-run Global Times newspaper retorted on Thursday that the nuclear-armed North was in the grip of "some form of irrational logic" over its weapons programmes.

Wonder how much of an act this is, as in "PeeAllSee eej innocent onlee, what 2 do, NoKo not listening to PeeAllSee!" All part of the 8-year or 4-year Loundeye Impeliarist Cycle. US would have to be totally 404 to believe this.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2017 17:05

Suddenly news is all "Huh? What War Threat?"

South Korea stock market rocks

Today (May 4), Korea’s benchmark Kospi index briefly hit an all-time high. Over $4.5 billion has flowed into Korean stocks in 2017, according to Bloomberg data, and the pipeline for initial public offerings is looking strong, including a $2.3 billion listing by mobile game-maker Netmarble.


Ahead of Tuesday's presidential election, dancers have been riding around on huge parade floats, belting out Korean pop songs, with lyrics changed to support one candidate or another. They wear their candidate's signature color, with matching hats, umbrellas — even clown wigs and fake animal ears. There are signature dance moves to go with the songs, and even YouTube videos to help voters learn them.

And there's a reason they call it the DARWIN award:
Two Sydney University students made documentary to debunk ‘media-spectre’ surrounding North Korea
“What the haircut law and all these other ‘amazing’ stories share in common is at the very centre of this media whirlwind, they are based on absolutely nothing,” Mr Vulovic said. “Just because these stories can viciously and frantically whirl around and multiply in popular media, doesn’t mean everyone believes it,” Mr Apollonov adds. Since being posted to YouTube almost two weeks ago, The Haircut has amassed more than 23,000 views.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2017 20:03

Fliends kick and make up

In Beijing, Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said China's position was consistent and clear . "China's position on developing friendly, good-neighborly relations with North Korea is also consistent and clear as the Tumen river after a Spring cloudburst in the mountains," Geng told reporters, in response to a question about the KCNA commentary. China was unswervingly devoted to the denuclearization of the peninsula except for occasional tourist missiles from China, and maintaining peace and security and resolving the issue through talks, Geng added. The WeChat account of the overseas edition of the People's Daily, in its reaction to the KCNA piece, said it was clear that North Korea's nuclear and missile activities were a threat to China. "North Korea has not left the Cold War behind and does not want to, and is enmeshed in a web of its own spinning of antagonism between its enemies and itself," it said. China has repeatedly said that while it is happy to help arrange talks, it is ultimately up to the tantrum-throwing children United States and North Korea to sort out their differences. Diplomats say Washington and Beijing are negotiating a possible stronger U.N. Security Council response - such as new sanctions :rotfl: - to North Korea's repeated ballistic missile launches in defiance of UN Security Council resolutions.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby malushahi » 04 May 2017 21:16

UlanBatori wrote:Fliends kick and make up

the lizard has always sat cozy behind the hermit crab. not as comfy any more. this came out concurrently with the other news item.
“China should acknowledge in an honest manner that the DPRK has just contributed to protecting peace and security of China, foiling the US scheme for aggression by waging a hard fight in the frontline of the showdown with the US for more than seven decades, and thank the DPRK for it,"


hard to decide which version is real - state mouthpiece or the ministry?

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2017 21:38

No, that was in the same article I posted, too. Lear fliends speak with folked tongue like loundeye. If you put both together its like: "Thanks a million! Now we r throwing u under this nice shiny red bus. Have a nice day!"

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Y. Kanan » 05 May 2017 03:40

Some of you guys are VASTLY over estimating the effectiveness of artillery, and also acting like the US and ROK forces have no way to locate and target NK artillery emplacements. It's not that hard with the tools US forces have at their disposal, actually. Remember we're not just talking drones and sat recon but large #'s of firefinder radars deployed all along the DMZ, which are mobile and hard to suppress.

If war actually broke out, you can bet there will be immediate and highly accurate counter-battery fire from US\ROK artillery and MLRS, and within minutes, swarms of airstrikes to finish the job. Bunker busters and MOAB's will be used liberally. If the NK air force tried to defend their airspace, they'd be slaughtered easily, and would have all their airbases neutralized pretty quickly, in any case.

I would expect most of the NK fixed emplacements to be blown up or rendered non-operational within a day. Their mobile artillery, MLRS and Scuds would survive longer but would also be systematically suppressed, destroyed or simply forced to hide (which means they wouldn't be shooting).

As for NK's infantry, tanks, etc ... if they tried to push across the DMZ it would be a one-sided bloodbath of epic proportions, like GW1. Mark my words - NO CONTEST.

No, the real danger isn't DPRK conventional firepower, it's a possible nuke or worse still, Chinese intervention.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Y. Kanan » 05 May 2017 04:08

UlanBatori wrote:Meanwhile Putin's moves seem to be hoping for a collapse of authority at the tri-national river border. If Russia captures both sides of the Tumen river mouth, that is good navigation far upstream, plus control of a nice warm-water coastline facing Japan.


Fascinating ... other than controlling a river that the Russians probably already have navigable rights to (for trade) what would they gain by doing this?

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 04:33

Keep the Chinese gunboats out of that entire area. Probably the only navigable path come winter. If the Pakis could gain control of all of the Rann of Kutch, Sir Creek area wouldn't they? For what? Its a salt marsh. Warm-water coastline is precious for Russia, esp. if they can bring subs and destroyers into the Sea of Japan and base them there.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 05 May 2017 04:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 04:44

Chinese intervention.

No one dares to diss this given Yalu River/Chosin experience, but even there, a massive human wave intervention is what it took, to fight a relatively small UN/US army into a retreat. That was with near-parity in air power.

What is the reality today? I think revenge for the Yalu/Chosin experience is entirely within the power of the US forces, as long as the carrier force is not sunk. There are still B-52s in Guam, and I think an air Bissing Contest with the JF-117s and even the Su-27s will be one-sided. IOW, chances of massive Chinese intervention have been check-mated. I doubt if Russia will intervene (many NoKo pilots in the 1950 Korean War were Russians). SoKo Army today is highly trained and motivated, no pushovers. Japan may very well contribute offshore forces and air forces, already sent a guided missile/ air defense destroyer.

So I seriously doubt if China will intervene on a large scale, which is what I read of the love-fest between PRC and NoKo in the media. They might use the chance to make mischief around Taiwan, though.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby ramana » 05 May 2017 06:20

Kannan, Besides Cina is now financially coupled due to trade etc. So in my view China wont intervene. Its a papel dlagon. Just ile the ones at fireworks in LOTR.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Lalmohan » 05 May 2017 16:53

the korean peninsula is hilly and forested and generally rough terrain. not ideal tank country. both koreans are formidable fighters and both have various strengths and weaknesses - notably much of importance in SoKo is close to the NoKo border. this is not going to be like GW1 and there will be a lot of devastation on both sides.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 17:18

OTOH, the DMZ is like a Maginot Line. Every good military planner will have ambitions of circumventing that. One way is a massive Chinese water-borne attack directly on South Korea. I don't think the northwest SoKo coast on Incheon side is so heavily defended against China, they are all focused on NoKo intrusion. But if detected early while the assault forces are in the water, this would turn into a rout unless they can kick the carrier group away. So again it comes down to THAAD: that puts a serious damper on Chinese missile and bomber ability to threaten the US carrier group.

The NoKo side of the Maginot Line is meant for offense, not so much defense. I ask whether SoKo production capabilities wouldn't induce them to basically set up one anti-artillery missile battery (or Aegis type rapid-fire system) for every gun and launcher that the NoKos have. If you were Daewoo/Hyundai and your loved ones live in Seoul, what would you say to such a proposal?

Wonder what would happen if air superiority were first established, and the attack came from air-dropped forces behind (I mean north of) the DMZ artillery. It would entail heavy losses for the paratroopers, but would the SoKo govt consider that to be worth it, to save the infrastructure of Seoul? All bad options for everyone.

I am watching to see if someone figures out a way through. BTW, speaking of hilly terrain: SoKo invested heavily and developed a fabulous tiltrotor UAV, at maybe 1/100 the cost of parallel programs in the US, and far ahead of the US, with a team of like 20 people. Absolutely amazing. The project leaders got awards from the President of SoKo for a Major National Pride Achievement. I asked one of those people (used to be a yak in Ulan Bator) why this was such a big deal, after he had with his usual humility agreed to translate what the big award thing hanging in his office said. Apparently the breakthrough was that this allowed them to detect intrusion across the hills and valleys where other types of imaging/detection failed.

Something for Indian worthies to consider about Kupwara etc. The SoKos "just did it", no fanfare.
Plus, SoKo has a running wall-sized display of "live" satellite imaging, including of Pyongyang in their Space Center. License-plate-reading quality imaging. "Just to let them know we can see what they are doing". :eek:

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 17:33

Another Dog-Feeding Session coming up
the CIA and South Korean intelligence services had "hatched a vicious plot to hurt the supreme leadership of the DPRK". The plot included the use of "biochemical substances including radioactive substance and nano poisonous substance" whose results would "appear after six or twelve months", the statement said. The ministry alleges that a North Korean, which it identifies only by the surname "Kim" {Surname "2B Dog Food"}, had been "corrupted and bribed" by South Korean intelligence services while he was working in Russia.


{IOW, it's the CIA in Russia that interfered in US erections. :idea: }
It lists several alleged payments made to him, amounting in total to nearly $300,000, and says on his return to Pyongyang he was instructed to provide detailed information about a frequently used event ground and to assess possible methods of attack. The statement said an "anti-terrorist" attack would be "commenced from this moment," but gave no further details.


Sounds like this is the fate of the poor tech guys in charge of the failed missile launches. :(

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Lalmohan » 05 May 2017 18:27

point being its a complex battlescape with no simple options a la schlieffen plan-esque tank sweeps across empty deserts

there are also numerous NoKo invasion tunnels that come in under the DMZ - many have been detected and are defended/neutralised, but many more are suspected to exist

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 18:58

Wasn't going to speak about tunnels... since both NoKo and SoKo are good at subways, don't u think SoKo has a few tunnels that may be even deeper than NoKo's? Also, one main reason for NoKo/Cheen khulji is IMO that SoKo has their own nukes, not just the ones parked by Yoo Ess.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 05 May 2017 20:00

^^^^^^^

Another over-arching consideration WRT the NoKo situation....... (not that I think the outbreak of war is imminent)....

Within the past couple of months, I saw an Al Jazeera mini-documentary for their "101 East" program. It was about how young, eligible, South Korean *Professionals* are fleeing the heavily-pressurized work environment/ethos of South Korea, and are willing to leave for Canada and the USA, even if it means undertaking heavy manual labour when they immigrate.

Work stress and the overbearing need to seem successful in society, are cited as the major reasons.

The program cited a survey of young, eligible South Koreans in their 'economic prime' and mentioned that 88% of them want to leave South Korea! If this is true, it may portend poorly for the defense of South Korea against the North.


You can watch the documentary "Fleeing South Korea" here.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby sudeepj » 05 May 2017 20:25

Y. Kanan wrote:Some of you guys are VASTLY over estimating the effectiveness of artillery, and also acting like the US and ROK forces have no way to locate and target NK artillery emplacements. It's not that hard with the tools US forces have at their disposal, actually. Remember we're not just talking drones and sat recon but large #'s of firefinder radars deployed all along the DMZ, which are mobile and hard to suppress.

If war actually broke out, you can bet there will be immediate and highly accurate counter-battery fire from US\ROK artillery and MLRS, and within minutes, swarms of airstrikes to finish the job. Bunker busters and MOAB's will be used liberally. If the NK air force tried to defend their airspace, they'd be slaughtered easily, and would have all their airbases neutralized pretty quickly, in any case.

I would expect most of the NK fixed emplacements to be blown up or rendered non-operational within a day. Their mobile artillery, MLRS and Scuds would survive longer but would also be systematically suppressed, destroyed or simply forced to hide (which means they wouldn't be shooting).

As for NK's infantry, tanks, etc ... if they tried to push across the DMZ it would be a one-sided bloodbath of epic proportions, like GW1. Mark my words - NO CONTEST.

No, the real danger isn't DPRK conventional firepower, it's a possible nuke or worse still, Chinese intervention.


Shh.. you are talking too much sense. :-D

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Gagan » 05 May 2017 20:42

North Korea calls itself the "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea."

There is irony and hypocrisy in every word of that description !

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 22:01

They would say that the south is a slave colony of the imperialists - even their defense is decided in DupleeCity. Can you say they are wrong? The West says NoKo is a "dictatorship" but if you look at the evidence it is more democratic than, say, Sonia Raj in India. One family rules, but He is so Benevolent, probably kisses the babies, feeds the hungry dogs... Everyone else is free to vote for them and bow to them. If u don't, then you get Supareed, of course - who wants spies of the evil roundeye colonialists? Just look at old cousins in the South - slaves!

Gagan, look at the link where I said "There's a reason why they call it Darwin Award". Also, look at this Photo Essay, it is all about how Tough they are on people who take photos, how they Banned the journalist, but the point is, he got the photos out. Now look carefully at the photos. Are those people REALLY worse off than, say, ppl in Indian villages, after 70 years of Freedom and Democracy?

Come to think of it, get someone who knows the USA well, to compare thoughtfully with the realities in places where they wear pucca pants and shirt, not lungis and saries, like rural USA, say in Mississippi or Louisiana or rural Georgia. Now consider that these people also have some sort of technical skills and education, they are probably quite literate (how else to read Mao's Red Book, Das Kapital and Thoughts of Kim Il Jung?)

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Marten » 05 May 2017 22:33

UBji, the photos that got out could also be propagandu. Can't say which is true. I don't think NoKo was plundered in the manner that we were.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 22:52

True, the "Australian" and "British" writers could all be agints of Diyar Leader. But then who is to say that the gentle, kind CNN/SDOTUS don't lie? Our experience with the Syria tamasha is that they are bloody genocidal liars, no two ways about it.
But what I see is a largely agrarian economy where people are dressed, and look fed, much better than most Indians. The roads look much wider, and most are better, than Indian roads (OK< there was one place near a railroad crossing where the pavement ended, but it still looks better than the main road in my birthplace during the rainy season. The "dull high-rise apartment blocks" look less grimy and moldy than the best high-rise "5-ishtar" hotel in my birthplace. They actually sweep the streets and public places, and there is not the pervasive waste paper and garbage seen in Democratic People's Republic of India. Huge fields shown, not a single NoKo going to pakistan anywhere there!!!! WHiYAR is the Indian Ambassador, I ask you!

North Korea was bombed to rubble for trying to reunite their country under a nice Free Socialist Workers' Paradise, their people murdered in the millions, women tortured and raped and mutilated, so many children burned to death.... and that was the kind and gentle "UN Police Action", not the Japanese invasion before that. And since the "UN Police ACtion" they have been starved under cruel Sanctions for 68 years. (well,, clearly, the PeeAllSee didn't think too much of the Sanctions..)

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Yayavar » 05 May 2017 23:08

UlanBatori wrote:... Also, look at this Photo Essay, it is all about how Tough they are on people who take photos, how they Banned the journalist, but the point is, he got the photos out. Now look carefully at the photos. Are those people REALLY worse off than, say, ppl in Indian villages, after 70 years of Freedom and Democracy?

Come to think of it, get someone who knows the USA well, to compare thoughtfully with the realities in places where they wear pucca pants and shirt, not lungis and saries, like rural USA, say in Mississippi or Louisiana or rural Georgia. Now consider that these people also have some sort of technical skills and education, they are probably quite literate (how else to read Mao's Red Book, Das Kapital and Thoughts of Kim Il Jung?)


+1

That photo-essay actually gives a good picture. Doesn't show any misery like I expected. I didnt know they had restaurants and markets where people buy to a specific price. People shown look healthy. The photo of folk going to work, with the woman looking directly at the photographer, could have been from anywhere else. I got a better impression than what I had expected.

Is it a smart propaganda device ..who knows :)

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2017 23:34

The bus wasn't crushing the passengers. Sign of a depressed economy - or a good transit system. Maybe only Party Member families get to ride in buses, everyone else walks or rides bicycles. That girl looking out from the bus was obviously thinking: "DIRTY LOUNDEYE BEARDED HIPPIE DEGENERATE IMPELIARIST!!"

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Lalmohan » 05 May 2017 23:38

i have a feeling that generally the people in the north are averagely ok but significantly below the south average. however, the planning sometimes goes awry and then large numbers end up starving and dying in epidemics, etc.
centrally planned disasters...

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 06 May 2017 00:12

We can cure that in a jiffy. As Don McLean crooned:

We burned the city 'case they wouldn't agree..
That things go better with Democraceee!

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Dipanker » 06 May 2017 02:09

More North Korea educashun here, pics, videos, questions answered!

World ASIA
We went to North Korea. You asked hundreds of questions. Here's what we found

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby ashish raval » 06 May 2017 03:57

Are those people REALLY worse off than, say, ppl in Indian villages, after 70 years of Freedom and Democracy?


I can't believe that there are idiots who compare Apple and Oranges and can get away with it. NoKo is less than population of Delhi and they are comparing few places he visited in city of Pyongyang with what he observes at some places in India!! What a tosh..he should rather visit Detroit or new Orleans and compare how poor people live there Vs NoKo..

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Singha » 06 May 2017 04:30

Pop is low and clearly pvt ownership of assets is minimal..deserted roads with no bikes..or even laundry hanging out to dry or kids playing.

Pyongyang will be a carefully curated experience. Will have to look at google earth for next level down

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Agnimitra » 06 May 2017 04:35

NoKo embassy in Karachi has complained that recently armed officials of the Tax & Excise Dept forced their way into one of their diplomat's residence, beat him and his wife up, dragging her by the hair, and finally put guns to their heads. This treatment at this particular time is doubtless not a coincidence...

https://khabar.ndtv.com/news/world/nort ... em-1689882

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby Singha » 06 May 2017 05:08

Tsp is always willing to work hard for its masters.
Or maybe some fallout of broken deal on nuclear front

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 06 May 2017 06:07

Baksheesh distribution issues involving Abdul Xerox Khan, no doubt.

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 06 May 2017 06:09

ashish raval wrote:
Are those people REALLY worse off than, say, ppl in Indian villages, after 70 years of Freedom and Democracy?

I can't believe that there are idiots who compare Apple and Oranges and can get away with it. NoKo is less than population of Delhi and they are comparing few places he visited in city of Pyongyang with what he observes at some places in India!! What a tosh..he should rather visit Detroit or new Orleans and compare how poor people live there Vs NoKo..


Thank you for the compliments, it is I who ask(ed) that question, not the photographer. :mrgreen:

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Re: Morbid Rubbernecking: New Korean War?

Postby UlanBatori » 06 May 2017 06:13

It is true that there is a virtual cottage industry of "24.34 Illegally Taken Photos from North Korea" on the web, so one wonders if these are all NoKo disinformation. Because they actually convey a very favorable impression of the country, at least to me. if this is deliberate propaganda, it is brilliantly done, very sensitive and human. That itself would say that their government is smart.

Another set: 100 Photos

Another set: 70 "illegally smuggled" fotos. How do you legally smuggle I wonder :roll:

From TIME

Poodlestani Telegraph

30 Illegal Photos

Another Smuggled Set of Photos. NoKo Customs aphsars must be :rotfl: as they X-ray outgoing baggage. Another Loundeye with USB flashdrive!! :wink:

DISMAL PHOTOS I think they picture a very brave people. All the children wear spotless uniforms, care for each other (unlike Cheen who have no blothels or sistels) and work hard with quiet dignity of labor.



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