Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby davidn » 06 Mar 2004 13:25

most major exercises seem to take place in the Western sector. Are troops and formations from the other commands such as Eastern, Northern etc. brought in to give them some experience too, or are the formations all Western Command ones?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby JCage » 06 Mar 2004 15:59

The new doctrine does not believe in dividing the forces into defensive or attack formations. India’s three Strike Corps — Mathura-based I Corps, Ambala-based II Corps and Bhopal-based XXI Corps — will be there only for training purposes. :whine: :whine: :whine:

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rudra » 06 Mar 2004 19:26

no need to whine. obviously the corps HQ will remain as-is for a placeholder but a lot of teethy tools will find their way permanently into these eight gepanzerte Schlachtgruppe poised right on the border. ;)

this is going to drive PA batnuts. their
war strategy has been to
- get a 2 week warning time before any major IA move to deploy their resources
- get 2 weeks to work the phones with DC, london and beijing asking for help
- get 2 weeks to brandish nuclear threats in the media.
- redeploy PAF 75% to protect northern heartland

look for a lot of "new" unabhängige gepanzerte Brigaden drawn out from strike corps and attached to holding corps.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Joeqp » 06 Mar 2004 19:49

This is a question that I always pondered: why were the strike corps located in Bhopal and Mathura, when closer locations (like Udaipur, Ratlam, etc.) were available?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Mandeep » 06 Mar 2004 19:53

Originally posted by Prasenjit Medhi:
>>How about Earnest Resolve or some thing like that in sanskrit?

What is so Hinduised about 'Celestial Weapon'?

Besides, Driddh Sankalp wouldnt sound so cool ..
Prasenjit, aren't you from Mayo ?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Mandeep » 06 Mar 2004 20:00

Originally posted by Manavendra:
This is a question that I always pondered: why were the strike corps located in Bhopal and Mathura, when closer locations (like Udaipur, Ratlam, etc.) were available?
That is because of availability of cantt space and more importantly training areas.

In any case Strike Corps assets are located in places like Ambala, Patiala, Bathinda, Pathankot too

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Raj Malhotra » 06 Mar 2004 20:56

Nitin

this seems like a good thing. a move towards permanent mobilization. :D

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rajiv Lather » 06 Mar 2004 22:00

This 8 battle group thing (with no holding corps) does not make sense. It cannot work the way it has been put out in the report, is totally impractical and therefore will never be implemented. The reasons:

1. Who or what will protect the heavily populated areas of Panjab and Jammu region? Are the battle groups stationed in this part to be used as battle rams and leave this area exposed to a counter strike?

2. If there are no holding corps who or what is going to do counter insurgency operations in Kashmir and north east? What about internal security against covert operations in critical areas of the country?

3. This thing is so Pakistan centric, what will happen if we need to use our armed forces in other theaters and against other enemies?

4. Does this means we do not require holding corps on our China border?

5. With the 8 battle groups perpetually mobilised on or near the border, will they not act as sitting targets for surprise air attack and/or pre-emptive tactical nuclear strikes? And in such cases where will reserves come from?

6. How can the Navy in its present shape provide any help to these battle groups as suggested by the article? What Navy fighters? Where are they?

7. All this sounds like Indian Army changing its aims and operations under constraints imposed on us by Pakistan. (I don't think this is the case.)

Rajiv Lather

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby RayC » 06 Mar 2004 22:51

Lather,

Prima facie, an interesting point.

Mayve its based on some long term political strategy? ;)I wouldn't know.

Worth a debate.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Mandeep » 06 Mar 2004 23:11

The article is obviously based IMHO on, short-term political strategy ie winning the General Elections for the current govt.

In any case, in the absence of details can we take this article very seriously ?

Lets debate, which is obviously the intention of this article, to provoke a debate but not take it very, very seriously in that it does not reflect official policy.

I'm sure we on BRF don't realise how seriously our pontifications are taken by the powers that be.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby srai » 07 Mar 2004 00:45

Originally posted by Rajiv Lather:
...
1. Who or what will protect the heavily populated areas of Panjab and Jammu region? Are the battle groups stationed in this part to be used as battle rams and leave this area exposed to a counter strike?
Battle groups are not strike crops per se. From what I understood, they'll have elements of holding/strike formations plus intergrated IAF/IN where applicable.

Also, remember that the strategy doesn't call for deep penetration ... it is optimized for intense firepower on a very swallow and narrow front ... for a rapid and massive destruction of enemy concentrated areas and supply chain.

2. If there are no holding corps who or what is going to do counter insurgency operations in Kashmir and north east? What about internal security against covert operations in critical areas of the country?
That's the reason for raising of the paramilitary RR and AR units specifically to deal with CI in the rural areas, and the new raising of the CP force for policing the urban areas.

3. This thing is so Pakistan centric, what will happen if we need to use our armed forces in other theaters and against other enemies?
On the contary, the 8 battle groups with IAF/IN integration provides much more flexibility in how IAF (armed forces) will be able to conduct its warefare. The IN involvment hints at the possibility of being able to project power beyond Pakistan (i.e. around the Indian Ocean rim).

5. With the 8 battle groups perpetually mobilised on or near the border, will they not act as sitting targets for surprise air attack and/or pre-emptive tactical nuclear strikes? And in such cases where will reserves come from?
I think this is your assumption ... I would be very surprised if IA plans to place all the 8 battle groups near the border with Pakistan is actually valid.

6. How can the Navy in its present shape provide any help to these battle groups as suggested by the article? What Navy fighters? Where are they?
You have to remember that things are not in place right now as this is a paradigm shift in the armed forces thinking ... that is why you've the joint commander conferences to discover and synergize what force structure is needed and plan the appropriate acquisition program by the 3 services.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Katare » 07 Mar 2004 03:24

This is very confusing.......if these groups are permanently deployed won't Pakistan do the same by deploying some of it’s forces. Don’t you think it would be expensive and reduce threshold for war and increase casualties in peace time due to skirmishes that are bound to happen?

If they (the 8 BG) are not deployed than how is this different than what we have now?

How is it a cold start? Would that mean as soon as PM says “go” one or more of these groups will attack and rest of the holding and attack formation start mobilization on both side? Who ever gets to the border faster will have upper hand (initiative/first movers advantage) not the one who is stronger?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Vriksh » 07 Mar 2004 04:40

the days of IA being on the defensive are over. The PA and TSPians have forever prided themselves as being able to attack Indian territory.

If the IA now feels that TSPians are using offensive fire to get some jihadis in, they can very quickly and effectively use overwhelming arty support to quell any such attempt. Destruction of jihadi camps in POK and in Punjab/Sindh etc can now be ordered in hours instead of days. That gives the TSPians less room for manouver.

It also leaves the TSPians a nagging fear that their forward posts can/will be taken over if they don't keep themselves. The border peace is being held not because of the TSPians want peace but by the Guns of Kargil being able to enforce the peace as their menacing barrels allow our men to stop the ground war against jihadis unhindered.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby John_Doe » 07 Mar 2004 04:50

Originally posted by shankar:
The border peace is being held not because of the TSPians want peace but by the Guns of Kargil being able to enforce the peace as their menacing barrels allow our men to stop the ground war against jihadis unhindered.
Hear hear!! Clearly no one in India who has a brain and sense of history is impressed by TSP claiming to want peace. I have always said - we must ditch any semblance of any kind of Gujral docrine and put the fear of God into our neighbours if we want them to behave and we are definitely going that way.

It seems the IA has come up with a doctrine to comprehensively destroy TSP's army with overwhelming force without needing to even enter TSP territory thereby denying TSP the excuse to use nukes. The PA will wither and die under the fire and brimstone of Indian artillery before they can even look at the border. We have overwhelming superiority over them in Navy and Air force. Now Army too if we can use the Army's formidable firepower with utmost efficiency. This doctrinal change will save the lives of Thousands of Indian troops in the future and demolish the PA and Paki infrastructure like we have never seen before.

Good job!

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rudra » 07 Mar 2004 04:51

exactly, squeezing their room for manouver is going on at all levels
-- giant overmatch in tech & firepower in progress
-- mngmt of their nuke arsenal outsourced to usa
-- ability to inflict severe punishment in 2 days rather than 22 -- this concept.
-- giant overmatch in economy makes every world economy line up for our welfare.
-- J&K fencing + sensors

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Arun_S » 07 Mar 2004 06:00

OK me thinks following as the graded escaltion path.

First punitive area destruction on one or more front within 60 Km from border. Using big guns, MRLS, Missiles (aka Prithvi, Brahmos, Alfa) and IAF.

Second punitive commoand & high value target destruction on one or more front within 300 Km from border using battle field missiles (aka Prithvi, Brahmos, Alfa) and IAF.

Third punitive area destruction and occupation on one or more front within 60 Km from border eariler destroyed is step#1.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby RayC » 07 Mar 2004 06:49

Unless one knows the location, composition and the command and control structure of the battle groups, one really cannot understand how and how far they will go 'striking hard' or otherwise.

Also, what is the inter se 'connection' with the Strike Corps us essential to know. Obviously, these Corps would not be just hanging around for cosmetic value.

Anybody, any idea?

Right now, whatever the open sources are revealing gives no clue excepting making it sound as some thing fab and exciting.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Kanu » 08 Mar 2004 03:12

Star News has a report on the IAF exercise in Pokhran. It said that some of the bombs and missiles missed their targets but on the whole it was good.

They had some really good footage. M2Ks, Su-30's, refueling tankers with M2Ks etc. You name it, some big explosions as well.

Just saw it like 45 mins ago in Star News UK, keep your eyes open for it.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Kuttan » 08 Mar 2004 03:42

The trouble with these concepts is still that they are centered on large numbers of infantry marching (ok, driving?) across defended borders.

If you look at recent American operations, there has been virtually NO instance of direct assault on a defended frontline. The surviving SHaheeds of International Terrorism returned to Pakistan from the Shomali Plain, battered, robbed and buggered by their Afghan brehtren in the Khyber Pass, but shattered inside by the failure to ever get a chance to aim a weapon at an American.

Also, the political excuse is cited for not capturing and holding territory. There is an alternative: cause collapse of the administration over huge areas. Deny, say, all of Sindh to the Paki administration. In this scenario, airbases and anti-aircraft defenses would be almost solely the initial targets - followed by direct attack on Corps HQs, etc. In the past, I suspect that there was some kind of unwritten agreement that "gentlemen" don't attack each other's senior officers. That must be considered outdated in the age of the cruise missile, nuclear bomb and the terrorist.

In J&K, there have been far too many attacks on immobile C^3 assets inside India, with Indian response appearing to consist of blasting some Paki posts manned by half-starved conscripts - or "dual-use" houses etc.

Now we hear of Soviet-style "shock&Awe" descended from the Zhukov march across the Oder river in the Battle of Berlin. These kill far more civilians than junta leaders.

I don't see deep-penetration weapons such as cruise missiles, anti-radiation missiles and helicopter-borne strike forces being put to proper use, Maybe because we don't want to give those tactics away? They sure worked in East Pakistan, didn't they?

Fundamentally, 200 cheap, disposable UAVs, each carrying a heat-seeking anti-tank missile, can put an end to 100 field artillery guns, after maybe 1 to 2 shots from each gun. See flash - blast source from 2 or 3 miles out. Each blast will probably kill 3 or more soldiers as well. So this does not seem like a really smart way to fight limited wars of the future.

Starting in 1999, I've been arguing that the proper response to terror attacks is to hit military infrastructure with missiles or air strikes - each attack degrading the military's ability to rule the civilian population. Also to hit terrorist camps with missiles, ignoring collateral damage in that case (message: clean up your own neighborhood or your neighborhood will be turned into a parking lot). In the case of each attack, announce immediately that "retaliation" would spark major hostilities.

10 terrorist attacks - I count each murder of a civilian as a terror attack - and 10 major Paki bridges / military HQs, expensive radar stations, railheads or terrorist Offices in downtown Muzzfarabad get knocked out. This sort of response is sure to spark outrage directed AGAINST the Paki military and the jihad - a force-multiplier. Simply shelling a border village or post does nothing of the sort. You gotta make the RAPE feel the bruises on their behinds.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby deWalker » 08 Mar 2004 03:54

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
exactly, squeezing their room for manouver is going on at all levels
-- giant overmatch in tech & firepower in progress
So, assuming TSP is not nook-nood, what is to prevent it from moving the redline to match this?

In fact, what prevents them from saying, "The next time a pebble is tossed from India to Pakistan, we'll go nook 'em up".

Treating TSP as an entity with a logical thought process will be a big mistake.

D/

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rudra » 08 Mar 2004 05:25

...and thats where the plantation owner (usa)
comes in...without an indian armd div on the outskirts of 'pindi, that aint no redline there buoy...back to the cotton fields buoy.

it suits us perfectly well if the border is quiet
and no a pebble is tossed.

if there is peace - we increase the economic distance 100 furlongs every day and reduce them to further inconsequence.

if there is war we slap them around for a couple weeks at minimal losses to ourselves. reduce the PAF/PN/al-khalid inventory.

win-win, equal-equal, fair skin-fair skin!

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby shiv » 08 Mar 2004 07:05

The Pakistani military (+political thinking) mindset has changed from the old Paki:India = 6:1 and "Hindu morale will break if given a hard blow at the right place" type of planning to one of fear and defence.

An article linked in the Paki thread yesterday spoke of "Pakistani right" to maintain a deterrence against India. They are now saying that the Pakisnai military is aimed at keeping India from taking over Pakistan. The "latest" twist came as conventional forces became difficult to maintain - so Pakis said that they would use nukes soon to keep India out.

From this viewpoint the publicity and public statements that have come out of Divya Astra seem aimed far beyond the military significance. I am sure the Indian army, like the other branches and like other armed forces constantly reviews its threat perceptions, its readiness and its ability to respond - but the statements made after a mere 90 minute demonstration seem aimed at keeping Pakis on their toes and on tenterhooks in fact.

Public statements have been made that maximum destruction will be wreaked on an adversary without allowing the nuclear line to be crossed. That is a signal to the Pakis that their nookulear bums will not necessarily help them. In the current geopilitical scenario it becomes very difficult for Pakistan to renew its nookulear threat and say "OK - if you do Divya Astra to us we will lower our nookulear threshold further"

If you ask me there is a deliberate diplomatic iron fist/kid glove policy being used that is calculated to put maximum stress on the most aggressive, most Islamist and greatest money grabbing sections of the Paki military. As long as the Paki military aims to "keep up" with India there will be constant reminders of hinduized-sanskritized forces threatening Pakistan. But any talk of friendship and trade will be met with an equal or greater response.

Not that 'Divya Astra" has come in the middle of events like:

1) Visit of ABV and others - the hated "brahmin-bania" high caste muslim hating and killing hindu fundamentalist leadership visting Pakistan

2) PMO intervention to force India cricket tour to go ahead

3) Pakistani trade fair in Delhi

There is a deliberate policy in play to demolish the make-believe world of hatred that has been built up in Pakistan. I have noted in another discussion of how 'islamism" has been used to show a "friendly face" while advancing, and a "deadly face" when opposed. There is a deliberate mirror imaging of that here - with a twist. Friendship and tolerance are met with a welcoming smile, and opposition is met with deliberate hinduized threats.

Divya Astra has to be seen in that light. Sorry to digress. There is a civilizational significance in this that really must not be duscussed in this thread.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby ehsmang » 08 Mar 2004 07:46

As a layman, I think the Army's new operating philosophy is predicated on the fact that there will be sustained spending on modernisation,upgradation over the next 5-10 years which will allow implementation of such ideas ( which may seem fanciful as of today).

The differential of conventional forces between India/Pak will theoritically widen so much that Pakis will think n times before resorting to a conventional response.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rudra » 08 Mar 2004 08:23

the new non-lapsable modernization fund is an indication.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby NRao » 08 Mar 2004 08:28

Remote dismembering.

If the idea is to destroy certain areas. And, in addition not to hold on to any territory. Then it can only mean that Indian Govt, on command, will create an environment for locals to take over control over the territory that has been isolated by selective destruction.

What could be the greatest distance at which this amalgamted Indian force can cause substantial destruction with a minimal of Indian losses - certainly no ACs from IAF or IN? Can such a force isolate Sindh?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rudra » 08 Mar 2004 08:46

the americans in iraq called it "Thunder Run" - a combined arms task force makes a run through hostile territory shooting, yellin and demoralizing anything in their way...often right thru the middle of hostile towns and withdraws after a while. the day1 walkabout thru baghdad intl airport and the entry into presidential palace to setup shop in middle of saddams backyard are other examples.

the implied slap on H&D brought out many uday fidayeen to give battle - mowed down by M1s with little losses.

now apply this to the outsized west punjab-pathan concept of manhood, jihadi zest and "standing up to indian hegemony" , spit-n-polish pride and u have a vulnerable situation.

Can Pak afford to utilize military sense and withdraw behind Lahore if faced with difficult situation ? what if we used sats/UAV to locate their prepared positions and went after a 20km front with 600 large guns + WLR for 2 days ?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby JaiS » 08 Mar 2004 10:54

Originally posted by Kanu:
Star News has a report on the IAF exercise in Pokhran. It said that some of the bombs and missiles missed their targets but on the whole it was good.

They had some really good footage. M2Ks, Su-30's, refueling tankers with M2Ks etc. You name it, some big explosions as well.

Just saw it like 45 mins ago in Star News UK, keep your eyes open for it.
Saw that exercise on NDTV yesterday. I must say, it gave me immense pleasure to see the MKI fly the way it did, absolutely awesome footage. It was mentioned during the report that of all the missiles fired, an R-73 missed it's target.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Gudakesa » 08 Mar 2004 12:09

narayanan,
I think that in the present context, it would be difficult to carry out attacks on C^3 installations in Pakistan of the nature that you are recommending. This is because they would probably cross the threshold required for the Pakistanis to use nuclear weapons (assuming that they still have them). I do agree that in the long term, what you are saying makes more sense (at least to me who is uninformed in these matters), especially given that Pakistan is not our only threat.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby daulat » 08 Mar 2004 15:44

actually, TSP lowering its red line threshold may not be a bad outcome - will have Unkil and others more worried and lean on them more heavily; thereby reducing if not eliminating its utility. and at the same time, if IA has not crossed the border, then where is the causus belli?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Vick » 08 Mar 2004 17:50

Regarding the new concept of the "battle groups" with each having the capability of rapid manuever, high fire power, multirole (offensive and defensive) capabilities, I wonder if the IA and IAF forsee a significant role for the LCH in this new battle group concept.

IMO, the attack helo is one of the best in terms of tactical mobility and high firepower. I hope the IA and/or the IAF (whoever wins the terf war) has a requirement of LCHs in the hundreds.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Vick » 08 Mar 2004 18:16

Here is something which might be relevant to our discussion of India battle groups:

Italy To Work With U.K. on EU Battle Groups
By TOM KINGTON, ROME

Italy is set to work with the United Kingdom on the concept for 1,500-strong European battle groups announced last month by the United Kingdom, France and Germany, officials here said March 5.

“In addition to preparing significant battle group contributions on a national basis, the two countries will work together closely to encourage the formation of effective battle groups from the EU as a whole, through the provision of expertise and advice,” said a joint declaration released after Italian and U.K. prime ministers Silvio Berlusconi and Tony Blair met in Rome on March 5.

The battle group concept was launched by Germany, France and the United Kingdom last month following previous planning at the EU level for a larger 60,000-strong rapid-reaction force.



At the time, Italian politicians expressed surprise at the initiative. However, on Feb. 19, Italian Defense Minister Antonio Martino told Parliament that Italy was ready to participate.

In their joint declaration, Berlusconi and Blair said the new battle groups were designed “to increase the EU’s military rapid-response capability, principally to conduct autonomous operations at short notice in response to requests from the U.N. and capable of operating under a Chapter VII mandate.”

The declaration also stated that Italy and the United Kingdom would seek to ensure the start “at the end of this year or early next year, of an ESDP [European Security and Defense Policy peacekeeping] mission to Bosnia-Herzegovina, including a military component based on the agreed Berlin Plus arrangements.”


Obviously, the EU force has the primary requirement of strategic deployment as it is not intended to be a continental force. The Indian battle groups would have tactical mobility and semi-strategic mobility (along the Indo-Pak border) as their main mobility requirements. I am wondering if in a few years (depending how the western front looks) if the Indian planners are thinking about giving these battle groups regional strategic mobility? Already most of the pieces are there for that like the ro-ro ships (not in adequate numbers) and largish number of heavy air transports (again not in adequate numbers).

In the future putting investments into these areas will allow these battle groups to regionally deployable. I wonder if this is real intention into creating the battle groups? They can be tasked to be Pak centric or if required have a more regional role. Hmm... well, the cat is among the pigeons n'est pas?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Sunil » 08 Mar 2004 18:24

Would it be fair to say that the emphasis is gradually shifting (over the past four years 2000-2004) in the IA from mobilization to operational maneuver.

The idea of needing to defend x,y,z occurs if there is a Pakistani countervailing force stashed away somewhere.

The lesson of Gulf-2 is that maneuver is what counts.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Vick » 08 Mar 2004 18:35

Not just Gulf-2 but also in house lessons like Poorna Vijay and the seminal geo-political and military experiences of Kargil and the mobilization have been steps in this direction. IMO, we are witnessing a transition in IA's doctrinal changes.

The IA it seems is adapting its doctrine from the set piece chess model to a more manuever oriented rapid reaction (cold start is an euphemism) oriented force which can either be tasked to taking care of Pak and/or being ready to be deployed elsewhere in the future as well. At least that's what I see in the tea leaves.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby daulat » 08 Mar 2004 18:37

i think that the air-land battle concept has grown into a more complex level as demonstrated by GWII. i.e. large static or 'linearly deployable' forces are not as important as the ability to form, reform and deploy rapidly based on high levels of situational awareness, control and the ability to concentrate huge levels of firepower. In the IA context, the ability to 'manage' a sector in any offensive or defensive mode without deep mobilisation, coupled with having options other than territorial dominance is what is being mooted. pre-req's for this would be a major technological advantage in battle-space management and naturally overwhelming firepower and a highly flexible organisation with high levels of training

the IA is catching up with NATO level capabilities and adding some of the old warsaw pact shock-awe features...

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Sunil » 08 Mar 2004 19:04

Okay I am not too good with the jargon but here is what I think:

1) Take a place (any old place will do), pick a time (day or night).

2) Plant a 100 155 mm arty pieces within range of it at Hhour minus one.

3) Shoot first at Hhour and ask questions later.

Let the enemy think of ways to respond to that.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby RayC » 08 Mar 2004 19:22

If I may say deploying artillery at H minus one is very difficult given the deployment time required for guns. Its not just plonking guns. A lot of other things take place too.

Further, they have to come from some place. That deployment will give away the hand unless deployed all over the border to concentrate at the correct place and at the correct time.

With today's surveillance equipment available with all, the principle of war 'Surprise'is very difficult to achieve.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby daulat » 08 Mar 2004 19:55

so piecing things together, it would seem then that there is a shortage in the IA of a modern armed helicopter that can do the robust fighting recce as well as kick the crap out of al khalids and friends on demand. as RayC said, where are the Apaches? I am not sure that Dhruv and derivatives are in the same mould for the job? what happened to stories of the new Yak chopper for the IA/IAF?

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Rudra » 08 Mar 2004 19:56

But Pak doesnt have UAVs and realtime IMint to peek into india at night.

the new deployment pattern would relocate a lot
of gear much nearer to the border than what it is
today. shouldnt be difficult to hide limited movement of guns and ammo during the night.

also, suppose they know if it , what are they going to do about it if we deploy MLRS + WLR to target their counter-fire in a few seconds ?
and jam their WLR too. (they only have a few precious sets, we can make as many as needed now that BEL-WLR is ordered).

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby venkat_r » 08 Mar 2004 20:15

Especially in the India-Pak scenario, the change has been from the quick result oriented battle to long drawn out quick pockets of fights in the future.

The skirmishes are going to be fast and quick, before the international opinion or the diplomacy take over, but these are going to be not the real victory or defeats in any war. They are going to be just skirmishes.

So destruction of C3I assets of pakistan is not on the menu. It is the destruction of the local battle groups and destroy and demoralise the troups waiting to do an offensive. The loss incurred by the enemy should be prohibitive enough for him not to think of commiting the same act again. Such skirmishes are going to happen at many places on the border, is the Indian way of raising the stakes by couple of notches.

This is expensive peace, but necessary one. The psy effect this will have on the enemy is heavy. Also, this is the best incremental way India builds up its forces. Imagine, 20 years down the line, even if someone fires across the border of India, that post, that area will be "sanitised" of any unwanted elements within minutes - though many might argue about that existance of that border itself.

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Re: Exercise Divya Astra: Shock & Awe

Postby Sunil » 08 Mar 2004 20:27

RayC,

I am trying to say something without saying it.

Yes - I agree there is a lot more to it but what if that were to change somehow.

In my mind's eye I see someone sitting at BP704 pondering the following questions:

1) An MPDR battery south of Sadiqabad just picked up something. Where is the enemy going to strike? Here or at some location just south of BP1175.

2) Can I really handle the defence of Sukkur? What am I supposed to do if the bridge at Sukkur is lost? How does the XII come to my rescue?

3) I thought the Indians are incompetent, but then where did the Ghotki bridgehead just go?

4) Do i disperse the 24 Armd Div at Malir? or do I hold it in reserve until someone in the FO can actually get something done in the White House? If I disperse them, can I guarentee that I will be able to get them to regroup?

I can't begin to imagine what the guy at DGK will be thinking.


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