LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by sudeepj »

fanne wrote:i doubt that it is right half dead. The annual intake of fighter pilots is about 100. 1000 pilots. The pilots dying in crashes total may not be more than 100.
F-22 had three goals - 1) look first, shoot first, kill first 2)? and 3) A 19 year old fresh out of flying school should be able to fly it.
IIRC, it was a group photo of fighter pilots, who were commissioned in 72 (??) tweeted by Air Marshal Anil Chopra https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey
He casually mentioned that half of the people in the picture had died in service. I find it believable because most of them would have been flying the gnat and the mig21 in their prime service years, two fighters with high accident rates.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by SaiK »

*Busy with sonething else* can't be an interpreted nothing?
@indranil #justsaying :)
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Cain Marko »

Will the mk2 have Ge 414s or the snecma based kaveri, which was supposed to get ready very soon? Won't the latter be a more independent choice? Perhaps the load carried would be less but still at least it will be Desi engine for the most part,. If it can lug 4-5 tons, that would make it good enough no?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:*Busy with sonething else* can't be an interpreted nothing?
@indranil #justsaying :)
Agreed. But he doesn’t have the same penalties on his time as the pilots. Spending the whole day with a reporter must be very low on his priority. He gave them an hour or so. And that is exactly what he should have done IMHO.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by JTull »

Interesting bit was the mix of these senior pilots coming with experience of different aircraft. The Fighter Strike Leader is from Jaguar. He mentioned that unlike imported platforms, LCA has no history of known operational uses and it is upto them to determine its limits. Blank canvas. With his experience it would be great if LCA Tejas evolves into a strike variant too. Not just a point-defence fighter.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

Raman wrote:I wish the discussion had focussed on:
- what is involved in inducting a new platform?
- what has IAF's experience been inducting Tejas vs other aircraft?
- how does a new airframe join the squadron?
- what is the process of creating a syllabus to operationalize a new pilot?
- how did these pilots apply for/qualify for 45 sqn?
- etc. etc.

I think it is possible to get some really useful and insightful information without compromising OPSEC.
Point No 1, 3, 4 is obviously very confidential since it will involve describing Operating Procedures being developed or existing ones in use.

Point No 2 these boys & their CO wont know. The last two aircraft, Su-30MKI happened two decades ago and Hawk a decade ago, and they may not have been part of it. Military taskings are extremely compartmentalized.

Point No 5 - allocated by operations. In the military, you don't have the luxury of choosing your role :) You're allocated one. Most are qualified flying instructors, which indicates 45 Sq function as an OCU, similar to 24 Sq on Su-30MK
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by chetak »

Indranil wrote:
SaiK wrote:*Busy with sonething else* can't be an interpreted nothing?
@indranil #justsaying :)
Agreed. But he doesn’t have the same penalties on his time as the pilots. Spending the whole day with a reporter must be very low on his priority. He gave them an hour or so. And that is exactly what he should have done IMHO.
More than likely that it was shot over a number of days and then edited to look like one day.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 64203.html

BENGALURU: Close to one-and-a-half-years after the first Light Combat Aircraft Tejas joined the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet officially, the No 45 Sqn Flying Daggers that flies the desi bird is now ready for bigger operational challenges.

Raised in Bengaluru on July 1, 2016, the Flying Daggers are a now formidable combat air unit with a bunch of young pilots who sleeps, eats and breathes Tejas.

During an interaction granted to this Correspondent, it was evident that the boys are confident of the machine that they operate, its abilities and the possibilities it offers in future. In fact, they call Tejas an ‘intelligent talking plane’.

The Flying Daggers are now under the operational control of Southern Air Command (SAC), headquartered at Thiruvananthapuram through the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) located at Bengaluru.

A lot has been talked and written about Tejas. A lot has been written off about the platform as well. But when the user, who is locked on to the goals of flying a swift, sure and safe machine, speaks about the qualities of the fighter, it might be music to the ears to those who reposed faith on Tejas.

Wg Cdr Chandra Sekhar Hiremath (Hire), Senior Engineering Officer with the Flying Daggers says that Indian software brains have ensured that the best have gone into Tejas.

“All the systems in this aircraft run on software. This has ensured that the aircraft speaks to you. It tells you what all it is capable of and what it cannot do. The aircraft also tells you what is wrong with it. As an engineer, you need not break your head to diagnose technical issues,” says Wg Cdr Hiremath.

Wg Cdr Samarth Dhankar (Danny), Flight Commander and Flight Combat Leader is the first non-Test Pilot to have flown the Tejas. Now the No 2 man in the squadron, he terms Tejas as a compact lethal package.

It should be Fighter Combat Leader - his qualification from TACDE

“In spite of being so light, it is so agile and so responsive to your control inputs. It is fully loaded with sensors and state-of-the-art avionics. It is a wonderful feeling to display what you do. Flying over Rajpath has always been special as the nationalistic feelings peak during Republic Day,” says Danny.

Wg Cdr Manish Tolani, a Squadron pilot and Qualified Flying Instructor, who has flown the MiG variants and the Hawks, says Tejas combines the best of the Russian and western philosophies of military aviation.

“Tejas is a designer’s marvel. The Test Pilots and the designers have brought in the best of all fleets across the world and put in a small platform and that makes it unique. It is an intelligent combination of the best systems in the world,” says Wg Cdr Tolani.

For Gp Capt Madhav Rangachari (Ranga), the first Commanding Officer of Flying Daggers, it has been a very demanding task to set up a new squadron.

Right from sourcing chairs, tables to forming SOPs, broad guidelines and maintenance procedures, to ensuring the availability of planes for his boys to fly, Ranga has probably lost some hair in the last one year.

That's the closest answer Raman would get to his Question 1, 3 & 4

In addition, he had a huge task to prove that Tejas is an operational platform and no more an ‘air show bird,’ with smoke winders on.

“Tough task I must say, but then we have been trained to be tougher,” says Ranga, who was flying the Mirage 2000s, before moving to Flying Daggers.

His crew has grown to eight pilots, four engineering officers and one logistics man now, in addition to set of ground crew, who play a significant role like the pilots.

“It is planned that the Flying Daggers will be eventually based at Sulur which is near Coimbatore and we hope to move to the new base in the later part of this year. Full-fledged base upgradation activities are on in Sulur and we have to ensure that all facilities are set, before we move out,” he says.

Flying Daggers hope to have a dozen of Tejas Series Production versions in their fleet before they move out of Bengaluru. With six in their kitty, the IAF hopes that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will deliver the remaining birds on priority.

“Every new pilot who joins the squadron first goes through a grueling ground training session for several weeks. He then flies on the Tejas simulator followed by sorties on the trainer or two-seater version (PV5 & PV 6) and later they get to fly the Tejas solo. After its developmental flight tests by the National Flight Test Center, the Flying Daggers have started operational training and flying on this aircraft. Our flying and maintenance related inputs as users, are being collated for further design improvements on this aircraft,” says Ranga, who has so far flown over 300 sorties, clocking 200-plus hours.

SAC to become hub for fighters

Air Vice-Marshal Sandeep Singh, Commandant, ASTE, gives a pep talk to the crew.

With the Tejas scheduled to move to Sulur and the Sukhois already flying in Thanjavur, the Southern Air Command will soon become an active hub for the fighters.

Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh, a top-rated Sukhoi pilot in IAF, and now the Commandant of ASTE, hopes that with increased rate of production by HAL, more squadrons of this indigenously designed and manufactured aircraft, would soon form part of the IAF.

“Almost there and with more planes joining the fleet, the squadron boys will have more opportunities to employ the Tejas in several operational exercises that the IAF conducts. A talking fighter is what the Squadron Engineering officers call the LCA. And, the pilots are convinced that they are flying an intelligent machine that listens to them, talks to them. That’s Tejas for you. An intelligent flying machine -- as my boys call it,” says AVM Sandeep.

Flying Daggers just completed another mission enthralling the crowd at Rajpath during the 69th Republic Day flypast for the second consecutive year. Flying in low visibility over Delhi in ‘Vic’ formation had its own challenges.

IAF insiders say there has been a huge excitement for various fighter pilots to get posted to the Flying Daggers and be a part of ‘The Invincibles.’ After all, guts and glory go together, for air warriors!
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by JTull »

So LCA Tejas is already more Maintenance friendly than anything else IAF have got.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

JTull wrote:So LCA Tejas is already more Maintenance friendly than anything else IAF have got.
Yes, GE F-404IN20 is far superior to Al-31FP or M53 engines as is the Elta 2032 radar, the key subsystems. There is extensive inbuilt BIT unlike the retrofit we tried on Su-30. The unmatched strike capability comes from Elta 2032 (reported by Vishnu Som earlier) and Litening. The Elbit helmet too helps in weaving flight & fight modes. All of it seamlessly integrated using Indian software on Indian MC.

When the Su-30MKI MLU is due, I hope they replace the Al-31FP engine with GE or P&W engines of equivalent or better ratings and the radar with a 2052 or equivalent. The Su-30 needs an engine change more than the Jaguar.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Gyan »

I think Moksha for LCA will be achieved only when we order additional 100 LCA in AJT variant powered with Kaveri Engine
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Austin »

LCA Tejas: IAF's Made In India Fighter

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

^^ First pilot is wearing TACDE FSL patch while the second is wearing FCL patch, so they're crème de la crème AHQ provided to the squadron. They will develop, prove and publish Standard Operating Procedures for A2G and A2A for Tejas in IAF service.

Good thing about Tejas is that it speaks for itself. I am hoping the aircraft enables its pilots and squadrons to perform their operational roles better than others. As pilots rise in the hierarchy, they and others observing their rise will be favourable to Mk2 & AMCA if they reach a decision making role in the Plans Directorate.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by PratikDas »

Gyan wrote:I think Moksha for LCA will be achieved only when we order additional 100 LCA in AJT variant powered with Kaveri Engine
Yes, but for now we'll settle for one more karmic cycle with reincarnation in the form of Tejas Mk2.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

Gyan wrote:I think Moksha for LCA will be achieved only when we order additional 100 LCA in AJT variant powered with Kaveri Engine
ADA doesn't have the budget to do extra projects on the side.

With HAL taking the lead on Mk1A, it is possible they may build a LIFT version of it given the initiative they have taken on LUH, HTT-40 and JV Combat Hawk. They financed these themselves and with LUH and HTT-40 they have been promised guaranteed orders by GoI. For the LCA LIFT though, HAL would need to partner with private industries (along with partial GoI funding) to cover the costs of R&D and sales. A launch customer would be needed. Then export markets have to be developed in order for the Indian aerospace MIC to flourish. Markets at home are limited to one or two users and their needs are not sufficient to sustain the industry at large.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by SaiK »

IMHO, it ain't about budgets. it is all about our capability, why fund when it doesn't work to take 9 women to deliver a baby in 1 month? Now you might think about how to structure orgs, divisions, and labs. It is a big discussion on this matter. The most important point is never let the team(s) to idle like we did after Marut till LCA.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by negi »

tsarkar wrote:
JTull wrote:So LCA Tejas is already more Maintenance friendly than anything else IAF have got.
Yes, GE F-404IN20 is far superior to Al-31FP or M53 engines as is the Elta 2032 radar, the key subsystems. There is extensive inbuilt BIT unlike the retrofit we tried on Su-30. The unmatched strike capability comes from Elta 2032 (reported by Vishnu Som earlier) and Litening. The Elbit helmet too helps in weaving flight & fight modes. All of it seamlessly integrated using Indian software on Indian MC.

When the Su-30MKI MLU is due, I hope they replace the Al-31FP engine with GE or P&W engines of equivalent or better ratings and the radar with a 2052 or equivalent. The Su-30 needs an engine change more than the Jaguar.
Engine maintenance only happens less frequently there are other sub systems that are to be overhauled or replaced more frequently ; claiming that AL-31FP engine has lesser MTBF figure than say a GE F414 and hence is not maintenance friendly is akin to saying that Maruti engines are not maintenance friendly as against say VW engines as they need to be serviced more frequently than a VW engine ; there is more to being maintenance friendly than just MTBF numbers or how sophisticated the BIST module is . The fact of the matter is Maruti has a wider service network and since the local content is higher parts availability is higher so net time required to procure a part and replace it is lower , the cost of each service is low enough to ensure that high frequency of service does not lead to a net high bill (I have vehicles from both makes so this is a very relevant example). On similar lines fact is India builds AL-31FP under licence here , the overhaul is done at Koraput and hence even if the frequency of overhaul on paper is higher than that of a GE equivalent it is still the only option anyone claiming otherwise is simply reading from brochures at this point in time for there simply does not exist any facility in India to build or even do a complete overhaul of the GE F414 engine . Only once we start building or even doing complete overhaul of GE engines in-house we would be in a position to comment if one is more friendly in terms of maintenance (cost to the exchequer and availability of parts during all times is another aspect).

A good example is that of sea harriers whose engines had to be flown to the UK for a complete overhaul . Their lower MTBF numbers are of no use to us for we were always having to ship the damn thing overseas for basic maintenance.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

negi wrote:Engine maintenance only happens less frequently there are other sub systems that are to be overhauled or replaced more frequently ; claiming that AL-31FP engine has lesser MTBF figure than say a GE F414 and hence is not maintenance friendly is akin to saying that Maruti engines are not maintenance friendly as against say VW engines as they need to be serviced more frequently than a VW engine ; there is more to being maintenance friendly than just MTBF numbers or how sophisticated the BIST module is . The fact of the matter is Maruti has a wider service network and since the local content is higher parts availability is higher so net time required to procure a part and replace it is lower , the cost of each service is low enough to ensure that high frequency of service does not lead to a net high bill (I have vehicles from both makes so this is a very relevant example)
My previous post on engine replacement of Su-30MKI due to poor design and manufacturing was not based on any brochure data, but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's statement to parliament

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/su ... VecIK.html
Defence minister Manohar Parrikar Tuesday said the Russian-origin fighters recorded as many as 35 engine failures/engine-related problems between January 2013 and December 2014.

Failure of bearings, used to reduce friction between moving parts, was the cause behind engine trouble, Parrikar told Rajya Sabha. As bearings operate under severe conditions, metal fatigue can cause particles to flake off or fragment leading to complications.

Parrikar said India had resolved the bearing problem by “arranging better lubrication (to prevent wear and tear), better fitment of bearings and better quality of oil.”

“Out of total 69 cases in the last three years, 33 cases are due to finding of chips in the oil, 11 due to vibration in the engine (caused by bearing problem) and 8 cases because of low pressure of lubricating oil,” Parrikar said in a detailed reply in the House. In all, engines coming in for overhaul will have nine modifications.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2015-02-14
The IAF has procured 25 new engines with modified technology from Russia which has suggested some modifications in production of new engines.
negi wrote:On similar lines fact is India builds AL-31FP under licence here , the overhaul is done at Koraput
Out of 920 odd engines ordered, barely a few are being manufactured from raw material stage in India, most are imported as CKD and assembled.

http://www.news18.com/news/india/russia ... 96941.html
Russia's Ufa-based engine-maker will deliver the first 10 of 920 AL-31FP engines for the Su-30MKI Flanker-H to India before the end of March 2013, the manufacturer said.
http://www.hal-india.com/HAL%20Hands%20 ... AF/ND__209
The 50th AL31FP engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi Engine Division of HAL (Koraput) has been handed over to IAF in Delhi yesterday as part of celebrations of 70th year of India Russia diplomatic relationship.
^^ That too in 2017.

Spares are still not manufactured by HAL. They're still sold by Russian OEMs. An agreement for them to be re-sold by HAL was signed only as late as 2017
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
T. Suvarna Raju, chairman of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, signed an agreement with Yuri Slyusar, president of United Aircraft Corporation, and Alexander Artyukhov, director general of United Engine Corporation, in the presence of Indian Defence Minister Arun Jaitley and Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov. The deal took place here on March 17 during an India-Russia military industrial conference.

The agreement will enable HAL to procure required spares directly from the original equipment manufacturers authorized by Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation.

However, a senior Indian Air Force official said this is only a long-term support agreement between HAL and the Russian original equipment manufacturers and therefore does not cover anything related to license production of critical spare parts that can improve serviceability of the fleet.


Also, the Russians want to sell new parts rather than repair old parts that cost only 25% of buying new parts.
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal. Narang noted that the major issue regarding maintenance is not the supply of spare parts but rather the rapidity of repairs of line-replaceable units and shop-repairable units. He asserted that the Russian suppliers make good money by supplying new spare parts at solid profit margins, but are always reluctant to quickly make repairs at 25 percent of the cost of new items.
negi wrote:there simply does not exist any facility in India to build or even do a complete overhaul of the GE F414 engine .
No aircraft in India flies on the GE F414 engine.

But for LM2500 gas turbines used on Project 17, Project 71 and Project 17A, HAL does complete maintenance.

https://www.geaviation.com/press-releas ... 0%99s-next
HAL will assemble and test the LM2500 gas turbines prior to installation; HAL is licensed by GE to do so for Indian Navy LM2500 propulsion applications. HAL also is licensed to provide service and comprehensive support including inspection, spare parts, maintenance and equipment overhauls for GE industrial and marine gas turbines.
http://www.hal-india.com/IMGT%20Divisio ... ore/M__100
Assembly, Test, Repair & Overhaul of LM2500 Industrial and Marine Gas Turbines
GE also has a comprehensive agreement with Air India for MRO of its engines.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... 483517.ece

http://www.aviationnews-online.com/main ... air-india/

Infact Air India Engineering Services Limited is one of the largest MRO services company in the region and profitable because of lack of political or bureaucratic interference in business operations.

http://aiesl.airindia.in/

No reason why Tejas will be any different.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by negi »

^ You missed the point completely and now are presenting facts which are tangential to the topic i.e. we have had issues with absorbing technology to produce and make AL-31FP engines here and this plagues all components of foreign origin be it the SU-30MKI or it's components or for that matter even the components that IN ships use (transmission issues with our newest frigates are not unknown and they are German in origin) . The fact of the matter is AL-31FP overhaul does take place here so it's issues in our environment are KNOWN your claim that MKI will do better with a GE or PW engine is what I refuted because there is simply NO DATA to support such an assertion , moreover the issues that plague our absorption of foreign technology will not suddenly disappear should we choose to go GE or PW way and can only be quantified and hence reported only once we go down that path , my post was strictly about how even if one takes MTBF numbers at face value you cannot conclude on REAL downtime because none of these are COTS items there are variables in this equation which are hard to put a value against for instance probability of USA delaying the export of a simple bearing or blisk for the turbine as against Russians doing it; based on history odds favor one over the other.

LM2500 is a marine GT engine I fail to understand what it is doing in this topic unless you want to make a point by comparing it with Zorya's offerings . By the way I clearly remember how LM2500 supply was delayed long ago . GE MRO for air India is a very very limited facility , those facilities merely overhaul engines even there parts to be replaced are to be imported , now I agree AL-31FP manufacture at Koraput has been a struggle but even as per public sources we have achieved self reliance in manufacturing over 80% of the engine components in-house . I will talk about the ease of maintaining a GE engine when we get an equivalent facility until then it is a hollow claim.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

negi wrote:^ You missed the point completely and now are presenting facts which are tangential to the topic
My point is crystal clear. It makes a case for replacing an engine of poor reliability with a more reliable one. Hope you're able to comprehend.
negi wrote:we have had issues with absorbing technology to produce and make AL-31FP engines
This is a gross understatement. There were significant design and production flaws that are well established in replies to parliament. There was an alarming rate of inflight failures of engines manufactured in Russia and completely unrelated to absorbing technology.

For some reason you ignore these documented failures in your posts.
negi wrote:your claim that MKI will do better with a GE or PW engine is what I refuted because there is simply NO DATA to support such an assertion
Engine change of aircraft is pretty common, including the recent proposal for Jaguar and multiple other aircraft worldwide, including MiG-27 R29 with Al-31, Singapore Skyhawks etc. While the exact benefits cant be tabulated unless trial aircraft are flown, performance figures of GE F110 or PW100 in the same thrust range of Al-31FP are well known. Most importantly, their reliability is well established.
negi wrote:LM2500 is a marine GT engine I fail to understand what it is doing in this topic
This was in response to your earlier post
negi wrote:there simply does not exist any facility in India to build or even do a complete overhaul of the GE F414 engine.
Gas Turbine is a gas turbine, whether Kaveri for Tejas or Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. Most Marine Gas Turbines are derivatives of Aircraft Engines, whether RR Spey, Olympus, Marine Trent, The core technology and product is the same. Point being HAL is doing the same assembly and maintenance of LM2500 as it is of Al-31FP.

Yes, threat of sanctions remain. But GE delivered F2J3 and specifically developed IN20 engines within a few years of Pokharan.
negi wrote:I will talk about the ease of maintaining a GE engine when we get an equivalent facility until then it is a hollow claim.
Before comparing maintainability, why dont you start with reliability since maintainability is a significant factor in reliability?

Why don't you simply compare the number of instances of inflight failure of GE F-404 powering Tejas (nil) against Al-31FP powering Su-30MKI (35 in 3 years)? The answer is there for everyone to see.

Also, what percentage of Tejas fleet (nil) was grounded vis-a-vis Su-30MKI (50-60%) due to non-functional engines? That is a clear indicator of maintainability.

And none of these have anything to do with "Technology Absorption".
Last edited by tsarkar on 29 Jan 2018 16:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by ashishvikas »

Updates from Saurav Jha:

Tata Advanced Materials Limited under the quality assurance of NAL has already delivered 3 out of 7 centre fuselage parts for the HAL Tejas build programme up to unit number SP-18.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/957925359625760769


NAL has also completed control law modifications for the FOC version of the Tejas Mk-1.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/957925645308215297
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

ashishvikas wrote:NAL has also completed control law modifications for the FOC version of the Tejas Mk-1
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/957925645308215297
Now that the full flight envelope of Tejas has been developed, once testing is complete, operationalizing will pick up pace.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Trikaal »

tsarkar wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:NAL has also completed control law modifications for the FOC version of the Tejas Mk-1
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/957925645308215297
Now that the full flight envelope of Tejas has been developed, once testing is complete, operationalizing will pick up pace.
What are the expected outcomes of this? 9G flight compliance? increase in AoA? STR?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by suryag »

<OT>yes they will tell you everything in a release notes and a EULA :)</OT>
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by tsarkar »

Trikaal wrote:What are the expected outcomes of this? 9G flight compliance? increase in AoA? STR?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/12 ... to-be.html
1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G).
2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°).
3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile.
5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile (Related post here).
6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon.
7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs.
The software, post testing by NFTC and certification by CEMILAC will enable full flight envelope and AoA specifications as described in FOC criteria above. And ofcourse, new stores management software, clearance, etc.
Akshay Kapoor
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Sir afaik 24 AOA is already done. Tested for 26 and allowed 24.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Indranil »

tsarkar wrote:
Trikaal wrote:What are the expected outcomes of this? 9G flight compliance? increase in AoA? STR?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/12 ... to-be.html
1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G).
2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°).
3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile.
5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile (Related post here).
6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon.
7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs.
The software, post testing by NFTC and certification by CEMILAC will enable full flight envelope and AoA specifications as described in FOC criteria above. And ofcourse, new stores management software, clearance, etc.
This list is wrong or outdated in almost every item
1. Expanded as part of IOC-I
2. Expanded as part of IOC-II
3. Correct and ongoing
4. Complete
5. Not going to happen
6. Correct and ongoing: it is not a probably with the gun or the aircraft.
7. Not part of FOC
8. Done. They are optimizing the flight computer.
9. I know that this used to be a problem. I knew it as solved. I havnt heard anything ongoing on this. I am not sure on this one.
10. All PGMs for FOC have been tested. More will keep happening.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

^^^
So instead of Python-5, they are looking at ASRAAM?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Indranil »

No decision made yet. FOC not dependent on it.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

For PGMs, anything else other than Griffin-3 LGBs?
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by ramana »

Eventually 250Kg HSLD with Laser guidance on twin racks.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

^^^ Was asking about point 10 above, "All PGMs for FOC have been tested".

Griffin-3 is mated to 1000lb bomb and PB-500. So that may count as 2 PGMs. It is also planned to be integrated with 450kg HSLD and 500kg HSLD.

Fully qualified are these ordnances for FOC AFAIK:

AAM
  1. CCM - R-73
  2. BVR - Derby
Bombs
  1. Practice bombs - in quad pack launcher
  2. 1000lb bomb
  3. 250kg HSLD
  4. 450kg HSLD
  5. Griffin-3 LGB - 1000lb
  6. Griffin-3 LGB - PB-500
External Tanks
  1. 1200ltr drop tank
  2. 800ltr drop tank
  3. 725ltr drop tank
Anything else?
Last edited by srai on 30 Jan 2018 05:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Tsarkar ^^^. I think it would be a brilliant demonstration of how much SU-30MKI 'deep ToT' we actually got if we can re-engine the MKIs with the PWs.

Plus, PW would be willing to deal both because they get into India an GE preserve and because they've moved on to the F-119s and F-135s.

Good post.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/957944293783556096 --> Expect dalals to get really worried when the Flying Daggers move to Sulur with a dozen Tejas SPs.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/957473151943757825 --> Today, Dalals are a little wary of things. They know that the number of indigenization hawks is multiplying. Which is why the old strategy, 'Phorces need this or else' is being revamped.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by nachiket »

Indranil wrote:No decision made yet. FOC not dependent on it.
Is the R-73 already integrated? Not sure how we can have FOC otherwise if there is no CCM integrated.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

By 2025, we will likely see these additional weapons mated to the LCA platform:
  1. CCM -> Python-5 and/or ASRAAM
  2. BVR -> Astra
  3. 500kg HSLD
  4. 450kg/500kg PGHSLD
  5. SAAW
  6. NGARM
  7. 710ltr Supersonic external tank
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by nachiket »

Mod Note: No more posts here about the Su-30MKI and its engines. Take that to the Su-30 thread.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by srai »

nachiket wrote:
Indranil wrote:No decision made yet. FOC not dependent on it.
Is the R-73 already integrated? Not sure how we can have FOC otherwise if there is no CCM integrated.
Fully qualified at IOC-2 itself. More than two dozen R-73 firings have taken place over the years. Take a look at the last two Iron Fists; Tejas fired R-73s at flares.



High off-bore sight angle launch


At 4:20 mark
Last edited by srai on 30 Jan 2018 07:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/957481674626838530 ---> Pats was in school in 1999, when his mom took him to Aero India. He saw LCA TD1 on static display. Almost 20 years later, Pats flew Tejas.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/957250725343477761 ---> "Our flying and maintenance related inputs as users are being collated for further design improvements on Tejas," Group Captain Madhav Rangachari, CO, No 45 Sqn.

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