Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 06:10

With help and working with DRDO, VEM is now a seeker & actuator specialist.

Dr Saraswat accelerated the joint work and VEM head says now we are returning in a way, what DRDO is investing in us by making our own missile!

An entire building dedicated to RF seekers, with everything from radomes to components made inhouse. Rs 250 crores, with 100 Crores of eqpt made inhouse by VEM.

They specialize in taking DRDO TOT and taking it forward - making compact variants, new versions etc.

Eg IRDE payload of 25kg with 7 drives in gimbal, reduced to 10 kg & new gimbal (huge potential for UAV).

Can do IIR seekers (IRDE TOT), RF seekers, laser seekers etc.

Make bomb sections including the actuators.

Also Brahmos component manufacturer, Brahmos fuel system, 60-65% of the Brahmos assembly, around 4000 parts. Took 60 engineers to do the documentation and figure out the processing.

LCA fuselage, first one to deliver by March 2018.

VEM Missile: Uses the VEM derived Nag IIR seeker (made much more compact), equivalent to Javelin, smaller than Javelin, 1 million man hours of development, most part of system we have already realized, waiting for facilities to test the warhead, and propulsion, otherwise most of the flight control system, homing head, servo system, guidance, all are ready.

This shows we can develop global products in the country and thanks DRDO.

Looks like this is none other than the MPATGM.




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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 15 Jan 2018 06:17

^^^
Interesting point in that video is VEM received ToT of a bulky DRDO product and then improved up it many folds.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 06:30

srai wrote:^^^
Interesting point in that video is VEM received ToT of a bulky DRDO product and then improved up it many folds.


Basically, they work with DRDO to do this, because that's the entire point of the cooperation.

Two things - VEM is the production partner for DRDO labs to make their systems more "production ready" and optimize them. DRDO labs can focus on the real exotic stuff - signal processing etc, denied components, and have VEM work on the production/ systems engineering side.

For instance in the lab, DRDO guys develop the basic assembly, but put it in a bulky hand finished box with commercial processors etc and bulky cabling.

VEM guys then work with the DRDO guys to optimize this and make it more compact, make it less bulky etc. You can see the huge difference between lab prototypes (DRDO tech focus) and the final versions (being handed to IA etc).

DRDO does the same thing with BEL. BEL deputes engineers to work with DRDO to take some items and make their more production ready, test them in BEL facilities etc.

Second thing is DRDO in some cases is giving VEM/partners its Gen1 TOT while it moves onto Gen2 & the Gen1 acts like a huge step up for private firms which didn't have any access to the base tech itself.

There are a handful of DRDO private partners - mostly smaller firms, where these approaches are going on.

DRDO for instance who has private partners to do the electro-mechanical stabilization for its radars etc. This is big, because they can focus on the core radar work and don't have another huge inhouse lab for this specific purpose.

What will be awesome though - is if VEM get the mass MPATGM deal for most subcomponents, and even assembly is split between BDL and VEM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 06:40

BTW, several companies are now set up with ex-DRDO, BEL guys heading them (as founders). One was founded by ex-DLRL guys (publicly listed), another by ex-DARE EW person (again focusing on that area), one by ex-BEL R&D head, which is doing pretty well for itself. Some other firms cut their teeth working for ISRO, DAE etc and then looked towards DRDO which also farmed out contracts to them and tacitly supported them (so as to not offend several vested interests). Then there are the niche divisions of otherwise big firms (TATA SED, L&T) and now some new big players - Bharat Forge. Baba Kalyani was actually asked by ADA/DRDO folks if he could start doing jet engines, so he is now working on that & of course there is the ATAGS program.

Given QRSAM, Akash follow on deals, Tejas etc - the brouhaha over this Govt not doing anything for MII being pushed by a select few journos seems to be vested journalism of the worst kind. Akash 2 regiments deal (which is a certainty given IA SRSAM deal has stopped) is nothing less than a huge windfall for its suppliers, let alone the 7 squadron follow on for IAF. MRSAM one regiment for IA is a big windfall for the TATA guys who have developed its C3I and the private guys doing the TELs. Then there are 9 MRSAM squadrons for the IAF. Pinaka 2 more regiments is again big for L&T and TATA SED. The list goes on and on. MRSAM/LRSAM motors are being made by private sector, so again thats some 12 squadrons worth of missiles which will have their motors flow from the private sector. Private sector can do the Pinaka Mk2 motors too. GOI has cleared this.

In radars, the ADTCR is now headed for DRDO trials. The Swathi WLR is finally in production - 30 units. IA AD has asked for Bharani Mk2, which is again a DRDO radar based off the proven Aslesha given to the AF. 8 MPR and 18 LLTR are on order. Again, these are substantial numbers and are likely to go up once QRSAM, Akash NG orders start arriving.

Pinaka Mk2 has been trialed and found good. The user trials once complete, may add several more regiments to the order book.
BMD if it is ordered into production, even for 2 cities is nothing less than another huge windfall for DRDO private and public partners.

So this entire new manufactured controversy of MII being "fake" being published by a handful of journalists is IMHO yellow journalism.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 15 Jan 2018 06:42

^^^
+1

Sounds like the right approach. One focuses on R&D while the other getting it to production.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 06:54

DRDO can focus more on the "core" work with most of its guys on the hard to crack signal processing or other aspects of hardware which can't be easily tackled by pvt sector (unless they invest in huge infra).

Baba Kalyani says this - he says for jet engines, he is picking up DRDO rtd guys, GTRE folks etc because they have a wealth of actual domain knowledge and can guide his engineering teams with specific points. In our stupid system, otherwise, once these guys reach a certain age, off they go, with pension and to play with grand-kids.

In Israel, one book on Rafael showed their key strength was they did not have any artificial age limit. They had folks in their labs, who were highly experienced working with the fresh grads. The older engineers worked on paper pads, the young guys were computer savvy. Point is they brought experience and the young guys the agility.

By involving private sector, we are finally bypassing the artificial constraints of the GOI system.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 07:00

Our biggest weakness is the lack of proper user involvement in the Defense R&D set up. Till IA and IAF don't set up their own proper project management orgs with institutional memory, and consistency, the haphazard import-make in india set up will continue to have issues, depending on which GOI is in power or whether MOD is awake or not.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakkaji » 15 Jan 2018 07:34

Karan M

Bharat Forge, VEM, MKU, have all complained about the lack of, or long wait for, testing facilities delaying their projects. Is this problem being addressed by the powers-that-be?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 07:46

Yes sir. The explosives stuff is always harder because of the multiple agencies involved, not just DRDO but services etc. But the joint projects are progressing well. What's still being fixed (and with this GOI I believe it will be) is allowing facilities for the pvt firms for their own products for export or without a firm services requirement. That sort of commercial arrangement is still not public yet.
I say the explosives ones because in the rest of the programs, there is clearly a lot of give and take and the issues are not so problematic as in the case of (say) developing a new arty gun.
Baba Kalyani has no less than seven programs!

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 08:01

Kakkaji, Parrikar fixed this before he left for Goa

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/nagpur/ ... w/53532100
Bharat Forge to test its howitzers this year

............
The tests for 105mm guns may be held in October followed by the 155mm makes by December, said Rajinder Singh Bhatia, CEO (defence research and aerospace) for the company.

The new defence procurement policy gives a chance to private players for presenting equipment developed through their own initiative to the forces which can later take a call. The company will be taking advantage of this clause. However, before the army takes up the trials, the guns will have to be internally tested, said Bhatia.
The mounted 105mm gun built by Bharat Forge weighs less than half pf those being currently used by the army. The 155x52 gun has better mobility and the 155x39, due to its light weight also has its own advantages, he said. Bharat Forge had initiated the development process in 2012.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SSridhar » 15 Jan 2018 08:01

vasu raya wrote:Is there an overlap here with the MH370 search area?

Visually, appears so. But, they could be searching from the fag end of the arc which is far removed from the splashdown area on 18-19 Jan.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2018 08:04

So yes per new DPP, they can avail of GOI test facilities. Also see the end of the article: https://defenceaviationpost.com/watch-s ... forge/amp/

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakkaji » 15 Jan 2018 08:08

Thanks Karan M

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 15 Jan 2018 08:43

The Benefits of MRSAM-LRSAM may really be realised into AKASH MK1S & AKASH NG missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 15 Jan 2018 10:41

2018 portends to be a good year.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby KBDagha » 15 Jan 2018 20:24

Is it SAAW at 0.35 minute in the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=masdMgW ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vasu raya » 15 Jan 2018 21:31

SSridhar wrote:
vasu raya wrote:Is there an overlap here with the MH370 search area?

Visually, appears so. But, they could be searching from the fag end of the arc which is far removed from the splashdown area on 18-19 Jan.


Thanks Sridhar ji, they have a fleet of about 9 UUVs to use for the search, could as well do scavenging of missile parts if anything remains. This speculative search area is not good either if it has been the traditional testing area for Indian long range missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2018 02:44

KBDagha wrote:Is it SAAW at 0.35 minute in the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=masdMgW ... e=youtu.be

Great find!

It is not SAAW or SANT. AFAIK, they are not powered and hence cannot be launched from ground. But what is it?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 04:23

Looks like a Fireshadow UAV in the UK
http://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz.wpeng ... nition.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 04:26

Indian Army released a RFP for a Loitering Munition. This may have been a prototype for that very purpose.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... pillar.htm
https://www.engadget.com/2012/07/20/fir ... w-missile/

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2018 05:05

Good catch. Fireshadow is a consortium effort with MBDA as the lead. LM provided software and IAI provided knowledge about Harpy! Ashok LEyland had a collaboration with LM for defense vehicles. This RFP! The dots are connecting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 05:15

Once we get the darn SAAW etc into service, we can make these kind of things on our own.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 05:25

See this - many of our recent programs, we have cracked many of these subsystems.

Image

Its essential we clear all our current munitions programs and hence prove their subsystems.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2018 05:49

That must be part of the plan.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 06:05

Getting an IIR Seeker Fab in India & that GaN fab at IISc set up + upgrading GAETEC + SITAR are crucial.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 06:16

Image

Ok what is in front, what is at back

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2018 06:55

Karan M wrote:See this - many of our recent programs, we have cracked many of these subsystems.

Image

Its essential we clear all our current munitions programs and hence prove their subsystems.

NAL has up-engined the Wankel engine to 65 hp for Panchi. Can they bring it down to 30 hp for this kind of a system? Between Lakshya, Nishant and SAAW, DRDO indeed has all the parts.

Also, this rocket booster arrangement is much better than the one used for ADE's Abhyas. Abhyas had a problem with asymmetric thrust of the two rocket engines.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2018 07:01

To be honest ADE has been given a long rope with Rustam and Nirbhay, they better fix both. Otherwise DRDL & RCI will have them for lunch & ADE's mission will be more and more restricted when it comes to PGMs and guided munitions. They will be restricted to UAVs alone.

Also, what prevents MOD from giving DRDO the go ahead to fund such programs (engines etc) across VEM and a bunch of other firms, rather than tie themselves to some slow effort in R&DE or NAL etc. Have them collaborate with some private firms who can tie up with universities, firms in India and abroad. Bharat Forge is doing exactly that.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2018 07:53

YEah DRDL and RCI are breathing down their necks. I have a feeling that ADE looks at Rustom II as tech demonstrator. There are two many things wrong to optimize out. I think a couple of years back they decided to make a new one. Their head gave a nice talk at Ai'17. I felt it was the best talk of AI'17. Crisp, to the point, with no hand waiving.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 16 Jan 2018 09:01

Karan M wrote:Ok what is in front, what is at back


I know!

Front is display table. Back is Nirmala Sitharaman

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2018 09:18

Ade is living on borrowed time for sure. Not one successful product lately granted these areas like glcm and drones we had neglected for long until slapped in the face

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 16 Jan 2018 09:24

Rustom 2 has already had 10 validated flights. Work going on is for autonomous take off and landing.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 16 Jan 2018 10:43

Karan,
Radar & radar :) Of different kinds. Front end of something really fast and roof/mast-mounted of something slower?

Also, OT - anyway I can reach you?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby marimuthu » 18 Jan 2018 10:23

Agni-V test fired from Kalam island. Further details awaited

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby KBDagha » 18 Jan 2018 10:25


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jan 2018 11:07

Hemant rout confirms that the missile test is successful.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2018 12:05

Damn, Agni V tests no longer gets the Lungis up on BRF- Sigh

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jan 2018 12:09

Aditya_V wrote:Damn, Agni V tests no longer gets the Lungis up on BRF- Sigh



We need 10 thousand km wala to get the lungi up. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 18 Jan 2018 12:21

Pratyush wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Damn, Agni V tests no longer gets the Lungis up on BRF- Sigh



We need 10 thousand km wala to get the lungi up. :rotfl:


+ Agni VI


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