India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jun 2020 20:59

khan wrote:
debadutta wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/SJha1618/sta ... 7646328833
Only 5-10 killed as per Saurav Jha
To me Saurav Jha is the best analyst out there. He says things Jingos don’t like to hear, takes a lot of abuse for it & has ended up right so far.

His twitter feed is not pretty.

He has claimed alot of outrageous stuff , so you belive this, that 45 Indian soldiers captured, 135 injured, all contradicting what the Indian Army is saying. PLA says things which Jingos don't like to hear- that does not make right or telling the truth

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1272894310376235008

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 19 Jun 2020 20:59

bharathp wrote:
ldev wrote:
Ironic isn't it. They are so sure that India plays by the Queensbury rules that they are willing to bet their lives on it. It would be funny in other circumstances.
is it because we play by the rules or is it because we wont show the political will to fight it out.
even if we lose, I would prefer a fight to lose - so there is a cost associated with land grabbing.

As I Dev said, a couple of Fuel Air Explosive bombs inside that gorge will kill everything inside it, and probably rain down a few thousand tonnes of debris as well from the mountains. They haven’t grabbed anything. They’ve shuvved their d***s inside the keema machine. We can press the on button whenever we want.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 21:01

bharathp wrote:so there is a cost associated with land grabbing.

You've hit the nail on the head. There has been no cost to China, either military, diplomatic or economic levied by India for all the years of land grabbing, salami slicing. So if get something without paying for it, why will you stop? Why will China stop?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jun 2020 21:01

Is there an official reference map available for where the LAC actually lies? Otherwise we would working with a constantly receding line through the years.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 19 Jun 2020 21:03

ks_sachin wrote:Because they can see the bridge the first sign of a threat they will try to blow it up no?

Sir are you referring to the bridge across Galwan that got completed today? That bridge is 3km into the valley and not part of the DSDBO road, blowing it up serves little purpose.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Jun 2020 21:03

ldev wrote:
eklavya wrote:There’s only one way out of the gorge, and we can train a hundred guns on that area. I’m also expecting landslides to happen, what with the Chinese farting inside the gorge, etc. So, if they want to surge towards the road, we should invite them to do so.
Actually they have built access roads down into the valley on their side. That is how they have got those 100 vehicles which include bulldozers and other earth moving machinery down to the river bed. So they can go back the way they came. But if India decides to take the intiative and attack with artillery or preferably FAE explosive, they will have not time to run back, but will be cooked.

The whole calc is that we will accept the new status quo.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 21:04

abhik wrote:Is there an official reference map available for where the LAC actually lies? Otherwise we would working with a constantly receding line through the years.

It has receded in the last few days

The Google map I posted, a few days ago, based on a 2016 image showed the LAC about 5 km away from the confluence of the Shyok and Galwan rivers. The Reuters map of June 16, that I posted yesterday shows the LAC 500 meters from that confluence of the 2 rivers!!

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 21:06

ks_sachin wrote:
ldev wrote: Actually they have built access roads down into the valley on their side. That is how they have got those 100 vehicles which include bulldozers and other earth moving machinery down to the river bed. So they can go back the way they came. But if India decides to take the intiative and attack with artillery or preferably FAE explosive, they will have not time to run back, but will be cooked.
The whole calc is that we will accept the new status quo.

Which in all likelihood we will. Their calculation is simple. Will India go to war to throw us out of what we have just occupied? Unlikely. They have got a pandemic in the country, the economy is not in great shape, it will be huge gamble for the ruling Government. So they will huff and puff and then accept the new status quo.

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Jun 2020 21:10

ks_sachin wrote:
ldev wrote: Actually they have built access roads down into the valley on their side. That is how they have got those 100 vehicles which include bulldozers and other earth moving machinery down to the river bed. So they can go back the way they came. But if India decides to take the intiative and attack with artillery or preferably FAE explosive, they will have not time to run back, but will be cooked.
The whole calc is that we will accept the new status quo.

No - the whole point is they can build whatever the hell they want to on their side.

If they want to build a road beside a river in a gorge and park a couple of hundred trucks there on their side of the LAC - that’s their right.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 19 Jun 2020 21:12

khan wrote:
debadutta wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/SJha1618/sta ... 7646328833
Only 5-10 killed as per Saurav Jha
To me Saurav Jha is the best analyst out there. He says things Jingos don’t like to hear, takes a lot of abuse for it & has ended up right so far.

His twitter feed is not pretty.

Even if what he says is true, what is the need for him to post the number on Twitter...? What is he going to achieve expect to say "I told you so" when Govt. releases the same officially few days later...?
There is a narrative war parallelly going on between India and China... What is the need for him to post anything that may potentially spoil India's narrative...?
There are some ppl who have questioned him about this and asked him to name his sources and he is simply calling them names...

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 19 Jun 2020 21:13

^^^^
India has not and will not accept the status quo. Their positions are diplomatically and militarily untenable. Government will take action as and when it’s appropriate. Probably not wise to discuss too much in public forum.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Jun 2020 21:14

yensoy wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Because they can see the bridge the first sign of a threat they will try to blow it up no?
Sir are you referring to the bridge across Galwan that got completed today? That bridge is 3km into the valley and not part of the DSDBO road, blowing it up serves little purpose.

I was responding to Khan post. If we want to go towards PP14 then the bridge is our shortest route which then would be a target for the defender

williams · Post by **williams** » 19 Jun 2020 21:14

ldev wrote:
eklavya wrote:There’s only one way out of the gorge, and we can train a hundred guns on that area. I’m also expecting landslides to happen, what with the Chinese farting inside the gorge, etc. So, if they want to surge towards the road, we should invite them to do so.
Actually they have built access roads down into the valley on their side. That is how they have got those 100 vehicles which include bulldozers and other earth moving machinery down to the river bed. So they can go back the way they came. But if India decides to take the intiative and attack with artillery or preferably FAE explosive, they will have not time to run back, but will be cooked.

Yea we can use artillery, but the best thing to do is use air power. Throw some cluster bombs and take out the large base with food storage facility 10 km down to the plains and you are done. But that is an escalation and you should be prepared for a response. In fact, we can simply enforce pre-April positions with just airpower. The problem is always about managing the post escalation scenarios. We need time to prepare for that.

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 19 Jun 2020 21:16

abhik wrote:Is there an official reference map available for where the LAC actually lies? Otherwise we would working with a constantly receding line through the years.

there wont be one. it will always be "India's perception" and "China's perception". because the Indian and Chinese govts never agreed to one line.

we will work with a receding line because we havent imposed a cost to the land grab by the chinese the same way we imposed a cost on TSP on kargil land grab.

The way I see it, Chinese taught the Pakistanis on how to grab land and thats why we had kargil.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Jun 2020 21:17

eklavya wrote:^^^^
India has not and will not accept the status quo. Their positions are diplomatically and militarily untenable. Government will take action as and when it’s appropriate. Probably not wise to discuss too much in public forum.

We arm chair generals are privy to top secret info? You think the PLA has not war gamed possible Indian responses as we have?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Jun 2020 21:18

williams wrote:
ldev wrote: Actually they have built access roads down into the valley on their side. That is how they have got those 100 vehicles which include bulldozers and other earth moving machinery down to the river bed. So they can go back the way they came. But if India decides to take the intiative and attack with artillery or preferably FAE explosive, they will have not time to run back, but will be cooked.
Yea we can use artillery, but the best thing to do is use air power. Throw some cluster bombs and take out the large base with food storage facility 10 km down to the plains and you are done. But that is an escalation and you should be prepared for a response. In fact, we can simply enforce pre-April positions with just airpower. The problem is always about managing the post escalation scenarios. We need time to prepare for that.

After we bomb them what then?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 19 Jun 2020 21:20

ks_sachin wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
India has not and will not accept the status quo. Their positions are diplomatically and militarily untenable. Government will take action as and when it’s appropriate. Probably not wise to discuss too much in public forum.
We arm chair generals are privy to top secret info? You think the PLA has not war gamed possible Indian responses as we have?

Probably not to be honest, because knowing our track records they don't expect a response, and so far, other than us jingos, no one has been disappointed.

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 19 Jun 2020 21:20

PM Modi's comments during all party meet
=====================================
Neither have they intruded into our border, nor has any post been taken over by them (China). 20 of our jawans were martyred, but those who dared Bharat Mata, they were taught a lesson: PM Narendra Modi at all-party meet

Whether it is deployment, action, counter-action...air, land or sea, whatever our armed forces have to do to protect our country they will do: PM Narendra Modi at all-party meeting

Today, we possess the capability that no one can eye even one inch of our land. India's armed forces have the capability to move into multiple sectors at one go: Prime Minister Narendra Modi at all-party meeting

Till now, those who were never questioned or stopped, now our jawans stop them and warn them at multiple sectors: PM Modi at all party-meeting today

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Jun 2020 21:21

I don’t understand this nonsensical statement, seems like they decided to accept the status quo:

Breaking now!

@PMOIndia’s comments at all-party meet on India-China issue:

“Nobody has entered our territory. Neither has anyone captured any of our posts.”

“20 of our men were martyred, but those who dared to look Bharat Mata in the eye, they taught them a lesson”

https://twitter.com/poulomimsaha/status ... 69088?s=21

Clearly the land between Finger 4 & 8 was entered.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 19 Jun 2020 21:22

ks_sachin wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
India has not and will not accept the status quo. Their positions are diplomatically and militarily untenable. Government will take action as and when it’s appropriate. Probably not wise to discuss too much in public forum.
We arm chair generals are privy to top secret info? You think the PLA has not war gamed possible Indian responses as we have?

No secret info here. Just saying, be patient.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 19 Jun 2020 21:24

ldev wrote:
abhik wrote:Is there an official reference map available for where the LAC actually lies? Otherwise we would working with a constantly receding line through the years.
It has receded in the last few days The Google map I posted, a few days ago, based on a 2016 image showed the LAC about 5 km away from the confluence of the Shyok and Galwan rivers. The Reuters map of June 16, that I posted yesterday shows the LAC 500 meters from that confluence of the 2 rivers!!

The current Google Earth map also shows LAC 5km East of Shyok-Galwan river confluence...
The fight on Monday happened barely few metres from this LAC only...
(If this Satellite photo is to be believed---> https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/12 ... 5982083073)
Assuming our soldiers were able to go all the way to this point, I guess that Reuters map is fake...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Jun 2020 21:25

Raveen wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: We arm chair generals are privy to top secret info? You think the PLA has not war gamed possible Indian responses as we have?

Probably not to be honest, because knowing our track records they don't expect a response, and so far, other than us jingos, no one has been disappointed.

Raveen please!!

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 19 Jun 2020 21:28

ldev wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: The whole calc is that we will accept the new status quo.
Which in all likelihood we will. Their calculation is simple. Will India go to war to throw us out of what we have just occupied? Unlikely. They have got a pandemic in the country, the economy is not in great shape, it will be huge gamble for the ruling Government. So they will huff and puff and then accept the new status quo.

Its ridiculous the govt is waiting for so long. The more we wait the more it legitimizes their stay, changes the LAC, new photos of their positions and longer opportunities to fortify and grab new area spread from there.

A few bombs will give them the shiver and even if they attack and cause problems on our side it will at least put them back a few years. The govts response should have been swift post galwan incident especially considering the time we had to understand their buildup. Govt shouldn't be showing so much patience(or some other word).

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 19 Jun 2020 21:28

People here are assuming a lot taking about chinese vulnerabilities and how we can dislodge them . If we had the political will and guts to use bombs or AF, we would have done by now. The fact is Modi govt like the Sonia gandhi/Moun Singh govt before does not have the political will to execute hard military options against China. Modi has already declared that Chinese did not entered Indian territory. Which is true. They havent entered Indian controlled territory. But they entered the disputed area from finger 4-8. So are we saying we are relinquishing our claims to them now ?

This is a leak from the army. Will the govt has the guts to back them up ?

Some in forces favour ‘limited action’ to send message to China .

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 453968.cms

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 19 Jun 2020 21:29

https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/tensi ... se-border/

Some days behind the times, but an interesting outside perspective

Also relevant: a 2 year old perspective has a couple of interesting points, I had not remembered, or had missed : the use of hyperbaric chambers, and the integration of SOF, ISAR and regular troops. Obviously some things have changed since then

https://warontherocks.com/2017/01/hard- ... ith-china/

"However, and in contrast to India, China has built a number of oxygen-rich, hyperbaric chambers in order to more rapidly acclimatize its follow-on forces."

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Jun 2020 21:29

eklavya wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: We arm chair generals are privy to top secret info? You think the PLA has not war gamed possible Indian responses as we have?
No secret info here. Just saying, be patient.

You know something is brewing or patience and have faith because we have just spanked the shalwar wearers?

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 19 Jun 2020 21:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYtVD5cn54s&t=28s
No disengagement by China in Galwan Valley

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jun 2020 21:32

eklavya wrote:
ldev wrote:In the Galwan sector, China has advanced about 4.5 km. The LAC was 5 km from the DBO road. At the time of the clash the PLA had advanced to within 500-700 meters on the other side of the Shyok river. Also there are numerous positions 1-2 kms behind that forward position and then about 100 vehicles 5 kms behind. When the PLA descended into the valley, actually more of a narrow, steep sided gorge, they were in a death trap. One FAE bomb dropped on them would have turned up 1000-2000 Kung Fu boiled chicken, ready to eat for the birds. But China knows that India will scrupulously follow the letter of the law and respect the no firing agreement. So they came down into the valley with impunity. And as of today they have a mass of troops a few hundred meters from the DBO road, ready to surge forward and cut off the road. No doubt India will counter attack and may reclaim the road, but the assured safety of that road has been compromised, because the PLA can disrupt that road at will at a time of their choosing.
Aren’t they sitting inside a death trap? Is it really so smart to be stationed inside the gorge?

They are not trying to control the gorge, they are trying to cutoff our jugular to DBO and northern Ladakh. Even if they don't move any further from where they and demobilise, they would have succeed in achieving:
(A) Making a claim to the whole Galwan valley (which certain "experts" on our side said was not really disputed) and militarily back that claim up by grabbing as much of it as possible and turning the area they don't control into a new grey zone.
(B) Building permanent road and infrastructure so that they can push ahead to convert the grey zone into to red zone, at a time of their choosing in the future.

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Jun 2020 21:35

Sumair wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYtVD5cn54s&t=28s
No disengagement by China in Galwan Valley

The headline is misleading, if you watch the video, they acknowledge that disengagement has not happened anywhere other than Galwan.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 21:35

This is an ABSOLUTE MUST READ.

https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/china ... akh-clash/

So fundamentally Chini view any infra build on our side of LAC as unacceptable tactical gain for India! China building roads on it's side, giving support to Pak, nukes etc doesn't matter, but India cannot have tactical gain in LAC infra! As i expected, an Indian force of 300K with really good roads up to LAC is always an threat to Tibet.

Compare that to absolutely zero noise by us on Chinese infra in Aksi Chin!

The Chinese are not looking at resolving LAC. They don't want infra because looks like the intention is to get back the areas which it conquered in 62!

We should sort our build up. This is not going anywhere but war in the future. And a 2 front war, if we don't sort out Pak soon.

More the better in roads, more closer we are to the war.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jun 2020 21:35

I really hope that a full scale conflict never happens.

Because if it does, some of you folks will get asthma attacks and die. We are in a de-facto state of war right now. Losses will happen and more losses will come. If you cannot stomach that fact, please leave the forum NOW. Many of the same folks too during Balakot - hyperventilating and expecting "Sylvester Stallone/Rambo-style" operations against the Chinese. Then there is another group that posts fake maps and whips up others into a frenzy. Then there is a third group that questions everything that comes out from the Govt without even bothering to think about the statement that has been put out.

The Indian Army knows what it has to do and will take whatever steps necessary. They know the border situation better than anyone else on this forum. Let the official info come out and let the Indian Army do her job.

This is the first and last warning - anymore of this and I will start issuing one month bans right away. Sit out on the sidelines and read. You will do yourself and the rest of the forum a BIG favour. Repeat offenders will get life time bans.

I would emphasize what eklavya said - Be Patient.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jun 2020 21:38

Locking this thread for one hour. Everyone Relax.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jun 2020 22:38

Thread has been unlocked. Please follow the instructions from both the above posts.

Senior or junior poster - moderators will show no mercy. Your presence will not be missed.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 19 Jun 2020 22:47

The map uploaded by Reuters is correct and matches with the LAC on Google Earth...
But the MARKED-UP LAC IN RED IS WRONG IN THIS PHOTO...

The confluence shown here is NOT the confluence of Shyok and Galwan rivers... It is the confluence of Galwan river and a rivulet...
This confluence point is 5 km to the East of the Shyok and Galwan confluence...
The person who uploaded the pic would have got confused between the two confluence points...

The so called 'DBO' marked in this photo is Galwan River...

I hope it puts everyone's doubts to rest...

ldev wrote:
nam wrote:The Chinese are behind PP14, which is around 4KM from Shyok. They are no where near Shyok.

The reason they want PP14 is because it allows direct line of sight towards DBO road. It is a L shaped valley, turning right at PP14.
This is the Reuters satellite photo of June 16, the day after the clash. The red dots are Chinese vehicles, structures. Look at the map scale and see the distance to the first cluster of red dots. The second big red cluster of 100 PLA vehicles is where the LAC is. So yes, that major PLA force is where the LAC is, 4-5 km away. The purple dots are Indian vehicles and positions.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Jun 2020 22:50

YashG wrote:If prc lobs srbm missiles into indias population centres - what will we do immediately? Its good to know our options.

Here is China population density map, most population dense areas are under coverage of

1. Agony 3 (2.5 Ton Payload)
2. Agony 5 (1 Ton Payload)

Cheeni Commies won't recover from hits by Agni missiles

https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 90818?s=09

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jun 2020 22:52

Thank You Lakshman for clarification.

The rule has now been set, so maps like this will not be permitted anymore.

LakshmanPST wrote:The map uploaded by Reuters is correct and matches with the LAC on Google Earth...
But the MARKED-UP LAC IN RED IS WRONG IN THIS PHOTO...

The confluence shown here is NOT the confluence of Shyok and Galwan rivers... It is the confluence of Galwan river and a rivulet...
This confluence point is 5 km to the East of the Shyok and Galwan confluence...
The person who uploaded the pic would have got confused between the two confluence points...

The so called 'DBO' marked in this photo is Galwan River...

I hope it puts everyone's doubts to rest...

ldev wrote:This is the Reuters satellite photo of June 16, the day after the clash. The red dots are Chinese vehicles, structures. Look at the map scale and see the distance to the first cluster of red dots. The second big red cluster of 100 PLA vehicles is where the LAC is. So yes, that major PLA force is where the LAC is, 4-5 km away. The purple dots are Indian vehicles and positions.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Jun 2020 22:55

Aditya_V wrote:
khan wrote: To me Saurav Jha is the best analyst out there. He says things Jingos don’t like to hear, takes a lot of abuse for it & has ended up right so far.

His twitter feed is not pretty.
He has claimed alot of outrageous stuff , so you belive this, that 45 Indian soldiers captured, 135 injured, all contradicting what the Indian Army is saying. PLA says things which Jingos don't like to hear- that does not make right or telling the truth

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1272894310376235008

Not sure what happened to him. His indigenization stance is absolutely valid. The Chandigarh lobby and the bureaucrats within MOD don’t want it. However, his negative perspective is a dramatic change. I think that those who are not heard by the government end up always trying to prove a point and get noticed. Some move like that Shukla person move into dangerous territory.
Saurav is still a patriot and nationalist albeit miffed by the government. He should be careful that his announcements do not compromise government moves accidentally.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 19 Jun 2020 22:57

--- Since you are unable to follow simple instructions, kindly enjoy a one month ban----

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 23:00

---POST DELETED---

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 19 Jun 2020 23:05

Not sure but maybe modi will solve pakistan issue first... then tackle the chini issue ... the picture has just begun... if push comes to shove ..a few concrete bunkers dont count for much inside a deep gorge ...