Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Sep 2017 12:58

Unlike Agni tests, which DRDO can do independently, Astra trials must involve the user from the get go. So, I hope these are considered quasi-user-trials at the very least, leading to a rapid induction.

Also, mercifully, there might not be summer trials & winter trials. I could be wrong, of course.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Sep 2017 13:28

well its pretty cold up there at 45,000ft -50C so thats winter trials - fly the MKI in slow circles for 3 hours
it pretty hot on the tarmac at jodhpur and pune 40-45C , let the heat and dust pound it
and in tezpur it rains heavily so let it sit on tarmac soaking in the rain

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Sep 2017 16:41

A fantastic Image of Su-30MKI with 2 Astra missiles and one being fired
From https://twitter.com/writetake/status/909005612750483457

Another pic from yesterday's #Astra BVRAAM trials with co-pilot (FTE) in focus; missile release captured by an onboard cam on Sukhoi. #IAF

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Sep 2017 20:00

The key achievement is local seeker. Now we need to produce it in large numbers.

Having a local BVR+local seeker provides us ability to increase BVR firings, thereby increasing pilot numbers and aircraft with BVR capability. Imported BVR will pose cost and technical challenges, which we will freed now. The Russian BVRs are broken, while Israelie ones may be wrapped in kambal and safely stored, to be used when the balloon goes up.

We have integrated a Indian BVR with datalink on a non-Indian jet. This allows us to play with integrating this with various platforms. Who knows we might have a khan type pipedream BVR truck

Also Astra will be a great bargaining point when we want Derby or some future TFTA BVR. Now that the manufacturer who makes BVR know we can make BVR, they cannot force our hand in terms of cost. Also no more monkey models.

One aspect of Paki JF17 buy was to create a "BVR problem " for IAF. SD-10 may or may not hit the target, however it does provide an ability to PAF to create a BVR zone.

Now with a home-grown solution, we can do some "fire at will" against PAF.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Sep 2017 20:10

It's not clear, what they mean by indigenous seeker. There are 3 versions:-

1. License produced from Russian components

2. Same design as 1. But Russian components reverse engineered

3. New clean slate designs manufactered with Indian Components

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Sep 2017 20:12

This one missile line (along with extended range radar guided and even short range radar guided or dual/multimode seeker (both IR and RF)) should be continued with more labs/player. This is really a force multiplier. Add AG smart munitions of various weight/distance (something like 1000 lb at 300km range, or ground penetrating (bunker busters) and short range) and we build some very lethal capability. Israelis started as such, now they are leaders with huge export and they do not even make engines or aiframes.

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Sep 2017 20:26

Gyan wrote:It's not clear, what they mean by indigenous seeker. There are 3 versions:-

1. License produced from Russian components

2. Same design as 1. But Russian components reverse engineered

3. New clean slate designs manufactered with Indian Components

Reverse engineered or clean slate, as long as it meets IAf requirement & can be produced like pan cakes .. cost effectively.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Sep 2017 20:30

Wow
Thanks Kakarat!

Kakarat wrote:A fantastic Image of Su-30MKI with 2 Astra missiles and one being fired
From https://twitter.com/writetake/status/909005612750483457
Another pic from yesterday's #Astra BVRAAM trials with co-pilot (FTE) in focus; missile release captured by an onboard cam on Sukhoi. #IAF

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Sep 2017 20:31

Now for Astra to be added to MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29 Upg, Mirage 2000 and Tejas!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Sep 2017 20:36

late to this discussion. Congrats to the scientists and the IAF for a successful set of trials. the missile exhaust on the Astra is the most beautiful I have ever seen on any missile. Just gorgeous...that spectrum of colour.

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Sep 2017 20:46

The full burning propellant makes for great PR.

Makes Astra quite TFTA.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Sep 2017 21:54

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=170810

Key takeaways from the

A total of seven trials were conducted against Pilotless Target Aircrafts (PTA) successfully.

The missions included engagement of target at very long range

engagement of high manoeuvring target at medium range

This is a very critical capability

and multiple launches of missiles in salvo to engage multiple targets.

This is also a force multiplying capability.

Would love to see the photos in salvo mode.

All the sub-systems including the indigenous RF Seeker performed accurately, meeting all the mission parameters and objectives.

This is a significant development. We've historically never made compact seekers and control systems. Now that barrier is overcome. This is a tremendous achievement.

Two missiles were also launched in the combat configuration with warhead and the targets were neutralized.

Typically trial missiles are launched without warheads to measure and analyse proximity and end game maneuverability. These tests prove the working of proximity fuse and lethality of the warhead.

Dr S. Venugopal, Programme Director led the launch operations and flight trials along with the teams from multiple organisations.

This program was turned around very effectively, from change in wing configuration to indigenous seeker replacing initial Thales & thereafter Russian seeker. There is very high admiration from IAF for this program & its management

Director General, Missiles and Strategic Systems Dr G. Satheesh Reddy, said the technologies developed under the programme will be the building blocks for development of more variants of Air-to-Air and Surface-to-Air Missiles.

Inshallah

I hope seeker keeps evolving for better target discrimination and ECCM in extreme jamming condition, control systems keep evolving for better maneuverability and propulsion keeps evolving for lowering weight and increasing range.

There will be more tests for proof testing of random samples of production units from BDL. I fervently hope DRDO and BDL cooperate in getting the production set up right. This will require no less effort than the development effort.

IAF historically has focussed on A2G more than A2A with Pakistanis arming their entire fleet with Sidewinders, including crappy Chinese planes. Indian was forced to use less capable Russian missiles. With Astra, we can arm our whole fleet.

I do hope Jaguar DARIN 3 fleet with El-2052 also gets the Astra.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 16 Sep 2017 22:12

I seem to have missed this in Feb

HELINA air-launched anti-armour missile exiting its launcher on a Rudra

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/566229552691548160

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Sep 2017 22:18

Great news but again we do not seem to be doing a good job of blowing our own trumpet whether one likes it or not but this is needed to change the perception in minds of our own people about domestic weapons.

I am not sure if the old R-77 test conducted by the IAF is still around as it is very old now , I distinctly remember it was conducted somewhere in Rajasthan where a Su30 (I forget K or the MKI) took out a target flying behind it by firing a R-77 , the missile made a violent 180 turn after the launch and took out the target which behind the launch aircraft.

I hope we make public the video films of Astra's trials and in near future IAF conducts exercises using the Astra that is when we would have truly arrived in this scene.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Sep 2017 00:25

Anantha Krishnan M✈@writetake

Anantha Krishnan M wrote:#Astra BVRAAM just seconds after its release.
Dedicatig this rare grab to Marshal of AF #ArjanSingh.
Rest in Peace Sir.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Sep 2017 01:28

I hope the IAF puts a 2000 unit order on BDL for this missile to quickly build up warstocks for the Su-30, MiG-29 and Tejas fleets (4 missiles per aircraft, at least a decent IOPs capability) and asks DRDL to quickly progress Mk-2.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Sep 2017 01:29

Anantha Krishnan M✈@writetake

Anantha Krishnan M wrote:Video-2: Dedicating this video of #Astra's latest trial to #ArjanSingh, air warrior who inspired millions of Indians.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/909142175383920640

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Sep 2017 07:52

AdityaM wrote:I seem to have missed this in Feb

HELINA air-launched anti-armour missile exiting its launcher on a Rudra

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/566229552691548160

The HELINA seems to have booster behind the sustainer, unlike the Nag. Seems to be major propulsion system modification.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Sep 2017 09:38

How do the optic portion of other missiles close by not get damaged from the exhaust of the missile being launched?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 17 Sep 2017 11:08

Cybaru wrote:How do the optic portion of other missiles close by not get damaged from the exhaust of the missile being launched?

Designed for it - i think they are qualified for certain number of such firings of nearest missile. The other day I saw one of the gps guided rockets (cant remember which) is qualified for 30 such firings.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2017 11:31

Cybaru wrote:How do the optic portion of other missiles close by not get damaged from the exhaust of the missile being launched?

If you are talking about the Shiv Aroor video the other missiles have caps on their housings

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Sep 2017 18:12

negi wrote:I am not sure if the old R-77 test conducted by the IAF is still around as it is very old now , I distinctly remember it was conducted somewhere in Rajasthan where a Su30 (I forget K or the MKI) took out a target flying behind it by firing a R-77 , the missile made a violent 180 turn after the launch and took out the target which behind the launch aircraft.

It was R-73E, that has the ability to flip around guided by HMCS. Target was flare launched by MiG-23MF and launch aircraft was Su-30K. Event was Vayu Shakti 1999. Probably Member Shiv made videos that are posted here including that R-73 flipping 180 degrees http://www.geocities.ws/hotsprings/2839/vayu99.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2017 18:18

Mig21 (Kopyo)
M2k (RDY2)
Mig29upg (Zhuk pesa)
Tejas (EL2052)
Jaguar (EL2032)

we have the usual zoo of foreign radars, and it will take time to integrate all of these platforms one by one. probably it makes sense now for Tejas only. the rest come with their OEM missiles integrated and numbers / remaining life are not big enough.

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Sep 2017 19:44

An Indian portable SAM and a mini missile is sorely needed. Would provide a much needed capability jump over China.

titash · Post by **titash** » 17 Sep 2017 20:00

Singha wrote:Mig21 (Kopyo)
M2k (RDY2)
Mig29upg (Zhuk pesa)
Tejas (EL2052)
Jaguar (EL2032)

we have the usual zoo of foreign radars, and it will take time to integrate all of these platforms one by one. probably it makes sense now for Tejas only. the rest come with their OEM missiles integrated and numbers / remaining life are not big enough.

Agree. The Su-30 (270) and the Tejas (120) will provide the bulk of the interceptor force from 2020 onward.

Perhaps the MiG-29 makes sense as well given that the MiG-29UPG upgrade is nearly complete and the N010M Zhuk-M/Zhuk-ME radar is common to the AirForce (60) and Navy (40)...so 100 more fighters. That will be 500 aircraft with a common missile. All that's needed.

The Mirage and Rafale will most likely be used as silver bullets for self-escorting deep interdiction and strike using french/israeli munitions only.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Sep 2017 22:47

The aim should be to get Astra to the Su-30s & MiG-29s plus MiG-21s thereafter, on priority basis. LCAs will come with Derby & hence have time for integration. They will also replace the older Bisons and MiG-21s. At least a squadron each. Our MiG-29s - unless we purchased RVV-SDs, are literally sitting without a proper BVR armament. Rafales have Mica+ Meteor and Mirage 2000s have Mica, of both types. While Mica is notionally 20km behind the Astra in max range, it comes in an IR version & is still proper BVR (a Mirage 2000 of the ROCAF took out a drone at 60+ km). Similarly, Derby may lack max range, but it is still there at induction and useful.
It is our Su-30s, MiG-29s and MiG-21s which lack proper active BVR, and the expense and effort for MiG-21s may not be worth it, because they will retire soon. So the Su-30, MiG-29 are first priority, followed by Tejas.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Sep 2017 23:29

Kakarat wrote:Anantha Krishnan M✈@writetake

Anantha Krishnan M wrote:Video-2: Dedicating this video of #Astra's latest trial to #ArjanSingh, air warrior who inspired millions of Indians.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/909142175383920640

Is this his video?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Sep 2017 07:47

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:How do the optic portion of other missiles close by not get damaged from the exhaust of the missile being launched?
If you are talking about the Shiv Aroor video the other missiles have caps on their housings

Yeah, thats the one. I thought they had caps. But if I look at the missile taking off, it seems to be taking off with cap too then?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2017 08:29

Cybaru wrote:
shiv wrote: If you are talking about the Shiv Aroor video the other missiles have caps on their housings
Yeah, thats the one. I thought they had caps. But if I look at the missile taking off, it seems to be taking off with cap too then?

No. The cap gets blown off but that part is missing because the video starts with the missile part of the way out of the tube

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2017 08:37

Singha wrote:Mig21 (Kopyo)
M2k (RDY2)
Mig29upg (Zhuk pesa)
Tejas (EL2052)
Jaguar (EL2032)

we have the usual zoo of foreign radars, and it will take time to integrate all of these platforms one by one. probably it makes sense now for Tejas only. the rest come with their OEM missiles integrated and numbers / remaining life are not big enough.

What does "integration of missile with radar" exactly mean? Someone please set my qibla right if I am wrong - I am no expert here but am stating what I understand

What I understand is that what is seen on the radar has information (a vector maybe) that needs to be passed to the missile in language that the missile can understand. That means that there has to be an interface "middleman" who does the translation

We have already done that for Magic II with MiG 21 and using Russian standards for Su-30/Astra. I suspect that the Russians have good standardization and the signals that get sent to R 27 on MiG 29 are the same as the signals that get sent to R 27 on Su-30. If India has hacked those signals and adapted them to Astra on Su 30 it should be possible without much trouble for the MiG 29 as well no? Tejas is not an issue at all.

nash · Post by **nash** » 18 Sep 2017 08:58

I think he has answered:

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 16h16 hours ago
But there's one thing, from what I gather, XRSAM is likely to have a fully active seeker.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 16h16 hours ago
If XRSAM proves successful, in the years ahead even longer ranged SAMs matching the 40N6 may emerge.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 16h16 hours ago
When I said S-400 class system, I was basically referring to the XRSAM possessing the same range capability as the 48N6 variants.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 18 Sep 2017 09:38

nash wrote:I think he has answered:

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 16h16 hours ago
But there's one thing, from what I gather, XRSAM is likely to have a fully active seeker.

Does "fully active seeker" mean Lock On After Launch [LOAL]?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Sep 2017 11:45

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Yeah, thats the one. I thought they had caps. But if I look at the missile taking off, it seems to be taking off with cap too then?
No. The cap gets blown off but that part is missing because the video starts with the missile part of the way out of the tube

Okay got it, the cap on the other missile look eerily similar to the shiny seeker head. Thanks!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Sep 2017 11:55

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Yeah, thats the one. I thought they had caps. But if I look at the missile taking off, it seems to be taking off with cap too then?
No. The cap gets blown off but that part is missing because the video starts with the missile part of the way out of the tube

I did not know this. Yes caps are taken off before flight. But caps being blown off before the missile fired is a new thing. Hakeem, can you point me to some reading material on this?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Sep 2017 12:01

Indranil wrote:
shiv wrote: No. The cap gets blown off but that part is missing because the video starts with the missile part of the way out of the tube
I did not know this. Yes caps are taken off before flight. But caps being blown off before the missile fired is a new thing. Hakeem, can you point me to some reading material on this?

Even I have seen multiple times that they take off caps off the seekers before the flight, even for IR seekers (they have bright colored caps with red tape tags saying "remove before flight" or something like that). Never seen or read about cap being blown off mid-air before launch.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Sep 2017 12:13

PratikDas wrote:
nash wrote:I think he has answered:

Does "fully active seeker" mean Lock On After Launch [LOAL]?

LAOL/LOBL does not make much sense to me for use with respect to SAM. The target is locked by the SAM ground Radar and the missile would be guided actively from ground control via data link, even if the missile itself doesn't have a seeker (but only need to have proximity fuse, I think). Having active seeker would reduce the dependence on ground data link. Having two sensors (ground radar and missile seeker) seeking the target would be much more reliable and jam-proof. Also range and PoK of the system would get a good boost. I can think of some other benefits too.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2017 19:16

Indranil wrote:
shiv wrote: No. The cap gets blown off but that part is missing because the video starts with the missile part of the way out of the tube
I did not know this. Yes caps are taken off before flight. But caps being blown off before the missile fired is a new thing. Hakeem, can you point me to some reading material on this?

400% guesswork and meditative musharrafic information based on seeing the other tubes and thinking that they appear to have caps with a hinge/clip on top and not seeing that on live tube. I thought cybaru's question was actually a valid one because that plume is really close to the tips of the other missiles.

AAMs even on multiple launch rails in aircraft don't have covers - presumably (guesswork here) because there is adequate separation on launch but here -I don't know. I think I see caps but one is absent from the one that shoots off. But check the sellotape on the other caps

Both the other tubes appear to have caps with an inverted T-shaped opening - but that is seen in full only on the left tube. On the right tube the sellotape covers the opening pattially and only the vertical limb of the T is seen. That T is not present on the naked seeker head

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Sep 2017 19:30

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote: I did not know this. Yes caps are taken off before flight. But caps being blown off before the missile fired is a new thing. Hakeem, can you point me to some reading material on this?
400% guesswork and meditative musharrafic information based on seeing the other tubes and thinking that they appear to have caps with a hinge/clip on top and not seeing that on live tube. I thought cybaru's question was actually a valid one because that plume is really close to the tips of the other missiles.

AAMs even on multiple launch rails in aircraft don't have covers - presumably (guesswork here) because there is adequate separation on launch but here -I don't know. I think I see caps but one is absent from the one that shoots off. But check the sellotape on the other caps Both the other tubes appear to have caps with an inverted T-shaped opening - but that is seen in full only on the left tube. On the right tube the sellotape covers the opening pattially and only the vertical limb of the T is seen. That T is not present on the naked seeker head

My theory, Shiv ji, as a doc you would be knowing that it takes 3 seconds for human skin to burn from fire. Therefore, there has to be sufficient exposure to heat or fire for objects to get damaged or so. When we talk about missiles launch from planes, it's only for fraction of a second that other parts of the plane are exposed to the fire or hot exhaust from the motor, preventing any damage.

PS, in F-15 C/D models, the Aim 9 is ejector launched as the missiles are loaded one after the other, may be to prevent the first missile from damaging or worse the missile behind it, whereas the AIM 7 is rail launch and are placed adjacent to each other.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Sep 2017 19:35

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote: I did not know this. Yes caps are taken off before flight. But caps being blown off before the missile fired is a new thing. Hakeem, can you point me to some reading material on this?
400% guesswork and meditative musharrafic information based on seeing the other tubes and thinking that they appear to have caps with a hinge/clip on top and not seeing that on live tube. I thought cybaru's question was actually a valid one because that plume is really close to the tips of the other missiles.

AAMs even on multiple launch rails in aircraft don't have covers - presumably (guesswork here) because there is adequate separation on launch but here -I don't know. I think I see caps but one is absent from the one that shoots off. But check the sellotape on the other caps Both the other tubes appear to have caps with an inverted T-shaped opening - but that is seen in full only on the left tube. On the right tube the sellotape covers the opening pattially and only the vertical limb of the T is seen. That T is not present on the naked seeker head

While its possible that for these tests they have caps on (I didn't see video that carefully), I don't think in real life it would be so. I can think of only Brahmos which has cap which comes off after launch for obvious reason.

While for AAM, there is quite a bit of separation and a huge airflow for cooling and all, I am pretty sure if there is any chance of damage due to adjacent missile fire there would be a requirement on the missile for qualifying it against such possible damage, either ensure no damage or qualify for certain number of such firings.

I think ATGMs should have this requirement, due to their close clustering and possible launch at zero airspeed. Rockets do have such requirement.

sas · Post by **sas** » 18 Sep 2017 19:49

srin wrote:
AdityaM wrote:I seem to have missed this in Feb

HELINA air-launched anti-armour missile exiting its launcher on a Rudra

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/566229552691548160
The HELINA seems to have booster behind the sustainer, unlike the Nag. Seems to be major propulsion system modification.

Yes, HELINA has booster behind the sustainer, it's apparent from single nozzle. HELINA has either a) Single burn BOOST-SUSTAIN motor or b) Pulsed BOOST-SUSTAIN motor.

In case of a) Single burn BOOST-SUSTAIN motor, configuration of booster grain could be radially burning inner to outer grain tube and sustainer grain could be end burning grain rod respectively (i.e. radial boost, end burning sustain, simultaneous burning of both booster and sustainer grains) and also concentric radial burning of booster and sustainer grain configuration (i.e. sustainer grain receiving booster grain).

In case of b) Pulsed BOOST-SUSTAIN motor, same as above radial burning tube for booster and end burning rod for sustainer and also radial boost and radial sustain.

In pulsed motor,both booster and sustainer are separated by a concave-convex type of burst disk. Both booster and sustainer are placed in a single motor casing, with burst disks as thermal barrier.

^^^^^Pulsed rocket motor solid grain arrangement.