LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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shiv
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2017 20:22

Vivek K wrote:a) IA's treatment of the Arjun - the Arjun beat the T-90 in IA's "rigged trials", yet the IA ordered a 1000 more T-90s and effectively killed the Arjun.
b) Recent corruption charge against the retd IAF chief shows that the forces are clearly susceptible to "influencers". (Yatha Raja, tatha Praja type conclusion from this is natural to be drawn)
c) The inglorious Marut saga which is the direction that the IAF HAS sent the LCA to.
d) Statements from IAF chief of no Plan B - points to single minded focus on imports
e) Calling imported aircraft proven - was the SU-30 even an existing aircraft when ordered? Was there a risk that the plans would not even materialize? How proven is the Rafale - one war and it is proven? How do you "prove" an aircraft - do test flights, weaponization trials not help prove the aircraft? What we have read in the open domain and learnt from BRF interactions with pilots/HAL at Air India expos is that the LCA is at least as good as the M2K if not better.

These facts do not actually nail any single guilty party - particularly because a host of unrelated examples cannot prove anything in this particular case.

The fact that our nation is full of disruptors should also suggest that there could be many entities responsible for the mess. With respect may I point out that the fact of gau rakshaks and lynched Muslims does not prove that all Hindus support terrorism. These facts can be used to smear and paint, but not prove.

Of course people are free to blame anyone - including the air force - but I do want to point out that hitting out at the wrong but convenient bystander can be disastrous. I don't know if you have access to day to day news from India but a month or so ago a 5 year old boy was murdered in a school toilet in Delhi. The police moved rapidly and arrested a school driver who was in the area who is said to have sexually assaulted and slit the boy's throat. Within weeks it turned out that the boy had been murdered by a 11th std student aged 16 who had a history of anger management issues and who wanted the exams postponed. That is what I mean by jumping at the most obvious target.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby GopiD » 15 Nov 2017 20:29

shiv wrote:I just went for a tea break and the chaiwala suggested that it could be some MoD baboo/cabal who are most pissed off at RM dealing directly with IAF and could well have tried to interfere and sabotage. Both IAF and HAL can verify the truth of that report and find the source if need be. In the air force the person who does that will have his balls fried. Before going with flailing arms at the Air Force please consider how many people and entities might want to do this.

Of course the truth needs to come out and lies need to be shown up. But do show caution in the blame game lest you contribute exactly to the effect desired by the madarchods who are doing this. They are not stupid.


Thanks for those determined efforts to uphold logic and reason Shivji, as always.

I am almost a novice here and I got it right until there. It would all come down to the person/people who leaked the report (If there ever was a PPT i.e.). I am sure the source of this leak is being investigated as we speak. Remember how the NSA put a lid to all the leaks about our Nuc Sub launch a year back. This is too simple a plot if we start blaming the forces for this (though they very well would have made that cursed PPT and if they did, they need to be pulled up for that.

The above report linked by Nashji is beautifully written, crisp and clear. Recommended read.
Last edited by GopiD on 15 Nov 2017 20:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2017 20:31

Yesterday on WION I hear a retired army expert speaking about the LCA. He was talking shit. Clearly he did not know what he was talking about. To me this brainless comparison of 6 hours versus 59 minutes Tejas combat sortie cannot have come from a genuine knowledgeable Air Force source . It is too stupid and incredible. Even wannabe enthusiasts can see that it is bullshit. I doubt if the air force would have come up with a story that no one with any inkling of aircraft sorties would believe.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby GopiD » 15 Nov 2017 20:35

shiv wrote:Yesterday on WION I hear a retired army expert speaking about the LCA. He was talking shit. Clearly he did not know what he was talking about. To me this brainless comparison of 6 hours versus 59 minutes Tejas combat sortie cannot have come from a genuine knowledgeable Air Force source . It is too stupid and incredible. Even wannabe enthusiasts can see that it is bullshit. I doubt if the air force would have come up with a story that no one with any inkling of aircraft sorties would believe.


What you say could be true, but if it was a "for and against" model PPT, there could have been some exaggerations just to put the point across. Although I am no sure if the Journo would have conjured up all those things without some input/leak from someone inside. Afterall, he took NSA's name in the article.

P.S. Apologies in advance if I am talking too much. I mostly try to be a mute spectator and not talk unless I could contribute to the discussion. But, in this case, I thought emotions are running a bit too high for all of us and we need some voice on the side of reason. JMT.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2017 20:40

GopiD wrote:What you say could be true, but if it was a "for and against" model PPT, there could have been some exaggerations just to put the point across. Although I am no sure if the Journo would have conjured up all those things without some input/leak from someone inside. Afterall, he took NSA's name in the article.

Just speculating on the "expertise" of the "expert" who made the alleged presentation that IIRC we on BRF are describing as ppt. I do not recall any mention of ppt in the report. Willing to be corrected here. A planned presentation could have been scribbled notes on a scrap of paper. The media will not say. But if it was air force the person will be nailed

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby GopiD » 15 Nov 2017 20:45

shiv wrote:
GopiD wrote:What you say could be true, but if it was a "for and against" model PPT, there could have been some exaggerations just to put the point across. Although I am no sure if the Journo would have conjured up all those things without some input/leak from someone inside. Afterall, he took NSA's name in the article.

Just speculating on the "expertise" of the "expert" who made the alleged presentation that IIRC we on BRF are describing as ppt. I do not recall any mention of ppt in the report. Willing to be corrected here. A planned presentation could have been scribbled notes on a scrap of paper. The media will not say. But if it was air force the person will be nailed


Did read about some leaked PPT on this thread, could be from Dileep sir. But yeah, the leak needs to be fixed and I am sure it will be.

This is the link posted by Nashji. https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/11 ... metic.html

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2017 20:48

Vivek_K.... Tyagi was the fall guy in the Agusta case . The Babu/Neta combo is all prevailing and powerful. Defence officers are pawns to push a certain agenda. Do u seriously beleive Def officers can influence the babus..they are far too clever for the Def off !!! What does Babu/neta combo gain from 'make in india' ? IMHO in the present case, the babus seem more guilty than the netas as PM/Doval seem pretty corruption free. the Netas think themseleves of as permanent in the governance structure ...the netas come and go. Modi may be there after 2019 or maybe the old gang returns. Delay till 2019 and then see how the things pan out...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2017 20:50

i meant the Babus consider themseleves as permanent fixtures...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 15 Nov 2017 21:08

Manjgu - we always resort to this babu vs officer thing to deflect and distract. I have no inside information in the Augusta case and no axe to grind. My only motive is to see the Arjun and LCA in service. Growing up, I had (like us all) friends/relatives who were higher ups or children of high ups in armed forces. So we learn a little here and there. The warfighter is not at fault in any of the forces - it is the procurement system that is corrupt.

So instead of lashing out at each other as overzealous patriots/apologists or as over zealous corruption finders, we need to look at the facts. And the facts here point to the outcome - LCA has been effectively killed by the IAF - just like the IA killed the Arjun and the IN killed the NLCA.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby GopiD » 15 Nov 2017 21:14

Vivek K wrote:Please allow me to add in a few points Vivek.

a) IA's treatment of the Arjun - the Arjun beat the T-90 in IA's "rigged trials", yet the IA ordered a 1000 more T-90s and effectively killed the Arju. I am inclined to believe in the Arjun saga that there is something more to the picture of MBTs that we aam abduls aren't aware of. The reason could well be not to our expectations, but I think it is enough for the Army as an organisation/MOD to not induct in numbers.


- b) Recent corruption charge against the retd IAF chief shows that the forces are clearly susceptible to "influencers". (Yatha Raja, tatha Praja type conclusion from this is natural to be drawn) Painting a whole organisation as corrupt for transgressions of a few would only weaken our country. If it was me, I would hold the individual responsible and not tar the organisation, but tensions are running high and its a desponding situation, so we all react accordingly. I am sure everything will become clear in a week or two.

c) The inglorious Marut saga which is the direction that the IAF HAS sent the LCA to. I agree that Marut should have been pursued no matter how bad the aircraft was (It wasn't as bad as they portrayed it to be), however, we still don't have a builder's airforce. However, I think this is a complex subject and needs a prolonged discussion and viewing from different stake holders sides.

d) Statements from IAF chief of no Plan B - points to single minded focus on imports Please read this article. https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/11 ... metic.html

It clearly states why we need SEF and I would probably agree with the chief on this, however, he shouldn't have made "No Plan B "comments when contract negotiations were on with Rafale group. It just weakened our position and I agree that the previous chief should be pulled up for it, but not the organisation


e) Calling imported aircraft proven - was the SU-30 even an existing aircraft when ordered? Was there a risk that the plans would not even materialize? That was a different time with different set of friends and foes. It was a good decision for its time. We have the advantage of hindsight.

How proven is the Rafale - one war and it is proven? How do you "prove" an aircraft - do test flights, weaponization trials not help prove the aircraft? What we have read in the open domain and learnt from BRF interactions with pilots/HAL at Air India expos is that the LCA is at least as good as the M2K if not better. I think the truth lies in the middle here about Tejas capabilities to be all/end all solution for our airforce. Again, please read the above article and the author makes very good points

One of the air chiefs has called the LCA a 3 legged cheetah, one called it Mig-21++ and so on.

Respectfully Sir, it is extremely naive not to know the character of our nation - we grow up in an environment where bribes are paid on a regular basis for government functionaries to perform their required duties. With respect Vivek, if our forces are only as good as any other citizen in our country, our country would have been 15 different countries by now. There are always black lentils.


They are just my thoughts/opinions. Please feel free to correct me wherever I am wrong.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 15 Nov 2017 21:28

Thanks for the response Gopi. Problem is that you're adopting the perspective of the "over zealos patriot" here. You are trying to defend IAF's/IA's actions over Indian interests. Your belief in the institution over country may be clouding your views - no flame bait just a though perhaps.
a) The Arjun saga has been analyzed by all experts inside and outside and there is no justification available. The CAG has also brought out that the T-90 costs were hidden to make it look cheaper than Arjun (a criminal action in itself). The Army itself reported that the Arjun bettered the T-90 in 90% of trial evaluations - yet they killed it. Come there are many on BRF that are not aam abduls and therefore stating " there is something more to the picture of MBTs that we aam abduls aren't aware of" doesn't work here.
b) So are you saying that corruption is top down or bottom up? The Augusta scandal is ugly and problematic. I would be happier than you if it isn't symptomatic! But neither nor you know the entire details - only what is published in the media. I have stated that "the warfighter is not to be blames in any of the forces". So the blame rests squarely on the procurement mechanism.
c) You just deflect the Marut saga, the lack of Plan B (which could be the LCA), purchase without question of an import that was merely on the drawing boards (SU30) but not the LCA that is tested by IAF's own pilots.

My friend, the truth is that the IAF has killed the LCA and its future serial development - that is effectively the end of the AMCA (and future aircraft) which will remain like a post doctoral student's CFD project.

IAF is stating that it does not want a domestic military Industrial complex! And that is what we need to write about.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Nov 2017 21:49

shiv wrote:
A blame game is the last thing that is needed. What is needed is understanding.

FONT SIZE 500 required, but this should suffice now.
One point I would like to add. Long back when I was leading a vendor selection for an Insurance giant, the VP in insurance gave me an interesting tip (that being my first project and that too with firangs)
There will be few vendors who will be having very nice sales team but not so great product/after sales and then there will be vendors with not so nice team but very nice product & after sales.

This is what differentiates HAL from firang OEMs, who bring nice and beautiful sales paper speaking in flawless angrezi and all dressed up for the wow factor without having a shit idea about what they are selling (very much like the Nicolas cage in Lord of War). And there comes a malyali speaking (no offence ) SDRE who might be dressed up in sandals bought from indiranagar mkt selling. He may have a great product and if given enough incentive/danda can do things far better for country. But we all know the reality ...this I think is make or break for LCA as this debate might decide the fate of SEF, Tejas MK2 and future course of Indian MIC.
Yesterday saw congress alleging corruption in Rafale deal. I strongly support them even without evidence. Stop the import addiction. Let's for all decide if our scientists are incapable of defending our borders then let china and pak take them. No need to fight it. National aspirations should be based on national capabilities.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 15 Nov 2017 21:53

^^^^+1e06!

Remember there can be no AMCA without LCA first. There will be no Kaveri without these developments either. So GTRE will happily sit and reseach developments of GTX1437U for ever and ever without ever flying it.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby GopiD » 15 Nov 2017 22:08

Vivek K wrote:Thanks for the response Gopi. Problem is that you're adopting the perspective of the "over zealos patriot" here. You are trying to defend IAF's/IA's actions over Indian interests. Your belief in the institution over country may be clouding your views - no flame bait just a though perhaps.


I am a patriot, you got that right, thanks. I am not saying that we shouldn't criticise anything or anyone. All I am trying to say is that don't pull the organisation down for a few individual's transgressions, that is all. From experience, I have understood that every institution is a set ideas for a few and an image/mirage for others. An organisation can be made/outmade by enhancing/denting its image. Alas, we are really bad at maintaining an image or keeping up a reputation and it shows from the lay person to the highest organisation. All that we are doing here is denting an organisation's image whose majority of personnel are ready to lay their lives for us. What respect am I showing towards the majority of them when I tar the whole organisation and to what end?" I would probably ask myself before making such comments. Would I or anyone else join/send their kids to protect this country if we all think the armed forces are corrupt? "

b) So are you saying that corruption is top down or bottom up? The Augusta scandal is ugly and problematic. I would be happier than you if it isn't symptomatic! But neither nor you know the entire details - only what is published in the media. I have stated that "the warfighter is not to be blames in any of the forces". So the blame rests squarely on the procurement mechanism.


Yeup, we don't know the details and we are believing reports from a corrupt media to tar an organisation of National Defence. (If you have sometime, please go through the Media and NGO thread in the GDF section to know how corrupt the media is before trusting their reports).

Procurement mechanism here is the MOD Vivek, not the IAF. Yes, if the reports are to be believed, then IAF has made some uncharitable comments about Tejas, but they haven't gone ahead and cancelled the orders or said anything against Tejas as an organisation. Heck, the chief SOC flew the Tejas just today. Why don't we see any adulation for his nice gesture and sticking to Tejas? Are we missing the Woods for the Weeds here?

You just deflect the Marut saga, the lack of Plan B (which could be the LCA), purchase without question of an import that was merely on the drawing boards (SU30) but not the LCA that is tested by IAF's own pilots.


Sorry if that is the impression I am making. I have to do a lot of reading before I talk about Marut saga and I am not saying its not IAFs fault. I did say that IAF should have pursued the project and it was their shortsightedness, but I am talking from hindsight. We are all prisoners of time, both individuals and the organisations we run.

JMT.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 15 Nov 2017 22:31

Gopi,

Again - it is great that you are a patriot and I thank you for that. However, please do not get bogged down with the institution. The MOD does not select the aircraft or evaluate/fly potential buys. The IAF chief has enough powers to procure the aircraft of the IAF's choice and overrule the MOD's choice when necessary. So please don't hide behind babus. It is very hard to buy the argument that MOD killed the LCA - that honor rests solely with the institution.

What we must keep foremost in our mind that producing 100s of LCA is required to grow an aviation MIC that is in its infancy. That brings a quality of its own with improvements through feedback in manufacturing procedures, improved quality control and innovations in the product. Producing a small batch does no one any good - least of all to the unit price. If the same lines can be easily switched from LCA to AMCA, that makes the overhead smaller and unit price lower. IAF seniors flying LCA is good to see but that still does not reverse the attitude of the procurement brass.

Buying a SEE (or the Rafale) when the LCA is available should be criminal and I bet you that when history of this period is written - it will blast the country's leaders for it. Instead India should have looked to buy techs from these countries to add to the LCA.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gyan » 15 Nov 2017 22:37

manjgu wrote:Vivek_K.... Tyagi was the fall guy in the Agusta case . The Babu/Neta combo is all prevailing and powerful. Defence officers are pawns to push a certain agenda. Do u seriously beleive Def officers can influence the babus..they are far too clever for the Def off !!! What does Babu/neta combo gain from 'make in india' ? IMHO in the present case, the babus seem more guilty than the netas as PM/Doval seem pretty corruption free. the Netas think themseleves of as permanent in the governance structure ...the netas come and go. Modi may be there after 2019 or maybe the old gang returns. Delay till 2019 and then see how the things pan out...


I agree 1000%

I feel This IAF presentation and leak has been orchestrated at the behest of MoD Babus. The military is still tooooo disciplined to go against any Govt Policy. Babus ask certain persons in Forces to slant their reports so that it can be used to affirm predetermined decisions. Even Agusta was like that. IAF Chief was just a small fish in the pool full of crocodiles in that deal. Nowadays, The super confidence of Dalals in all type of deals from Rifles to Fighters is stemming from corrupt Babus & lack of experienced advisors in Modi Govt at political level.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby GopiD » 15 Nov 2017 23:02

Vivek K wrote:Gopi,
please do not get bogged down with the institution.


Any country in itself is a bunch of such institutions Vivek. But, I know what despondence feels like and I feel your angst.

The IAF chief has enough powers to procure the aircraft of the IAF's choice and overrule the MOD's choice when necessary.


I have read enough to know that this isn't true.

So please don't hide behind babus. It is very hard to buy the argument that MOD killed the LCA - that honor rests solely with the institution.


IAF hasn't said that it is abandoning the LCA program and I haven't seen any statements from IAF alluding to it.
There would be 100s of corrupt babus to one corrupt IAF staff. What should we do to them then? Abandon MOD?

Please read the article I linked to know the role of Tejas and whey we need an SEF.

What we must keep foremost in our mind that producing 100s of LCA is required to grow an aviation MIC that is in its infancy. That brings a quality of its own with improvements through feedback in manufacturing procedures, improved quality control and innovations in the product.


No arguments there.

Buying a SEF (or the Rafale) when the LCA is available should be criminal
I am no expert on this subject, but I have been following the MMRCA saga for the last 12 years to know that Rafale and Tejas comparison is Apple to Oranges one. I am skeptical about F16/Gripen superiority to Tejas though. JMT

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SaiK » 15 Nov 2017 23:56

^^^^^&^^

What is true for us(at least few of) all is false for the niche select core who take decisions. We have bigger holes and potholes..impossible to fix w.o deep s....strikes

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby nachiket » 16 Nov 2017 03:10

We like to compare the LCA story with the Marut, warning that the LCA should not go the same way. But in many respects the Marut was treated much better by the IAF. They actually bought 140 of the type despite it having a serious handicap (engine) which could never be rectified.

The LCA on the other hand has no such serious issues and even in the Mk1 form provides a capability much superior to the scores of Mig-21s and Mig-27s that the IAF still operates. Despite this the confirmed orders stand at 40.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 16 Nov 2017 03:30

Manish_P wrote:
Avarachan wrote:The Tejas program is on the verge of major success, after all. I think this "single-engined fighter" procurement will be canceled and the Tejas will receive a total order of 300-400+.


If/When that happens, aapke mooh main ghee-shakkar, Sir. 300-400 kgs mithai from my side to BRF-ites :wink:

Take it from me, don't make promises you can't keep. You will be reminded every time you visit BRF. They call me Admiral not out of respect :)

ArjunPandit wrote:And there comes a malyali speaking (no offence)

I am offended now Saar. I am a Malayali :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 16 Nov 2017 03:42

Avarachan wrote:Many people simply do not understand how ruthless the world of geopolitics and the arms business is. For instance, one of the reasons Yugoslavia was destroyed in the 1990's was that its Novi Avion project (a single-engined version of the French Rafale) would have been competition for the F-16 C Block 50/52. Because Yugoslavia was broken up, the Novi Avion project was canceled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Avion


How India Outfoxed Pakistan And Scuttled A Sweet F-16 Fighter Jet Deal From The US
https://swarajyamag.com/books/how-india ... rom-the-us

This case study is just one example of the corruptive—but thoroughly legal—behaviour of the Octopus. It will sink its suctioned feet into any client that will pay it. Everyone and everything is sullied with money. No transaction or representation is completely transparent. Nowhere is that more evident than in the case of the US–India nuclear agreement, inked in 2005 and approved in 2008. Almost a decade later, the only beneficiaries of this deal are arms traders. No nuclear power plant has even broken ground. I blame the Octopus for this.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Nov 2017 04:00

nachiket wrote:We like to compare the LCA story with the Marut, warning that the LCA should not go the same way. But in many respects the Marut was treated much better by the IAF. They actually bought 140 of the type despite it having a serious handicap (engine) which could never be rectified.

The LCA on the other hand has no such serious issues and even in the Mk1 form provides a capability much superior to the scores of Mig-21s and Mig-27s that the IAF still operates. Despite this the confirmed orders stand at 40.

Good point. May I use this?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Nov 2017 04:18

Rakesh wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:And there comes a malyali speaking (no offence)

I am offended now Saar. I am a Malayali :)

There are no malyalis here, there are only bharat-rakshaks :P

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby nachiket » 16 Nov 2017 04:27

Indranil wrote:Good point. May I use this?

Of course.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 16 Nov 2017 04:54

JayS wrote:
JayS wrote:OK guys. Listen to this at 10.00 min. Coming from DCOAS AM Bhaduria, its quite credible. And this is the second instance that I have heard this from an IAF officer. Hope it comes to reality as expected.

"AMCA is coming next year, it will fast tracked"

:mrgreen:



Also good to see top brass of IAF appreciating how LCA is helping the desi MIC build up and AMCA will be the next big step in the correct direction.


So AM Bhadauria took a ride in LCA today. This is the kind of moral support from IAF, LCA can use. Turns out he was Test pilot for LCA in initial years. Another good one to see a test pilot raising up the ranks and occupying very important position in IAF top brass.


It would seem there are various fractions within the IAF. Some like AM Bhadauria are supporters of indigenous programs and there are others who are not. Who will come out the winner remains to be seen over the next couple of years.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby manjgu » 16 Nov 2017 07:36

Vivek K ... majority of us at BR will pitch for LCA, Arjun etc. But the fact of matter is that IAF chief or for that matter any chief has no powers to over ride / overrule MOD. The MOD is the final arbitrer of any deal unless ofc there is a strong Def Min. The chiefs at best may make recommendations but the MOD rules...they can reject a perfectly good weapon system on some grounds and once a dissent note comes on the file, its very difficult to overrule it. The MOD does not even have to write a dissent note..its enough for them to sow a seed of doubt abt the system on the file..and torpedo it. They can reject a perfectly good weapon system on any ground... and also induct a poor system citing some reason depending on how their interests are being served. I have seen service chiefs standing like peons in front of junior flunkeys in the ministry. If my memory serves me right the IA didnt pitch for the Bofors gun but it was inducted. Similarly as in the vid AirMshl Kak clearly says IAF didnt ask for SU30 but was inducted citing geo strategic reasons...there are 100's of such examples. Last year i met a 3 star naval officer at vizag ( my school mates brother) who said inspite of pleading before Def Secy for critical equipment the Def Secy plainly said the eqpt will not be inducted under his watch !! the Def Secy said i understand the nature of request but it cant be met. They will have to wait for the next Def Secy. The Def Secy was shortly to be transferred out of the MIn and he said he does not wanna get involved. If u talk to any IAS officer about the Def offrs..u have to see the contempt/derision in their eyes.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2017 07:49

Common now.
Its not like MoD is like God.
Decisions are taken by the Cabinet for large arms purchases.

Su30 MKI decision was taken by PVNR as he wanted to ensure a good plane is purchased and keep the Russain factory alive.
Does AM Kak(R) think Su-30MkI was wrong aircraft? Which one would he want and was it available?
Don't tell me the scam ridden Mirage 2000.
Yes the IA preferred a French and Bofors. And the latter was chosen by Rajiv Gandhi.
He fixed a lot of people to make that choice.

I am sorry that the officer stood like that in front of a flunkey. But by warrant of precedence he should not have.
A service chief at General level is much higher than the flunkey.
We managed to get rid of vidur or he would have provided insight.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby manjgu » 16 Nov 2017 08:04

ramana...neither was Bofors a bad gun ..the point i was making its the Babus ( alongwith Netas) who are the final arbitrers. there was nothing good about the SU 30 when it was selected .. the thought was more about keeping russian factories alive. it was again the netas who ruled. the point i was trying to make is that the service has very little say in procurement, they may though recommend a system.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Manish_P » 16 Nov 2017 08:33

Rakesh wrote:Take it from me, don't make promises you can't keep. You will be reminded every time you visit BRF. They call me Admiral not out of respect :)


Don't worry Admiral, I will not allow them to make me a Wing Co :-)

I did say Kgs and not tonnes. And I didn't specify the F22 of mithai either, it will be just the humble LCA version onlee ;-)

Anyway, in a strange way, I am glad to see the daily news 'reports' on IAF dissing LCA, IA not wanting Arjun.. Kind of feels like we must be doing things right and getting the wrong kind of people all sorts of panicky. I hope I am right. Time will tell..

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2017 08:37

Manjgu, Got it.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 16 Nov 2017 08:40

manjgu wrote:. there was nothing good about the SU 30 when it was selected ..

I just want to interject here to point out that the IAF does not seem to maintain an institutional memory/record of the decisions that led to teh selection of certain aircraft and how much trouble those aircraft were initially and how they required modification to become capable. So you will find that the CAS of today was a young boy/baby when the Gnat was selected and has little idea of how the Gnat was selected and what problems it gave. I record of this would IMO help prevent the repetition of the same errors.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2017 10:29

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-4939375/

we must stop this SEF seeking! They can wait for Mk2 and focus on Rafale and Sukhois, and other upgrades. READ THE STRONG FOCUS ON "NEED FOREIGN SEF"

SEF is LCA space. Mk2 or Mk3.. whatever. load factors comparison is unnecessary spec comparison.
70% of LCA is still FOREIGN, Dear Forces.

squadron reduction sudden a problem after spending 16 years in selecting MMRCA

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2017 10:44

Looks like same data as in leaked press reports
Only this time talking to senior IAF officer.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby manjgu » 16 Nov 2017 10:49

on a side note...my dad retired as a 2 star officer from IAF and also worked with Perspective Planning in IAF. as a child whenever I saw my mom dad fight..my mom always taunted my dad "lagta hai aaj ministry ho ke aaye ho" !! which made my dad shut up and seethe... he was awarded a PVSM as he highlighted and put stop to huge financial trickery being carried out by HAL for long wrt maintenance of IAF a/c. He got into a flap with the MoD Babus and also a retired IAF officer ( IIRC) on this account was who heading HAL that time but the then IAF chief Dilbagh Singh or was it Katre recognised his contribution.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 16 Nov 2017 11:25

I stumbled across a fantastic project that many have probable never heard of,which was deliberately scotched by the US aerospace industry .It was the most rveolutionary fighter at the time,with no equal and even today bests the performance of the JSF.Ck into the Vclip of Canada's amazing AVRO Arrow.
Death of the Arrow,canada's biggest mistake in Canadian aviation history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDvZu50HvLs

There are now proposals to revive the project watch on:
Will the Arrow fly again?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7kVizC3ZGM

Why I've posted these clips is because there is an uncanny resemblance to what is happening with the LCA today,where an truly indigenous design,an affordable low-cost fighter ,a good replacement for the MIG-21 class of bird,is being deliberately sabotaged yet again by the US! The LCA is not the best fighter flying by any means,but just what the doctor ordered for India to make up its numbers ,replacing hundreds of of retiring MIGs.Pakistan is doing the same,modernising with its JF-17,of which 2100 are in service.India cannot afford to make the mistake that Canada did and become totsal slaves to foreign OEMs.The promise of the AMCA is just that,a promise that we may see kept or denied 15+ years from now.The LCA is with us. madam NS,are you watching?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Venkarl » 16 Nov 2017 11:49

sum wrote:
brvarsh wrote:I say HAL should be given a list of friendly nations that it can sell Fighter Jets to and let them build LCA for foreign countries that need such a fighter. Let them manage it as a business, get funding and build upon it. It will also serve a purpose very critical - Let them fail on their own and realize what it means to deliver by the promises they make.

Do you really believe any country will touch it with a barge pole when own air force is putting out not too flattering info about its capabilities?


I am not sure if this is a right and wise idea but in the long term it will benefit indigenous development by and large....what if GoI comes up with a 4th command (ala USMC) which will use only indigenous defense products (IDP)? Tri-services command in Andaman might be a good start for air and land defense products. Navy anyways supports indigenous products. This might be a bit heavy on GoI's wallet in the beginning but in long run it will playout well for indigenous capability and capacity..say by 2040. Army and Airforce will have to think twice before saying no to IDP. But i am afraid people would call this a "chaarana chicken ke liye baarana masala" types idea.

Or

GoI should mandate X percent of Tank Regiments reserved for Arjun and Y percent of Squadrons reserved for LCA....and slowly build vertical indigenous wings within AF and Army. Once these IDPs mature and pose tough competition to phoren maals...IDPs can then be expanded horizontally and systematically.....btw..reservations are not a new thing for us..Indian Politicos have mastered it :P

On a side note...critical labs and agencies in DPSUs should choose and employ scientists and engineers on merit and not on reservations :mrgreen:

Main motive of these ideas is to keep IDPs alive and make 'em grow in capability first and then in capacity.

P.S.
USMC operates hornets & f35s (Naval LCA MK2 with multi role capabilities)
USMC operates Abrams (Arjun MK2/3)
and many examples like Excalibur rifles, 155mm ATAGS, IFVs, LCH and Rudras etc

Apologies if these were already discussed and dumped

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chola » 16 Nov 2017 12:07

Yes Filipov, the US sabotaged the LCA by making its development drag on for the better part of three decades because ADA designed something that HAL couldn’t make at the time tied to a turbofan that GTRE couldn’t make even now.

Yes, the US sabotaged the program by supplying the F404 when the LCA decoupled from the above said engine.

If you need to bring up the JF-17, then note the Blunder’s first flight was 2003 while induction was 2007.

The LCA’s first flight was in 2001 with an American F404. So whose fault is it that it took another damned 14 years before we could induct a single LSP of the Tejas? Who kept it from being inducted four years later like the JF-17?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 16 Nov 2017 12:33

Sanctions regime earlier,but now why the indecent haste for an SEF,...going back to the future with the lobbying for the F-16?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kashi » 16 Nov 2017 13:22

Chola, you do realise that Indian scientists working with the LCA were asked to leave and leave behind the work they had done. That also set the Tejas project back.

In your understanding, does it qualify and sabotage or not?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chola » 16 Nov 2017 13:44

Kashi wrote:Chola, you do realise that Indian scientists working with the LCA were asked to leave and leave behind the work they had done. That also set the Tejas project back.

In your understanding, does it qualify and sabotage or not?


Yes and no. The mere fact that they were in the US doing LCA work meant they had given help when we asked. You think we were not helped between 1985 and 1998? When we had people in the US working on components and testing them at US airbases?

Granted Pokhran created issues with US policy and brought sanctions that impacted an amount of progress after 1998 without doubt.

But can we weigh that against all the help provided by the US in years prior and say it was a net loss? I seriously doubt that.

At any rate, the LCA flew three years later in 2001. The plane was there, it was flying. With an American engine.

Whatever the hell happened in the decade and a half after had nothing to do with the USA.


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