LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23574
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SSridhar » 18 Nov 2017 13:42

Great work Shiv. There must be a civilian pressure too to make the forces accept products like the Tejas. Your video would go some way in making civilians understand the debate well. I will point to many friends your video.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9467
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Nov 2017 14:54

It is not a healthy idea that we have to force something on armed forces who have to risk their lives on the systems we select and they shall have some serious say in these matters. But in this case, if there are no real problems with LCA I think there is nothing wrong in putting pressure on MoD to buy them. After all the decision lies with MoD and not with IAF.

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 221
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby arvin » 18 Nov 2017 14:57

Nice video shiv. Good description of Tejas vs mirage and others. Liked the sarcasm about Jaguar acquisition also. Good idea to put footage from bahrain air show.
On another note, todays TOI has a tender from MES, BLR for furnishing accomodation for LCA squadron in Sulur.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4117
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 18 Nov 2017 16:04

shiv wrote:Thanks for the positive comments people

Indranil wrote:Hakeem,

VEry well done. The narrative in the above video will make a great article. Would you like to publish it?

Thanks. Good idea. Funnily enough I actually typed out the text so there is already a ready-made article that just needs some additional points. Thanks for the suggestion.

Good video!

Indian DDMs need to be called out. They shouldn't just publish words of "senior sources" without verifying the facts. Too much one sided. Poor journalisic practice and ethics of DDMs.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 18 Nov 2017 16:57

This month gonna be record breaking, even more test flights than Aug when they flew ~60 flights. In half the month, already 48-49 flights. LSP3/4/5/7 and PV6 flying like they are on steroids.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 18 Nov 2017 17:43

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:We also need to rebut the Gripen E and F16 as SEF are not viable due to schedule, technology and costs.
Tejas Mk1A leading to Mk2 is the best choice for India.
And what it takes to get there.

See below...

Vayu Aerospace - May/June 2017 issue
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/past_issues ... un2017.pdf

Page 66, Third Column, At Bottom

According to Commodore Balaji, design work on the LCA Mk.2 was moving apace with some major design changes envisaged to the intakes and fuselage so as to accommodate the GE F414 engine, a batch of which have recently been delivered to ADA. The LCA Mk.2’s wings will be moved out board by about 350mm, increasing the space between fuselage and wings, thus optimising load transfer and allowing for an increase of fuel (700 kg) in the central fuselage. Detailed design should be complete by 2019 and requisite raw material had already been ordered by ADA which aims to carry out the LCA Mk.2’s first flight in 2020-21. The full scale mockup of the LCA Navy Mk.2 should be ready by early 2018.

Making a direct reference to Saab, the intrepid designers at ADA believe that they are "at the same stage" in terms of time and effort as are their Swedish counterparts with their Gripen M.


Vayu Aerospace - Jan/Feb 2017 issue
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/past_issues ... eb2017.pdf

Page 64, Second Column, At Top

The F-16/Gripen E: These pose the most direct threat as they are generically similar i.e. single-engine, single-seat, to the Tejas, particularly the Tejas Mk.2. However these aircraft have put on between two and three tonnes since their inception and are no longer the cheerful things they were though they remain very effective for global wars. We need something smaller and simpler. Again in their non selection, the reason was probably political. Having gingerly disengaged from the Russian Bear it is hardly wise to rush into the arms of the American Grizzly! Both these countries are large enough to twist our arms! The Gripen too, like the Viggen earlier, is “sanctionable”. I am also leery of buying any single engine warplane from the West. These things cost half their weight in gold and single engines have a five time higher attrition rate than twins in peacetime. Still, if I had to choose, I would take the Gripen.


Is this valid anymore..? Multiple sources indicate things are on back burner now as far as MK2 is concerned.

SiddharthS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 62
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 15:45

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SiddharthS » 18 Nov 2017 18:09

Bharat Karnad has talked about swarm drones earlier and when he said " IN THIRTY YEARS MANNED COMBAT AIRCRAFT WILL BE FULLY EXTINCT " ,it seems he was talking about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV5vtd4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw

This is just the beginning ,in thirty years it'll be even more lethal.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 18 Nov 2017 18:48

SiddharthS wrote:Bharat Karnad has talked about swarm drones earlier and when he said " IN THIRTY YEARS MANNED COMBAT AIRCRAFT WILL BE FULLY EXTINCT " ,it seems he was talking about this
.

Too many people make predictions that they will not be able to stand by because it is too far ahead. I have hear nonsense like "Wars will be fought with laser guns by the 1990s". Manned aircraft are NOT going to become obsolete. In fact someone in the US said F-35 will be the last manned fighter :rotfl: Now they are looking at Scorpion.

IMO you cannot predict future weapons without knowing what future enemies will do.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 18 Nov 2017 18:49

SSridhar wrote:Great work Shiv. There must be a civilian pressure too to make the forces accept products like the Tejas. Your video would go some way in making civilians understand the debate well. I will point to many friends your video.

Thanks Sridhar - that was my intention. Maybe I will cross post in the other forum in "Indian Interests" thread or something

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 727
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby csaurabh » 18 Nov 2017 19:19

SiddharthS wrote:Bharat Karnad has talked about swarm drones earlier and when he said " IN THIRTY YEARS MANNED COMBAT AIRCRAFT WILL BE FULLY EXTINCT " ,it seems he was talking about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV5vtd4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw

This is just the beginning ,in thirty years it'll be even more lethal.


Nano drones have absolutely no range or payload for combat. Really not worth talking about.
UCAV is different thing. Basically like F16 without pilot.

SiddharthS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 62
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 15:45

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SiddharthS » 18 Nov 2017 19:40

Anyone who is following the strides that have been taken by the artificial intelligence would not be so relax about it.
By the way,people were also pessimistic about the vertical landing of rocket.
This is not confined to the size ,the core of the technology is AI.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2017 19:55

JayS wrote:I was going to reply to ramana's post about setting up mfg plant in BLR, that if GE manufactures F414 in India it would be most probably in Pune. Nice video. I haven't seen that before.

One big advantage India can offer as far as high-tech manufacturing is, we have tons of engineers available at cheap cost. We can provide decent design/mechanical engineering capabilities to each and every small manufacturing unit (along with obvious Production engineering capability). Many SMEs in Europe/US suffer a lot due to lack of inhouse engineering capability and tend to work sub-optimally (especially those Tier2/3 suppliers which make-to-print). We can practically make each centre as integrated engineering and manufacturing center and we perhaps should work on this model.

Yes exactly. And GE has set up its own shop in India - no partnership with another Indian company. There are advantages and disadvantages to such a system. But the end goal is achieved - productionisation of the GE F414 engine in the country. No need to wait for engines to come from the US, build them in India only. If a component goes down and replacement is needed, one can get them much quicker. Translates to quicker turnaround time.

JayS wrote:Is this valid anymore..? Multiple sources indicate things are on back burner now as far as MK2 is concerned.

2018 and 2019 will be good years for the Tejas program. Second line will be up and operational by 2019. I believe FOC will be achieved in 2018. No major issues / make or break issues are left for FOC to arrive. ACM Dhanoa has said that Mk2 is coming. Right now, I am going to go with that. He is the Chief, so he likely has more inputs into the program than any chailwallah.

As per Cmde Balaji, Mk2 is supposed to complete design by 2019 and will fly by 2021. By that timeframe, we should have an answer on the Kaveri/M88 program as well. We can achieve all this and the GOI will see payoffs. IAF squadron strength will be on the uptake as well, with a steady production of the Tejas. We are on the cusp of greatness. Don't stop now. Shano Varuna!

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 18 Nov 2017 20:09

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:Is this valid anymore..? Multiple sources indicate things are on back burner now as far as MK2 is concerned.

2018 and 2019 will be good years for the Tejas program. Second line will be up and operational by 2019. I believe FOC will be achieved in 2018. No major issues / make or break issues are left for FOC to arrive. ACM Dhanoa has said that Mk2 is coming. Right now, I am going to go with that. He is the Chief, so he likely has more inputs into the program than any chailwallah.

As per Cmde Balaji, Mk2 is supposed to complete design by 2019 and will fly by 2021. By that timeframe, we should have an answer on the Kaveri/M88 program as well. We can achieve all this and the GOI will see payoffs. IAF squadron strength will be on the uptake as well, with a steady production of the Tejas. We are on the cusp of greatness. Don't stop now. Shano Varuna!


What I meant is around that time everyone was saying the same thing. In AI-17 in February there were many tall claimed made by everyone with unbelievable certainty. But now, after 5-6 months, things looks not so rosy anymore. In fact look worse.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3858
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 18 Nov 2017 20:41

Swarm drones have mulitple uses. From air defence to battlefield usage as guided weapons themselves and these are just small examples.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2017 21:58

JayS wrote:What I meant is around that time everyone was saying the same thing. In AI-17 in February there were many tall claimed made by everyone with unbelievable certainty. But now, after 5-6 months, things looks not so rosy anymore. In fact look worse.

Yes agreed. But the recent events of the past few weeks - 1) Raksha Mantri asking the Vice Chief about what they are doing now about sqn shortage; 2) the realisation that SEF will take too long and will be too expensive; 3) the fact that Tejas induction can be achieved at a much quicker pace than SEF; and 4) follow on order of 36 Rafales will be equally quicker as well, as there is no need for MoD to jump through the hoops of 11 stages - is all coming to a head now. The realization has sunk in. The GOI has to figure out how to navigate out of SEF in a diplomatic manner.

That can be achieved via accelerating the naval fighter competition. Only the Rhino has a clear shot of winning this, as it is the only aircraft whose wings fit in the lifts of the Vikramaditya and the Vikrant. Award the contract to Boeing onlee. In the same vein, award the tanker contract to Boeing as well. The KC-46 is perfect for the IAF. Down the road, get more Chinooks and Apaches as well - another win for Boeing. And get that last C-17 before the clock runs out. Yet another notch for Boeing.

With GE now confirming that F414 will be license produced in India, LM losing the SEF contract will have no real consequence. This idea that F-16 is tied to the DTTI is a moot point now. That is already happening from GE via the Pune facility. We are not going to get anything beyond that and that was never expected anyway. DTTI on carrier tech (EMALS and other goodies) is already progressing well.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby NRao » 18 Nov 2017 22:11

Remotely piloted vehicles (RPV) are in use already. Outside the lab swarms are not very common. They will become fairly soon.

GE manufacturing facility in Pune is meant for civilian applications (platforms is what GE refers to), no Def related product is manufactured there and none are planned. Two items of interest: 1) as the second vid posted states, the manu plant supports 4 GE business units. A potential problem is that GE - today - is going through financial problems and to resolve that they are planning on selling a few business units. One of them could be their locomotive unit (parts of which they have already sold). 2) Related to GE Def engines - 404/414 - their GM stated, during AI-17, that at most 70% of the 414 would be made in Pune *provided* they got enough orders. Expect the enhanced 414 to be made in India - that was part of the deal - no matter how many India decided to order. But, not all of the enhanced 414 will be made in India - much like the Brahmos.

A quick note on "education". Was doing some simple legwork for a friend. There are at least 300,000 jobs related to "high tech" in India (not counting IT). But pretty much all are employed by foreign companies. Performed done rudimentary research - looked at job openings, etc. Most, if not all are from these foreign companies. What we found was that fresh graduates needed training, but youngsters were very easily trained. They expect this number to grow to 500,000 by 2025ish. So, if a foreign company can invest in training a fresher, so can an Indian entity. I suspect the reason the Indian companies are not training these kids is that the goals of the Indian companies are a few gens behind those of their foreign counterparts. Which is not the case in IT.

The GE plant in Pune seems to have the latest techs - additive, etc. And they are doing very well employing Indian graduates.
Last edited by NRao on 18 Nov 2017 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Surya » 18 Nov 2017 22:13

Guys maybe Imissed it - where is the link to GE414 production

TIA

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2017 22:14

Previous page of this thread. Vayu article. My post towards the bottom. On mobile phone now, so hard to repost. I am sorry.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Surya » 18 Nov 2017 22:17

Danke Admiral

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7354
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2017 22:25

You are welcome Surya. This is great news, because in there Nitin Jain clearly states that they will be producing (only screwdrivergiri) the F414 in India - whether in Pune or another location in India is secondary. Award Boeing the naval contest for 57 F-18s and another win for GE.

With regards to the EPE and EDE variants, India will never get any gyan from GE on them anyway. But if India selects that engine for the F-18 or AMCA....that will come.

Brar: do we know if it is the Advanced Super Hornet that is on offer for the naval competition? And will the Advanced Super Hornet have the EPE variant of the F414?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7479
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby brar_w » 18 Nov 2017 23:38

Boeing is proposing a Block III Super Hornet for the IN. The engine enhancements for the USN are not a part of their funding stream just yet and is unlikely to be as part of a specific block (like Blk III). It will be a stand alone program probably in the 2020s to introduce upgrades across all the F/A-18E/F and EA-18G fleet. I don't expect the USN to invest in it whole heartedly till such time that it is done buying airframes. Priority is to right size the SH fleet so only upgrades that can be cut into production relatively quickly and with little or no risk (like avionics upgrades, new helmet, adding TNTT networking, radar modes, IRST etc) get through while longer lead time upgrades will be moved till post completion of the acquisition program.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 18 Nov 2017 23:52

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:What I meant is around that time everyone was saying the same thing. In AI-17 in February there were many tall claimed made by everyone with unbelievable certainty. But now, after 5-6 months, things looks not so rosy anymore. In fact look worse.

Yes agreed. But the recent events of the past few weeks - 1) Raksha Mantri asking the Vice Chief about what they are doing now about sqn shortage; 2) the realisation that SEF will take too long and will be too expensive; 3) the fact that Tejas induction can be achieved at a much quicker pace than SEF; and 4) follow on order of 36 Rafales will be equally quicker as well, as there is no need for MoD to jump through the hoops of 11 stages - is all coming to a head now. The realization has sunk in. The GOI has to figure out how to navigate out of SEF in a diplomatic manner.

That can be achieved via accelerating the naval fighter competition. Only the Rhino has a clear shot of winning this, as it is the only aircraft whose wings fit in the lifts of the Vikramaditya and the Vikrant. Award the contract to Boeing onlee. In the same vein, award the tanker contract to Boeing as well. The KC-46 is perfect for the IAF. Down the road, get more Chinooks and Apaches as well - another win for Boeing. And get that last C-17 before the clock runs out. Yet another notch for Boeing.

With GE now confirming that F414 will be license produced in India, LM losing the SEF contract will have no real consequence. This idea that F-16 is tied to the DTTI is a moot point now. That is already happening from GE via the Pune facility. We are not going to get anything beyond that and that was never expected anyway. DTTI on carrier tech (EMALS and other goodies) is already progressing well.


I'll hold my horses. :)

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2017 06:18

Surya wrote:Guys maybe Imissed it - where is the link to GE414 production

TIA


2010, when the 414 was selected: GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program

John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement."

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7479
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby brar_w » 19 Nov 2017 06:20

The contract for the "rest" has not been signed yet.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2017 06:31

But, everyone seems to hold something back. Part of the ToT scene.

​AERO INDIA: New Delhi continues work on stealthy AMCA

India is forging ahead with its most challenging fighter programme, the development of its low-observable Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Director of New Delhi’s Aeronautic Development Agency C.D. Balaji says that the great majority of work for the shape of the AMCA has been completed.

The biggest challenge involves the development of Radar Absorbent Material (RAM).

He alluded to New Delhi’s challenges in the area of radar cross section (RCS) reduction in comments about the collapse of the 2012 deal to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters.

There were several issues that caused the Rafale deal to collapse, he says, but he specifically pointed to France’s unwillingness to part with a proprietary RAM that is applied to the Rafale’s canopy. Had the deal moved forward, Rafales completed in India would have been sent to France to receive the coating.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2017 06:33

brar_w wrote:The contract for the "rest" has not been signed yet.


Point I am trying to make is that no matter what, some parts will always be imported. Despite the claim if ToT. And that in the case of the INS6 it would be about 30%.

Let us move on. I do not expect the INS6 to matter.

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5604
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 19 Nov 2017 07:56

Answering late:
1. Cobham radome performed exceptionally well, but there is no ToT planned AFAIK. No idea on what NAL is doing. Since I am pretty sure that no phoenix feather is embedded in the cobham radome, it should be possible to easily reach 90% performance in a couple of iterations. What I hear is that the root cause was manufacturing issues.

2. I stand by the reading that MK2 as we know (bigger airframe with stronger engine) is dead. What are the going to do with the engine(s) that are already here is a good question onlee. Maybe wait for Aam-Ka :)

Tejas belong to HAL now. The take-over, whatever that means, is over.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2017 08:28

Dileep wrote:Answering late:
.........

2. I stand by the reading that MK2 as we know (bigger airframe with stronger engine) is dead.


I agree.

What are the going to do with the engine(s) that are already here is a good question onlee. Maybe wait for Aam-Ka :)

.........


They could, and I expect them to, use them (at least 6 of them) in AMCA prototypes. They should be more than adequate.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19880
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2017 08:44

Can't understand why the same tech cannot be leveraged from the FGFA progr. if the French are unwilling.Even more unwilling be the Yanquis.We' be already parked some money in the JV.If the deal goes through it should link up with the dev. of the AMCA .I've also said that surely an LCA-S instead of the MK-2 be attempted drawing upon the common stealth tech being developed.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2017 08:51

tSir Philip,

I think the only thing the Indian Labs are interested in the PAK-FA are the millions of lines of code used for data fusion. I suspect that is the outstanding element, that they claim they would reuse, in the AMCA. Perhaps some sensors.

"link up with the dev. of the AMCA ". :). I am betting that the Indian team can teach a few things to others.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 393
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 19 Nov 2017 09:19

Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’

On the recent reports about the LCA Tejas and the foreign single-engine fighter, where does the HAL stand? Is everything fine with LCA?

There is not much controversy about the LCA. HAL stands very strongly behind the LCA. We have established the production line capacity of eight aircrafts, the first five of them are already flying and have done more than 600 sorties. They are doing up. and we have kept things in place to produce eight and we are investing Rs 1,331 crore to increase the capacity to 16 deliverable a year. We have also used another concept of contracting the main components of the aircraft such as the front fuselage, centre fuselage, rear fuselage to L&T, WhAM, DTL.

We have placed the orders. If these guys start giving me the required top-quality product, that adds to my deliverables. Now question comes, how much order I have. I have 20 IOC, of which I will provide 11 to IAF by the end of this financial year, and that would leave me with 4 fighters and 4 trainers, and trainers’ SOP we hope can be concluded so that the production run can be there.

As far as the FOC order is concerned, mid-2018 is when FOC is expected to come but we are asking the customer (IAF) to allow us to cut the material. Because if we start now, the aircraft will come after three years.
By then, this AON of 83 LCA will be converted into a contract between the IAF and HAL. However, today the facilities are on and the rate at which jigs are created are available, and the purchase orders can be verified and checked.



What is the delay in getting the FOC now?

The aircraft are flying and the operational capacity enhancement requires a thorough verification. It is a developmental work and we are planning to fly 60 sorties a month. Now between IAF, ADA and HAL, we are ensuring that these many sorties happen.

While the promises are for getting the FOC by mid-2018, we will definitely get it by December 2018. We should then be able to supply these 20 FOC by 2022. And then on to the next 83… If capacities are put on depending on the configuration clearance, the numbers can be rolled out.

http://indianexpress.com/article/busine ... g-4944113/

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3223
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kakkaji » 19 Nov 2017 10:02

ashishvikas wrote:Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’

I have 20 IOC, of which I will provide 11 to IAF by the end of this financial year


So he is promising to deliver 6 more LCAs to the IAF by March 2018.

With all due respect, I find this an annoying habit of the current CMD of HAL to make tall promises that he does not keep.

A few days ago he said the SP-5 will fly within the next 3 days and SP-7 withing 10 days. It is now close to 30 days and, to my knowledge, neither has flown yet.

With the current situation for the LCA being dicey as it is, this gives more ammunition to the nemies of the LCA program.

I wish the CMD Sahib would speak only after a milestone is reached, and not before.

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5604
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 19 Nov 2017 10:05

^^This gives corroboration to the notion that ADA and HAL are sitting with a smug smile about the IAF article dissing Tejas.

HAL should be happy that their "line is loaded" to the full. ADA should be happy that they successfully delivered a great product, whatever the news report says. They want to move on. HAL is busy trying to meet its orders. ADA is busy trying to reinvent themselves with the Aam-Ka, Gha-tuck and whatever gizmoes they try to conceive.

So, who is really doing RonaDhona on this? It is us jingoes onlee.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 19 Nov 2017 10:57

Dileep wrote:^^This gives corroboration to the notion that ADA and HAL are sitting with a smug smile about the IAF article dissing Tejas.

HAL should be happy that their "line is loaded" to the full. ADA should be happy that they successfully delivered a great product, whatever the news report says. They want to move on. HAL is busy trying to meet its orders. ADA is busy trying to reinvent themselves with the Aam-Ka, Gha-tuck and whatever gizmoes they try to conceive.

So, who is really doing RonaDhona on this? It is us jingoes onlee.


Because we jingos think about the Nation, not organisations. If these orgs are content with doing only this much then they either deserve a hard kick in their butts and/or to be sidelined for someone else to take up whats needed to be done. Because clearly the Nation cannot stop only at this much.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 19 Nov 2017 10:59

Kakkaji wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’

I have 20 IOC, of which I will provide 11 to IAF by the end of this financial year


So he is promising to deliver 6 more LCAs to the IAF by March 2018.

With all due respect, I find this an annoying habit of the current CMD of HAL to make tall promises that he does not keep.

A few days ago he said the SP-5 will fly within the next 3 days and SP-7 withing 10 days. It is now close to 30 days and, to my knowledge, neither has flown yet.

With the current situation for the LCA being dicey as it is, this gives more ammunition to the nemies of the LCA program.

I wish the CMD Sahib would speak only after a milestone is reached, and not before.


I agree, its rather annoying. Especially the certainity that they say things like this with a straight face. There is no need for such chest beating in public.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 393
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 19 Nov 2017 11:13

Kakkaji wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’

I have 20 IOC, of which I will provide 11 to IAF by the end of this financial year


So he is promising to deliver 6 more LCAs to the IAF by March 2018.

With all due respect, I find this an annoying habit of the current CMD of HAL to make tall promises that he does not keep.

A few days ago he said the SP-5 will fly within the next 3 days and SP-7 withing 10 days. It is now close to 30 days and, to my knowledge, neither has flown yet.

With the current situation for the LCA being dicey as it is, this gives more ammunition to the nemies of the LCA program.

I wish the CMD Sahib would speak only after a milestone is reached, and not before.


Yes, CMD keep giving false promises.

By March-18, I'm sure they won't be able to deliver SP11.

When the March-18 will be about to reach, new timelines will be there like you have new FOC dates now.

arunsrinivasan
BRFite
Posts: 346
Joined: 16 May 2009 15:24

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby arunsrinivasan » 19 Nov 2017 12:22

shiv wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Rope in IITs and other educational institutions if you need to. We don't have a lack of brainpower in India.

Rakesh this topic has come up before and I have to point out, with due respect to our IITs that they are simply (currently) not doing the sort of advanced post-graduate work that graduates get trained in when they go abroad.

I have for long felt that this is a huge difference between medicine and engineering in India. You can sit in India and get advanced post-graduate training (or "graduate training" as they say in Amreeka.) But not in India. Yes - the IITs and IISc are doing some stuff as are a few others but we are not there yet.

Apparently what China did was to create special highly paid positions for Chinese trained and working in America so they could come back and enjoy an American lifestyle and money. I think it did work although it created friction with others who were in China without American training, and not getting Amreeki salary


I know this is OT but wanted to share some insights I have. My work & social circles in Chennai, bring me regularly in touch with IIT Madras - students, faculty & alumni. My work also gives me the opportunities to interact with lots of other Universities both public & private.

Hakeem's observations are correct but the situation is changing on the ground & quite rapidly in the last few years. There has been a huge investment by the Central Govt, IIT Management in rapidly increasing the PG student strength in the last few years. (I suspect this is true of all old IITs) Today the PG student strength is bigger than the UG strength. The focus is on the PG students & research by Faculty & PG students. This has been backed by substantial increase in stipends for PG students & money for research by faculty. One young IIT M faculty I was speaking to, shared that he is starting a tech venture in the IIT Madras Knowledge park, supported by the PG students, while continuing to be a full-time faculty. He essentially said that thanks to the funding & the resources available, companies could work with IIT PG students / Faculty to get them to work on research projects for extremely low-cost. His feedback was that the focus of the IITs has shifted from UG to PG, which many people are not aware off.

I have also seen that a few private universities are starting to do high-quality research, & have achieved some early success. In education we have moved from scarcity to excess & many private universities have realised that to survive in the future, they need to deliver quality & that is the only way to differentiate themselves. This competition is driving increase in quality at 'some' private universities. Also many of of the low-quality engg colleges & universities are shutting down. I know of one private University which is already doing world-class research in a few areas, & if this trend continues, we can expect a few world-class private universities in the next 10 - 20 years.

With these trends in the Govt & Private Universities, I expect over the next 10 - 20 years one can expect some (hopefully >10) world-class universities with strong research capabilities to emerge.

Not sure if this will give us immediate benefits for our Military program, but I expect in a few years, we can expect increasing support from at least some of the Universities in India.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 19 Nov 2017 13:06

ashishvikas wrote:Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’

On the recent reports about the LCA Tejas and the foreign single-engine fighter, where does the HAL stand? Is everything fine with LCA?

There is not much controversy about the LCA. HAL stands very strongly behind the LCA. We have established the production line capacity of eight aircrafts, the first five of them are already flying and have done more than 600 sorties. They are doing up. and we have kept things in place to produce eight and we are investing Rs 1,331 crore to increase the capacity to 16 deliverable a year. We have also used another concept of contracting the main components of the aircraft such as the front fuselage, centre fuselage, rear fuselage to L&T, WhAM, DTL.

We have placed the orders. If these guys start giving me the required top-quality product, that adds to my deliverables. Now question comes, how much order I have. I have 20 IOC, of which I will provide 11 to IAF by the end of this financial year, and that would leave me with 4 fighters and 4 trainers, and trainers’ SOP we hope can be concluded so that the production run can be there.

As far as the FOC order is concerned, mid-2018 is when FOC is expected to come but we are asking the customer (IAF) to allow us to cut the material. Because if we start now, the aircraft will come after three years.
By then, this AON of 83 LCA will be converted into a contract between the IAF and HAL. However, today the facilities are on and the rate at which jigs are created are available, and the purchase orders can be verified and checked.



What is the delay in getting the FOC now?

The aircraft are flying and the operational capacity enhancement requires a thorough verification. It is a developmental work and we are planning to fly 60 sorties a month. Now between IAF, ADA and HAL, we are ensuring that these many sorties happen.

While the promises are for getting the FOC by mid-2018, we will definitely get it by December 2018. We should then be able to supply these 20 FOC by 2022. And then on to the next 83… If capacities are put on depending on the configuration clearance, the numbers can be rolled out.

http://indianexpress.com/article/busine ... g-4944113/

600 sorties is close to what we estimated on BRF previously. Its rather impressive for 2yrs old Sq with only 5 jets, not all of which are there from day 1.

Some other things are simply too sad to hear from this. Trainer SOP is still not frozen. Metal cutting for FOC order waiting for SOP freeze. Really? You got to be kidding me. This way there will be slow down or gap in production after 16 IOC fighter are delivered. Looks like we will never learn. Better to import only.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4117
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 19 Nov 2017 14:24

^^^
The LCA production schedule doesn't look good at all. If the FOC is going to take till mid/end-2018, then the production line should have continued with IOC. What's the point of getting to 16/year then only to have to halt production till FOC is ready. Lead times are not being factored in at all time and time again!

20 + 20 orders are non-viable from production point of view. Too little to sustain continuous production run.

Mk1A is pretty distant at this point.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19880
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2017 17:24

When will the gun be certified?Essential for air combat.However the more that get into the air and are seen the greater the confidence in the corridors of power and decision-making.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests