LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2017 12:23

Singha wrote:even if the SEF is structured as a private sector deal with someone on our side being the lead agency (not HAL), ultimately Govt money (our money) will be paid to that said agency, and they will pay royalty to the OEM. the pvt agency will need to invest in a factory, and getting people and training them, all of this will be part of the pkg loaded cost which Govt will have to pay - just as we pay a huge amount for FMS sales under the training, support etc category.

so it does not matter, in the end you and I will be paying for every nut and bolt that the armed forces purchase.

This post
viewtopic.php?p=2233256&sid=fb5d0d2e898 ... 4#p2233256

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Nov 2017 12:34

There is no MAY. No businessman will pay for IAF's jets. That comes from taxpayer money.

Also there is no MAY on will there be an upfront deposit or not. Without the deposit, not a single bolt moves. You can check any recent deal. Either GoI has paid, or in some cases GoUS has paid on behalf of GoI for momentary (a few months) relief.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Nov 2017 12:42

deejay wrote:Posting separately since this is a pure conjecture but to be read with what I posted above on ability of military to decide:

To those asking why does the IAF not clarify against news appearing about stupid comparison of Tejas. Think of it this way - IAF cannot move an inch without MoD. News has been leaked (sourced) from MoD. IAF now must go to press and clarify against such news leaking from MoD. Hmmm, in a situation where there are multiple battles going around over at the MoD, this is just another one.

IMHO, the new Def Minister crossed a Rubicon when she asked the military commanders to come with solutions and not just present a problem. Some people at the ministry will certainly lose a lot if the military starts offering solutions.

While agree with you, what stops IAF from clarifying their stand and rubbish the comparison. MOD will still do what they want but atleast IAF as organisation will keep their integrity intact. Also, remember, Mango Abdul's only read the reports which shouts on top of voice that IAF rejectedTejas being inferior and that IAF have those comparative figures. aam.admi is not knowing that all the decision to purchase fighters so far were MOD and in some cases IAF were against them. For them it is IAF all along

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Nov 2017 13:56

Singapore defense minister Dr. Ng Eng Hen has flown in the LCA (PV-6) at Kalaikunda airbase.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Nov 2017 14:09

Is the news out already? Where?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Nov 2017 14:12

Indranil wrote:Is the news out already? Where?

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/9 ... 7328609280

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/935416112002379776

Are they looking for buying it ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Nov 2017 14:17

No. It was at MoD/IAF's behest.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2017 14:43

Indranil wrote:No. It was at MoD/IAF's behest.

Can the IAF really call the Singaporean defence minister and tell him that he can have a joyride on Tejas. It must be MoD and MoD alone - via usual diplomatic channels.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Nov 2017 14:50

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Nov 2017 15:02

Oops, didn't realise the size of the image.

More pictures here.

DPR:

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 8565487617
https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 5109889024

https://twitter.com/Ng_Eng_Hen/status/9 ... 9881477120

Privileged to be flown on the #Tejas, India's own designed and manufactured fighter aircraft. A very good plane. #fighteraircraft @IAF_MCC

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 28 Nov 2017 15:09

End of the rumour mill , thank god.
Does India like to fly the Defence Minister of a strategically important country in orphaned aeroplanes.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Nov 2017 15:21

This is a good way of replying to useless press reports etc. Well done all.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Nov 2017 15:21

I was hearing raksha mantri may fly as well. Anyways. It's a good day!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Nov 2017 15:30

Given Singapore's small size, they don't need anything more than LCA. Get an order of 40 and kill this talk of SEF forever.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Nov 2017 15:41

V.good PR.Great job MOD.The ripples will be felt wide and far!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Nov 2017 15:51

JTull wrote:Given Singapore's small size, they don't need anything more than LCA. Get an order of 40 and kill this talk of SEF forever.

Singapore currently operates F-15SG, and the F-16. The Vipers are not very old and will be replaced by the F-35 as Singapore has planned for quite some time given they are a SCP on the JSF program. Don't think there is room there for a third type but this goes beyond a sale prospect and speaks of cooperation and confidence in the system.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Nov 2017 16:06

The MOD should now invite a galaxy of pilots from air forces of friendly nations to fly the LCA and het their feedback.I suggest the Central Asian republic's, IOR nations like SL, S.Am countries,African friends like S.Af., and some ASEAN nations incl. the Vietnamese and Taiwanese too!
A great LCA "fest." could be hosted by the MOD/Hal and IAF.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Nov 2017 16:15

Philip wrote:The MOD should now invite a galaxy of pilots from air forces of friendly nations to fly the LCA and het their feedback.I suggest the Central Asian republic's, IOR nations like SL, S.Am countries,African friends like S.Af., and some ASEAN nations incl. the Vietnamese and Taiwanese too!
A great LCA "fest." could be hosted by the MOD/Hal and IAF.

MOD should be working on getting more orders and 3rd and 4th line in production by 2020. Make sure 200 orders are placed and order more on IOC/FOC config to ensure no production gaps while waiting on the IA.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Nov 2017 16:16

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:No. It was at MoD/IAF's behest.
Can the IAF really call the Singaporean defence minister and tell him that he can have a joyride on Tejas. It must be MoD and MoD alone - via usual diplomatic channels.

You are right, IAF has no call on this. It would be MoD/DRDO (ADA)/HAL.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Nov 2017 16:24

brar_w wrote:
JTull wrote:Given Singapore's small size, they don't need anything more than LCA. Get an order of 40 and kill this talk of SEF forever.
Singapore currently operates F-15SG, and the F-16. The Vipers are not very old and will be replaced by the F-35 as Singapore has planned for quite some time given they are a SCP on the JSF program. Don't think there is room there for a third type but this goes beyond a sale prospect and speaks of cooperation and confidence in the system.

Good number of those are based in US.

Regular exercises in India could be used to suggest a squadron of LCA owned by them could be permanently based here too.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Nov 2017 16:27

Again, there is no reason for them to look to procure a third aircraft type just for that unless they look at an advanced trainer or something that can help transition pilots. Just because they may operate out of infrastructure, or do or plan to do regular exercises with the IAF in India isn't a good enough reason imho to buy a third type if there is no operational need as such. As I said, this move speaks volumes in the MOD's confidence in the Tejas as a system and its overall maturity and safety. I wouldn't read too much into it besides that. As far as Singapore is concerned, they have not floated a need to pick a third type but if so I'm sure like most procurements it will be a long winded process with plenty of options and competitors, including the option of retaining upgraded F-16s for that role.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 28 Nov 2017 17:06

Brar saar agreed. The SGAF has been involved with rhe IAF for a long long time around Kalaikunda for many years now. This does indeed speak volumes about confidence in Tejas as a system great news.

In terms of SGAF needs there is really no place for Tejas or any other type at this juncture. They currently operate probably the strongest fighter force in their neighbourhood with the inclusion of Aus. The only place where the RAAF holds a higher edge is in Aew and elint signit and jammer platforms. However the SGAF has been operating yehudi conformal aews for a while now.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Nov 2017 17:20

JTull wrote:Given Singapore's small size, they don't need anything more than LCA. Get an order of 40 and kill this talk of SEF forever.

What a country needs for its defence is upto its security planners no? Their threat assessments and security needs will dictate what they need.

In case of Singapore their Air Force is very well equipped.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 28 Nov 2017 17:32

JTull wrote:Oops, didn't realise the size of the image.

More pictures here.
DPR:

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 8565487617
https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 5109889024

https://twitter.com/Ng_Eng_Hen/status/9 ... 9881477120

Privileged to be flown on the #Tejas, India's own designed and manufactured fighter aircraft. A very good plane. #fighteraircraft @IAF_MCC

Superrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Now Yindoo Yel See Yay is rocking.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 28 Nov 2017 17:37

Philip wrote:The MOD should now invite a galaxy of pilots from air forces of friendly nations to fly the LCA and het their feedback.I suggest the Central Asian republic's, IOR nations like SL, S.Am countries,African friends like S.Af., and some ASEAN nations incl. the Vietnamese and Taiwanese too!
A great LCA "fest." could be hosted by the MOD/Hal and IAF.

That's a fabulous idea Tovarisch Philip. The jingo heart yearns to see the LCA become the Mig 21 of Indian aerospace

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Nov 2017 18:04

JTull wrote:Singapore defense minister Dr. Ng Eng Hen has flown in the LCA (PV-6) at Kalaikunda airbase.

This could mean that the RSAF pilots have flown it before and paved the way for their defence minister to take a spin.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 28 Nov 2017 18:16

SSridhar wrote:This could mean that the RSAF pilots have flown it before and paved the way for their defence minister to take a spin.

But why the secrecy? I cannot recall any reports of SGAF pilots flying Tejas or for that matter Tejas participating in joint Indo-SGP exercises in Kalaikunda.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Nov 2017 18:30

Any pics of Tejas from the Hawk?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Nov 2017 19:21

Philip wrote:The MOD should now invite a galaxy of pilots from air forces of friendly nations to fly the LCA and het their feedback.I suggest the Central Asian republic's, IOR nations like SL, S.Am countries,African friends like S.Af., and some ASEAN nations incl. the Vietnamese and Taiwanese too!
A great LCA "fest." could be hosted by the MOD/Hal and IAF.

Of course we need politicians from other countries and their pilots to tell us how good the Tejas is. If it was roosi, there would be no need eh!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Nov 2017 19:34

Indranil wrote:Already plumbed. In maximum bomb config, it can carry 7 1000 lb bombs or 5 LGBs.

Someone asked on Tejas FB page, if its possible to carry 7x1000lbs bombs. The admin says yes. Payload of ~3800kg. Just for the records.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 Nov 2017 19:40

Indranil wrote:Is the news out already? Where?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2017 19:41

Indranil wrote:There is no MAY. No businessman will pay for IAF's jets. That comes from taxpayer money.

Also there is no MAY on will there be an upfront deposit or not. Without the deposit, not a single bolt moves. You can check any recent deal. Either GoI has paid, or in some cases GoUS has paid on behalf of GoI for momentary (a few months) relief.

You, like others, are jumping the gun and talking about what could happen AFTER a production line is set up in India IF that line is set up with the required private investment. Taxpayer will pay only IF the production line is set up and that line MAY be set up if the businessmen think it will work.Till then you and I will not spend one paisa on this.

I am not sure how anyone can insist that government money will be spent on a production line to be planned and set up by two private companies. What recent deal has been made between an Indian private company and a foreign private player where the government has paid a deposit?

This is all OT for this thread. I will be happy to continue on the SE thread.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Nov 2017 19:41

Brilliant ploy, getting a phoren neta to fly in the Tejas, and that with no slouch but an Air Marshal at the controls. Hardly the action of an IAF that wants to diss the Tejas.
Must be panicked reaction to Dr. Shiv's jhapad.

More like a car than a fighter plane..

Hmm!! I wonder how to spin that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2017 19:47

Until 12 hours ago a large number of people on the forum were lamenting that Tejas was not coming in numbers fast enough. Now suddenly we have started the rumour that Singapore is interested in buying and the it is exactly what Singapore needs. Why are such distortions of information bad when they come from mainstream media but fine on BRF? If we think that "they" must be responsible and that we need not be, then we must accept that our lack of responsibility also makes us huge zeroes in terms of accurate information

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Nov 2017 19:55

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:Already plumbed. In maximum bomb config, it can carry 7 1000 lb bombs or 5 LGBs.
Someone asked on Tejas FB page, if its possible to carry 7x1000lbs bombs. The admin says yes. Payload of ~3800kg. Just for the records.

That is 160% of load carried by Mig-21. Plus with 7 hardpoints, the aircraft can carry versatile loads (A2A, A2G, ) into the battlefield, by virtue of being smaller than the Mig, it will be stealthier, because of its composite structure it will be lighter and stronger than the Mig, the FBW system will reduce pilot workload and the flight control systems make it a safe aircraft to fly (compare with Mig-21/23/27 safety records in IAF service), multimode radars and standoff weapons give it the ability to light up the enemy first.

The only flaw - IAF requirement for it to be a "light" aircraft with a point defence interception mission profile. Now the IAF is requiring it to be multirole, yet not outgrow its weight. In Engineering parlance - this is an oximoron. However, the compromise aircraft is ready - far more capable than the Mig-21, and safer to fly.

Is the IAF ready to order 250 LCAs or was the taxpayer taken to the Arjun showroom again? We will wait and see. Not holding my breath.

There is a campaign to blame the babus and spare the IAF - where were the babus when the sitting air chief took on Rahul Gandhi? Where again were the babus when the retd Air Chief and his deputy took on the politicos about punitive retaliatory strikes into POK. The brass can hold its own. So why can they not publicly glorify the LCA?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 Nov 2017 19:56

shiv wrote:Until 12 hours ago a large number of people on the forum were lamenting that Tejas was not coming in numbers fast enough. Now suddenly we have started the rumour that Singapore is interested in buying and the it is exactly what Singapore needs. Why are such distortions of information bad when they come from mainstream media but fine on BRF? If we think that "they" must be responsible and that we need not be, then we must accept that our lack of responsibility also makes us huge zeroes in terms of accurate information

I am waiting for IDRW to pop up with an article saying Is Singapore interested in buying tejas? or should we sell tejas to Singaore?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Nov 2017 19:59

We need songs along the lines of

Big Ol Jet Airliner..
Don't carry me too far away!
Big Ol Jet Airliner..
'Cause it seems like to gotta stay!

Where are the poets & songwriters? The Bollywood herrows with a Mission to North Kailash (aka Lhasa)? Wonder if the payload capacity is enough to lug SRK's ego.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Nov 2017 20:13

Singapore Defence Minister hails Tejas fighter jet as 'excellent'

KALAIKUNDA: Singapore Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen today hailed India's indigenously-built multi-role light combat aircraft Tejas as "excellent and very impressive".

As the first civilian foreigner, Hen took a half-an-hour flight in Tejas at the Kalaikunda airbase here.

"It is an excellent aircraft and it is very impressive," Hen told reporters here.

He praised Air Vice Marshal A P Singh, the pilot who flew the Tejas, saying he felt as if he was riding a car and not flying in a fighter aircraft.

Asked whether Singapore is interested in buying the Tejas fighter aircraft, Ng said he is not a pilot and it is for the technical people to take a call on it.

Indian defence sources said Singapore has evinced interest in Tejas.

During the Bahrain air show where Tejas aircraft was showcased, some countries in the Middle East had also shown interest, the defence sources said.

Two Tejas aircraft were flown in here from Bangalore for displaying them to the Singapore Defence Minister.

Air Vice Marshal Singh who flew Ng is the project director of the National Flight Test Centre-Aeronautical Development Agency.

Tejas aircraft was designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to the Indian Air Force and the Navy.

The Singapore Defence Minister is scheduled to meet his Indian counterpart Nirmala Sitharaman in Delhi tomorrow.

"Bilateral defence ties between our two countries are strong and it is getting stronger," Ng said.

Singapore Air Force is holding joint military training with their Indian counterpart at the Kalaikunda airbase.

Asked about the joint military training, Ng said, "I hope this will continue for long".

The first joint military training between Indian Air Force and the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) was held at the Gwalior air force station in 2004.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Nov 2017 20:45

"It Was Really Smooth": Singapore Defence Minister Flies India's Tejas Fighter
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/it-was- ... er-1780976

India's indigenous light combat aircraft, the Tejas, which is being inducted into the Air Force - has a new brand ambassador. Ng Eng Hen, 59, the Defence Minister of the island nation of Singapore, flew in the rear cockpit of the plane from the Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal. "I am not a pilot," said Dr Ng, asked about whether Singapore plans to buy the Tejas. "But I can say it felt like I was riding in a car; it was really smooth." This is a shot in the arm for the Tejas progamme which has been criticised repeatedly for delays in its development.

The Singaporean Air Force is in India with six F-16 jets for annual joint exercises with India. For a month now, about 100 Singapore air force personnel have been stationed at Kalaikunda with six F-16s. Singapore has very little airspace available in its own island nation and has been leasing out the Kalaikunda base for its drills since 2004. "Singapore is a small country but with a big heart," said Air Marshal Anil Khosla, a senior officer of the Eastern Air Command. "When we do exercises for a whole month together, we learn best practices from each other." Do Indian Air Force pilots get a chance to fly the F16s? "Not really," said the Air Marshal. Dr Ng piped up and said, "We don't fly the Sukhois either." Letting out a chuckle, the Defence Minister signed off saying, "It is like chef using different equipment. You learn to cook better."

Behind the light-hearted banter, the India-Singapore defence cooperation agreement is serious business. It was signed first in 2003 and then upgraded in November 2015 when Prime Minister Modi visited Singapore to celebrate 50 years of of diplomatic ties between the two countries. "Our defence cooperation relationship is very strong and is growing stronger and I will be having a second dialogue with Nirmala Sitharaman in Delhi tomorrow," said Dr Ng. India's strategic partnership with Singapore is part of India's Look-East policy, its historic ties with the island country and with an eye on China's attempts to strengthen its influence in the South East Asian region.

China already has considerable say with Bangladesh, Myanmar, Philippines and other nations in the region, but Singapore has been a consistent friend to India. But will Singapore buy the Tejas fighter? Sources in the India's defence ministry say they have expressed ground-level interest but an actual placement of an order is very distant. In fact, the top priority will be to meet the needs of the Indian Air Force, sources said. No comment, however, on reservations reportedly expressed in some quarters on the effectiveness of the Tejas. "Sub-optimal, insufficient fighter platform" is how some IAF quarters have described it, reportedly.

TPFscopes · Post by **TPFscopes** » 28 Nov 2017 21:19

Center fuselage manufacturing progress at VEM Tech.