LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

[shiv]

Would be good to know how many flights Sq 45 have done so far.

In general I think no Air Force publicizes the number of flights/hours put in by a squadron unless some milestone is achieved because that gives Intel agencies an idea of uptime and how much flying the platform and squadron are doing . For example how much flying does a J-11 or J-15 squadron do in a month, or a year. Or a Paki JF 17 or F-16.

[JayS]

Would be good to know how many flights Sq 45 have done so far.

In general I think no Air Force publicizes the number of flights/hours put in by a squadron unless some milestone is achieved because that gives Intel agencies an idea of uptime and how much flying the platform and squadron are doing . For example how much flying does a J-11 or J-15 squadron do in a month, or a year. Or a Paki JF 17 or F-16.

Yes shiv saar. It was wishful thinking wonly. No need for exact figure to 4th decimal place. But some rough idea comes from some numbers published. For ex, some data was published for Su-30MKI usage when extension was given to Su-30MKI for first overhaul due to under-utilization. We have seen some data for hawk. As you said at some milestone etc.

BTW the video posted above has a LCA pilot saying 4000+ successful flights for LCA including testing and operational flights. We know flight tests are at ~3600 now. I am not responsible for any conclusion one may draw from this.

[A Deshmukh]

its good that IAF squadron pilots have good things to say about Tejas. Earlier it was only ADA pilots.
hopefully this will translate into more production lines.
<wishful thinking>100+ numbers of L&T/Tata/IndPvt made Tejas Mk1A made in parallel to HAL order<wishful thinking>

[Indranil]

Regarding the IAF now going in for Asraam instead of Python V, the Python V is around 16KG heavier than the Asraam, earlier there were reports that there was a shudder in certain AOA when carrying the Python V, but does that make sense since the AA-11 R-73, fired a dozen times by LCA weighs in at 105KG as against Python V-104 KG.

Is the extra weight of Python V a factor?

The plane does not shudder the missile does.

[Aditya_V]

Yes the Missile does, was it due to weight or Aerodynamic shape of the Missile, was wondering whether it was due to weight but then the R-73 also is equally heavy, so now the IAF is interested in ASRAAM

[JayS]

its good that IAF squadron pilots have good things to say about Tejas. Earlier it was only ADA pilots.
hopefully this will translate into more production lines.
<wishful thinking>100+ numbers of L&T/Tata/IndPvt made Tejas Mk1A made in parallel to HAL order<wishful thinking>

There is been a saying about LCA - Those who flew it, praise it. Those who curse it, have never flown it. Or something like that. IAF test pilots have always given good feedback about LCA. There is no such person as ADA pilot. The test pilots are from NFTC and its established and manned by IAF pilots who are deputed there. But its certainly good to see line pilots enjoying flying LCA. I met one of the Sq 45 pilot a few months ago. He had nothing but praise for the bird and was very proud of LCA.

[JayS]

Yes the Missile does, was it due to weight or Aerodynamic shape of the Missile, was wondering whether it was due to weight but then the R-73 also is equally heavy, so now the IAF is interested in ASRAAM

aero Interference. It happens. Obviously the missile and the aircraft separately are doing fine. But looks like the Israelis have dropped the ball on this issue. It was theirs to deal with.

[tsarkar]

Livefist‏@livefist

NEWSBREAK: @byMBDA in 'advanced discussions' on integration of ASRAAM on LCA Tejas against Python-5. Detailed report coming up.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... iners.html

What a nonsense lifafa article!

I'll start by highlighting the conflict of interest

At MBDA’s new facility in Bolton, UK, Livefist has the opportunity to interact with company officers leading the Brimstone’s international business.

Mr. Aroor has been sponsored a trip to UK, so he is obliged to write and sell MBDA products

The title sensationally says -

IAF Wants Brimstone & ASRAAM On Its Hawk Trainers

'

but the article says -

...exploring the possibility of slinging...

Senior MBDA officials tell Livefist that the IAF is engaged in detailed discussions on a potential program that the company says...

Ofcourse the Brits want to sell more Hawks

so far the proposition has fundamentally meant more airframes

despite -

“By no means is the Hawk a fighter, but when you need to throw all of your assets up in the air , this is a great fit,” an MBDA official said.

"All of your assets" can be more Tejas or Su-30 instead of Hawks.

Teams from MBDA are understood to be engaged with the IAF on a ‘weekly/monthly’ basis.

Which means unsolicited salesmen pestering IAF.

No one from IAF has been quoted or shown any interest in the program

BTW where is the reference of ASRAAM being considered for Tejas? I didnt find any while skim reading the article despite the tweet indicating so.

This is crappy marketing by Shiv Aroor - you refer to something to create buzz, but what you refer to doesnt exist

MBDA might want a competition vs Python. But is there a quote from IAF stating its interested?

The usage of Bipin Rawat's statement in their marketing is crafty.

In one slide, it says Brimstone offers less collateral damage, hence useful in Kashmir.

Brimstone delivers a low collateral damage effect - essential if fighting in proximity to friendlies as is the case in Kashmir

But IAF has never ever been used in bombing/attack role in any internal insurgency (barring the Mizo in 1960s). IAF has never ever bombed Kashmir insurgency. It refused use of gunships against naxals - providing only transport helicopter services in Operation Triveni.

The salesman preparing the slide was unaware of this policy.

[Kakarat]

tsarkar ji, I think you got confused with two different reports by Livefist
The full report of ASRAAM for Tejas is not out yet

I think they are considering ASRAAM for Tejas because ADA is having trouble integrating Python 5 on Tejas and ASRAAM is already available in IAF inventory

[tsarkar]

tsarkar ji, I think you got confused with two reports by Livefist
The full report of ASRAAM is not out yet

I think they are considering ASRAAM for Tejas because ADA is having trouble integrating Python 5 on Tejas and ASRAAM is already available in IAF inventory

Where is the second/full report? If there is no second/full report published yet, then how can I get confused by something that doesnt exist?

I am crystal clear that going by the article published so far, its completely MBDA + Hawk sales pitch shamelessly peddled by Shiv Aroor.

I still cant stop laughing at this statement - buy more Hawks so that you can throw them up in the air against proper fighters to be slaughtered

“By no means is the Hawk a fighter, but when you need to throw all of your assets up in the air , this is a great fit,” an MBDA official said.

[Pratyush]

I have never understood the utility of lifafa in press. Cause a lifafa is a lot more useful when it comes to a politician and not a reporter. No.

[Pratyush]

But go LCA. fly high and conquer all that you see.

[JayS]

Livefist‏@livefist

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... iners.html

What a nonsense lifafa article!
.

+1 Exact same thought came to my mind when I saw that article on another dhaga. Anyways Shiv Aroor is been doing this a lot. Nothing new.

[Kakarat]

Where is the second/full report? If there is no second/full report published yet, then how can I get confused by something that doesnt exist?

I am crystal clear that going by the article published so far, its completely MBDA + Hawk sales pitch shamelessly peddled by Shiv Aroor.

I still cant stop laughing at this statement - buy more Hawks so that you can throw them up in the air against proper fighters to be slaughtered

First He wrote an article on Brimstone/ASRAAM on Hawk trainers which is being discussed on the Air Force thread then tweeted about Discussion on ASRAAM for Tejas with hint of Detailed report soon. If you want more clarity visit his Twitter handle.

[tsarkar]

I have never understood the utility of lifafa in press. Cause a lifafa is a lot more useful when it comes to a politician and not a reporter. No.

It is to create a buzz. If everyone around is talking about something, it creates a buzz. Most people have a natural tendency to go with the flow and not be outliers. Very few people do original research or read the fine print. So when the buzz is generated, it creates a psychological pressure on the person/segment being targeted.

For example, Apple created a buzz that its phone is great. Its camera was supposed to be awesome. But Nokia 808 Pureview had 41 MP Camera in 2012 offering near SLR capability much better than what Apple offers in 2017. iPhone 3 had poor reception while showing reception bars in the display. People had to buy side-bands to improve reception.

But Apple invested heavily in advertisment to create the hype that it is super. The hype & buzz put psychological pressure on people to think its super when actually its just like any other phone.

Advertising and Marketing are multi-billion dollar businesses. Apple's advertising spend is more than its R&D, Manufacturing, Distribution or Employee spend.

As is Coke or Pepsi - the liquid we drink actually costs in paisa. Some of the Rs 20 goes in transportation, distribution (retailer margins) but most of it in advertisment like print/TV/Digital advt, event sponsorship and celeb endorsement contracts.

[JayS]

I have never understood the utility of lifafa in press. Cause a lifafa is a lot more useful when it comes to a politician and not a reporter. No.

Its way of influencing masses. Subtle marketing. Coming from folks like Shiv aroor, majority of people think its all credible info. Its easier to dismiss or ignore company marketing. But this is not so easy for majority to differentiate from BS, if its coming from well known journos in well know media. In the case of fighter for example, pilots, engineers, babus, andaam janata, everyone gets i fluenced by such articles. If definitely affects people'sthinking at subtle level. I see people do not want to look beyond there nose tip and just take anything that they read in such articles as truth. Enough exposure of such marketing leaves impression on people's mind. Just see how people comment on SE MII acquisition vis a vis LCA articles. You will see how people still think LCA is dud while F16 will propel us into space age in no time, despite having zero knowledge of fighters. even aerospace engineers or AF officers sometimes are susceptible to this, who should know better.

Plus, these reporters are real cheap. 10-20% commision in any defense deal is a norm. Compared to that lifafas going to cheap journos is much smaller.

[shiv]

What a nonsense lifafa article!

I am in agreement with tsarkar that Aroor's pieces are looking more and more like sensational 'watch this space' paid articles.

With a massive increase in the number of defence reporters and articles - we now swallow every one of them and make then truth to be followed up. Suddenly one missile has started shuddering on LCA and another appears on the scene with one Tweet from Shiv Aroor.

[tsarkar]

...with hint of Detailed report soon...

Sir, I would rather wait for the wheat than flutter with the chaff.

I'll go a bit OT here with permission from all. In life, its important to separate the substance from hype. My parents and grand-parents insisted I research and find out the facts myself than listen to others, including them. My grand-father's farm in Terai a few hundred km from Lucknow had a wall to wall library of books. He made it a point on trips to Lucknow, Delhi and even UK to buy books. I shared the same principle with my children and will share it with my grandchildren. Don't go by what others or everyone else says. Find out the facts for yourself and use your own judgment to decide. That way, neither I nor my children ever succumbed to peer pressure or bad influences or ever made a bad financial decision.

[shiv]

I have never understood the utility of lifafa in press. Cause a lifafa is a lot more useful when it comes to a politician and not a reporter. No.

No. The reporters job is to get eyeballs to his paper/portal which then attracts advertisers revenue. Also paid article mention specific products. When the last "Maharaja of Mysore" - Srikantadatta Wodeyar died the article about his body being removed from hospital carried several references to the BMW that two separate people drove. The publishers of Indian Aviation once told me that it is not possible to survive without paid articles in the defence segment. But every portal does it.

[ashishvikas]

One caveat needs to be added to this- these are just the number of test flights being conducted by the prototypes. the in service squadron airplanes' flight numbers are not included here. The total Tejas fleet flight count will be higher now thanks to No.45 squadron.

Would be good to know how many flights Sq 45 have done so far.

JayS sir, may be around 500.. after watching the video where pilot mentioned 4000+ flights have been completed by Tejas out of which 3562 are by prototypes.

[Indranil]

Yes the Missile does, was it due to weight or Aerodynamic shape of the Missile, was wondering whether it was due to weight but then the R-73 also is equally heavy, so now the IAF is interested in ASRAAM

aero Interference. It happens. Obviously the missile and the aircraft separately are doing fine. But looks like the Israelis have dropped the ball on this issue. It was theirs to deal with.

+1

What a nonsense lifafa article!

A free trip (and may be more). But this is plain old marketing by MBDA.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Excellent Video about Tejas! Great to hear directly from Sq. 45 pilots about its superior capabilities.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 5747621%2F&

Hope springs eternal. Now only if we can get more inducted fast, we are going to see a change in mindsets. Once the IAF's homeboys fall in love, LCA will hopefully soar.

[shiv]

Hope springs eternal. Now only if we can get more inducted fast, we are going to see a change in mindsets. Once the IAF's homeboys fall in love, LCA will hopefully soar.

At about 4 min 42 sec the Wing Commander says "We are trying to operationalize this aircraft as soon as possible"

To me - a non expert, it means that the capabilities of the plane are still being explored and its exact role, weaknesses and strengths are being defined, which I presume will lead to a point where the IAF wil know exactly where the Tejas can be positioned as a platform and what sort of role it will serve either by itself or in combination with other aircraft.

I would like to see that "operationalization" done successfully so that when Tejas comes in numbers it can be put to use in the most effective manner.

[Dileep]

The build quality of the SPs are SUPERB!!

BTW, It was moi who coined the phrase about pilots who flew and not, right here on BRF.

[Marten]

Hope springs eternal. Now only if we can get more inducted fast, we are going to see a change in mindsets. Once the IAF's homeboys fall in love, LCA will hopefully soar.

At about 4 min 42 sec the Wing Commander says "We are trying to operationalize this aircraft as soon as possible"

To me - a non expert, it means that the capabilities of the plane are still being explored and its exact role, weaknesses and strengths are being defined, which I presume will lead to a point where the IAF wil know exactly where the Tejas can be positioned as a platform and what sort of role it will serve either by itself or in combination with other aircraft.

I would like to see that "operationalization" done successfully so that when Tejas comes in numbers it can be put to use in the most effective manner.

Shiv saar or deejay, if it is not a pain, could you also pen a few paragraphs on how a new platform is inducted and how this process of operationalisation is conducted.

[Aditya_V]

Ok now it makes sense hopefully we see the Python and Astra fired from LCA soon

[Kakarat]

...with hint of Detailed report soon...

Sir, I would rather wait for the wheat than flutter with the chaff.

I'll go a bit OT here with permission from all. In life, its important to separate the substance from hype. My parents and grand-parents insisted I research and find out the facts myself than listen to others, including them. My grand-father's farm in Terai a few hundred km from Lucknow had a wall to wall library of books. He made it a point on trips to Lucknow, Delhi and even UK to buy books. I shared the same principle with my children and will share it with my grandchildren. Don't go by what others or everyone else says. Find out the facts for yourself and use your own judgment to decide. That way, neither I nor my children ever succumbed to peer pressure or bad influences or ever made a bad financial decision.

I was just trying to tell you that you are looking for ASRAAM for Tejas in the wrong article just because it is being written by the same author. I never asked you to go by what others or everyone else says, you can research your self and find out your self

[Indranil]

Ok now it makes sense hopefully we see the Python and Astra fired from LCA soon

I don't know about Python. Astra integration will happen post FoC.

[KrishnaK]

I have never understood the utility of lifafa in press. Cause a lifafa is a lot more useful when it comes to a politician and not a reporter. No.

Its way of influencing masses. Subtle marketing.
...
Plus, these reporters are real cheap. 10-20% commision in any defense deal is a norm. Compared to that lifafas going to cheap journos is much smaller.

Influence the masses to achieve what ? Which masses have a say in the MoD decision making process ? Why not just add the reporter lifafa directly to the babus in the MoD. The masses could help in influencing stock prices, but orders from the MoD ?

[JayS]

Its way of influencing masses. Subtle marketing.
...
Plus, these reporters are real cheap. 10-20% commision in any defense deal is a norm. Compared to that lifafas going to cheap journos is much smaller.

Influence the masses to achieve what ? Which masses have a say in the MoD decision making process ? Why not just add the reporter lifafa directly to the babus in the MoD. The masses could help in influencing stock prices, but orders from the MoD ?

saar, you think OEMs depend on lifafa journalists for getting contracts..? Millions of dollars are distributed to many in the decision making process to oil the machinery. But if masses believe its a best product then its easy for everyone to justify acquisitions. Less eyebrows are raised, less fingers are pointed. Everyone feels happy. When politician goes to rallies for votes he can do chest thumping about it. The decision makers, soldiers, politicians come up from the same masses. If masses are opinionated, so would the decision makers. They are the subset of the same masses. It does matter. Marketing matters. Brand value matters. Today if GOI decided to go for F35 instead of F16, how many of those who are saying why we are buying 40 yr old junk would still oppose F35..???

[putnanja]

The build quality of the SPs are SUPERB!!

BTW, It was moi who coined the phrase about pilots who flew and not, right here on BRF.

I was just about to reply and mention that Dileep coined that slogan , and then saw that you had already replied.

Good to know that a BRFite slogan has spread far and wide!

[Kartik]

Really made me happy this morning to see the No.45 Flying Daggers' Tejas video..

- Looks like experienced pilots are being deputed to the squadron. 1 Grp Captain (Rangachari, the CO) and 1 Wing Commander (Tolani), 2 Sqn Ldrs (Kartikeya Singh and Samrat) known out of the 7 pilots in the squadron currently. This is similar to how the No.24 squadron acted as the gestation squadron for the Su-30MKI, helping train the nucleus of the future Su-30MKI squadrons.
- Sqn Ldr Kartikeya Singh is a qualified Fighter Strike Leader (FSL) - TACDE graduate
- Sqn Ldr Samrat is a qualified Flight Combat Leader (FCL) - also a TACDE graduate

Note how Sqn Ldr Samrat mentions the emotional bond that he's formed with the Tejas..spending an entire night with the crew on rectifying a snag that one of the jets developed. And then listening to Wing Cmdr Tolani talk about the capabilities..Its truly heartening to see this happen. Eventually these young but experienced guys will go on to become COs of other Tejas squadrons.

[ramana]

Would be good to know how many flights Sq 45 have done so far.

In general I think no Air Force publicizes the number of flights/hours put in by a squadron unless some milestone is achieved because that gives Intel agencies an idea of uptime and how much flying the platform and squadron are doing . For example how much flying does a J-11 or J-15 squadron do in a month, or a year. Or a Paki JF 17 or F-16.

No problem here. They sit mostly in hangers and when they fly in response to some move by India they crash.

[Raman]

Note how Sqn Ldr Samrat mentions the emotional bond that he's formed with the Tejas..spending an entire night with the crew on rectifying a snag that one of the jets developed. And then listening to Wing Cmdr Tolani talk about the capabilities..Its truly heartening to see this happen. Eventually these young but experienced guys will go on to become COs of other Tejas squadrons.

Well said Kartik. When these guys rise up the ladder and hold staff ranks, the mindset of the organization will really change regarding home-grown technology.

[Indranil]

I want to join the party. But the back of my head keeps reminding me, "the same was true of Marut". We are still not out of the woods.

But hey, we are on the right path. Hopefully, we don't get off-track again. Many serpents and enticing apples to side-step. Bade chalo!

[Rakesh]

Excellent Video about Tejas! Great to hear directly from Sq. 45 pilots about its superior capabilities.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 5747621%2F&

Post of the Year goes to you Boss. Fantastic. Thank you so much.

After seeing this, even Mk.1 is fine

[SaiK]

Mk1 ++ => Mk2

Two thumbs up!

[Dileep]

Why shouldn't the pilots be happy? It is the best flier. Radar is second best in range and best in performance. Other sensors equal or best of the lot. Pilot-Vehicle interface is the best.

It will be like driving a beemer after going through the ambys marutis and hyundais.

[shiv]

To me - a non expert, it means that

Shiv saar or deejay, if it is not a pain, could you also pen a few paragraphs on how a new platform is inducted and how this process of operationalisation is conducted.

Yikes. Please don't put my name side by side with deejay here - I am only an armchair warrior.

That said - over the years I have picked up some clues about what might be done with a new aircraft. I guess that it will start with things like reliability and maintenance of on board equipment when subjected to the wear and tear of squadron flying and laying down standards of what is to be expected. Then there will be exploration of the machine's envelope. Squadron pilots do not necessarily do things the way test pilots do and they may discover something new.

Then there will be other things that are unique to the LCA that pilots need to factor in in operational flying. I can only quote from interviews and stories of other pilots flying other platforms who succeeded because they knew the specific quirks of their machine well. For example the Sabre could out turn the Hunter but the Hunter had a better climb rate. So a pilot who got into a turning battle with a Sabre would find himself at a disadvantage but he could try and convert it into a climbing battle. (That is exactly what Alfred Cooke did kicking 3 Sabre asses over IIT Kharagpur in 1965) HF 24 pilots have pointed out how - at ground level the HF 24 could outrun a MiG 21. Gnat pilots spoke of its outstanding climb rate. Each of these can be defined only from knowing the flight characteristics of one's machine when flown with other aircraft. Tejas will no doubt fly with MiG 21, Mirages and Sukhois for this purpose. Meanwhile other squadron pilots will be tasked with finding out the Tejas's weaknesses and then tactics will be formulated to mitigate the weaknesses and highlight the strengths by avoiding certain situations or flying in a particular way. Strengths of the Tejas may be used to cover the weaknesses in other platforms (and vice versa) so as a mixed group they will be a potent force.

There will be other things to look at - maybe little quirks in the way the plane behaves while delivering munitions in different weather, visibility, temperature, weight and fuel state conditions. HF 24 pilots use to praise the manner in which it was a rock steady munition delivery platform. We have all read about how MiG 21s remained hidden from F-15s in Cope India while flying in close formation with Su 30s which were visible - but the MiGs then suddenly appeared. It s possible that from the front the Tejas is extremely stealthy. Part of operationalization would be to define exactly how stealthy it is and whether it is stealthy enough to be used as a platform to "kick the door down" or some such specialized role.

These pioneer pilots will lay the groundwork for future combat flying and they will need time to do that and may find issues that call for minor (or major) modifications that are implemented in later delivered aircraft.

[Marten]

Thank you for the great post. Very illuminative.