LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Kartik » 06 Feb 2018 00:28

link to FG

05 February, 2018 SOURCE: Flight International BY: Murdo Morrison Tel Aviv

India and Australia are among the Asia-Pacific nations that Rafael has firmly in its sights with its current and in-development weapons and targeting systems. The company is “in the final stages” of developing the third and latest, ER, version of its I-Derby radar-guided air-to-air missile, and is eyeing a deal with New Delhi, which has already fitted the current I-Derby on its Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft.

Rafael is also pitching its ubiquitous Litening targeting pod for India’s future fleet of Dassault Rafales.
Meanwhile, the Haifa-based company has opened an office in Melbourne as it looks to develop Australian industrial partnerships to help pitch the likes of the I-Derby, shorter-range Python-5 air-to-air missile, and Spice air-to-ground weapon system.

As with all Israeli defence companies, the export market and partnering agreements are crucial for Rafael, despite the business’s prime role as the provider of firepower for the Israeli military. Until 2001, Rafael was a ministry of defence weapons research and development laboratory. Now, although still state-owned, the company, which employs 7,000 people mainly in two sites in the north of Israel and made $2.17 billion revenues in 2016, comes under the remit of the ministry of finance. It functions as an independent enterprise that has to compete for government contracts, file its accounts, and robustly market its products overseas, often in joint ventures or teaming arrangements in countries keen to establish local production and gain some transfer of technology. These include a manufacturing site in Orlando, Florida.

..

Rafael – which developed its RecceLite tactical airborne reconnaissance system from Litening, using exactly the same housing – is working on the next-generation of the targeting system, which it expects to have operational within three years. Although the pod will be identical, the ongoing miniaturisation of the electronics means the product can pack in additional computing power and more advanced sensors. “It looks the same outside, but will be very different inside,” says Weiss. India – which uses the pod on several types of combat aircraft and has already committed to the Litening for its Tejas – could add to its inventory if it commits to the system the 36 Rafales it has on order. The sensors for the country would likely be manufactured by a local company, part owned by Rafael.

Among Rafael’s other prominent airborne offerings are its I-Derby and Python families of air-to-air missiles, which the company offers as complementary products. Again, thanks to more compact electronics, the latest-generation I-Derby ER, unveiled in 2015 and due to be available for delivery from 2020, has gained about 60cm of missile length over its predecessor, claims Rafael, creating space for a second pulse for the rocket motor and doubling its range to more than 54nm (100km). “We hope to finish negotiations soon to complete the first sale,” says Weiss. The origins of the beyond-visual-range Derby go back to the 1980s, and the latest version comes equipped with a new solid state seeker, “look-down/shoot-down” capability, and electronic counter-countermeasures to penetrate aircraft defence systems.

Spike is Rafael’s helicopter-mounted anti-tank missile – the company has delivered about 30,000 to 26 customers – and the latest version, the Spike-LR II, is due to be operational later this year, with the first customer, thought to be the Israeli military, in place. The product has an increased range of 5.4nm from helicopters, and gains a new electro-optical/infrared seeker with smart target tracker capabilities, says the company. Also, because the weapon’s weight has been reduced to 12.7kg (28lb), Rafael sees a new potential on lighter rotorcraft from the likes of Bell Helicopter or MD Helicopters, turning what are essentially more affordable, commercial platforms into attack aircraft. “We are working with manufacturers to try to market this combination of a great weapon system with a light helicopter,” says Weiss.

In terms of other programmes, Rafael also expects initial operational capability later this year for the newest variant of its main air-to-ground glide bomb, the Spice 250. The weapon carries a 250kg warhead and, using winglets, can glide to targets up to 54nm away. Four weapons can be deployed at once from a Smart Quad Rack on the aircraft.

Another new programme is X-Guard, a re-usable, fibre-optic cable-towed decoy. The system works by luring attacking air- and surface-launched missiles from the aircraft by creating a more attractive false target signal – including those using monopulse and lock-on receive-only techniques, resulting in impact and explosion a safe 100m or more away, says Rafael.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Khalsa » 06 Feb 2018 02:19

ArjunPandit wrote:
Indranil wrote:All of you are wrong. There was a synchronization problem in shooting through the propellers. So they have decided to mount the gun backwards. There are many advantages of this. This will prevent aircrafts from lining up at the rear in close combat and also aid in acceleration whenever required.

i read this post with utmost seriousness to realize....


Yeah me too
I actually thought about turbine blades thinking how come he called them propellers before the word synchronisation kicked in.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 06 Feb 2018 05:38

Folks,

ToI has again published one of those junk articles on the Tejas. Let’s hammer them down wherever it pops up (in comments, editorial, forums, emails, upper management, GoI/MoD etc).

Name and shame the unnamed “senior IAF official” being quoted in that article.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2018 06:05

srai wrote:Folks,

ToI has again published one of those junk articles on the Tejas. Let’s hammer them down wherever it pops up (in comments, editorial, forums, emails, upper management, GoI/MoD etc).

Name and shame the unnamed “senior IAF official” being quoted in that article.

Haven't read the article but how do you name and shame someone who is not named? How do you even know if they are real? If the article is written by someone like Rajat Pandit, it is almost 400% certain the senior official only exists in Pandit's head.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 06 Feb 2018 06:13

^^^
From what I can tell, there is this one "senior IAF official" that has been used by all of these junk articles. I think Ananthan Krishnan/Saurav Jha had mentioned he found out who that official is in one of his tweets some time ago.

A lot is rehashing of the story and quotes over and over again. They have had got their quotes a while ago from one of the officers (maybe an ex) and ever since they have been using his comments over and over again. So all of this nonsense can be put to rest if that official is told about the use of his quotes and if he still stands by it and is willing to come forward if he believes what he says. I am pretty sure he will back down and tell these journos to stop using his statements.
Last edited by srai on 06 Feb 2018 06:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby vasu raya » 06 Feb 2018 06:30

Aditya_V wrote:Vasu Raya to which countries do the Chinese export the flanker derivatives.To my knowledge it is none. It is only the F-7 and JF-17. Only the Mig 21 iterations.


On the export bit, Brazil has a Gripen production line if we ever choose the aircraft as part of the SEF program. Brazil built Swedish design will be exported, HAL can build similarly.

Btw Chinese Flanker clones are currently stationed close to Doklam going by the reports, seems like they have faith in them.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2018 06:43

^^^ I don't know which one is funnier: the discussion on LCA's gun or LCA Mk2 being Gripen NG airframe + Tejas FCS. What are you smoking boss?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby vasu raya » 06 Feb 2018 06:52

Actually its porting of all possible Tejas sub systems to the readily available NG airframe. 2027 is far away no harm in having fun.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 07:37

vasu raya wrote:Actually its porting of all possible Tejas sub systems to the readily available NG airframe. 2027 is far away no harm in having fun.

It it's a question of having fun with this idea - it should really go in the "Design your fighter thread"

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby vasu raya » 06 Feb 2018 09:22

Let me rephrase the question, how much of the Tejas sub systems (both from Mk1 and the projected Mk2) can be substituted in the SEF downselect? so that the Life cycle cost of the selected aircraft can be determined on the buyer's terms. For practical reasons lets say the downselect is Gripen NG.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Gagan » 06 Feb 2018 09:26

Someone is testing flying a canard on BRF to see if it will fly or fall down like a rock

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Feb 2018 09:30

How do you import into a different airframe the FCS of a totally diffent aircraft ?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby yensoy » 06 Feb 2018 09:45

prasannasimha wrote:How do you import into a different airframe the FCS of a totally diffent aircraft ?


Go to "Device Manager". Click on "Scan for Hardware Changes", accept the dialogs which pop up and in about 20 minutes you will be done.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby SaiK » 06 Feb 2018 09:56

vasu raya wrote:Let me rephrase the question, how much of the Tejas sub systems (both from Mk1 and the projected Mk2) can be substituted in the SEF downselect? so that the Life cycle cost of the selected aircraft can be determined on the buyer's terms. For practical reasons lets say the downselect is Gripen NG.

Sheesh.. you would choose Mk2 for all practical reasons. And the answer is >70%. Stop assuming SEF is firang frame. You know the answer otherwise.

Your question is prococative to allign minds subliminally against LCA.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 Feb 2018 10:05

While we are kite flying :
I would really love to see a Tejas Mark III-U.
Made in India for US.
Will have Indian airframe, FCS and US engine, radar & missiles.
Costing < $50M.
Or another version Tejas Mark IIIT-U (Advance Trainer version)
These can be exported in 100+ numbers to US.

We are all allowed to dream, right?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby sankum » 06 Feb 2018 12:36

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
49 minutes ago

#TejasUpdate | The first #Tejas production variant from HAL's Aircraft Division SP5 seems to have overcome a spate of nagging issues pointed out by the certifying agencies & now ready for 1st flight. SP5, SP8 & SP11 are earmarked for Aircraft Div. @akananth

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cybaru » 06 Feb 2018 12:41

vasu raya wrote:Actually its porting of all possible Tejas sub systems to the readily available NG airframe. 2027 is far away no harm in having fun.

Gripen NG is slated for 2026 foc only . One year earlier.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2018 14:17

yensoy wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:How do you import into a different airframe the FCS of a totally diffent aircraft ?


Go to "Device Manager". Click on "Scan for Hardware Changes", accept the dialogs which pop up and in about 20 minutes you will be done.


:D :lol: Good one. Works every time

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2018 15:35

prasannasimha wrote:How do you import into a different airframe the FCS of a totally diffent aircraft ?


Very simple. Watch Altered Carbon on Netflix. Convert Tejas 'systems' into a stack and import into any sleeve. If this can be done for human beings it can be done for Tejas. No problems.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby chetak » 06 Feb 2018 15:49

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:How do you import into a different airframe the FCS of a totally diffent aircraft ?


Very simple. Watch Altered Carbon on Netflix. Convert Tejas 'systems' into a stack and import into any sleeve. If this can be done for human beings it can be done for Tejas. No problems.


But, will nude tejus look as sexy as some of the "sleeves" in Altered Carbon ??

If they did, a great many "scientists" would willingly spend decades trying to do it, no??

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby fanne » 06 Feb 2018 16:48

sankum wrote:Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
49 minutes ago

#TejasUpdate | The first #Tejas production variant from HAL's Aircraft Division SP5 seems to have overcome a spate of nagging issues pointed out by the certifying agencies & now ready for 1st flight. SP5, SP8 & SP11 are earmarked for Aircraft Div. @akananth



Is the aircraft Div the 1/2 line?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Feb 2018 21:54

fanne, Yes Its the three aircraft from the 1/2 line.

I wish defense journalists learn to write in clear English. What the heck is earmarked for Aircraft Division?

Why can he say they are product of the Aircraft Division?

And have huge egos as if the products emerge because they write about them!!!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Feb 2018 22:18

Indranil. I just thought about the gun firing business.

To check out the gas ingestion, recoil and all other effects except target damage effects, HAL/ADA can use the blank or training rounds. These will give all the inputs needed for these effects.
Only the last mile qualification of target damage needs to be with real rounds.

This will be a useful cost avoidance.

So HAL should go ahead and complete this work.

In effect this adds a few more steps to the gun firing trials

1.0 Gun Firing trials
1.1 Gas Ingestion with blanks
1.2 Recoil qualification with training rounds...
1.3 What not...
1.4 Target damage evaluation with actual rounds.



IAF already knows the target damage effects of the GSh-23 mm from the various aircraft like Mig-21 etc.

can you pass this on?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Indranil » 07 Feb 2018 00:09

It is not HAL's mandate to get FOC. ADA and IAF will figure this out.

They have done some tests before. They don't anticipate any problems structurally at least. In the previous tests, the plane was on the ground and tethered. That requires maximum structural strength and did not throw any surprises.

The next point is my guesstimate. I don't see gas ingestion as a major problem. The muzzle of the gun is at a point where the boundary layer and spilled air from the intake should safely take it away from the gases below and behind, i.e. away from the actual intakes. Even if limited amount of gas is ingested, that should not be a problem from a modern FADEC controlled engine like the F404. And even if it does create a problem, there are remedial procedures to prevent the engine from flaming out. With so many layers of safety, I am not worried.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2018 03:16

Indranil wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Our eagerness to see the LCA in numbers and progressive variants makes us ask these questions Indranil..

And keeps the conversation flowing..

We all are in the same boat. A swadeshi fighter for our swadeshi air force!



Aye Indranil. You know what we desire the most! :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 07 Feb 2018 04:45

Indranil wrote:It is not HAL's mandate to get FOC. ADA and IAF will figure this out.

...

There were some recent reports of HAL asking for the approval of the production for the next 20 in FOC configuration. They need the go-ahead soon. So that may be a procedural hold up in the Indian bureaucratic process as to when FOC is achieved (IAF/ADA) and when production can begin (HAL) (i.e. freeze SOP and release funds).

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby vasu raya » 07 Feb 2018 06:17

SaiK wrote:
vasu raya wrote:Let me rephrase the question, how much of the Tejas sub systems (both from Mk1 and the projected Mk2) can be substituted in the SEF downselect? so that the Life cycle cost of the selected aircraft can be determined on the buyer's terms. For practical reasons lets say the downselect is Gripen NG.

Sheesh.. you would choose Mk2 for all practical reasons. And the answer is >70%. Stop assuming SEF is firang frame. You know the answer otherwise.

Your question is prococative to allign minds subliminally against LCA.


SaiK Maharaj,
thanks for answering the main question which is 70% sub systems can be shared, first of all SEF shouldn’t have happened, everyone here wishes for that, though its IAF that opened it, so if we take a fall back position, it could be SEF with Tejas sub systems versus an entire imported SEF, a total loss of forex.

If these subs systems are cost competitive they could be part of the broader SEF supply chain. The f-16 brigade is promising such setup, but within their own eco system. We could do the same with what we have from the LCA program. I don’t know why this is an issue to be mocked at when we saw in a recent slide where IAF is shown as having the highest import value of the three wings. Maybe subliminally we are playing 'its not my department' game ...

Cybaru,
Gripen NG airframe is frozen, and there is no Tejas Mk2 prototype flying.
----

Why did the DRDO have to step in to fix or improve the armor of the T-90s? after the T-90s were bought at full price.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2018 06:44

vasu raya wrote:Cybaru,
Gripen NG airframe is frozen, and there is no Tejas Mk2 prototype flying.



Sure, you are right. But its still doable, 2026 is 8 years out. Perhaps we can commit to more number of prototypes and speed things up.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Philip » 07 Feb 2018 07:43

It increasingly looks like a quick-fix to avoid another round of development- read MK-2, of which there are many uncertainities,will see the SEF of choice chosen instead .Being better performing aircraft than the 1A, they would be the imported equiv. of our MK-2. The next desi programme being the AMCA while MK-1A prod. of around 120+ will be the max. that we can expect ordered.The IAF in any case love imports and won't complain.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby ramana » 07 Feb 2018 08:24

Folks can we take Gripen discussion to SEF thread? It's not germane.Thanks,

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby tsarkar » 07 Feb 2018 13:15

srai wrote:Folks,

ToI has again published one of those junk articles on the Tejas. Let’s hammer them down wherever it pops up (in comments, editorial, forums, emails, upper management, GoI/MoD etc).

Name and shame the unnamed “senior IAF official” being quoted in that article.


I left the following comment at the site. However, most other comments, mostly left by members here, are not factual and borderline insulting, thus ending up being detrimental to the cause. You cant make a person realize the truth by abusing and shaming him.

Dear Editor & Journalist,

This article is speculative that does not truthfully reflect the actual facts.

Firstly, the LCA Air Staff Requirements (ASR) were quite high by the standards of the day, being met by few high class expensive fighters like Mirage 2000 & F-16 and not met by standard fighters like Jaguar and MiG Series comprising 90% of IAF fleet at all times.

Despite such a high bar, and the fact that we were building a fighter from a scratch with no know-how and infrastructure, ADA is on track to meet Tejas ASR on Instantaneous Turn Rate (ITR), Sustained Turn Rate (STR) and Angle of Attack (AoA) by its Full Operational Clearance (FOC). Its aerobatic capabilities were amply displayed at Bahrain Air Show in 2016 where it pulled 8 g climbs and in exercises like Iron First 2016.

Secondly, regarding range, the IAF ASR specified a “Light Combat Aircraft”. Its like initially asking for a small hatchback like Maruti 800 and later on criticising it for not having the fuel capacity of a high end sedan. The IAF got the range it asked for in 1982. After something got developed, one can’t suddenly change the goalpost.

Thirdly, the senior IAF official closely associated with the testing of Tejas prototypes referred to in your article doesn’t seem to aware of the current progress of the program, that has moved from prototype vehicles (PV) to limited series production (LSP) to serial production (SP) with significant improvements in each phase.

As a matter of professional integrity, he should come on record with his point of view rather than share incorrect facts anonymously. If the officer has courage of conviction, then he should openly state the facts for public discussion, otherwise he is making cowardly frivolous comments in an un-officerlike manner completely showing lack of officer like qualities based on which he got his commission.

In addition, then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had banned delay in programs based on anonymous complaints, that more often reflected vested interests. As India develops its own missiles and fighters, lucrative billion dollar markets get closed for foreign companies and they resort to dishonest techniques like falsified facts of failure to stop progress of indigenous programs. Even foreign manufacturer exploits the oligopoly to extort money from India for defence products that we’re left with no choice but to pay. We also remain at the mercy of sanctions of the foreign nation. Indigenous products destroy that vicious cycle of high costs extorted by foreign manufacturers.

I would humbly request the editorial and journalist team of Times of India to portray a correct picture instead of vague anonymous reports. Your sister organisation Indiatimes has done a factual report on No 45 Squadron IAF where pilots flying and maintaining Tejas have spoken about the true capabilities of the aircraft.

Let truth prevail!

Regards
TSarkar

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby srai » 07 Feb 2018 13:38

Very well written tsarkar saab!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby JTull » 07 Feb 2018 13:55

SJha had predicted this kind of article only 2 days earlier. Lifafa journalism is alive and kicking.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby jaysimha » 07 Feb 2018 14:10

my feeling is,,, they purposely write such derogatory articles..
.
.so that
.
some one inside ( or who know clearly things going on ) will get annoyed and
.
write to them the details which later they can pass to...............whom we know...
.
.
Tsarkarji info is easily made available to them at no cost..
.
.
we should let DDM to die a natural death with wrong / half info

.
we can monitor our progress/programs only through official channels like Mod/PIB/ DRDO / Indian army etc..
.
They all publish reports in daily basis

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=mvnewsclipping.jsp

https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/Site/PressRelease/frmPressReleaseDetail.aspx?MnId=84jv/kAQqEV+J2A0scbXsA==&ParentID=dVD5icmzWH2kUhc8z3gyEA==&flag=uMeF3e/WxacoB3L9KT84+w==

https://mod.gov.in/dod/major-achievements

http://www.hal-india.com/Media%20Releases/M__30

itd. itd..

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 07 Feb 2018 15:09

jaysimha wrote:my feeling is,,, they purposely write such derogatory articles..
.
.so that
.
some one inside ( or who know clearly things going on ) will get annoyed and
.
write to them the details which later they can pass to...............whom we know...
.
.
Tsarkarji info is easily made available to them at no cost..
.
.
we should let DDM to die a natural death with wrong / half info

.
we can monitor our progress/programs only through official channels like Mod/PIB/ DRDO / Indian army etc..
.
They all publish reports in daily basis

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=mvnewsclipping.jsp

https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/Site/PressRelease/frmPressReleaseDetail.aspx?MnId=84jv/kAQqEV+J2A0scbXsA==&ParentID=dVD5icmzWH2kUhc8z3gyEA==&flag=uMeF3e/WxacoB3L9KT84+w==

https://mod.gov.in/dod/major-achievements

http://www.hal-india.com/Media%20Releases/M__30

itd. itd..


Good point. I doubt very much if there is a real 'senior officer' source behind this. This point has been made above as well by many posters. One point - anybody leaving comments on TOI or anywhere else, please make sensible comments based on fact. Not screaming shouting to satisfy your egos 'that I have done something'. T Sarkar sir has set an excellent example. Follow it in your comments.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 07 Feb 2018 15:20

http://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/b ... 650805.cms

AM Bhaduria CnC SAC and ex test pilot of Tejas getting a sortie. Remember 45 Sqdn will be under his command in SAC.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Pratyush » 07 Feb 2018 15:28

Personally I don't understand why such stupid articles are being published at this point of time. Tejas will be built and IAF will take them as fast as hal can make them. Their is no other option.

So it makes no logical sense for such idiotic pieces to be published and yet we see one such piece every month like clockwork.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2018 15:34

Good rebuttal tsarkarji

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby jaysimha » 07 Feb 2018 15:36

yes sir, news from horse mouth

http://www.hal-india.com/AOC-in-C%20Southe/ND__211

HAL has established the state-of-the-art aircraft assembly line including second production line for LCA to meet the operational requirements of the IAF. Currently, HAL has the production capacity of eight LCAs per annum and is ramping up the capacity to 16. The ramping-up cost is shared equally by HAL and IAF/Navy. Major sub-assembly such as front, centre and rear fuselages and wings have been outsourced to the private players.

Bhaskar_T
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions: 15 August 2017

Postby Bhaskar_T » 07 Feb 2018 17:06

French Air Force Chief flies Tejas but couldn't find (yet) any comments from him.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 819915.cms


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