Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Dec 2017 19:02

In increasing order of range:

QRSAM, Akash Mk2, MRSAM, XRSAM.

X stands for xtra long

MRSAM and LRSAM are one and the same. Navy calls the MRSAM as LRSAM. In the Naval context, it is long range indeed.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Dec 2017 19:03

suryag wrote:this entire xRSAM(x=Q, L, M) has become so confusing nowadays

+1

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2017 19:34

suryag wrote:this entire xRSAM(x=Q, L, M) has become so confusing nowadays

Its all a mess, designation wise.

Akash is per the IAF, a SRSAM.
They classify the Barak-8 as a MRSAM. They will also get Akash NG which fits in between MRSAM and Barak-8.
S-400 is classified as LRSAM.

Navy classifies the Barak-8 as LRSAM, probably because their MRSAM is the Shtil series.
SRSAM is actually a new program to replace Barak-1 but which is yet to be acquired. DRDO's QR (Quick Reaction) SAM will be used for the Navy version SRSAM I'd guess.

Army's Akash replaces the similar ranged SA-6.
Now they will also get Akash 1S with seeker.
They will also get Barak-8 which they classify as MRSAM.
And the QRSAM, which is to accompany formations and is a quick reaction SAM.

Waiting for DRDO to reveal their homegrown XLR SAM program.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2017 19:35

If DRDO reveals a brand new XRSAM program and it has the same range as the S-400, then it will be even more funny.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Dec 2017 19:47

Another NOTAM for 190km.. what could be this ?

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/944199253206822913

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2017 20:49

Pralay was to head for tests soon.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Dec 2017 21:46

ashishvikas wrote:Hemant Rout - #BREAKING: India successfully test fires next-generation Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) from a defence base off #Odisha coast. The homegrown canister-based high-speed #missile can deceive enemy radars making it difficult to be detected. @NewIndianXpress

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 7066341376

Yay! Congratulations! India is now world leader in missile tech!

Mogambo Khush hua!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2017 22:24

Once we have the lego type reusable blocks, coming up with new missiles will be straighter

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Dec 2017 22:46

My ask is on the shorter side of the spectrum. A WVR AAM. We have all the pieces.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Dec 2017 22:47

Any news on K4 Test?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 22 Dec 2017 22:51

I remember that the range limitation on Akash was not because of the missile motor, but because of the resolution offered by the radar doing the missile guidance was not good enough to reliably hit fighter sized targets at that range. Considering that Akash will be going at Mach2.5 at the end of its powered phase (1km every second!), simply putting a seeker in the nosecone will extend the range of the missile significantly. Even if it cruises un-powered for 10 more seconds, that will extend the range by at least 10 kms. More range improvements through trajectory shaping are likely low hanging fruit!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2017 23:08

Aditya_V wrote:Any news on K4 Test?

Not yet. Could be in pre-event ceckhout trials/tests

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2017 23:10

^^ Sudeepj, Its not a radar issue, its near X-Band with decent resolution and the Akash itself has a large warhead which gives a wide radius of kill with a RPF combo. The current radar can easily go up to 75km, the 25-30km Akash range cited is basically the "powered portion" of the Akash, which is what gives it decent SSKP. It is fired exactly within that envelope.
The Akash is designed for a specific range envelope set by the services at the time, its seeker was even dropped because it was unecessary, citing cost & limited gains for the expense.
You can guide the Akash beyond the 25-30km with the radar, but its viability is very less (SSKP will fall as the missile is effectively coasting at the point & its very hard for it to attack maneuvering targets without running out of energy).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2017 23:21

What seeker does to current Akash is it makes the entire system much more survivable. A typical fighter missile sized seeker turns on at 15-20 km, stands to reason the Akash seeker can do likewise and may be more capable (larger antenna, volume, battery size). So it may even have LOBL modes. So, an Akash battery can fire multiple Akash & scoot away (at best providing guidance updates if its LOAL). For opponents with non loitering ARMs eg PAF with MAR on its JF-17s the Akash just became that much harder to suppress.

In 1973 and even in the US vs Serbia imbroglio, the SA-6 was one of the most lethal weapons out there. All I will say is the Akash is far ahead of that already in several ways & the seeker equipped Akash is an entirely different game altogether.

BTW, US was offering to sell us the Hawk, judging that is what we could deploy. The Akash now puts paid to that entire saga.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 22 Dec 2017 23:54

Indranil wrote:My ask is on the shorter side of the spectrum. A WVR AAM. We have all the pieces.

IR seeker is fully indigenous?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2017 00:09

Not yet.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2017 01:19

...
BTW, US was offering to sell us the Hawk, judging that is what we could deploy. The Akash now puts paid to that entire saga.

Pretty hilarious that Hawk SAM was offered

I guess it's like the F-16 offer for SEF ...

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Dec 2017 01:43

srai wrote:
...
BTW, US was offering to sell us the Hawk, judging that is what we could deploy. The Akash now puts paid to that entire saga.
Pretty hilarious that Hawk SAM was offered I guess it's like the F-16 offer for SEF ...

rather "should"

.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 23 Dec 2017 02:07

disha wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Hemant Rout - #BREAKING: India successfully test fires next-generation Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) from a defence base off #Odisha coast. The homegrown canister-based high-speed #missile can deceive enemy radars making it difficult to be detected. @NewIndianXpress

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 7066341376
Yay! Congratulations! India is now world leader in missile tech!

Mogambo Khush hua!!

Is QRSAM new missile in itself or based on Trishul?

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 23 Dec 2017 02:29

^It's a completely new missile, but it uses the experience and technologies from the Trishul development program and technical collaboration with MBDA to fill in technology gaps, reportedly using technologies used from the MICA.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Dec 2017 02:52

Incorrect. The collaboration on a Mica based QRSAM was called Maitri and it went nowhere. This is an inhouse development based on technologies developed for the Astra, Akash, MRSAM programs.

disha · Post by **disha** » 23 Dec 2017 07:46

The missile tech in India has reached a plateau, and that is a good thing. It is a high plateau.

Let's step back say to 90's. Each missile type was a project. For example, take Nag ATGM. One had to develop a range of supportive technologies for each variant. Examples: NAMICA and HELINA. And so on. To the point where we think that to develop a new missile (say QRSAM), a new IGMDP like project has to be created.

For different missiles, from supersonic brahmas to subsonic nirbhay to ballistic to various SAM/AAM/ATGM and different fuses and different sensors. Point is that a host of supporting technologies were brought to fruition.

So now, when one has to deliver a containerized QRSAM, the technology & knowhow & tools & parts for containerization is already there. Need motors? It is there! Need smokeless motors, it is there and additionally it lists the parameters and specifications and also the test scenarios! Need RF Link process and units to the parent aircraft, it is already there and validated. Want to put it in a parent vehicle other than aircraft? Just put it in a vehicle after checking out the specs and test data.

That is, churning out missile variants will actually be quicker. Of course new missile frontiers will be pushed (like Hypersonic missiles)., but we have reached a stage of criticality where to give a "new" missile, one does not have to wait for a long drawn period with hope and pray.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2017 09:27

Indranil wrote:Incorrect. The collaboration on a Mica based QRSAM was called Maitri and it went nowhere. This is an inhouse development based on technologies developed for the Astra, Akash, MRSAM programs.

Basically, we are seeing a snowball effect where critical pieces (and all other relavent pieces) of a jigsaw puzzle have been realized and can now be mixed-and-matched to develop new missiles and PGMs. In the next 10-years, we can expect independence in this arena.*

Note: * That is if India doesn’t keep importing platfroms (fighters and tanks) from aboard as they come integrated with their own weaponry and would cost a lot extra to integrate homegrown munitions. Plus, during the integration process on an imported platform there is always a high chance of secrets being revealed to the foreigners.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2017 09:29

^^ This same snowball effect exists in all development programs. Many a time key subsystems or design issues with some particular bit of hardware hold up the whole program. That is now being resolved after two decades of hard slogging by DRDO and their partners.We need to keep the focus and funding going for high end manufacture of key items.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Dec 2017 09:30

I think forces will realize that is going to take a lot more time and cost for foreign players to integrate our stuff and they may not want to as it cuts into their profit margins and will see more deals going down like it did with Rafale. Another 3-4 more missiles from our side for the IAF and IAF will be find it more prudent to buy home grown and well integrated stuff.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2017 12:38

the foreign OEMs are happy in bulk as-is with no adaptations or tot to the gulf nations and now to japan, which has been rattled enough by the noko bogey to hugely fund its sm2 and patriot FMS buys and starve its F3 fighter of funds. the classic monkey trap the west engineers using bogeys and shadows like iran and noko.

even to make a good shoe for the world market, just look at the kind of testing, lab infra, design and thought process needed on a continuous basis. a defence product on which lives depend is 1000x more complex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw1tE-JIMW4

we must NEVER fall prey to such tactics...NEVER..not for S400, F-solah, KA226T, Pakfa or whatever carrots, cakes and Emily, Jeanette, Miriam or Svetlanas are on the table.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/as ... nt-9519062
TOKYO: Japan's government approved a record military budget on Friday but did not earmark enough extra money to stop a splurge on U.S.-made ballistic missile defence kit from putting a squeeze on funding for an ambitious domestic jet fighter project.

Japan's defence outlays for the year starting April 1 will rise for a sixth straight year, increasing by 1.3 percent to 5.19 trillion yen (US$45.76 billion), according to a budget breakdown published by the government. The biggest ticket item is 137 billion yen to reinforce defences against a possible North Korean ballistic missile attack.

That includes purchases of a new longer range interceptor, the SM-3 Block IIA, designed to strike ballistic missiles in space, upgrades for the Patriot missile batteries that are the last line of defence against incoming warheads and preparations for the construction of two ground-based Aegis radar stations.

Japan will also spend 2.2 billion yen to begin acquiring medium-range air-launched cruise missiles able to strike sites in North Korea in a bid to deter any potential attack by Pyongyang, which continues to test ballistic missiles.

"It is essential that we have the latest, most capable equipment to bolster our defences," Japanese Minister of Defence Intsunori Onodera said after he and other Cabinet members approved the new spending plan.

The latest rocket launched by the North on Nov. 29 reached an altitude of more than 4,000 km (2,485 miles) before plunging into the Sea of Japan.

A spending spree on mostly U.S.-made equipment means Japan's defence planners are being forced to curtail domestic programmes that would help local defence contractors such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries maintain their military industrial base. That may force Japan to curtail its long-held ambition to build an advanced stealth fighter, dubbed the F-3.

In November, U.S. President Donald Trump called on Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to buy more U.S.-made weapons as his administration pushes Washington's allies to contribute more to their joint defence.

Japan plans to allocate 279 billion yen of its next budget to buy defence equipment through the U.S. government's Foreign Military Sales system, 15 percent more than the current budget and more than double the amount spent in year that ended March 31, 2015.

People who spoke to Reuters in November said Japan will delay a decision to develop the F-3, which is meant to counter military technology advances by China, putting on hold a project estimated to be worth more than US$40 billion.

The latest defence spending plans provide the first concrete public indication that pause is underway.

A budget request submitted in August earmarked 7.4 billion yen for a new large jet engine test facility that Japan's defence ministry will need to test a prototype F-3 engine. That item was not included in the budget approved on Friday.

A proposed 2.4 billion for other F-3 research was also trimmed to 1.6 billion yen.

"Money is being spent in other areas and this is a sign that the government sees the F-3 as a low priority," a Japanese defence ministry official said. He asked not to be identified because he is not authorized to talk to the media.

(US$1 = 113.4200 yen)

(Reporting by Tim Kelly and Nobuhiro Kubo; Editing by Paul Tait)

Source: Reuters

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2017 12:41

the F3 will slowly be starved of funds and more and more JSF purchased until none talk of the F3!! and with that their domestic fighter engine will also get scuttled (can see GE/PW giggling in the bushes)

and this is not even a paper design but with a TD flying. imagine the anxiety our Tejas mk2 and AMCA teams have to live through with wolves sniffing and howling outside the door.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2017 12:46

Looks not much larger than the LCA
.Keep Doing why MK-2 can't be a stealth bird.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Dec 2017 13:54

ashishvikas wrote:Hemant Rout - #BREAKING: India successfully test fires next-generation Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) from a defence base off #Odisha coast. The homegrown canister-based high-speed #missile can deceive enemy radars making it difficult to be detected. @NewIndianXpress

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 7066341376

This is the third successful launch and all within this year. First, on 4th June and then 3rd July, 2017.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Dec 2017 15:10

Don't quite understand what he means by "#missile can deceive enemy radars making it difficult to be detected" wrt a SAM.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Dec 2017 16:09

Philip wrote:Looks not much larger than the LCA
.Keep Doing why MK-2 can't be a stealth bird.

Miniature prototype without any bays or reasonable fuel capacity. Actual F3 is planned to be pak fa sized.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2017 16:29

thats a very unique & strange way of TDing a fighter! for a space rocket I can understand some sub-scale stuff to proof techs but no conventional fighter. all the modern ones have always been of the full up size, though design mods were done after TD testing

the chinese J35 and J20 also started off at actual size.

looks the japanis have been trickle funded to the extent they could just create this small plane under the fig leaf of proofing next gen techs ... the FCS will need to be totally tested, new bigger engines, .... at best they can do some RCS measurements but that needs a inert model on a stick onlee.
the avionic and radar can be tested on the ground and in a business jet like everyone does.

the eurofighter looked like this http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/air ... .jpg?v=v40

http://www.sae.org/aeromag/techupdate_6 ... es/05b.jpg

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2017 18:09

with their costs, probably that's the best they can do.
a euro guy once noted it was so expensive to develop new electronic sensors, they were doing so only once every bunch of years. india is churning out a few designs a year. our manpower costs will really assist over the longer run.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 23 Dec 2017 19:34

One interesting thing i noticed while surfing the interwebs for QRSAM photos was that it seems to have been integrated with 3 different trucks - Tatra, Tata and AL.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2017 19:37

Tatra too?
Tata
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DD3jXiKVoAAdFvf.jpg
AL
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/extens ... q2vk74.jpg

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 23 Dec 2017 19:47

Karan M wrote:Tatra too?
Tata
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DD3jXiKVoAAdFvf.jpg
AL
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/extens ... q2vk74.jpg

On rechecking I might have mistaken an AL for Tata. So only Tatra and AL for now.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 23 Dec 2017 20:03

thats a very unique & strange way of TDing a fighter!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2239687#p2239687

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Dec 2017 20:16

Is there any Indian initiative for cheap missile swarms for overwhelming enemy defences in a dense SAM environment? ..both the Americans and Chinese seem to going full blast in this direction!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2017 20:18

abhik wrote:
Karan M wrote:Tatra too?
Tata
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DD3jXiKVoAAdFvf.jpg
AL
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/extens ... q2vk74.jpg
On rechecking I might have mistaken an AL for Tata. So only Tatra and AL for now.

Ah - I was hoping for Tatra, the only proper HMV we have access to, but i guess Tata, AL trucks are no slouches. Truck experts can chime in.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2017 20:20

kit wrote:Is there any Indian initiative for cheap missile swarms for overwhelming enemy defences in a dense SAM environment? ..both the Americans and Chinese seem to going full blast in this direction!

DEWs but we are quite a ways from a fieldable system.