LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Dec 2017 01:29

"Unfortunately we deal with the purchases of fighters as if we are buying toor dal and mung dal" he said

MP's comment aptly sums it all up.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 12 Dec 2017 01:40

Didn't Pak have Sparrow missiles in service during Kargil? Or was it acquired/gifted later from US post 9/11? Wiki entry on Sparrow mentions PAF as one of the users of the missile.

So,
R-77 (Or R-27 ?) = 60 Km
R-73: 30 Km
Sidewinder: 20 Km
Amraam C-5 (7?): 100 Km
Meteor: 150 Km

KaranM, the same journo had mentioned that Elta exceeded Gripen's radar in A-G resolution but PSA-05 had longer detection ranges.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2017 01:47

No Sparrow but AMRAAM

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Dec 2017 02:04

2052 would need more power (perhaps even more for a GaN ver). I would definitely see Mk2 get engaged soon if the design is frozen.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 02:11

Prasad wrote:Lca is being integrated with the I-Derby ER which has a range of 100km. Guess who sees first first and shoots first?

The low RCS of Tejas will give it an advantage in such a scenario as the opponent will need to be closer to detect it while carrying similar ranged AAMs.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2017 02:49

ramana wrote:No Sparrow but AMRAAM

Not during Kargil. During Kargil, they were only equipped with the AIM-9Ls. They bought 310 AIM-9Ms (including 10 captive training rounds) in 2005, which they upgraded to AIM-9M-9 configuration before the order was realised.

link to AIM-9M purchase details
link to AIM-9M-9 upgrade link

Just as a datapoint- the AIM-9M costs $107,000 per missile, whereas the AIM-9X costs $172,000 per missile.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Dec 2017 03:02

Zynda wrote:Didn't Pak have Sparrow missiles in service during Kargil? Or was it acquired/gifted later from US post 9/11? Wiki entry on Sparrow mentions PAF as one of the users of the missile.

Kaiser Tufail in his blog post about the PAF in Kargil confirmed that no PAF fighter (including the F-16) was BVR capable. So no sparrows. They directly moved to the AMRAAM int he 2000's.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2017 03:05

Karan M wrote:Both the radars should be able to exploit the Meteor at shorter ranges than its full performance, which is what I guess tsarkar means (can exploit but sub-optimally).

Its RMax seems to be 150km per Parrikars statements. NEZ guessing for a ramjet is a mugs game, so I will not even attempt to try.

SAAB has a PS-05 variant meant for Meteor.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... gripen-cd/
A new hardware configuration with a complete new radar back-end gives significantly improved radar performance and operational range, enhances the Gripen Weapon System capabilities and offers full AMRAAM and Meteor integration. It also enables significant capability growth through software upgrades to successfully counter evolving threats in decades to come.

A new Air-to-Air mode has been implemented and demonstrated which takes full advantage of the signal processing capacity and the flexible waveform generation in PS-05/A Mk4. This mode increases acquisition range with 100% at low altitudes compared to previous version of PS- 05/A. This radar mode will also be useful for detection of targets with very low Radar Cross Section. The Meteor missile downlink is optimized to maintain radar performance during long-range data linking scenarios.
From a Gripen flight by a journo at Aero India, it could track airliners some 300 km away. Assuming it was the latest Mk4 variant, and estimating 30 sq mtrs per airliner (large ones etc), that gives around 190 km against a 5 sq mtr target (loaded fighter). This is not the whole answer as its always significantly easier to detect larger targets, so lets deduct another 20%, rough thumbrule, so around 150 km.

Not bad and should allow for Meteor usage.

Now what do we know of the EL/M-2032 variant on the LCA, its around the 80km range for 2 sqmtr targets (with the british radome), then its around 100 km for a 5 sq mtr target.

Not as powerful at all as the PS-05 MK4 but fairly reasonable.

I stated the same thing, that both sets could exploit a Meteor, even if not fully. The basic theory being that with similar peak output powers and array size, they should have similar acquisition and tracking ranges (taking into account the new Cobham radome). Ballpark figures of course.

But Vishnu Som had this to say about the difference (based on his limited knowledge of the systems) on Keypubs. So maybe the Gripen C's radar has been optimized further to be able to take full advantage of the Meteor's range. Whereas the Tejas has clearly a lot of potential to be a fantastic air to ground striker. The Elta 2052 set should allow for longer air to air detection and tracking ranges and full exploitation of the Meteor or Astra Mk2 (if its range is higher than 100 kms).

A quick observation ... I was lucky to be flown onboard the LCA Tejas and the Gripen D on consecutive days last week and have a small observation to make. The Synthetic Aperture mode of the PS-05 V3 (possibly V4) on the Gripen was markedly inferior to the resolution provided by the Elta EL/M 2032 set onboard the Tejas while looking down and ground `targets. However, the air to air range on the Gripen's radar (not disclosing numbers here) was singularly impressive - meant to take advantage of the phenomenal range of the Meteor missile.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Dec 2017 03:07

Kartik, when did Vishnu post that? Reason I ask is to figure out whether the LCA he flew on had the new Cobham radome or not.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2017 03:11

nachiket wrote:Kartik, when did Vishnu post that? Reason I ask is to figure out whether the LCA he flew on had the new Cobham radome or not.

It had the older radome. He flew in the trainer at Aero India 2017. the Cobham radome only featured on LSP-3 in August 2016 and till this year, the trainers will still flying with the older radomes.

So yes, if he flew on a production standard trainer, the air to air and air to ground ranges would've markedly improved thanks to the quartz radome.

Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), Defence Research and Development Organisation had told this correspondent in an earlier interview last year that the quartz radome would increase the radar range from the current 45-50 km to 80 km and above.

link

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 03:14

Prasad wrote:Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force

Quality piece! Well done

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Dec 2017 03:16

Zynda wrote:Didn't Pak have Sparrow missiles in service during Kargil? Or was it acquired/gifted later from US post 9/11? Wiki entry on Sparrow mentions PAF as one of the users of the missile.

Pakistan boasted but never had Sparrow missiles. They had Block 15 F-16 and not the later Block 25 with radars capable of continuous wave illumination for Sparrow missiles.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2017 03:18

nachiket wrote:
Zynda wrote:Didn't Pak have Sparrow missiles in service during Kargil? Or was it acquired/gifted later from US post 9/11? Wiki entry on Sparrow mentions PAF as one of the users of the missile.
Kaiser Tufail in his blog post about the PAF in Kargil confirmed that no PAF fighter (including the F-16) was BVR capable. So no sparrows. They directly moved to the AMRAAM int he 2000's.

Good memory.

Also does anyone remember a net poster (ex-PAF fame, he was assumed to be Tufail in mufti). He posted a hilarious tale about the MiG-29 vs F-16 incident. Old hands will remember that one.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2017 03:19

Another pro-Gripen dude flew on the aircraft and posted the numbers for A2A around 300 km plus for airliners. IMHO, the basic issue for Tejas is whether its electrical system has been sized appropriately for the higher power radar (pre-AESA). The radar is at the end of a long end of systems.
AESA itself adds more range because of less losses in the Tx-Rx path.

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:Both the radars should be able to exploit the Meteor at shorter ranges than its full performance, which is what I guess tsarkar means (can exploit but sub-optimally).

Its RMax seems to be 150km per Parrikars statements. NEZ guessing for a ramjet is a mugs game, so I will not even attempt to try.

SAAB has a PS-05 variant meant for Meteor.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... gripen-cd/

From a Gripen flight by a journo at Aero India, it could track airliners some 300 km away. Assuming it was the latest Mk4 variant, and estimating 30 sq mtrs per airliner (large ones etc), that gives around 190 km against a 5 sq mtr target (loaded fighter). This is not the whole answer as its always significantly easier to detect larger targets, so lets deduct another 20%, rough thumbrule, so around 150 km.

Not bad and should allow for Meteor usage.

Now what do we know of the EL/M-2032 variant on the LCA, its around the 80km range for 2 sqmtr targets (with the british radome), then its around 100 km for a 5 sq mtr target.

Not as powerful at all as the PS-05 MK4 but fairly reasonable.
I stated the same thing, that both sets could exploit a Meteor, even if not fully. The basic theory being that with similar peak output powers and array size, they should have similar acquisition and tracking ranges (taking into account the new Cobham radome). Ballpark figures of course.

But Vishnu Som had this to say about the difference (based on his limited knowledge of the systems) on Keypubs. So maybe the Gripen C's radar has been optimized further to be able to take full advantage of the Meteor's range. Whereas the Tejas has clearly a lot of potential to be a fantastic air to ground striker. The Elta 2052 set should allow for longer air to air detection and tracking ranges and full exploitation of the Meteor or Astra Mk2 (if its range is higher than 100 kms).

A quick observation ... I was lucky to be flown onboard the LCA Tejas and the Gripen D on consecutive days last week and have a small observation to make. The Synthetic Aperture mode of the PS-05 V3 (possibly V4) on the Gripen was markedly inferior to the resolution provided by the Elta EL/M 2032 set onboard the Tejas while looking down and ground `targets. However, the air to air range on the Gripen's radar (not disclosing numbers here) was singularly impressive - meant to take advantage of the phenomenal range of the Meteor missile.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Dec 2017 03:26

^^ What's the point in spending money, time & effort in qualifying a missile and not able to use it to full range? In that case, use Astra or Derby. The Swedes developed new Hardware & Software - in essence a whole new radar to match the missile.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... gripen-cd/

A new hardware configuration with a complete new radar back-end...A new Air-to-Air mode...signal processing capacity and the flexible waveform generation

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2017 03:27

Right Kartik, the original LCA MMR aim (I remember this from ADA presentations made at seminars etc) was 100 km for 2 sq mtr target. That's what the radar & electrical systems were all designed for. I assume the Indo-Israel hybrid is also capable of this.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2017 03:30

tsarkar wrote:^^ What's the point in spending money, time & effort in qualifying a missile and not able to use it to full range? In that case, use Astra or Derby. The Swedes developed new Hardware & Software - in essence a whole new radar to match the missile.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... gripen-cd/
A new hardware configuration with a complete new radar back-end...A new Air-to-Air mode...signal processing capacity and the flexible waveform generation

The full range is RMax. But if you use the missile at closer quarters, it has more fuel & basically, you might end up firing the missile with a higher Pk. The point is a Meteor on a LCA class fighter, though initially disregarded may be a very useful addition even so, because its combination of fuel status + ramjet may make it very lethal at ranges not approaching its so called maximum range. But of course, its very expensive.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2017 03:32

Another thing is the datalink needs to be Meteor capable (fighter to missile). If the LCA can take offboard sources - say from another fighter, like a Rafale, then a brace of LCAs can be missileers for a Rafale above & beyond its stated loadout. A very niche capability to be sure because of the disparity in fuel and endurance. Perhaps Meteor is best added to the Su-30. Even today, its Bars is capable of Meteor like shots (public range figures which are sanitized apart). Considering we might have to share crucial integration data with MBDA, if they refuse to provide us the freedom/codes to do the integration on our own, IAF may demur. Perhaps the only option for Su-30 then is an Astra Mk-2. A quick and dirty answer could be to take the MRSAM dual-pulse motor and add it to the Astra Mk-1. That was what was originally planned anyhow. Better than waiting for SFDR alone.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 03:41

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:^^ What's the point in spending money, time & effort in qualifying a missile and not able to use it to full range? In that case, use Astra or Derby. The Swedes developed new Hardware & Software - in essence a whole new radar to match the missile.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... gripen-cd/
The full range is RMax. But if you use the missile at closer quarters, it has more fuel & basically, you might end up firing the missile with a higher Pk. The point is a Meteor on a LCA class fighter, though initially disregarded may be a very useful addition even so, because its combination of fuel status + ramjet may make it very lethal at ranges not approaching its so called maximum range. But of course, its very expensive.

Tail Chase regime of Meteor would be useful. Astra has a head-on range of 80km while the tail-chase range of 20km. I would imagine if the head-on for Meteor is 150km then the tail-chase would be roughly around 50km range.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 12 Dec 2017 03:48

NEZ for most AMRAAM class datalinked BVR is ~20 miles.

Cost of the BVR is mute as its risks the life of pilot, as well the airframe. If LCA ca carry it, and if it allows it to look first/shoot first, then it should be on it. Didn’t IAF put R-77s on Mig-21s?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Dec 2017 04:03

Sid wrote:NEZ for most AMRAAM class datalinked BVR is ~20 miles.

Cost of the BVR is mute as its risks the life of pilot, as well the airframe. If LCA ca carry it, and if it allows it to look first/shoot first, then it should be on it. Didn’t IAF put R-77s on Mig-21s?

Interesting point. According to this 1999 article from flightglobal, the range of the Kopyo radar on the Mig-21-93 (Bison) is 57km for a 5m2 target. Definitely less than the max range of the R-77. We still equipped our Bisons with the R-77.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2017 04:41

Yes but the Meteor is what, over two million dollars a round. Its a very expensive round. Cost for Luftwaffe was around 3 Million plus a round counting integration costs. That could be a reason why IAF doesn't have it everywhere.

Second more important point. If MBDA insists on being involved in the integration, IAF will have to share critical radar, weapons control data with the MBDA team. That obviously flows back to France and NATO. IAF may demur.

Alternatively, if MBDA only provides assistance on integration i.e. interface issues, providing Meteor details so IAF can add its own datalink to guide the missile etc, it can be done.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2017 05:55

tsarkar wrote:^^ What's the point in spending money, time & effort in qualifying a missile and not able to use it to full range? In that case, use Astra or Derby. The Swedes developed new Hardware & Software - in essence a whole new radar to match the missile.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... gripen-cd/
A new hardware configuration with a complete new radar back-end...A new Air-to-Air mode...signal processing capacity and the flexible waveform generation

Because, even at ranges of 80-100 km, a Meteor will be far deadlier missile with a much larger NEZ and lot more energy than an AMRAAM, Astra or R-77. Till we get an indigenous ramjet BVR (if ever), this will be the top of the line BVRAAM in the IAF.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2017 06:01

So, it appears that the daunting issue with Tejas integration with Meteor would be its exorbitant cost. For now, they will need to integrate Astra on it first.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Dec 2017 06:09

For now their aim should be - Derby -> Astra -> Derby I. These will be as good meteor within the radar ennvelope. And integration should be a lot easier.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 06:34

^^^
ER Derby-I integration taking place from what I undetstand.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Dec 2017 07:03

I sure hope so but i've seen reports that suggest otherwise too. Keeping fingers crossed although am sure that that mk1a will have the Derby I so that the radar range can be better exploited.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 12 Dec 2017 07:26

Karan M wrote: Now what do we know of the EL/M-2032 variant on the LCA, its around the 80km range for 2 sqmtr targets (with the british radome), then its around 100 km for a 5 sq mtr target.

Really?

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 08:06

^^^
For AEW&C sized targets, LCA would be able to fully-exploit Meteor range of 150km.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2017 09:50

Kartik wrote:However, the air to air range on the Gripen's radar (not disclosing numbers here) was singularly impressive

What national secrets is Vishnu holding back here?

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 12 Dec 2017 10:30

shiv wrote:
Kartik wrote:However, the air to air range on the Gripen's radar (not disclosing numbers here) was singularly impressive
What national secrets is Vishnu holding back here?

Probably NDA, not OSA.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Dec 2017 11:35

Prasad wrote:Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force

Excellent article!. Great work. Loved the selection of data for comparison, use of maps, diagrams and specially the references. Folks, kindly spread the Good Word.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 12 Dec 2017 11:39

Dileep wrote:
Karan M wrote: Now what do we know of the EL/M-2032 variant on the LCA, its around the 80km range for 2 sqmtr targets (with the british radome), then its around 100 km for a 5 sq mtr target.
Really?

The emoji says something.....

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Dec 2017 12:15

Karan M wrote:
Prasad wrote: Coming from you saar, that is high praise!
I echo Indranil's words. Very well written and comprehensively articulated. The author should take a bow (and DDR for consistently producing such high quality articles). I wish some more had been written on the Tejas's avionics and systems, plus weapons capabilities. But seriously, that is just jingo-giri.

Thanks for the kind words. There was more $$ data but just not coherent enough to put it succintly. And this piece was long enough.

Kartik wrote:
Prasad wrote:Lca is being integrated with the I-Derby ER which has a range of 100km. Guess who sees first first and shoots first?
And nothing prevents the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A from being integrated with the Meteor either. If the Gripen C/D can be integrated with the Meteor and use it, so can the Tejas Mk1.

If someone argues that the Tejas Mk1 cannot exploit the full range of the Meteor as its tracking range is not 150 km, then that should apply to the Gripen C as well. Both have mechanically scanned arrays, similarly sized and the Elta 2032 is a really good radar, as is the PS-05A on the Gripen C/D.

The issue with the METEOR is that is humungously expensive per round. The I-derby ER promises 80-90% performance at a third of the cost or something (the article has numbers). So no wonder the IAF would balk at equipping all its squadrons with the METEOR, especially when the derby and a future astra variant will have higher ranges.

As for the Gripen, the METEOR was developed along with the radar together from what I remember reading. So no wonder that they work well together. Will post when I find that link.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Dec 2017 12:16

deejay wrote:
Prasad wrote:Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force
Excellent article!. Great work. Loved the selection of data for comparison, use of maps, diagrams and specially the references. Folks, kindly spread the Good Word.

Thank you saar. I'd hope people take a good long look at the range-bubble map, especially in the eastern sector.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 12:34

^^^
Would have been nice to see 500km radius map as well. There is a need to dispel commonly reported 300km radius as that is the worst possible figure. Instead, best possible ranges should be hyped up, IMO.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Dec 2017 12:37

^ I will tweet the map and images separately too. Lets see if it catches fancy.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Dec 2017 13:37

Srai,
Will see if we can add a 500km map too.

Meanwhile LCA facebook page says SP7 had its first flight today.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Dec 2017 14:20

BTW does Tejas have supersonic drop tanks? The Tejas in webpage tejas.gov.in has 2 different drop tanks on either wing with one stremlined more than the other. Is the light bluw drop tank a supersonic drop tank?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Dec 2017 14:47

Prasad wrote:Srai,
Will see if we can add a 500km map too.

Meanwhile LCA facebook page says SP7 had its first flight today.