India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 28 Jun 2020 04:06

NRao wrote:
There were a couple of incidents that occurred during NS's era that I do not think will come to bite

Who is NS?

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 28 Jun 2020 04:30

Anyone have a good explanation for China's desire to change the status quo? Why on earth did they start this. Their official claim is the road and base next to Aksai Chin. Is this the entire story. Is this some kind of message to show power and scare India from trying to reclaim Aksai Chin?

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 28 Jun 2020 04:35

I think if the Chinese mass aircraft in Skardu as per some reports, this gives us a great opportunity to make a break for Gilgit Baltistan. At that point China has to decide if they want to fight Pak's war. Our forces are currently amassed in the guise of responding to China. My guess is China will not fight Pak's war. Infact, another outcome might be that Taiwan declares independence at the same time, leaving China with egg on its face.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 28 Jun 2020 04:54

Another nice video by major arya, interviews Lt.Gen Shekatkar, of the famous Shekatkar report.
https://youtu.be/lpWO0MW5b5I

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 28 Jun 2020 05:01

There have been voices preceding this standoff of how India will take over POK & gilgit baltistan.
Perhaps this standoff was meant to prevent such an eventuality. No one in the govt & IA is pursuing that any more & soon monsoons will make it impossible in 2020

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 28 Jun 2020 05:17

Having a defensive mindset wrt to territory or in general being a defensive force means we put handcuffs in our thinking both tactical and strategic. There should be no reason we let the Chinese do salami slicing and we dont respond in kind except when we declare an open war. This game requires balls and a business minded mindset. You do this and I will do that and you wont know about it until I tell you about it.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 28 Jun 2020 05:31

This is Chandrashekhar Athwale, an amateur historian who maintains a fantastic website of historical and contemporary articles, including several fantastic ones on the 1962 war:

The front page to his website Akshardhool

His must read blog on Karakoram Pass and the routes leading to and from it:

India's Ancient Gateway to Central Asia

Check this map of Aksai Chin that has every major pass in the region noted. These are worthwhile military objectives, even today. You will be spending a lot of time on the map, but please remember that I have written about Gapshan below the map

Map from Royal Geographic Society via Chandrashekhar Athwale

Gapshan

In the map above, follow Saser Pass to the east. One route from Saser Barangsa (called Saser Polu in the map) goes eastwards towards Murgo (Murghi in the map), and then to DBO. This was the traditional summer route of caravans. Now take a look at the other route that goes Northwards and then eastwards from Saser Barangsa towards DBO. This was the original winter route of caravans. It goes up the Shyok River valley, and enters Depsang Plains near the Apsaras Peaks (Northern Siachen Glacier is to its west). Gapshan is located on this route, close to where the Chip Chap river enters the valley and becomes Shyok River.

Gapshan is of enormous strategic importance as an alternate and well protected gateway to Depsang plains. Indian forces routed by the Chinese in 1962 used this route to retreat to Saser Pass. Hari Nair ji indicated that he flew over this route when he used to fly to DBO. Foot patrols may have been using this pass for decades, but I do not find public mention of that. I suspect that this route is the reason India has been able to hang on to a part of Depsang Plains in spite of Chinese dominance of the eastern half of the plains since the 50's. It is a winter route because Shyok river becomes a raging torrent in early spring due to snowmelt. Flow volume is so large that DBO used to be cut off before Col Chewang Rinchen bridge was built farther downstream and inaugurated just last October. Another major challenge is that there are two glaciers in upper Shyok valley that in past have been known to advance all the way to the eastern ridge and cause glacier dams (article by mountaineer Harish Kapadia). Even ordinarily, the glaciers squeeze the river all the way to the mountain side, which has a near vertical face. The engineering challenges to building a road here are similar to those faced on Saser Pass, where BRO has been trying to build a road for 20-30 years! However, if those challenges are overcome, India will have a secure and unassailable route to Depsang Plains, DBO, KKP and even the northernmost parts of Siachen Glacier.

Another major takeaway from the map above: Marsimik La to Shamal Lungpa is a traditional Silk Route (see Gogra is mentioned even in this old map!). No wonder this is still being fought over.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 05:42

Please watch the vid posted by Guddu:

The IA retd Gen. says, very clearly, they did all the analysis and suggests that India must act. And act how? Bloody China so it takes China 15-20 years to recover. And, we are thinking in terms of silly Fingers and Valley!!!! The strike Corps on the Eastern sector is not an accident. Think about it and then use it properly. 15-20 years.

I will take 10 years. The point is that enough analysis has taken place. Nobody, including this gov has acted on the recommendations of Indians. His recommendations are apt. Not following is not an option IMHO.

Rollback beyond Apr, 2020 - as far as possible. Else we will still be wondering 10 years from now. It will hurt, no two ways about that. Other like minded nations need to pitch in whatever way they can. UN needs to take a vacation.

NS = Nirmala Sitharaman

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 28 Jun 2020 05:53

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Raveen wrote:

You guys are a hoot - all the US wants right now is for the hans to get pounded. They want China to lose more than anything.
Let's see how much help comes from USA. BRF seems agreed upon that they're helping with satellite imagery and intelligence about cheeni army moments, what else. Hopefully I turn out to be wrong and you right that US helps unconditionally.

Nothing is unconditional, no one said unconditional. That however does not mean they're stage playing this. That's crazy talk, they're hoping and helping India kick Han ass.

Even Gorky wasn't unconditional, had to buy junk planes in addition to the price increases.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 28 Jun 2020 06:53

nam wrote:
Larry Walker wrote: It is technically going behind enemy lines. So if they somehow bypass the Chinese and teach F8 and then Chinese block return path - then wudnt our soldiers be in "Chinese custody" ?? Imagine what will happen on our prime-time news channels.
You send equal number, if required an entire battalion. They can be in custody only if they are cut off and surrender.

If physically attack our men, we shoot. ROE has been modified.

IMO any kinetic action from India will have to start with F4-F8.
This is because it is well known to the world that it is disputed territory.
IA has a right to patrol its troops in this territory till the conflicting claims are resolved.
We must drive away the Chinese from F4-F8 just like Bihar 16 did from PP14 area.
This time it has to be a mix of diplomatic, media and army offensives to capture the world's imagination and get the world on our side.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 06:57

rajpa wrote:
nam wrote:
You send equal number, if required an entire battalion. They can be in custody only if they are cut off and surrender.

If physically attack our men, we shoot. ROE has been modified.
IMO any kinetic action from India will have to start with F4-F8.
This is because it is well known to the world that it is disputed territory.
IA has a right to patrol its troops in this territory till the conflicting claims are resolved.
We must drive away the Chinese from F4-F8 just like Bihar 16 did from PP14 area.
This time it has to be a mix of diplomatic, media and army offensives to capture the world's imagination and get the world on our side.

The world should know that the entire Aksai Chin is disputed.

Time to focus on the bigger picture and reverse the Chinese narrative.

Start anywhere to take Aksai Chin. Anywhere, even in China occupied Tibet.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 28 Jun 2020 06:58

Start small and think big.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 06:58

Act bigger.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 28 Jun 2020 07:01

Every finger has to fold to become a fist. (Not a Chinese Aphorism!)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 07:08

Prepare for India border row to escalate, Chinese strategists warn Beijing

Martial arts experts. Now:

Deployment of non-lethal weapons such as stun grenades ‘should also be an option’

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 28 Jun 2020 07:11

NRao wrote:Prepare for India border row to escalate, Chinese strategists warn Beijing

Martial arts experts. Now:

Deployment of non-lethal weapons such as stun grenades ‘should also be an option’

NRao,

You’ll get a kick out of this article, specially the first paragraph.

https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/06/ ... adversary/

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2020 07:29

Rishirishi wrote:Anyone have a good explanation for China's desire to change the status quo? Why on earth did they start this. Their official claim is the road and base next to Aksai Chin. Is this the entire story. Is this some kind of message to show power and scare India from trying to reclaim Aksai Chin?

The Chinese always have multiple objectives.

To ‘Teach India a lesson’ as in 1962 or in Vietnam
To put India ‘in its place’, especially after c. 2008
Grab as much real-estate as possible during this Wuhan Corona virus time
Provide more buffer to the G219 Highway
Settle the border dispute by ‘force/deception’ to achieve larger goals [ c. 2035 & 2050 ]
Protect Gilgit-Baltistan – the Critical chokepoint for CPEC
To influence India’s strategic / tactical decisions (Quad, WHO)
Deflect attention from within to outside, especially India
Raise national fervor amidst Corona, Trade War, 5G, Huawei/ZTE, Hong Kong, Economy
Show to the rest of the world, especially the US & its allies, who the hegemon is
One or multiple (more likely) of the above objectives

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 07:36

Rs_singh wrote:
NRao wrote:Prepare for India border row to escalate, Chinese strategists warn Beijing

Martial arts experts. Now:

NRao,

You’ll get a kick out of this article, specially the first paragraph.

https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/06/ ... adversary/

Rs_singh,

Thanks.

But, the vid in the following said that will happen in 2013 or slight before!!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&start=4200#p2443897

Reading a lot more on this topic, I am getting the picture that Indians, about 10 years ago, did all the analysis and indeed predicted - painting a broad picture - rather accurately the current situation. Ajit Doval seems to have done similar work too - 10ish years ago.

It was the MMS gov that failed (that vid addresses that topic - in specific) and to a lesser extent this gov too.

A number of observations, but will post just a few:

1) Start. Where does not matter - economy, SLOC, Tibet, SCS, anywhere
2) No bloody nose. Bloody the whole CCP
3) No rollback to April 2020. Rollback to pre-1950s
4) Forget appeasing the Chinese, They are two-bit nothing

These are the *findings* of *Indians*, nothing to do with me.

India - per the Gen. in that vid - is important only because of geography. North and South. Japan's Navy is important - again because of the geo situation. Yada, yada, yada.

I think China has done the world a favor.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 28 Jun 2020 07:46

fanne wrote:we can always blow up a bridge that is hard to make, then few more as times go by. Roads can be repaired fast, bridges, not so fast. The best timing to blow a bridge is, when their is EP over it.

I have been thinking about it. Send the SFF into tibet region and blow a couple of the bridges with some of the TSP explosives that we have captured. leave some remaining there as well and write some arrah hu akbar graffiti on the concrete pillars for added misdirection.

some TSP food wrappers and should be sufficient for couple of years of peace. I wonder how many of the bridges are marked for demolition by special forces if the Shisha hits the fan.

Obviously they can do the same here as well and also will likely know who did it, but we should ask for dosas and got for more dosa diplomacy.

This will also definitely include puting behind bars some of the jaichands in our media and NGO's

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 07:52

Hmmmm.....

Bridge collapses near India-China border, new one built within 5 days

One can count the number of days on the fingers (since it has become fashionable) of one hand.

BRO officials and local police monitoring the resumption of traffic after the construction of new Bailey bridge in Pithoragarh on Saturday. (HT Video)

The new bridge was constructed near the old one which had collapsed on June 22 after an overloaded trailer carrying an excavator tried to cross it despite several warnings from the BRO workers working near the spot. The bridge, crucial for supplying ration to the army and the ITBP men near the Indo-China border, ...............

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 28 Jun 2020 07:55

NRao wrote:Hmmmm.....

The new bridge was constructed near the old one which had collapsed on June 22 after an overloaded trailer carrying an excavator tried to cross it despite several warnings from the BRO workers working near the spot.

NRao,

10 yrs ago I was stuck in the sandbox taking the fun out of fundamentalism. So my history is a bit hazy, though I broadly agree with what you’re saying. CCP needs to stopped and stopped now. That being said, I’m sure it’ll be a long drawn out affair. Suddenly feels like it’s 1989 and the Soviet Union again.

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 28 Jun 2020 07:57

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/ ... ews-629727

is this already posted here?

Indian Army on Saturday deployed Akash air defence system at Line of Actual control in Ladakh. Even as India and China are holding rounds of discussion to de-escalate the situation at the LAC, India is not taking any chances and beefing up its security presence on the frontline.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2020 08:00

Karan M wrote:MRSAM was handed over to the IAF in August 2019. Its tests are complete.

IIRC, it was deployed after the Uri attack too though all trials hadn't been completed. In fact, trials had just begun, but quite successfully.

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 28 Jun 2020 08:10

SSridhar wrote:
Karan M wrote:MRSAM was handed over to the IAF in August 2019. Its tests are complete.
IIRC, it was deployed after the Uri attack though all trials hadn't been completed.

Did not realize IA and IAF both operate redundant assets. I’m guessing IAF is all AA and IA is all AD?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2020 08:24

Rs_singh wrote:Did not realize IA and IAF both operate redundant assets.

The MR-SAM is the land-based version of the long-range SAM (LRSAM or Barak-8) for the Navy. So, all three services use essentially the same with appropriate modifications.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 28 Jun 2020 08:27

SSridhar wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Anyone have a good explanation for China's desire to change the status quo? Why on earth did they start this. Their official claim is the road and base next to Aksai Chin. Is this the entire story. Is this some kind of message to show power and scare India from trying to reclaim Aksai Chin?
The Chinese always have multiple objectives.

To ‘Teach India a lesson’ as in 1962 or in Vietnam

To put India ‘in its place’, especially after c. 2008

Grab as much real-estate as possible during this Wuhan Corona virus time

Provide more buffer to the G219 Highway

Settle the border dispute by ‘force/deception’ to achieve larger goals [ c. 2035 & 2050 ]

Protect Gilgit-Baltistan – the Critical chokepoint for CPEC

To influence India’s strategic / tactical decisions (Quad, WHO)

Deflect attention from within to outside, especially India

Raise national fervor amidst Corona, Trade War, 5G, Huawei/ZTE, Hong Kong, Economy

Show to the rest of the world, especially the US & its allies, who the hegemon is

One or multiple (more likely) of the above objectives

What if.. the Chinese are completely satisfied to stay put at their claim areas and maintain a totally defensive posture.

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 28 Jun 2020 08:32

SSridhar wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:Did not realize IA and IAF both operate redundant assets.
The MR-SAM is the land-based version of the long-range SAM (LRSAM or Barak-8) for the Navy. So, all three services use essentially the same with appropriate modifications.

Hmm, likely same kill vehicle with different S and T radars.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2020 08:49

rajpa wrote:What if.. the Chinese are completely satisfied to stay put at their claim areas and maintain a totally defensive posture.

Point # 3. Salami slicing.
The new claim of the entire Galwan Valley is beyond their CCL

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Jun 2020 08:56

Rs_singh wrote:
Did not realize IA and IAF both operate redundant assets. I’m guessing IAF is all AA and IA is all AD?

From a need perspective, IAF needs SAMs for Air Defense over Indian territory (loosely speaking). IA needs SAMs to protect its mobile formations during operations against air interdiction.

Both have ordered MRSAM and also Akash.

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Jun 2020 08:58

nam wrote:
It would be a good surprise, if Israel sends across the ER version, which has got 150KM. Fundamentally Barak8 with a booster. Everything else remains the same.

Why ? Isn't it a jointly-developed missile and the propulsion developed by DRDO and missile manufactured by BDL ? What should Israel send ?

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Jun 2020 09:04

Was this reported here ?
2 more deaths in Galwan: Soldiers building bridge drown in river accidents

2 more deaths in Galwan: Soldiers building bridge drown in river accidents
The families of the two soldiers said they were told that the two men were part of a team involved in “constructing a bridge” in the area.

“We have been told that a bridge was being constructed, and Saleem was part of that team,” said Khan’s uncle, Budhdin Khan. “He was in a boat which overturned, and he died,” he said.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 28 Jun 2020 09:17

IAF watching Chinese bases sure of matching air power
IAF tracking PLAAF fighter and bomber deployments at Kashkar, Hotan, Shigatase, Lhasa...
Believes it has superiority in aircraft numbers as well as quality.
Concern about PLA Rocket Forces attacking IAF bases with missiles but contingency plans are in place for that.
IAF also aware of a wide array of Chinese SAM's including the S400 which the IAF will have to face in the event of widespread war.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 28 Jun 2020 09:25

rajpa wrote:What if.. the Chinese are completely satisfied to stay put at their claim areas and maintain a totally defensive posture.

China showed signs of squatting on their new salami slice only in Pangong...
As of now, India showed no signs of backing down from restoration of pre-April 2020 status quo...

Either one side backs down or it will be war... I don't see any other way...
Let's wait and watch...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2020 09:32

If we look at where we are today from 1834 when Gen. Zorawar Singh captured Ladakh,
Johnson-Ardagh Line (1895)
McCartney-McDonald Line (1899)
Johnson-Ardagh Line (1940)
Johnson-Ardagh Line (1947)
Chinese Claim Line (1959)
LAC (1962)
LoP (1976)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 10:21

India-China: Britons demand West intervene to STOP Beijing aggression - 'They must learn'

Nothing beyond the following

With that in mind, Express.co.uk asked, "Should the West take action to stop Chinese incursions in India?"

In response, 3,285 people out of 5,400 agreed that the West should stop China's apparent aggression on the border.

A further 1,945 said 'no' while just 170 were not sure.

"The Western nations need to form a concerted financial response to China, perhaps tacitly to start with, by building our own manufacturing and other facilities to replace those in China.

"Without the West's money, China will be hampered in its expansion plans."

A second said: "Sanctions from all countries are now required."

A third said: "Nobody wants to see World War 3 happen, but China has become very quickly grown bossy and bolshie?

"China needs to be pulled up a bit, they have to learn that regardless of might and strength everybody suffers if they start a war.

"Stop trading with them, hit them where it will hurt, they might soon learn the benefit of trade when the coffers dry up.

"World domination will NOT be that simple Xi."

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 10:24

My my. Chinese are sooo good at construction.

Or do the sats need a new lens?

From: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-c ... ac-2253302

williams · Post by **williams** » 28 Jun 2020 10:33

So it looks like this is another salami-slice, then dig-in and squat operation. Now there will be years of negotiation until the next cycle. We need to reverse to salami slice in a different area. I would suggest do it somewhere in Sikkim.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 28 Jun 2020 10:38

Rs_singh wrote:
Deans wrote:
Small groups of Tibetans (our SFF) dropped near the G-219 highway (all along its length) can play havoc with their supply convoys.
Transport aircraft flying at low altitude will be shielded by the Himalayas for most of their journey and will be exposed for only a few minutes
when their paratroopers are disgorged near the G-219. The risk is further reduced if they fly over Nepal.
Deans,

Deployment of SF for sustained ops across the AA is fantastical to say the least. You can have limited interdiction ops for particular C and C targets or special transports. Offensive air ops are the one possible answer for continued SR denial to EN. Fire assaults are another. SF is definitely not.

RS ji, A response to Larry's earlier comment and yours:
Its not about destroying a road (where damage is minimal) or sustained operations. What I had in mind was for e.g. destroying a small bridge or tunnel, that then creates a bottleneck for vehicles, making them vulnerable to an airstrike. I've actually done a lengthy google earth check of vulnerable spots to justify the idea in my mind. Also, a single SF operation against a convoy, would result in the diversion of a disproportionately large force to guard convoys, carry out recon of likely ambush spots, station quick reaction teams along the 3000 + km of highway. The same logic applies to highly vulnerable rail lines. I've suggested the use of Tibetan SFs (what they were set up for in the first place) because they have a chance of blending in with the local population after their action - reducing the need to exfiltrate them in the middle of combat operations. Also more likely to volunteer what is, as you rightly mention, a mission with a low probability of return.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Jun 2020 11:07

Guddu wrote:I think if the Chinese mass aircraft in Skardu as per some reports, this gives us a great opportunity to make a break for Gilgit Baltistan. At that point China has to decide if they want to fight Pak's war. Our forces are currently amassed in the guise of responding to China. My guess is China will not fight Pak's war. Infact, another outcome might be that Taiwan declares independence at the same time, leaving China with egg on its face.

Chinese can mass aircraft at Sargodha at Skardu you can mass only 10-12 aircraft for regular operations, given the topography, it will take years to develop fuel supplies, ammo storage facilities, power , barracks, fire engines , spare parts etc. Its not just a case of Chinese aircraft landing on the plateau airfield park in the open and immediately become operational. In fact if you see google maps, there are 8 air shelters, they seem too small for flanker size and I doubt even F-16 can be parked there, its more Jf-17, F-7 Mirage III/V type aircraft which will fit into those pens, but the rest of infratstructure is minimal. and given the Airfield is on a plateau not easy to expand.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2020 11:09

Any thoughts on networks and EW?