Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Neela » 19 Jan 2018 21:35

Singha wrote:Agni1 RV is the only one ever released. the explosion occurs clearly.


This video amazes me every time.
Some 1000km(?) away, a IR camera is placed with a particular elevation & azimuth. The warhead explosion occurs at inside the view/frame of the camera.
It speaks so much about accuracy

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 19 Jan 2018 21:40

^ Cannot say nothing permits two tests in one NAVAREA warning if the range is similar or overlapping.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2018 22:06

Speculating entertains the mind but needs to be grounded in reality.

A5 is long tome needed to be inducted. This user associate trial is close to stated range and could be a production version.

Detergent requires doing what you say.

Austin, Haridas replied.
You should read up reentry vehicle dynamics to understand what is being said. In simple terms a vehicle sees maximum force when it encounters the air density and max heating at lower height. And both are function of its design. Radar systems can calculate what it is and know what's a decoy and what is real. A5 BGRV has a lot of manuver capability and will be a challenge to most ABM already.

Response capability should match threat capability or leads to bankruptcy. FSU.

So let's be happy and not reach for far away grapes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 19 Jan 2018 23:39

A previous image of Agni-5

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/01/19/world/19India/merlin_132455627_59f89e39-9385-40e5-bb8c-765670f63516-superJumbo.jpg

We can see the composite 2 stage.

Comparable to the size of Chinese DF missiles on a TEL.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 20 Jan 2018 09:42

800-km range BrahMos missile to be tested this year

India is laying the groundwork to test a high-range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, capable of striking targets more than 800 km away, a person familiar with the programme said.

The missile is likely to be tested by the year-end.

India has already extended the range of the three-tonne missile from 290 km to 400 km and successfully test-fired the variant in March 2017. Increasing the missile’s range to 400 km — and now 800 km — became possible after India’s induction into the Missile Technology Control Regime in June 2016.

Prior to that, India was bound by restrictions that limited the range of the missile, which is an Indo-Russian joint venture, to less than 300 km.

“It will be a significant leap forward for the BrahMos project. Air force fighters will be able to attack targets from increased standoff ranges,” said another official tracking the project.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation had announced in February 2017 that a missile variant with a strike range of 800 km was under development.

The configuration of the existing missile is being tweaked to enhance its range to 800 km, he said.

BrahMos variants can be launched from land, air, sea and under water. India successfully launched the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missile from a Sukhoi-30 warplane for the first time against a target in the Bay of Bengal in November 2017.

“The Sukhoi has a range of 3,600 km. Arming it with an 800-km range missile will increase its reach tremendously, and even more, considering the option of midair refuelling,” the official said.

The missile’s land and naval variants are already in service. At least two Su-30 squadrons with 20 planes each are likely to be equipped with the air-launch variant BrahMos missile, 500 kg lighter than the land/naval variants.

Two Su-30 jets have been modified by the Nasik division of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to carry the 2.5-tonne missile that flies at nearly three times the speed of sound.



http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... Abq6H.html

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 20 Jan 2018 10:00

nam wrote:A previous image of Agni-5

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/01/19/world/19India/merlin_132455627_59f89e39-9385-40e5-bb8c-765670f63516-superJumbo.jpg

We can see the composite 2 stage.

Comparable to the size of Chinese DF missiles on a TEL.



Lots of structural design can be inferred. They use a shroud around the nozzle
. The shroud carries all the electronic packages that control the stage. Those rivets on the aft shroud hold brackets.
A long conduit to carry cables along the side of the missile.
The separation joints are where the shrouds end.

Can see antennas and nozzles on RV.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 20 Jan 2018 21:55

The third stage appears to be conical? And the TEL looks like a railway TEL. I could not make out any road wheels. The round is not canisterized. I suspect, Agni-5 or 6 may never see service as a rail mobile missile, instead the resources will be poured into SLBMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 20 Jan 2018 22:13

Yes third stage is conical. This vehicle is on railcar TEL.

However there is a need as recent stories about Arihant in dock have shown.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 21 Jan 2018 00:41

I have a small query. Are the first stage solid fuel motors for the following missiles:-

Sagrika, Shaurya
PDV, Target missile for BMD
Pralay

All similar? Do they all have diameter of 0.74m?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2018 04:14

sudeepj wrote:The third stage appears to be conical? And the TEL looks like a railway TEL. I could not make out any road wheels. The round is not canisterized. I suspect, Agni-5 or 6 may never see service as a rail mobile missile, instead the resources will be poured into SLBMs.

Agni5 will be both rail and road mobile. That picture is from an old launch and shows the rail-mobile TEL. The road mobile TEL looks like below.
Image
The above picture is from a test for the ejection system. The round is wooden and hence the need for a net.

Image
Image

Karan had posted recently about the trailer maker. The prime mover is made by Volvo.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 21 Jan 2018 07:22

That's a much more usable design! That appears to be the definitive version.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 21 Jan 2018 08:03

The canisterized version is the production version. The base on ejection bears a force equivalent to 400 tons as per stayed requirements. The ejection is with a ,blackpowder charge that raises a "plate" in tge hermetically sealed canister that ejects the misdile to 30 meters and the "plate" is ejected sideways as the first stage motor kicks in. Ghe canisterized shot video is also available online. We use the same method justnlike the SS-18 /Dnepr launch

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 21 Jan 2018 08:06

See this video where you can clearly see the ejection plate being shot off to the side. It us a cold launch system
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=00eSQgPDE2U

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prem » 21 Jan 2018 09:05

Clear view of Ejection plate of Satan at 3.35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqC1b1qVBnI


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 22 Jan 2018 10:11

That kind of range will cover all of pakistan landspace keeping the TEL 300 km inside India.

Seems Brahmos range was highly understated , No amount of tweaking can give a 250-300 % increase in range unless the system has built in design growth potential to do so , it is good DRDO is coming up with true range of brahmos.

Such range will have significant impact on anti-ship capability of all Indian ships carrying brahmos , Need to fix the Stand off survellence capability to use such range in real time , Even 500 km range is a significant potential.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 22 Jan 2018 11:32

Re naval brohmos: Space based optical /SAR survillance to cue the missile to its kill box at such great ramge is key.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 22 Jan 2018 11:40

Austin wrote:That kind of range will cover all of pakistan landspace keeping the TEL 300 km inside India.

Seems Brahmos range was highly understated , No amount of tweaking can give a 250-300 % increase in range unless the system has built in design growth potential to do so , it is good DRDO is coming up with true range of brahmos.

Such range will have significant impact on anti-ship capability of all Indian ships carrying brahmos , Need to fix the Stand off survellence capability to use such range in real time , Even 500 km range is a significant potential.

Back of the envelop drag & ISP calculations would have shown earlier of true Brahmos range.
The 300 km range at low low profile or S shape trajectory was the the hidden fig leaf compliance with MTCR ;)

My desire of exporting 3 batteries to Vietnam is now shattered by getting inside Australian tent.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 22 Jan 2018 12:03

I don't think surface launched Brahmos will have that kind of range. This must be the maximum range using parabolic path when launch from an altitude of 15 km and close to 0.8 Mach.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 22 Jan 2018 12:47

Indranil wrote:I don't think surface launched Brahmos will have that kind of range. This must be the maximum range using parabolic path when launch from an altitude of 15 km and close to 0.8 Mach.


True. Even the existing operation Brahmos has only 120 odd km range in lo-lo-lo mode. 300km is hi-hi-hi mode with 9km max altitude IIRC. DRDO has shown long time back that hiking the altitude to 15km would increase range to 450km or so.

It does seem to have a SW switch (and/or perhaps HW tweak in terms of fuel loaded too) to limit range to 290km in any profile. But the range should increase only with appropriate change in altitude in flight profile. I posted some rough calculations previously to show the air launch can add at most ~200km in the range without any other tweak. I think Brahmos with all possible optimizations done cannot exceed 900km - The max range achievable only in ALCM version while flying hi-hi-hi all the way through.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 22 Jan 2018 15:21

I didn't get a chance to read either your back of the envelop calculations or that of Haridas ji. Care to share it again?

Also do you know if the engine has restart capability? Otherwise, it has to cruise at 15 k and only at near bingo fuel, shut engine and go ballistic.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 22 Jan 2018 16:41

sudeepj wrote:The third stage appears to be conical? And the TEL looks like a railway TEL. I could not make out any road wheels. The round is not canisterized.

In addition to Indranil's posting, here is some data I got from a trade journal on TEL and cannister sub systems. They call it Transporter Cum Tilter and unabashedly call it China specific missile.
https://flic.kr/p/WNbzkH
https://flic.kr/p/XPndYT

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2018 17:07

isnt 63t missile a new data point?
everyone else incl wiki calls it 50t...a massive 13t of delta

could be some new higher diameter weapon...length really cannot increase due to problems on trailer and wagon size. the A5 we know is slimmer than other std ICBMs out there.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2018 17:09

Haridas wrote:Re naval brohmos: Space based optical /SAR survillance to cue the missile to its kill box at such great ramge is key.


russia has a series of kondor sats for this purpose.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 22 Jan 2018 17:51

Indranil wrote:I don't think surface launched Brahmos will have that kind of range. This must be the maximum range using parabolic path when launch from an altitude of 15 km and close to 0.8 Mach.

Max range quoted for oniks was around 500 km so 450 km test for surface test seems to indicate upper threshold of Surface launched Brahmos. Where as air launched variant should have higher range due to altitude and aircraft velocity, this is also means Sukhoi-30mki has to follow certain flight parameters to achieve this range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 22 Jan 2018 18:18

Haridas wrote:
Austin wrote:That kind of range will cover all of pakistan landspace keeping the TEL 300 km inside India.

Seems Brahmos range was highly understated , No amount of tweaking can give a 250-300 % increase in range unless the system has built in design growth potential to do so , it is good DRDO is coming up with true range of brahmos.

Such range will have significant impact on anti-ship capability of all Indian ships carrying brahmos , Need to fix the Stand off survellence capability to use such range in real time , Even 500 km range is a significant potential.

Back of the envelop drag & ISP calculations would have shown earlier of true Brahmos range.
The 300 km range at low low profile or S shape trajectory was the the hidden fig leaf compliance with MTCR ;)

My desire of exporting 3 batteries to Vietnam is now shattered by getting inside Australian tent.


Yes Sir , considering we are using the Ramjet engine for almost 1.5 decade its possible they might have improved Engine Performance of Brahmos , Dr Sudhir spoke about improved Ramjet engine to achieve speed > M 4.5 http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... st/963175/

“Presently, the BrahMos has a speed of 2.8 Mach… in two years time it would be increased to 3.5 Mach, and by five years, it would be 5 Mach,” said BrahMos Aerospace Pvt.Ltd. (BAPL) Managing Director & CEO Sudhir Kumar Mishra. Thereafter, to go to hypersonic mode, it is likely to take another seven-ten years as the missiles would graduate from ramjet to scramjet engine, and considering other complex issues of aerodynamic heating, combustion, vibrations, etc, he said. Mishra was speaking at a function


A Combination of Improved Ramjet Engine , better Liquid Fuel of higher Isp and Trajectory shaping would add to its increased range , Cant rule out more fuel by trading warhead with more fuel , A 200 kg warhead will still get 100 kg more fuel without compromising its lethality.

Time will tell how they achieved this but the range increased is phenomenal to cover whole of pakistan and use it deeper inside china , IF they can get a air launched variant keeping the same dimension/weight of existing Air Launched variant then the use case is far and wide.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 22 Jan 2018 18:34

:As a pointer to BMos' true range capability, take a dekko at an equally fine missile, Klub.Subsonic but with a Mach 3 terminal homing warhead of arond 300kg. The Ruzsian original, Kalibir ,demonstratef spectacularly in Sy+ria, fired from small corvettes in the Caspian Sea 1500km away ,and Kilo subs in the Meditt., showed the true capability of that smaller missile. Klub limited to 300km range in its export variants .

Why exports haven't taken off is due to the fact that the IA has been snapping up all BMos produced! There have been none for export until the second line we presume has star/started.

Media reports that the S-400 deal on the verge of being sealed.6 batteries in the $5,5B deal.S-400's range 400km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 22 Jan 2018 20:20

Indranil wrote:I didn't get a chance to read either your back of the envelop calculations or that of Haridas ji. Care to share it again?

Also do you know if the engine has restart capability? Otherwise, it has to cruise at 15 k and only at near bingo fuel, shut engine and go ballistic.


Nothing great. Simple stuff wnoly - a glide bomb would have 100km range when launched from altitude at M0.8. Same range hike for Brahmos can be considered if brahmos can use the added KE and PE efficiently. Also some more kms add due to no initial flight phase at low altitude, no energy spent in flying through denser atmosphere and to gain altitude for hi-hi-hi profile. Best case scenario, AL version would not gain more than say 200km as compared to GL version when flight profile is same.

This is just to set upper bound to the range advantage the AL would have.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 22 Jan 2018 20:33

Ramjet engine cannot be stopped and restarted like liquid fuel engine but you can have variable ramjet engine that can consume fuel effeciently at different altitudes and speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 22 Jan 2018 23:03

Singha wrote:
Haridas wrote:Re naval brohmos: Space based optical /SAR survillance to cue the missile to its kill box at such great ramge is key.


russia has a series of kondor sats for this purpose.

We're launching Cartosats at the rate of two a year now

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartosat
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartosat-3

All for the utilisation by Ministry of Agriculture and Land Use

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2018 01:09

Jay,

I think there is a fallacy in equating glide bombs to an unpowered Brahmos missile. The initial kinetic energy of the latter is 9 times the former. Also, we both know that the drag profile will be completely different too. Actually, I am not worried about that part. The last leg of the flight must be equivalent for a surface launched and air launched missile for maximum range. The difference will obviously come from the first leg. Like you, I want to know two obvious and related questions:
1. What is the difference in fuel consumption for a ground launched Brahmos to reach 15 km and Mach 3; and that of an air launched version launched at (approx.) Mach 1 and 15 km.
2. How much farther can the Brahmos cruise with that fuel. 200 kms is actually quite high.

Austin,
We were not even passed the know-how (forget know-why) of making Yakhont/Brahmos engines. We still import the engine from Russia. So imagining us improving the engine to the point of doubling range is beyond my stretch of imagination. The improvements in top speed is probably from making the missile smaller and lighter (as in the case of Brahmos M). Similarly, Brahmos may have gained from miniaturization of parts over the past decade and half. This could have helped in increasing internal fuel. I can't imagine them carrying a smaller payload with such a high valued missile.

Intuitively, I can't imagine why a ramjet cannot be restarted. There are no moving parts to the engine. All you need is initial starting condition which you can easily attain during the descent of a parabolic path.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2018 01:22

IR, JayS is right. There is no difference in unpowered flight for both the vehicles. Due to the aerodynamic shape you get lift and drag components. You use the fundamental drag equations and then integrate to get the range. Yes the Brahmos has higher initial velocity but in end it all the same physics.
Long ago I had them on a spreadsheet and to get higher fidelity use small time step. That makes it tedious.

.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2018 02:22

Sorry Ramana garu. I can't believe that to be true. I think we all know that the drag profiles are very different for a projectile which is mostly subsonic and a projectile which stays supersonic all throughout (and that too at 3M).

But let's say there's no drag. If both are launched horizontally, there flight time will be the same, the range of Brahmos will be 3 times. Class XI physics.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 23 Jan 2018 03:17

Austin wrote:Ramjet engine cannot be stopped and restarted like liquid fuel engine but you can have variable ramjet engine that can consume fuel effeciently at different altitudes and speed.

Not sure what you mean Austin Brahmos is liquid fueled ramjet engine and yes it can be throttled one of main advantages over Akash which uses Solid propellant based ramjet.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 23 Jan 2018 17:48

Indranil wrote:Sorry Ramana garu. I can't believe that to be true. I think we all know that the drag profiles are very different for a projectile which is mostly subsonic and a projectile which stays supersonic all throughout (and that too at 3M).

But let's say there's no drag. If both are launched horizontally, there flight time will be the same, the range of Brahmos will be 3 times. Class XI physics.


Correct. It was only to put upper bound. Earlier there were wild speculations on AL version range hike, it was in response to that. It only means it can never be more than that. In real life it will be quite less actually - like 100km or so or may be ~0 (if the missile nose dives immediately after launch to very low altitude), depending on flight profile. Glide bomb has much more efficient aerodynamic profile than Brahmos or any missile for that matter. So that puts an upper bound to what extent Brahmos can convert the initial KE+PE into range.


Re, engine restart, technically there is nothing stopping one to stop-start the engine, given you maintain the speed. The moment you stop the engine, speed will quickly drop, due to high drag, below the speed which is minimum for the air inlet to "start". I don't think it will maintain speed even in steep dive.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2018 17:56

On the subject of TOT and holding back from JV partners, IT latest issue on the Indo-Israeli honeymoon describes well how the Israelis have leveraged themselves into the Indian defence market, mostly imports despite " make in India,etc.However, IT says that our scientists complain that with the LR SAM, the Israelis are holding back on key components of the missile.So all are playing the same game, we've got to get used to it until we develop it ourselves.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2018 18:08

TOT is learnt from school of hard knocks. Not from mentoring.
Think of Karna.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2018 18:39

we need to build a experimental Akash mk3 that mimics the Barak8 range, energy, sensor and demo it a few times. then more barak8 technologies will be freely released under the sell it or lose it dynamics that is driving Airbus to grovel in the hall of the great dragon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 23 Jan 2018 22:45

Even as a complete ignoramus on aero/missile concepts, I would like to speculate on how an 800km range Brahmos could be possible. The prospect is too tempting to pass! :)

1. Carbon Fiber Composite load bearing section (the so called F3 section that is being made out of aluminum alloy at present) can bring down the weight of the missile and a simultaneous increase in the fuel capacity.
2. Higher energy solid booster providing a greater impulse to the Ram jet second stage. Essentially, the booster propels the missile for a longer time and farther than the current booster that neatly fits into the Ram Jet combustion chamber and is jettisoned as soon as the missile reaches a velocity at which the Ram jet can work.
3. The final concept that could be used is trajectory shaping where the missile spends more time in thinner atmospheric layers reducing drag and increasing range.

Itll be interesting to see which concepts are used finally, or perhaps the report was DDM.

Here is a report from the Godrej and Boyce Brahmos shopfloor. Lots of shots of aluminum components being machined.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shaun » 24 Jan 2018 03:13

Image
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