LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 20:24

JayS wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
A question if I may with the objective of increasing my knowledge. Was something new being done with SP 5. Wouldn’t the new line just be a carbon copy of the old line and employ the same processes and practices. Is it a question of trained staff and new staff being trained for new line and working in a new team ?


There is no easy convincing answer for this. Both men and machines need some time to fine tune for new work (or in this case new man/machine for old work, but for them this is new work anyway). That's true even when men are seasoned and machines are very well known factors, let alone being newbies. Aircraft assembly have simply too many steps. Its almost impossible to get them all right in first attempt. But obviously setting up second line is easier than setting the first one. This current first line is being operated for well over a decade now while it grew slowly. For second one the starting curve is steep due to compressed time despite being copy paste job. Give it an iteration or two to get in the groove.


Yes these teething issues always need some time and experience to iron out. No substitute for doing it with your own hands. I was just curious if any anecdotes could be shared.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3643
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chola » 19 Jan 2018 20:52

Gyan wrote:It seems in last 10 months only one LCA has been produced by two production lines? The total LCA that are expected to be produced in 2017-2018 is around 3. Hence my past comments, hated by everyone here, that HAL production capacity is only 4 per annum and even that limited production line is incomplete, is coming true by empirical evidence.

2017-2018 -3
2018-2019-4
2018-2019-5
2019-2020-6
2020-2021-7
2022-2023-8
2024-2025 First MK-1A might fly.



So technically HAL is right in that it will “double” production by 2019 -2020 — from 3 to six!

http://www.janes.com/article/73293/hal-aims-to-double-production-of-lca-over-next-three-years

HAL aims to double production of LCA over next three years

Rahul Bedi - Jane's Defence Weekly
23 August 2017

HAL is looking to increase production of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft from 8 to 16 platforms per year from 2019-20

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52816
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2018 22:14

Akshay, A new facility requires lots of effort for people and machinery yo be trained. For small lot like 5 planes the learning curve is very steep. I don't have my learning curve tables with me but any industrial engineer can verify this.

So SP5 taking long time is expected. And troubles during acceptance trials also.
Good they are not rushing it.
In my opinion, it will take 36 months for a complex product to have first roll off. Less than that will have latent defects leading to recall.

A Deshmukh
BRFite
Posts: 279
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:24

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby A Deshmukh » 19 Jan 2018 22:21

better to find and fix defects now, than finding when IAF pilots are flying them.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7462
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 19 Jan 2018 23:52

Gyan wrote:It seems in last 10 months only one LCA has been produced by two production lines?

Don't know how you count. In the last 10 months (mid of March'17 o mid of Jan'18): SP4, SP6 and SP7 have been handed over to IAF. There is a reason why people make fun of you.

SP5 is an anomaly, and there are deliveries getting stuck behind it. In the next 2-3 months, 4 more LCAs will be added to the flight line. 3 of them (SP5, SP8 and SP9) are almost past the equipment phase. SP-10 has already entered equipment phase. So in 2017-2018, they would have delivered 7 aircraft, one more than initially planned. They are not actually ahead of schedule. Line 2 was not initially planned, because there were no firm intent/orders for Mk1A and no need to increase production past 8 per annum.

I would be surprised if they can Make Mk1A fly before mid-2019 though. Therefore to start delivery of Mk1As from 2020 is a very steep target. So grab some popcorn and enjoy. It won't be a bad show.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7462
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 19 Jan 2018 23:56

A Deshmukh wrote:better to find and fix defects now, than finding when IAF pilots are flying them.

The flying daggers are an awesome squadron. They are married to the aircraft. They sense that what they are doing is very rare in the history of IAF and the country. You have heard how pilots have said that they stayed up all night with the technicians trying to fix something. What a feeling it must be to be part of a national project at this juncture.

There are pilots elsewhere who want to join the squadron.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7462
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 20 Jan 2018 00:43

Akshay sir,

In this particular case, it is experienced hands (from the HAwk line) with a new machine. They know how to get things going and catch up. I am told that their paperwork etc. is more immaculate than Line 1. The issue with SP5 will be something small. Like give so much time after a certain step is finished before starting the next. Or two steps which are just out of order. With the Hawk line too they had similar issues. But they caught up and delivered the last Hawks ahead of schedule. So don't worry about this ones.

Tejas serial production is a generation ahead of anything that India has ever produced. It is also much more detailed. You asked for an anecdote so let me give you two. You know that the SPs outperform all the LSPs/PVs/TDs due to their smooth panels and fit. But just before the visit of the Singaporean defense minister, they had a problem. They called all the LSPs back from the detachment (you guys saw pictures from the partially finished testings). They grounded all SPs. They found that none of the LSPs had this problem. Interestingly, the cause was found to be tight tolerance on the SPs. A technician on the assembly line had made a small mistake and that was all. It was quickly fixed and all LCAs returned to flying. The Singaporean defense minister loved the plan and was very gracious in his comments. The detachment will continue once again. Except this time they will have the longest ferry flight that they have undertaken with loadout. These kind of things are part and parcel of developing highly sophisticated machines.

The second anecdote is a personal one and a bit OT but may be more similar to what is happening with SP5. I changed the transmission fluid on my SUV last summer. It is not very difficult, simple set of steps on a well established machine. I have done this on other cars several times now. It worked well all through summer. Around mid-Sept, I drove it into the mountains. I camped for two nights. The temperature was cold, around -10 degrees. When I tried to drive it out, the auto-transmission was grinding, somewhat like when you try to change gear without depressing the clutch enough. After about an hour or two of driving, it became alright again. But I had to solve the problem, because my family loves the mountains and we go there often. The level of self-preservation has heightened recently in my household (we have a baby). If the car breaks down, SHQ will kill me with her bare hands. After much of Google searching, I found that people who were facing the same problems basically had low transmission fluid. But, I had just changed my transmission fluid and checked for leaks. I did not know what else to do. So, I put in more transmission fluid and behold: I had no problem when I returned to the mountains recently when the temperature was much lower. Turns out there was one step wherein I did not spend enough time when I changed the fluids the first time. In this step of the process, the oil gets into parts like the solenoid pack. Since I had changed the fluids on smaller cars earlier, this process would finish relatively early. On my bigger vehicle, I had to just be more patient.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2639
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Jan 2018 00:52

Indranil wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:better to find and fix defects now, than finding when IAF pilots are flying them.

The flying daggers are an awesome squadron. They are married to the aircraft. They sense that what they are doing is very rare in the history of IAF and the country. You have heard how pilots have said that they stayed up all night with the technicians trying to fix something. What a feeling it must be to be part of a national project at this juncture.

There are pilots elsewhere who want to join the squadron.

Stuff like this should be put in SM/books/movies to inspire a generation to take things farther

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jan 2018 01:25

Indranil wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:better to find and fix defects now, than finding when IAF pilots are flying them.

The flying daggers are an awesome squadron. They are married to the aircraft. They sense that what they are doing is very rare in the history of IAF and the country. You have heard how pilots have said that they stayed up all night with the technicians trying to fix something. What a feeling it must be to be part of a national project at this juncture.

There are pilots elsewhere who want to join the squadron.


Indranil,

Is the sq operating out of Yelahanka? I heard of a purpose built facility to house squadron at HAL.

Are there HAL / ADA staff deputed to the squadron?

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4124
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JayS » 20 Jan 2018 02:06

ks_sachin wrote:
Indranil wrote:The flying daggers are an awesome squadron. They are married to the aircraft. They sense that what they are doing is very rare in the history of IAF and the country. You have heard how pilots have said that they stayed up all night with the technicians trying to fix something. What a feeling it must be to be part of a national project at this juncture.

There are pilots elsewhere who want to join the squadron.


Indranil,

Is the sq operating out of Yelahanka? I heard of a purpose built facility to house squadron at HAL.

Are there HAL / ADA staff deputed to the squadron?


No. From HAL itself. Since the Sq is operating out of HAL, there is no real need of deployment. Though I dont know if there is any on paper deplyment. SPs' hanger is right next to LCA's assembly line.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2505
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Katare » 20 Jan 2018 02:21

Kudos to IR!!!! Great job sir!!!!

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2320
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cybaru » 20 Jan 2018 02:48

Do pilots get to see and participate in their bird getting ready through the line? That would be an interesting bonding experience.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jan 2018 03:14

Cybaru wrote:Do pilots get to see and participate in their bird getting ready through the line? That would be an interesting bonding experience.

That is interesting and out of curiosity a question for deejay. How are pilots and their aircraft paired in a sq. Does a pilot fly the same ac during his / her tenure in tbe sq?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7462
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 20 Jan 2018 07:27

Cybaru wrote:Do pilots get to see and participate in their bird getting ready through the line? That would be an interesting bonding experience.

Who is going to stop you if you want to?

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Surya » 20 Jan 2018 07:54

ks_sachin wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Do pilots get to see and participate in their bird getting ready through the line? That would be an interesting bonding experience.

That is interesting and out of curiosity a question for deejay. How are pilots and their aircraft paired in a sq. Does a pilot fly the same ac during his / her tenure in tbe sq?


No

in the morning as they plan it -they will know the aircraft that are available - they are then assigned depending on what the training\flying roster is for the day

even then as the day progresses some aircraft may develop last minute glitches and be pulled out

Pilots and technicians have their favorites and known troublemakers!!

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2063
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Vivek K » 20 Jan 2018 08:12

Basically - nothing is easy. Like Kennedy said - we choose to do it not because it is easy, but because it is hard! Every oil leak, every delay in producing LCA teaches us invaluable lessons in trouble shooting, improving processes.

Laugh not at HAL for ye laugh at yourselves! Pray that they accomplish their mission and make us all proud. And when the challenges are overcome, we will all be proud as hell. So sit tight.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52816
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 20 Jan 2018 09:45

Vivek K wrote:Basically - nothing is easy. Like Kennedy said - we choose to do it not because it is easy, but because it is hard! Every oil leak, every delay in producing LCA teaches us invaluable lessons in trouble shooting, improving processes.

Laugh not at HAL for ye laugh at yourselves! Pray that they accomplish their mission and make us all proud. And when the challenges are overcome, we will all be proud as hell. So sit tight.




So true. Read the actual accounts of pilots in 1965. Many sorties got aborted on runway as the jet starters wouldnt work!

A Deshmukh
BRFite
Posts: 279
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:24

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby A Deshmukh » 20 Jan 2018 11:21

Indranil wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:better to find and fix defects now, than finding when IAF pilots are flying them.

The flying daggers are an awesome squadron. They are married to the aircraft. They sense that what they are doing is very rare in the history of IAF and the country. You have heard how pilots have said that they stayed up all night with the technicians trying to fix something. What a feeling it must be to be part of a national project at this juncture. There are pilots elsewhere who want to join the squadron.

Indranilji, I agree. I am aware they are doing a great job.
my concern was their safety. I dont mind SP5 getting delayed, if this makes the pilots safer. happy that first steps (first plane off the new line) are cautious.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1916
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby PratikDas » 20 Jan 2018 12:55

Indranil, was the root-cause for the HSTT oil leak related to your anecdote about changing transmission oil in your vehicle?

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9925
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby sum » 20 Jan 2018 13:41

DRDO chief co piloted PV6 for 30 minute sortie today

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Jan 2018 13:54

Indranil wrote:Akshay sir,

In this particular case, it is experienced hands (from the HAwk line) with a new machine. They know how to get things going and catch up. I am told that their paperwork etc. is more immaculate than Line 1. The issue with SP5 will be something small. Like give so much time after a certain step is finished before starting the next. Or two steps which are just out of order. With the Hawk line too they had similar issues. But they caught up and delivered the last Hawks ahead of schedule. So don't worry about this ones.

Tejas serial production is a generation ahead of anything that India has ever produced. It is also much more detailed. You asked for an anecdote so let me give you two. You know that the SPs outperform all the LSPs/PVs/TDs due to their smooth panels and fit. But just before the visit of the Singaporean defense minister, they had a problem. They called all the LSPs back from the detachment (you guys saw pictures from the partially finished testings). They grounded all SPs. They found that none of the LSPs had this problem. Interestingly, the cause was found to be tight tolerance on the SPs. A technician on the assembly line had made a small mistake and that was all. It was quickly fixed and all LCAs returned to flying. The Singaporean defense minister loved the plan and was very gracious in his comments. The detachment will continue once again. Except this time they will have the longest ferry flight that they have undertaken with loadout. These kind of things are part and parcel of developing highly sophisticated machines.

The second anecdote is a personal one and a bit OT but may be more similar to what is happening with SP5. I changed the transmission fluid on my SUV last summer. It is not very difficult, simple set of steps on a well established machine. I have done this on other cars several times now. It worked well all through summer. Around mid-Sept, I drove it into the mountains. I camped for two nights. The temperature was cold, around -10 degrees. When I tried to drive it out, the auto-transmission was grinding, somewhat like when you try to change gear without depressing the clutch enough. After about an hour or two of driving, it became alright again. But I had to solve the problem, because my family loves the mountains and we go there often. The level of self-preservation has heightened recently in my household (we have a baby). If the car breaks down, SHQ will kill me with her bare hands. After much of Google searching, I found that people who were facing the same problems basically had low transmission fluid. But, I had just changed my transmission fluid and checked for leaks. I did not know what else to do. So, I put in more transmission fluid and behold: I had no problem when I returned to the mountains recently when the temperature was much lower. Turns out there was one step wherein I did not spend enough time when I changed the fluids the first time. In this step of the process, the oil gets into parts like the solenoid pack. Since I had changed the fluids on smaller cars earlier, this process would finish relatively early. On my bigger vehicle, I had to just be more patient.


Thanks. Very useful and think it’s given a lot of folk good perceptive. One thing I’d like to share. Fighting men and their machines (of any kind - from a rifle to an aircraft) share a close bond. Unless they have 100 pct confidence in it they won’t be able to use it properly and effectively. So in training and in Ops throughout the armed forces you will find the phrase ‘we have confidence in our training and our equipment’. Watch any video from republic or times now or anyone else and you will always see this phrase. It’s essential for survival in action. That’s why once that bond is made, its very strong and as commanders you akways Reinforce it.

In Tejas case’s it’s going to be easier to form this bond as it’s a great plane and it’s been tested so well. The pride you see in 45 SQDN will exist in all sqdns but it’s a little special here because it’s our own baby and it’s been so safe in tests. This is going to be a new MIG 21 love story for the IAF. Mark my words.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jan 2018 14:31

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Indranil wrote:Akshay sir,

In this particular case, it is experienced hands (from the HAwk line) with a new machine. They know how to get things going and catch up. I am told that their paperwork etc. is more immaculate than Line 1. The issue with SP5 will be something small. Like give so much time after a certain step is finished before starting the next. Or two steps which are just out of order. With the Hawk line too they had similar issues. But they caught up and delivered the last Hawks ahead of schedule. So don't worry about this ones.

Tejas serial production is a generation ahead of anything that India has ever produced. It is also much more detailed. You asked for an anecdote so let me give you two. You know that the SPs outperform all the LSPs/PVs/TDs due to their smooth panels and fit. But just before the visit of the Singaporean defense minister, they had a problem. They called all the LSPs back from the detachment (you guys saw pictures from the partially finished testings). They grounded all SPs. They found that none of the LSPs had this problem. Interestingly, the cause was found to be tight tolerance on the SPs. A technician on the assembly line had made a small mistake and that was all. It was quickly fixed and all LCAs returned to flying. The Singaporean defense minister loved the plan and was very gracious in his comments. The detachment will continue once again. Except this time they will have the longest ferry flight that they have undertaken with loadout. These kind of things are part and parcel of developing highly sophisticated machines.

The second anecdote is a personal one and a bit OT but may be more similar to what is happening with SP5. I changed the transmission fluid on my SUV last summer. It is not very difficult, simple set of steps on a well established machine. I have done this on other cars several times now. It worked well all through summer. Around mid-Sept, I drove it into the mountains. I camped for two nights. The temperature was cold, around -10 degrees. When I tried to drive it out, the auto-transmission was grinding, somewhat like when you try to change gear without depressing the clutch enough. After about an hour or two of driving, it became alright again. But I had to solve the problem, because my family loves the mountains and we go there often. The level of self-preservation has heightened recently in my household (we have a baby). If the car breaks down, SHQ will kill me with her bare hands. After much of Google searching, I found that people who were facing the same problems basically had low transmission fluid. But, I had just changed my transmission fluid and checked for leaks. I did not know what else to do. So, I put in more transmission fluid and behold: I had no problem when I returned to the mountains recently when the temperature was much lower. Turns out there was one step wherein I did not spend enough time when I changed the fluids the first time. In this step of the process, the oil gets into parts like the solenoid pack. Since I had changed the fluids on smaller cars earlier, this process would finish relatively early. On my bigger vehicle, I had to just be more patient.


Thanks. Very useful and think it’s given a lot of folk good perceptive. One thing I’d like to share. Fighting men and their machines (of any kind - from a rifle to an aircraft) share a close bond. Unless they have 100 pct confidence in it they won’t be able to use it properly and effectively. So in training and in Ops throughout the armed forces you will find the phrase ‘we have confidence in our training and our equipment’. Watch any video from republic or times now or anyone else and you will always see this phrase. It’s essential for survival in action. That’s why once that bond is made, its very strong and as commanders you akways Reinforce it.

In Tejas case’s it’s going to be easier to form this bond as it’s a great plane and it’s been tested so well. The pride you see in 45 SQDN will exist in all sqdns but it’s a little special here because it’s our own baby and it’s been so safe in tests. This is going to be a new MIG 21 love story for the IAF. Mark my words.


Sugar and ghee come to mind!!!!

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7462
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 20 Jan 2018 15:57

PratikDas wrote:Indranil, was the root-cause for the HSTT oil leak related to your anecdote about changing transmission oil in your vehicle?

No, no. Just an anecdote.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 20 Jan 2018 16:45

Indranil wrote:...
I would be surprised if they can Make Mk1A fly before mid-2019 though. Therefore to start delivery of Mk1As from 2020 is a very steep target. So grab some popcorn and enjoy. It won't be a bad show.

IMO, 2022 seems more plausible for Mk1A.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1201
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gyan » 21 Jan 2018 00:08

Perhaps I am wrong. Between 20 th March 2017 till 19 th Jan 2018, which is ten months, TWO LCA were produced rather than ONE as I wrongly claimed.

Someone wants to save honour & dignity of HAL by changing date of first flight of SP4, and then adding prospective future LCA to the mix.

If IAF has not allowed metal cutting for second batch of LCA then they won't come before 2021 and MK1S will fall back to 2024.

HAL production line even for 4 LCA was incomplete till end of 2016.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1916
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby PratikDas » 21 Jan 2018 00:13

Indranil wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Indranil, was the root-cause for the HSTT oil leak related to your anecdote about changing transmission oil in your vehicle?

No, no. Just an anecdote.

Ok, thanks. Thought there was some Chanakyan connection there :lol:

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 21 Jan 2018 06:46

Indranil wrote:...
I would be surprised if they can Make Mk1A fly before mid-2019 though. Therefore to start delivery of Mk1As from 2020 is a very steep target. So grab some popcorn and enjoy. It won't be a bad show.


Do we know how much development for the changes planned for Mk1A has already been started/progressed/completed? What remains to do? How many flight test hours will be required for its qualification?

Given it has taken 4-years+ to achieve FOC from IOC-2, it is highly doubtful that Mk1A with all the changes planned (AESA radar, Jamming Pod, major internal rearrangement, and other weight savings activities) could be qualified for production within a year of its first flight. If the production green light has to wait until full certification then that’s going to push out its deliveries even further (24-36 months out from commencement). Not to forget, Mk1A “production hell” period where issues need to be sorted out.

Recent news reports were all about moving the file one step forward only. Nothing about where things are as far as R&D goes.

The plot line, based on what we know at this point in time, shows all signs of a bad show eventuality. Wish it were the other way!

If trying to build an aerospace MIC with only 40 LCA Mk1* firm orders sound ridiculous, it is. Lacks smooth continuity whereby industry can establish and mature. Note *: Tejas Mk1 is a fully developed multi-role fighter.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Neshant » 21 Jan 2018 08:23

I have a suggestion.
Abandon qualification methods for aerospace products for the LCA that are currently in use.
It simply takes way, way too long and is too bureaucratic!
Something a lot faster has to be devised for approving entry into service.

I'm not convinced the validation & verification methods used in aerospace actually make all that much of a difference in terms of quality & reliability of the final product. The time and money spent on it also kills all innovation as nothing can be developed or iteratively developed without incurring enormous costs.

If such methods were employed in OS development, we'd still be stuck using command line DOS.
And DOS would cost $5000 per user license.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 21 Jan 2018 09:32

^^^
IMO, the problem is related to the disjointed Indian process. Everyone is working in their silos and washing their hands off another's burden. Blame gets shifted to the next guy.

  • DRDO/ADA -> Their mandate is R&D work and the sanctioned funds only allow for that. Funds are limited and released after lengthy process in step-wise manner. More or less removed from production and user support side of things.
  • HAL -> They are the production agency but their heart lies in being a design entity. Mk1A is their attempt to take ownership of the design but in doing so are promising timelines that does not seem feasible. Production of Mk1 finally stabilizing and outsourcing to Tier-1 is occurring. But orders are limited for any meaningful continuity.
  • IAF -> They are the end-user who demands the best-of-the-best. Looks to be less interested in what it means for product ROI and national ecosystem build up. Even though Mk1 is much superior to the retiring planes (MiG-21/27) and squadron shortages at hand, only 40 are on order after which they want Mk2 (this has been changed to Mk1A). But yet again this is for 83 units only. Production is supposed to be at 16/year in the next 2-years to be achieved with the limited 20+20 Mk1 orders. Looking at best-of-the-best, Mk1A requirements are such that it will be more advanced than planes in its current inventory. Apart from Rafale (which has undergone at least 4 major iterations to finally be integrated with an AESA radar), none of the other IAF planes have it but is being required after producing just 40 Mk1. Similar with jammer requirement even when the premier Su-30MKI is still in R&D now (previous Russian and Israeli didn't work out).
  • GoI/Mod/MoF -> Stuck in their own bureaucratic red tape, like the infamous 11-step procurement process. Projects are allowed to grind to a halt with their slow file moving process. Trickle funding/approval methodology are stifling continuity of programs. Promoting MII but change takes time, especially with its purse strings tied.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7462
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2018 09:39


deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3887
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby deejay » 21 Jan 2018 10:31

Gyan wrote:...

If IAF has not allowed metal cutting for second batch of LCA then they won't come before 2021 and MK1S will fall back to 2024.

...


Who the hell is IAF to stop metal cutting of planes by HAL? Do they have any authority? They cannot decide where and how they will deploy their own assets, forget deciding for a DPSU. Please don't give super powers to an organisation where non exists.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1087
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby RKumar » 21 Jan 2018 21:59

Indranil wrote:
Gyan wrote:It seems in last 10 months only one LCA has been produced by two production lines?

Don't know how you count. In the last 10 months (mid of March'17 o mid of Jan'18): SP4, SP6 and SP7 have been handed over to IAF. There is a reason why people make fun of you.

SP5 is an anomaly, and there are deliveries getting stuck behind it. In the next 2-3 months, 4 more LCAs will be added to the flight line. 3 of them (SP5, SP8 and SP9) are almost past the equipment phase. SP-10 has already entered equipment phase. So in 2017-2018, they would have delivered 7 aircraft, one more than initially planed


Gyan is right here, during 2017-2018 financial year i.e. from 1 April 2017 till 31st March 2018, HAL have produced only 2 Tejas so far. We cant count same plane in two years. We will see how many others fighters are delivered by HAL till 31 March, 2018

http://www.tejas.gov.in/first_flights.html

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 21 Jan 2018 22:24

All wrong. HAL director in an interview about 4-6 months ago said they are ramping up to 8 a year. So from the moment the words emerged from his mouth to today 3-4 aircraft should have come. Why have they not come? He must have shot his mouth off. BRF ahead of curve. The quality of discourse is so impressive.

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 516
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby VKumar » 21 Jan 2018 23:09

Tweeter telling that India should make LCA as LIFT and junk HAWK. Saying that if not f16 India should buy F 35. Says it's on offer provided CISMOA is agreed. Responder said india's long term interests and concern for sovereignty requires development of own arms and armaments industry. Own LCA, AMCA, KAVERI.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52816
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 21 Jan 2018 23:52

BS. Once 4 letter treaties are there the Allies end up being neutered of all capacities. Now only French and Germans can make planes with great difficulty

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Viv S » 22 Jan 2018 03:45

ramana wrote:BS. Once 4 letter treaties are there the Allies end up being neutered of all capacities. Now only French and Germans can make planes with great difficulty

As can the British who's national design capabilities are broadly comparable to French. The Germans are relatively limited and a rung lower in terms of design competencies though their industry is heavily involved in the aviation supply chains. (The Eurofighter & Tornado f.e. were mostly UK-driven projects.)

You can also add Sweden to that, which, while not a US treaty ally, is party to a comm-interoperability agreement.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2018 04:29

VKumar wrote:Tweeter telling that India should make LCA as LIFT and junk HAWK. Saying that if not f16 India should buy F 35. Says it's on offer provided CISMOA is agreed. Responder said india's long term interests and concern for sovereignty requires development of own arms and armaments industry. Own LCA, AMCA, KAVERI.

Never, EVER, sign CISMOA and now known as COMCASA.

You want a relationship? Then do it on mutually agreeable terms. You do not get to dictate terms to us. And stop scaring mongering us with the threat of Dragon Fire. You ain't helping us anyway with the Dragon...COMCASA or not.

COMCASA – Should India Sign?
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... ndia-sign/

By Captain Ramaprasad - a veteran Indian Navy submariner and a recipient of the Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM) for his contributions towards the development of an indigenous combat management system for undersea applications.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2505
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Katare » 22 Jan 2018 04:49

Nuetring India is not possible. Not withstanding massa desire or any treaty.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2018 05:49

https://www.facebook.com/Tarmak007/post ... 4331007554 --> Tejas finally flies DRDO India head. The PV6 was piloted by Air Vice Marshal AP Singh, NFTC Chief. The flight lasted for 30 minutes. May be inspired by Defence Minister Sitharaman's Su-30MKI sortie!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2018 05:51

January 08/2018: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/950587566482321409 --> The first Customer Acceptance Flight of Tejas SP-7 is over with No 45 Sqn Flying Daggers CO, Grp Capt Madhav Rangachari taking the bird out on its official sortie. Couple of more flights and SP-7 will be part of the Sqn soon.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests