LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby nachiket » 16 Dec 2017 04:50

The wings have integral fuel tanks.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rishi_Tri » 16 Dec 2017 07:04

Aditya_V wrote:Would like to look at Tejas and Su-30 together, would be some contrast.


If looking for static display photos of Tejas and Su 30 together: 2 from AI'17.

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/9 ... 2511447040

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 16 Dec 2017 07:15

FOC is an asymptote. You can only 'approach it' :)

Being said that, One more Derby firing, gun and IFR are the only missing check points IRC. Anything else? All the other work are ongoing development onlee.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Dec 2017 08:16

Rishi_Tri wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Would like to look at Tejas and Su-30 together, would be some contrast.


If looking for static display photos of Tejas and Su 30 together: 2 from AI'17.

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/9 ... 2511447040

Nice. Tejas looks 1/4th the size of the Su-30, except for the radome which is surprisingly big for Tejas

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Manish_P » 16 Dec 2017 08:44

The LCA is not in the below image but knowing that it is a tad smaller than the Mirage 2000, you might get a fairly good idea...

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 16 Dec 2017 09:14

Planes carry fuel in their wings

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Dec 2017 11:42

Manish super images

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 16 Dec 2017 11:54

Dileep, Gun firing.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Prasad » 16 Dec 2017 13:35

There's a picture from an old Ex Vajra with the MKI & Mirage 2000 next to each other on the ramp, taken side on in one of the BR galleries. Massive difference in size.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 16 Dec 2017 13:40

ramana wrote:Dileep, Gun firing.

They are going to do some ground tests before the year closes out and based on that take it to the air.

Derby firing within 2 months.

FOC is a moh-maya now. An occasion for VIP's to to take time of their busy schedules to dedicate the aircraft to the nation and their own names to some plaque.

Tejas production rate is being steadily increasing to 16 aircraft per year and IAF is accepting them as soon as they come. They are flying in excess of 70 test flights in every month and new capabilities are being cleared on a weekly basis.

The only things to do: sanctiov MK1A and Mk2 NOW. Increase MK1 orders to keep the assembly lines humming at full speed and beyond. Forget the SEF.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Manish_P » 16 Dec 2017 13:53

Aditya_V wrote:Manish super images


Putting some more Rambha and Menaka photos in the Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015 thread. They would have been shown on BRF forums earlier as well. But a thing of beauty.. needs to be seen again & again :wink:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 16 Dec 2017 20:19

ramana wrote:Dileep, Gun firing.

I sense a remarkable disconnect among the community regarding this. I hear two versions.

1) Gun is done onlee.. which could mean it is integrated and all functions verified. Which means, you can see the blip on the MFD, press the button on the stick and the gun will cycle.

2) The avionics are not yet fully qualified for gun vibration onlee. Which could mean (Uneducated guess onlee) we can possibly fly and fire the gun in level flight without crashing . But a number of other systems may suffer problems.

One interesting thing is, some 'qualification' as we know may be conditional like this. For example, we could possibly fly all regimes of IFR now, but may not be able to fly the full envelope with the probe sticking out of the nose. And the update I hear is that it is not yet resolved.

What we know is that the plane serves extremely well in the ground attack role, and the daggers are taking them to places, literally shattering earth. Rather than making up complaints, the brass should ask the daggers how many sorties they flew, what was the turn around time, what was the accuracy of the bombs etc.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 16 Dec 2017 20:25

Dileep wrote:
What we know is that the plane serves extremely well in the ground attack role, and the daggers are taking them to places, literally shattering earth. Rather than making up complaints, the brass should ask the daggers how many sorties they flew, what was the turn around time, what was the accuracy of the bombs etc.

And, if you ask my opinion - in the head on mode - coming in for attack - this guy is one stealthy customer

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 16 Dec 2017 21:26

nachiket wrote:Can the ASRAAM be integrated with the DASH HMCS?

It's lighter than the R-73 with around the same dimensions, so no problem carrying it on the LCA's outermost pylons. This is what happens when you own everything about the platform. We can decide to integrate almost any weapon available with the IAF on it as long as there is no weight/size limitation and are not hamstrung with issues like the Python-5 integration.


The lighter weight (~80kg) of ASRAAM would be better suited for one of the design studies with dual carriage for CCM and SPJ.
Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 23:21

From Anantha Krishnan

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/939464172265336832 ---> 4 Tejas variants undertook night attack missions for the FIRST TIME. Challenges of night attack were adequacy and acceptability of displays in cockpit for ops. Ops done through instruments. Algorithms fine-tuned. No new weapons tested.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/938758519578181632 ---> As a run-up to the FOC in 2018, Tejas LSP-8 is optimising flight profiles with the in-flight refueling probe (IFR). Air-to-air refueling trials will begin early 2018. First dry contact followed by wet trials. So far, LSP-8 flew 44 sorties with IFR.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 23:22

Also from Anantha Krishnan...

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/938655822858432512 ---> Ever since the Tejas prgramme overcame some of the biggest hurdles and cruised ahead achieving the targets, the anti-lobby consisting of MoD babus, foreign agents, sections in IAF, bought-over-journos & rootless experts flock together scripting tales denting its image.

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 23:25

Important (and Happy) Update from Anatha Krishnan....

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/941940720293654528 ---> 6th Series Production fighter from Tejas flightline (SP-7), had its first flight on Dec 12th. SP-5 from 2nd production line (Aircraft Div, HAL) will be next to fly. Platforms up to SP-10 are under equipping final assembly hangar. Stay tuned for more updates.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2017 02:10

Indranil wrote:The only things to do: sanctiov MK1A and Mk2 NOW. Increase MK1 orders to keep the assembly lines humming at full speed and beyond. Forget the SEF.

I'm utterly hopeful that the additional mk1 orders will come at foc mayawi event

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby thammu » 17 Dec 2017 10:55

Rakesh wrote:Important (and Happy) Update from Anatha Krishnan....

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/941940720293654528 ---> 6th Series Production fighter from Tejas flightline (SP-7), had its first flight on Dec 12th. SP-5 from 2nd production line (Aircraft Div, HAL) will be next to fly. Platforms up to SP-10 are under equipping final assembly hangar. Stay tuned for more updates.


IDRW reports ......LCA-Tejas-SP-5 has started ground level testing in anticipation of its first maiden flight by end of this month ........

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2017 11:02

New year gift?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 14:13

Steady deliveries every month will derail any attempt to scuttle the LCA. THE IAF , if it truly behind the bird, must embed its team to assist in the production phase as well as familiarizing itself with the bird by its maintenance command.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Khalsa » 17 Dec 2017 14:59

ashishvikas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I am assuming you mean SP-5? I would like to know as well. We need someone to compile & maintain a running list of SP aircraft that join No 45 Sqn and future squadrons. Good to know how the numbers are stacking up against production claims.


Sir, I had been maintaining a list and maybe you are looking for something like this.

No. 45 Squadron Indian Air Force (Flying Daggers)
First flight Dates for Tejas-LCA
SP1: 01 Oct 2014
SP2: 22 Mar 2016
SP3: 28 Sep 2016
SP4: 03 Mar 2017
SP6: 30 June 2017
SP7: 12 Dec 2017
SP5:
SP8:
SP9:
SP10:
SP11: targeted by 31-March-18.



Thank you both for asking and answering.

It would go well for them to begin equipping 18 squadron the moment they reach 16 aircraft.
I believe there is benefit in turning over IAF squardons to the LCA types.
Since our media loves to
"Mujhe 42 squadron chaihye varna neend nahin aatee."
We should turn this into Tejas %age of those 42squadrons.

Either way heart warming to read the numbers above.
Apologies if someone has asked before. Why is SP5 delayed and out of sequence ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby fanne » 17 Dec 2017 16:55

My take next squadron will start forming when the current will reach half its strength (I.e 10 planes). This is what IAF did for su30mkis). Granted trainer (2 in number in each sq) was not needed for su30s as they are double seated, but for lca also we are not making/counting trainers as of now. I think no 18 will go up with the 11th plane

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby thammu » 17 Dec 2017 18:14

Khalsa wrote:

Apologies if someone has asked before. Why is SP5 delayed and out of sequence ?


idrw wrote:....LCA-Tejas-SP-5 was first aircraft coming out of the second production line and was facing technical issues due to workmanship issues leading to suspended ground trials a few months back.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kersi » 17 Dec 2017 18:17

Rakesh wrote:
Kersi wrote:What will be base of Tejas after Sulur ?

The second squadron (No 18 Flying Bullets) could very well be at Sulur onlee. Like Lohegaon AFS for the Rambha (Su-30MKI) and Rambha-lite (Su-30K), Sulur AFS could serve as a model for future airbases that house the Tejas.


Yes. Like Lohegaon, Sulur would be a conversion base. The sqdn come to Sulur, converts to Tejas - about 2-3 years and then sent to a "forward" base.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Dec 2017 18:54

One question to Gurus on LCA Tejas - Trainer.

What is pending for Trainer aircraft SOP ? Is there any FOC planned for Trainers ?

http://indianexpress.com/article/busine ... 4113/lite/

T Suvarna Raju says : Now question comes, how much order I have. I have 20 IOC, of which I will provide 11 to IAF by the end of this financial year, and that would leave me with 4 fighters and 4 trainers, and trainers’ SOP we hope can be concluded so that the production run can be there.

Also, in a squadron, are we going to have 4 trainers ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 17 Dec 2017 19:04

Philip wrote:Steady deliveries every month will derail any attempt to scuttle the LCA. THE IAF , if it truly behind the bird, must embed its team to assist in the production phase as well as familiarizing itself with the bird by its maintenance command.

Saar,
Why do you want the straightforward IAF officers and men to get frustrated with the civilian way of working, time slippages, contractor slyness.
The officers will only be really upset when they see how sloppy things are.

Never step into the kitchen, just enjoy the dishes at the dining table, I say
You'll never be able to make the wife's cooking any better, the way the masala is mixed will leave you with a lot of angst onlee

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Dec 2017 23:28

#TejasUpdate #4 by @akananth

SP-8 to SP-10 are under equipping at Final Assembly.

SP-11 & SP-12 to join soon.

LCA Div developed interchangeability tools for all 147 panels & 830 pipelines out of 934 pipelines within the build of first 7 SPs itself.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942449178537484288

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 23:46

Ashish Saar: Excellent news. Thanks! Just a friendly reminder to update your list, as soon as first flights are completed. In the absence of other info, we will go with that measure to indicate induction of SP aircraft into No 45 Sqn.

On a slightly different issue - not good news. This should have been done. Perhaps IR or Dileep can shed more light on this if possible.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942453231103352832 --> Points to ponder | Even after delivering 6 SPs by HAL, Standard of Preparation (Build to Print Documents) for Tejas have'nt been frozen, despite IOC nod in December 2013. Over 270 modifications post-IOC, in the name of concurrent engineering.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Dec 2017 23:55

Tejas platforms till SP-12 will enter equipping stage soon
By: Anantha Krishnan M

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/amp/news ... ssion=true

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 18 Dec 2017 03:57

Rakesh, is that what was earlier described as an "engineering nightmare"? At what point does concurrent engr. end and a full fledged bird arrive with its manuals just like a motorcar?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Dec 2017 05:29

Philip wrote:Rakesh, is that what was earlier described as an "engineering nightmare"? At what point does concurrent engr. end and a full fledged bird arrive with its manuals just like a motorcar?


Good question Philip...

Rakesh is this also because of the feedback from the flight engineers in 45 Sq?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Dec 2017 05:32

Dileep wrote:
ramana wrote:Dileep, Gun firing.

What we know is that the plane serves extremely well in the ground attack role, and the daggers are taking them to places, literally shattering earth. Rather than making up complaints, the brass should ask the daggers how many sorties they flew, what was the turn around time, what was the accuracy of the bombs etc.


Question to all - based on the above how does the LCA compare with the Jaguar in the ground attack role?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Dileep » 18 Dec 2017 07:00

This 'change of drawings' is very normal when you start production. Those who have done only screwdrivergiri of matured platforms may not have seen it. That is all.

Reviewing an RFQ for an LRU in a commercial aircraft, I am astonished to see the number of changes it went through AFTER qualification and launch, years out into series production. As long as the proper configuration management practices are there, nothing to worry.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 18 Dec 2017 07:14

Perfect, thank you Dileep. BTW, have you seen this list by BRFite ashishvikas? I have added my notes in colours. I know SP-7 has just recently had her first flight, so she has yet to join sqn service with the Flying Daggers.

SP1: 01 Oct 2014
SP2: 22 Mar 2016
SP3: 28 Sep 2016
SP4: 03 Mar 2017
SP5: Next to Fly as per tweet from Anatha Krishnan
SP6: 30 June 2017
SP7: 12 Dec 2017
SP8: under equipping at Final Assembly as per tweet from Anatha Krishnan
SP9: under equipping at Final Assembly as per tweet from Anatha Krishnan
SP10: under equipping at Final Assembly as per tweet from Anatha Krishnan
SP11: Targeted by 31-March-18.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Dec 2017 07:58

Dileep wrote:This 'change of drawings' is very normal when you start production. Those who have done only screwdrivergiri of matured platforms may not have seen it. That is all.

Reviewing an RFQ for an LRU in a commercial aircraft, I am astonished to see the number of changes it went through AFTER qualification and launch, years out into series production. As long as the proper configuration management practices are there, nothing to worry.



Thanks Saar.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 08:30

ks_sachin wrote:Question to all - based on the above how does the LCA compare with the Jaguar in the ground attack role?

Jag advantages:
1. Longer range
2. heavier load
3. safety of twin engine

Tejas advantages:
1. Better high altitude performance
2. Ability to take off and operate from airfields where Jaguar cannot take off
3. Potential to integrate new smart munitions

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby suryag » 18 Dec 2017 08:43

Sirs now that the tejas is sering squadron service and line pilots using it is there any comparison between darin 2/3 on the jag and the accessories on tejas for ground attack(ldp, mfd etc)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Dec 2017 09:12

shiv wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Question to all - based on the above how does the LCA compare with the Jaguar in the ground attack role?

Jag advantages:
1. Longer range
2. heavier load
3. safety of twin engine

Tejas advantages:
1. Better high altitude performance
2. Ability to take off and operate from airfields where Jaguar cannot take off
3. Potential to integrate new smart munitions



Thanks Shiv Saar,

So based on the above, and despite there being some shelf life left in them Jags, and assuming some tactical tweaks - could the Jags be replaced by LCA for the DSP role..
What range are we envisaging the Jags bombing in a deep strike mission? The range is the only thing that strikes me as being a real advantage ATM.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2017 09:51

ks_sachin wrote:What range are we envisaging the Jags bombing in a deep strike mission? The range is the only thing that strikes me as being a real advantage ATM.

Jags were selected to cover all of Pakistan in an era when we were not looking at China at all. We will need a completely new platform - heavier than Tejas. Rafale fits the bill. Su-30 works - but it is more of an air dominance platform. That said we made our "interceptor" MiG 21s into effective ground attack platforms - so why not Su 30?

But when we talk of China we cannot simply look at platforms first. We need to look at what are the types of targets and where they are and what we need to achieve i a conflict. .

The nearest eastern China cities are 2000 plus km away. It is unlikely that we will be hitting China cities in a war. During the Doklam crisis it was argued that since Indian cities are within range of Chinese aircraft, India should aim to put their cities within range of our aircraft. As a rhetorical argument this is good.

But when you look at practice you find that Chinese aircraft that refuels over Tibet that can fly 500 km into India puts a lot of Indian cities within their range. But for an Indian aircraft to do that we not only need planes with over 2000 km radius (radius, not range) - those 2000 will be flown over Chinese controlled territory.

So if we are planning to simply drop 6x 500 kg bombs then it is not worth it.

In a war with China, it is my opinion that we will simply have to crush Chinese warfighting ability in Tibet. For that purpose we need lots of aircraft with 500 km radius of action and some planes with 1000 km radius to reach places like Golmud where the Lhasa railway line starts. So I see a good role for Tejas over Tibet. No one seems to talk about it much (other than Indranil) but I think Tejas will have excellent high altitude performance. It will be able to dance in the sky at 15,000 to 18,000 feet better than most aircraft and will be small and stealthy and difficult to detect in mountain clutter.


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