GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby nachiket » 06 Jun 2017 23:07

Gyan wrote:If we look at Boeing 702SP series all electric satellites then even GSLV MK2 may be adequate by itself. The weight of 6 ton satellite may fall to 2500kg in all electric configuration.

It may become adequate for satellites. But not for manned or interplanetary missions.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Suresh S » 06 Jun 2017 23:12

indeed a most obedient boy. For me the best moment like vina is the man in the corner smiling and wiping tears from his eyes. Ramana is it Dr somnath. The most important part of gslv mark 3, the cryo engine ( not minimizing anyone,s role). How can u not cry with him, brilliant. Proud to be Indian.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby sanjaykumar » 06 Jun 2017 23:32

https://youtu.be/YdqZ5kWv6OQ


Wow, I might even say double wow.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby abhik » 06 Jun 2017 23:39

4t to GTO is proven, 6t will be proven very soon. So why this sudden yearning for miniaturization and light sats?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Gyan » 06 Jun 2017 23:46

It is a parallel process, and both will go on simultaneously. By 2025, a 6 ton satellite being launched would be equivalent to 20 ton satellite of today due to Ion Engines & Miniterization of electronics.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby AdityaM » 07 Jun 2017 02:10

Video shot from chennai

Watch spectacular end


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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby vina » 07 Jun 2017 05:16

Gyan wrote:It is a parallel process, and both will go on simultaneously. By 2025, a 6 ton satellite being launched would be equivalent to 20 ton satellite of today due to Ion Engines & Miniterization of electronics.

You are ignoring the demand side of things. It is like semiconductor . The number of transistors on a chip has increased multifold, giving massive boost in processing power and memory. But still , given the computing demand, it really hasn't reduced demand for computing because demand is not static and the number of devices in the market has gone exponentially higher.

Same with bandwidth and transponder capacity. The extra payload capacity with larger sizes and ion engines and miniaturisation will be eaten up in no time. There will be myriad new applications and demands that will come with falling prices and greater availability. Today both are tightly "command and controlled" items in India.

Why the bulk of satellite TV in India is via foreign owned satellites. Even getting them off into Indian transponders (we are capacity constrained at this point, you can't get them on demand here in India) will result in big latent demand getting fulfilled. Cut prices and increase capacity , demand will go through the roof.

ISRO DOES need large satellites going upto 10 tons. The GSAT that MKIII launched seems to be technologically on par with the best there is out there with high throughput and spot beam with multiple polarisations etc. It is easier to and cheaper to do all this on a single large satellite than a cluster of co-located ones (even just two will be an issue). Stuff like station keeping and synchronisation of signals and precision alignment between even two of them , if they are looking at high through put stuff , will be a huge science problem and too complex.

Far easier to build larger rockets to carry heavier payloads to space.
Last edited by vina on 07 Jun 2017 05:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2017 05:16

rahulm wrote:Some foreign reports mention the Vikas being a license produced French Viking engine. This is not true.

Correct. The Viking engine was designed by ISRO with manpower as their contribution to the Ariane program.

They went back and designed Vikas which means progress.

So the above reports are wrong.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2017 05:18

Anyone thought of the telemetry bandwidth to downlink the booster separation!

And what that means tot he Agni program data bus!!!

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby SSridhar » 07 Jun 2017 06:23

The brochure says that expected apogee was 35973 Kms, perigee 170 Kms & inclination 21.5 deg. Though ISRO has not yet announced the orbital parameters, which is unusual, it has been reported that attained orbit has been 163 x 34 592 km and inclination was 21.537 deg.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby shiv » 07 Jun 2017 06:26

abhik wrote:4t to GTO is proven, 6t will be proven very soon. So why this sudden yearning for miniaturization and light sats?

That is easily explained. Someone said ISRO should plan ahead. Fine. But as far as I can tell all the plans seem to be suggestions to copy what others are doing today. 10 ton capability already exists with Ariane and others. So OK we get 6 tons tomorrow and 10 tons later.

What will others do later. 15 tons? 20 tons? 50 tons? There has to be some practical limit to the weight that can be lifted with reasonable effort to 36,000 km. What are we going to do when we reach that limit?

Robotic docking is already in practice. Moving one satellite close to another for docking or colliding with it is also no longer unreachable tech. What would prevent a 16 ton satellite being built in 4 x 4 ton modules to be docked in space to make one big 16 ton satellite. Do we have to wait till we reach 16 ton capability or send it to French Guyana?

That is what I call as thinking ahead. That is all. If you have any well informed thoughts on this I would be happy to hear them.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2017 06:53

SSridhar wrote:The brochure says that expected apogee was 35973 Kms, perigee 170 Kms & inclination 21.5 deg. Though ISRO has not yet announced the orbital parameters, which is unusual, it has been reported that attained orbit has been 163 x 34 592 km and inclination was 21.537 deg.



The Apogee and Perigee give us the Velocity Deltas and give us an idea of the FCS on the GSLV. The inclination delta gives us the guidance angle fineness 0.037/34592 degrees per km.

S^3 right?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Gyan » 07 Jun 2017 08:58

vina wrote:
Gyan wrote:It is a parallel process, and both will go on simultaneously. By 2025, a 6 ton satellite being launched would be equivalent to 20 ton satellite of today due to Ion Engines & Miniterization of electronics.

You are ignoring the demand side of things. It is like semiconductor . The number of transistors on a chip has increased multifold, giving massive boost in processing power and memory. But still , given the computing demand, it really hasn't reduced demand for computing because demand is not static and the number of devices in the market has gone exponentially higher.

Same with bandwidth and transponder capacity. The extra payload capacity with larger sizes and ion engines and miniaturisation will be eaten up in no time. There will be myriad new applications and demands that will come with falling prices and greater availability. Today both are tightly "command and controlled" items in India.

Why the bulk of satellite TV in India is via foreign owned satellites. Even getting them off into Indian transponders (we are capacity constrained at this point, you can't get them on demand here in India) will result in big latent demand getting fulfilled. Cut prices and increase capacity , demand will go through the roof.

ISRO DOES need large satellites going upto 10 tons. The GSAT that MKIII launched seems to be technologically on par with the best there is out there with high throughput and spot beam with multiple polarisations etc. It is easier to and cheaper to do all this on a single large satellite than a cluster of co-located ones (even just two will be an issue). Stuff like station keeping and synchronisation of signals and precision alignment between even two of them , if they are looking at high through put stuff , will be a huge science problem and too complex.

Far easier to build larger rockets to carry heavier payloads to space.


Vina, you are broadly right and that's why ISRO continues to pursue 6 & 10 ton tons GTO launch ability. But why Boeing did not develop a bigger aircaft after 747? Look at Boeing 702SP satellite at 2300kg GSO. Satellite orders are given well in advance, Can you give the weight of heaviest commercial satellites that are likely to be launched in next 5 years? There is no Satellie above 7tons GSO even in development, hence no likelihood of any major demand for Commercial GSO satellites above 6-7 tons in next 15 years.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby naruto » 07 Jun 2017 09:23

SSridhar wrote:The brochure says that expected apogee was 35973 Kms, perigee 170 Kms & inclination 21.5 deg. Though ISRO has not yet announced the orbital parameters, which is unusual, it has been reported that attained orbit has been 163 x 34 592 km and inclination was 21.537 deg.

The satellite tracking website n2yo gives the following:
Perigee: 155 kms
Apogee: 34577.8 kms
Inclination: 21.7 °
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=42747

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby SSridhar » 07 Jun 2017 09:30

GSLV Mk-IIs have injected satellites at an inclination of 19.3 degrees. Obviously, Mk-III trajectory is different. Probably, extra precaution.

But, the big dispersion in apogee/perigee needs to be understood.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby rahulm » 07 Jun 2017 10:04

PSLV GTO injection is closer to target parameters compared to mk3.

Mk3 inclination achieved is close to desired which is good because inclination correction is costly in terms of satellite fuel.

The apogee/perigee will get corrected with LAM firings and will get better with control systems fine tuning. This is a brand new vehicle.

I am curious to know actual GSAT19 injection velocity compared to desir d. Couldn't find actual injextiin data anywhere. Did the cryo shut down a fraction earlier ?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby juvva » 07 Jun 2017 11:19

^from the plots, it was looking as if the cryo was over performing, this might have confused the avionics a bit, leading to a premature shut down of the cryo.

added later:

cryo cut off time expected / actual = 965s / 945.6s
about 20s earlier than expected,
Last edited by juvva on 07 Jun 2017 12:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2017 11:23

By inclination is that latitude to position it over india?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby SSridhar » 07 Jun 2017 11:45

Singha, over the equator, not India. All geostationary satellites are parked in an equatorial orbit.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby JayS » 07 Jun 2017 13:58

juvva wrote:^from the plots, it was looking as if the cryo was over performing, this might have confused the avionics a bit, leading to a premature shut down of the cryo.

added later:

cryo cut off time expected / actual = 965s / 945.6s
about 20s earlier than expected,


Confused would be a wrong word. The system must have been programmed to cut of propulsion once desired orbital parameters were achieved and not based on time. The prediction was little off from actual performance. Thus the discrepancy on those graphs shown on the TV. I have already pointed out this a couple of pages back on this thread. This is very usual. If you have noticed over the years, for almost every first flight of new configuration the predictions are little off. ISRO duely corrects their model and from second flight onwards it becomes textbook launch.

There is always some mismatch between simulations and real life performance due to inability of our simulation methods to imitate real life situations inadequately. Also its very difficult to predict upper atmosphere parameters such as density due to very high veriations in it based on latitude, longitude, time, solar activity et al. This could change drag values as high as by factor of 2 or more. So the systems have to have some feedback control system to take care of the variation in real life performance anyway. Its a small thing and will be taken care of in next launch. Keep an eye on the graft next time.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby JTull » 07 Jun 2017 14:09

Seems, ISRO estimates from it's simulations were on the conservative side. That's normal for large scale integration projects where multitude of sub-systems are in play. Even the payload was 20% lower than designed on this flight. There would be many sensors on each launch vehicle that will help ISRO refine it's programming in future.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby vis » 07 Jun 2017 14:24

naruto wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The brochure says that expected apogee was 35973 Kms, perigee 170 Kms & inclination 21.5 deg. Though ISRO has not yet announced the orbital parameters, which is unusual, it has been reported that attained orbit has been 163 x 34 592 km and inclination was 21.537 deg.

The satellite tracking website n2yo gives the following:
Perigee: 155 kms
Apogee: 34577.8 kms
Inclination: 21.7 °
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=42747


NORAD data from USAF JSpOC via space-track.org

Code: Select all

NORAD
CATID   SATNAME   INTLDES     TYPE      PERIOD   INCL   APOGEE   PERIGEE
42748   GSLV-RB   2017-031B   ROCKETB   613.31   21.56   34913   155
42747   GSAT-19   2017-031A   PAYLOAD   606.97   21.55   34579   158

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby gakakkad » 07 Jun 2017 17:09

Noob pooch.. how does norad track satellites ? Is is some kind of high range radars ? It's easy for the owner of the satellite to track it.. but how would 3rd party do it ?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby mody » 07 Jun 2017 17:14

Can S200 boosters propellants be changed to NEPE based propellants? Currently it is using HTBP based propellants. How much would be the change in thrust of the boosters with NEPE based propellant. Given that we are already working to develop NEPE for our missile program, if the change in propellant can give a higher thrust and hence a slightly higher payload capacity, then this option should also be explored.

When the likely first test of semi Cryo Engine? SCE-200 replacing the twin Vikas L110 stage will complete the picture for India.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby arun » 07 Jun 2017 18:35

^^^ Dr. K. Sivan, Director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre at Thiruvanthapuram, in an article datelined Nov 01, 2016 says the Semi Croyogenic SCE-200 will be ready for flight by the end of 2018:

PV Venkitakrishnan, Director, ISRO Propulsion Complex (IPRC) at Mahendragiri in an article datelined today says the Semi Croyogenic SCE 200 stage will be ready by 2020:

“Already, a sample of Isrosene has been prepared and qualified. SCE200 will replace L110 stage of GSLV MkIII. This will immediately enhance the GTO payload capability from four to six tonnes, and can be expanded up to 10 tonnes. We plan to have an (semi-cryogenic) engine and stage capable of flight by 2020 and try it on GSLV-MkIII,”

[url=http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/tamil-nadu/2017/jun/07/post-successful-launch-of-indias-heaviest-rocket-isro-sets-its-eyes-on-10-tonne-class-payload-laun-1613673.html][b]Post successful launch of India’s heaviest rocket, ISRO sets its eyes on 10-tonne class payload launcher[/url]

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Suresh S » 07 Jun 2017 19:10

I have been following this saga of cryo engines since the nineties. They say there are 3 stages the goras/world treats u. First they ignore u, than they laugh at u, than they fight u. I have added a fourth almost total silence, that is my third stage before the fight.

That picture Prem posted a few pages back showing the gslv piercing through the clouds and as if a hole has been made in the sky says this to me. This is a spear through the hearts of all of our enemies, we have arrived and the almost total silence in the MSM says it all.This is one of the most important scientific events in the history of modern India.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby saip » 07 Jun 2017 19:22

SSridhar wrote:Singha, over the equator, not India. All geostationary satellites are parked in an equatorial orbit.


It also means one country can not have too many satellites in geostationary orbit as the space in equatorial orbit must be limited and ALL countries have to share it. Isn't there some kind of international org that allots these spaces?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Neela » 07 Jun 2017 19:29

Gyan wrote:
vina wrote:You are ignoring the demand side of things. It is like semiconductor . The number of transistors on a chip has increased multifold, giving massive boost in processing power and memory. But still , given the computing demand, it really hasn't reduced demand for computing because demand is not static and the number of devices in the market has gone exponentially higher.

Same with bandwidth and transponder capacity. The extra payload capacity with larger sizes and ion engines and miniaturisation will be eaten up in no time. There will be myriad new applications and demands that will come with falling prices and greater availability. Today both are tightly "command and controlled" items in India.

Why the bulk of satellite TV in India is via foreign owned satellites. Even getting them off into Indian transponders (we are capacity constrained at this point, you can't get them on demand here in India) will result in big latent demand getting fulfilled. Cut prices and increase capacity , demand will go through the roof.

ISRO DOES need large satellites going upto 10 tons. The GSAT that MKIII launched seems to be technologically on par with the best there is out there with high throughput and spot beam with multiple polarisations etc. It is easier to and cheaper to do all this on a single large satellite than a cluster of co-located ones (even just two will be an issue). Stuff like station keeping and synchronisation of signals and precision alignment between even two of them , if they are looking at high through put stuff , will be a huge science problem and too complex.

Far easier to build larger rockets to carry heavier payloads to space.


Vina, you are broadly right and that's why ISRO continues to pursue 6 & 10 ton tons GTO launch ability. But why Boeing did not develop a bigger aircaft after 747? Look at Boeing 702SP satellite at 2300kg GSO. Satellite orders are given well in advance, Can you give the weight of heaviest commercial satellites that are likely to be launched in next 5 years? There is no Satellie above 7tons GSO even in development, hence no likelihood of any major demand for Commercial GSO satellites above 6-7 tons in next 15 years.


Well Boeing did not develop. But Airbus developed a A380.
We are debating the evident and obvious here. A 10 tone to GTO would allow for e.g. larger satellites with more transponders, allow more features to be packed , allow sharing of launch costs . And most importantly we will compete in the heavy launch category. WE are adding capacity in a category where very few players exist.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby jayasimha » 07 Jun 2017 19:36

gakakkad wrote:Noob pooch.. how does norad track satellites ? Is is some kind of high range radars ? It's easy for the owner of the satellite to track it.. but how would 3rd party do it ?


might be some world wide regulatory body ( Ex: ITU etc.. ) with which we have to share the data.

They might be same org ( under UN ) which allocates the slots in space etc.etc.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby sanjayc » 07 Jun 2017 19:41

Isn't there some kind of international org that allots these spaces?


The space services arm of the International Telecommunications Union (ITU) in Geneva, a loose association of nations, allots parking space to satellites.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sate ... 75901.html

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby jayasimha » 07 Jun 2017 19:49

oylaaa,,,,,,,,
i got the link
http://www.itu.int/ITU-R/go/space/snl/en

may be if we dig in detail we will get to know the SoP regarding the orbit/slots etra,, etra,,, etra,,

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby shiv » 07 Jun 2017 20:02

The Boeing 747 - A 380 example is relevant in that Airbus felt that 747 was long in tooth and decided to put in a competitor. Boeing decided to stay out. A 380 is not doing well.

I am not sure that we are "competing". We are behind and are going to stay behind in a market that has many players who can loft heavier weights into orbit than us and private players who can do it cheaper. We are watching what others are doing and trying to catch up.

If we must look ahead we need to undercut or bypass the advantages that these players have. No point chasing them except to the extent we need for our own satellites - by the time we catch up they will be a step ahead in the game. This is true of all high-tech segments. We are not going to grab a monopoly segment of the market - which is what is needed to become a world leader. We have "1960s America" like advantages - in that we have a huge domestic market. China too has that. But to grab a huge part of the world market we have to do something different, do it first and realize that others will catch up - so we have to keep innovating to stay a step ahead.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby vis » 07 Jun 2017 20:49

gakakkad wrote:Noob pooch.. how does norad track satellites ? Is is some kind of high range radars ? It's easy for the owner of the satellite to track it.. but how would 3rd party do it ?


USAF Joint Space Operations Command has a Space Surveillance Network which is a system of radars, Electro Optical and ELINT systems.

See http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/space/au-18 ... chap19.pdf for details.

A worldwide network of 20 radar and EO sites. Was built during the cold war to observe Russian sats but is now used to track space debris. All these systems are also part of their Missile Early Warning Network.

vis

Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby vis » 07 Jun 2017 21:10

Singha wrote:spotted two bideshi guests in blue coats there. wonder who they are?


Ambassador of France to India and someone else. See https://twitter.com/FranceinIndia/statu ... 1548758016 and https://twitter.com/FranceinIndia/statu ... 8800691200

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby saip » 07 Jun 2017 21:28

Here is a list of Geosynchronous sats as of Feb 17. Quite a few INSATs and GSATs. ONE Paki.
List of GeoSync
Last edited by saip on 07 Jun 2017 21:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby SSridhar » 07 Jun 2017 21:31

saip wrote:Isn't there some kind of international org that allots these spaces?

Yes, by the UN body ITU (International telecommunication Union). if a slot is allocated and remains unused, it is re-allocated to some other country. Musharraf hastily moved a broken-down satellite a decade back in order not to lose the single slot that it had, remember? (and then claimed that Pakistani aerospace engineers are better than Indians and we all had a hearty laugh for weeks after that here...) Yes, it is that 'One Paki' I am talking about. It just sits there doing nothing.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby rsingh » 07 Jun 2017 21:37

Question to knowledgeable: Do other countries (China, Russia and US) also bring brochures, show live parameters where every nut-bolt is open to public scrutiny?

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby shiv » 07 Jun 2017 21:43

In answer to an earlier question
Image

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby gashish » 07 Jun 2017 21:43

Neela wrote:Well Boeing did not develop. But Airbus developed a A380.


Debate a decade ago was whether airline industry/traffic evolve in to Hub2Spoke or Point2Point to model. Boeing bet on P2P with 787, while Airbus on H2H/H2S with A380.
Over the years, it looks the debate is still being settled, but one thing has become clear -there is no winner-take-all situation. Both H2S/P2P models have seen growth.

I suspect similar situation will unravel in satellite industry - cost reductions in launching stuff in space will unlock unserved market on lower end of weight spectrum and also stimulate demand on higher end as well. ISRO needs to decide where it wants to play, based on its objectives, advantages, and resources.

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Re: GSLV-Mk III launch program/post-launch analysis

Postby Marten » 07 Jun 2017 22:17

shiv wrote:In answer to an earlier question

To give context to the presence of Nirmalananda Swamiji at the launch:
Nirmalanandanatha Swami to head Adichunchanagiri Math
The new Mathadhipathi is a native of Chirnahalli in Gubbi taluk, Tumkur district.
Born as Nagaraja on July 20, 1969 to Narasegowda and Nanjamma, Nirmalanandanatha Swami had a humble upbringing.

His parents had six children and the family sustained itself by cultivating its two acres.

After finishing his graduation in engineering from Mysore, he went on to earn an M.Tech from the Indian Institute of Technology, Madras.

Today, his mother, Nanjamma, said she was happy that her son had become the Mathadhipathi. But she recalled the day, back in 1996, when she got a call from Balagangadharanatha Swami saying her son wanted to become a sanyasi. “I struggled a lot to bring up my children,” she said. She wanted her son to find a job that paid well and help the family financially, so it was a shock went the declaration came.


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